vpFREE2 Forums

VP versus SLOTS

#41

[His thoughts after discovering an CA Indian casino used "funny"
cards for a blackjack game].

Bill:

You might want to do some research on the marked cards example. My
memory is shaky here, but I do recall a proficient card counter
(perhaps a team of card counter) lost a considerable amount of money
in the blackjack game and discovered about the cards being a non-
standard deck of cards. I do believe the individual had a Ph.D in a
hard science and also has created a blackjack software (more like an
update of a DOS version into Windows platform along with more bells,
whistles, and enhancements). Or perhaps there were two such cases
using mark cards in CA casinos.

But here's what you should take away from this. If a casinos wants
to cheat, there are generally tell-tale signs. For example, the pay-
off is too good for a video poker machine, say 11-6 JOB. Or perhaps
in the BJ game, the rules were a little too liberal. I believe the
purpose of cheating is for the casino to get an extra edge from
the "knowledgeable" players. I keep asking myself why would a *CA
casino** cheat VP when the average player gives up 3-6% in ev based
on short-coin, or hunch plays. Or worse, the optimal return for the
VP game is 93-96%? Also, I believe the size of the casino may have
something to do with it as I suspect smaller casinos have a greater
incentive to cheat.

Just think about it. It's one thing if the casino had horrible BJ
rules and cheats (here, I would argue the players would lose too
much money too fast). It's another is the casino had great BJ rules
and cheats (here, I would argue the card counters kept blaming their
losses on negative flux, and believing they had an advantage,
continue to play and lose large sums of money).

Good luck.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

#42

Fordscks wrote:

But here's what you should take away from this. If a casinos wants

to cheat, there are generally tell-tale signs<

The people that think all the Indian casinos have rigged games are the same type of people who believe Lyndon Johnson paid to have President Kennedy killed. Are not many of the California casinos run by major gaming companies such as Harrahs, Stations, Caesars, etc? Sure ,these huge public companies are going to take IGT machines and modify them in order not to pay a RF. What a laugh!

Possibly, instances of past cheating exists, but now the new Indian casinos are packed with customers, pay no taxes and have for the most part poor VP pay tables. They are taking a serious amount of business away from Nevada, especially Reno. They are making bundles of money without cheating.

I for one believe Bob Dancer in his reply. IGT machines are not being modified in any way, anywhere.

glenbob

···

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#43

Musta been awhile ago Joe as both counts are wrong. I ran across
John's 1st Complete Guide to Gambling in '68. It came out
in '61. "On Cards" came out just after WW2 and 1945's "On Dice" but
neither mention Bingo. About 10 years ago my son got hold and
wouldn't give back so I bought the 2nd ed, '75 update. Much of the
errors cited is in that he could only use mechanical caculators and
pencil and paper for most basic calculations he'd done but were
fairly close enough for decent use and he WAS first. The BJ trouble
stems from two differing stories from the 2 editions. First, while
JS was at Habana Hilton in '58 a trio of counters took 3 casinos for
$250,000 and actually set up a $1 million cards face up freeze out
to prove it when the Biltmore casino chickened out and they left
town. He describes the card counting bunch who awaited until 1/3
cards left in a 4 deck shoe and bet large, like split $1K kings to
win both $2K bets. John also devotes a chapter to card counting
procedures he advised worked. Then when Thorp published the beat BJ
stuff he claims to have played with him in Reno in'64, he knew
nothing of BJ basics,but was researching with 2 others. Thorp's 2
partners were the folks from Havana and admitted bribing the dealer
to John. Sorta odd, having it both ways. His belief, "BJ is the only
casino game... in which during play odds sometimes favor the player
rather than the house."

On bingo, "When run by charitable orgs,Bingo is relatively
free of the crookedness that accompanies many other forms of
gambling." John really liked bingo and believed it did more for
religious charity than anything since maybe when they ran out of
cross splinters back in 1822 or so. His actual cheats section
describes how players cheat and in this instance do not cheat the
house, but the player who would have won. Tho play sheets are
possible in almost limitless numbers,(try 111,007,923,832,370,565)
play sets use lesser numbers like 3000 and 1000 often covers some
sets well. A sorted case full are pulled from when a series is
determined and next number.. BINGO! That's one way it's done.
And Padre or Sister's not the criminal.

In '68 while stuck in Itazuke AB Japan for 6 mo of Pueblo Crisis,
we'd fly 2 hours in the morn toward N Korea to see how they'd
respond with electronics, record it and go home for rest of the day.
I read a LOT and the little base library had an unread '61 ed. It
opened my eyes to reduction of odds so when the library closed down
I kept the book. The 2nd ed with the '64 Thorp and Havana updates,
were odd as we're now aware, Thorp was correct even if a lousy
player in John's eyes. He DID have an ego! CD

···

- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Joe Pucek <joepucek@y...> wrote:

   30 or so years ago there was a gambling authority
named Scarne. I read, perhaps even bought, his classic
book: "Scarne on Cards" Shortly before he died, as I
understand he was largely discredited since he
publicly claimed card counting at BJ was a scam or
something. However, I remember one of the things in
his book. He said that organized bingo games, such as
those in churches run by :"professional" bingo groups
were 100% crooked!!
>
> You know, that's one thing I appreciate about Bingo
> (believe it or
> not). The odds are usually bad, of course, but at
> least 10-12 people
> win in every 1 hour session, and you are there to
> actually witness it
> (sometimes they are friends), plus its virtually
> impossible for the
> casino to cheat! That applies to Indian Bingo too.
> They make a ton
> of money without cheating.
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus

#44

Bill, jus 50#/card. Mus be sumpin durin breaks; is a co-ed gp.--CD

···

- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

tomflush wrote:

> oh- 69

snipped everything else

What is that supposed to mean?

Bill

#45

Much of the errors in his BJ advice were because he didn't know
what he was talking about. He claimed that Thorp's strategies
were seriously flawed, a claim that simply does not stand up under
close scrutiny. Anyone who has written their own program to
independently verify BJ basic strategy has reached this same
conclusion. Scarne's BJ advice simply sucked.

···

On Friday 16 January 2004 12:25 am, crazydonconcepts wrote:

Much of the
errors cited is in that he could only use mechanical caculators and
pencil and paper for most basic calculations he'd done but were
fairly close enough for decent use and he WAS first.

#46

the same type of people who believe Lyndon Johnson paid to have
President Kennedy killed. Are not many of the California casinos run
by major gaming companies such as Harrahs, Stations, Caesars, etc?
Sure ,these huge public companies are going to take IGT machines and
modify them in order not to pay a RF. What a laugh!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, glen bob <glenbob@y...> wrote:
  

The people that think all the Indian casinos have rigged games are

*********************************************************************

No. I believe LBJ had nothing to do with it. It was a mafia hit.

The California Gambling Commission lists 53 tribal casinos currently
operation in the State. The American Casino Guide (California)
identified only two out of these 53 as being run by outside
companies: Rincon (Harrah's), and Thunder Valley (Stations Casino).
Can you identify others?
*********************************************************************

Possibly, instances of past cheating exists, but now the new

Indian casinos are packed with customers, pay no taxes and have for
the most part poor VP pay tables. They are taking a serious amount
of business away from Nevada, especially Reno. They are making
bundles of money without cheating.
*********************************************************************

I can think of four reasons before breakfast why some Tribal casinos
cheat:
1) It's not against the law.
2) CA tribal Casinos do not have to make public their win or their
payback percentages, and there is no lower or upper limits on slot
machines payback percentage.
3) Greed. If they can make an extra 50 million per year by cheating
and no one is there to stop them, I think some of them will cheat.
4) There will be even more CA tribal casinos in the near future. The
market is very far from saturation. It makes perfect sense for them
to rob and pillage as much as they can now, while the going is great
and while there is less competition.

L.Wluiki

#47

I for one believe Bob Dancer in his reply. IGT machines are not

being modified in any way, anywhere.

glenbob

seems like a bold statement
does anyone in CA even check to make sure the rom chips haven't been
modified?
do they randomly check machines for random dealing? (there is a test
mode on igt machines that does this)
if a CA casino found a modified rom chip, would they tell anyone?
is there a shortage of unemployed software engineers in CA who would
know how to modify a rom chip?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, glen bob <glenbob@y...> wrote:

#48

i disagree with the opinion below regarding why some tribal casinos
cheat. i am not aware of any news, governmental reports, civil
cases, criminal cases, administrative cases, etc. finding "some
Tribal casinos cheat." i would appreciate it if anyone would post a
link regarding any cheating by any ca tribal casino. i want to
compare any verified ca tribal casino cheating with the verified
nevada casino cheating (such as the venetian, and station casinos
jumbo bingo). i will definitely continue to play vp at ca tribal
casinos; sometimes i win, and the comps and cb are icing on the cake.

Frank

I can think of four reasons before breakfast why some Tribal

casinos

cheat:
1) It's not against the law.
2) CA tribal Casinos do not have to make public their win or their
payback percentages, and there is no lower or upper limits on slot
machines payback percentage.
3) Greed. If they can make an extra 50 million per year by cheating
and no one is there to stop them, I think some of them will cheat.
4) There will be even more CA tribal casinos in the near future.

The

market is very far from saturation. It makes perfect sense for them
to rob and pillage as much as they can now, while the going is

great

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:

and while there is less competition.

L.Wluiki

#49

You've heard of Montezuma's Revenge right? Well, tribal gaming is
Pontiac's Revenge.

You can also insert your local historical U.S. American-Indian figure
(i.e. Geronimo, Tecumseh, Crazy Horse, Osceola) with this joke.

i disagree with the opinion below regarding why some tribal casinos
cheat. i am not aware of any news, governmental reports, civil
cases, criminal cases, administrative cases, etc. finding "some
Tribal casinos cheat." i would appreciate it if anyone would post

a

link regarding any cheating by any ca tribal casino. i want to
compare any verified ca tribal casino cheating with the verified
nevada casino cheating (such as the venetian, and station casinos
jumbo bingo). i will definitely continue to play vp at ca tribal
casinos; sometimes i win, and the comps and cb are icing on the

cake.

Frank

> I can think of four reasons before breakfast why some Tribal
casinos
> cheat:
> 1) It's not against the law.
> 2) CA tribal Casinos do not have to make public their win or

their

> payback percentages, and there is no lower or upper limits on

slot

> machines payback percentage.
> 3) Greed. If they can make an extra 50 million per year by

cheating

> and no one is there to stop them, I think some of them will cheat.
> 4) There will be even more CA tribal casinos in the near future.
The
> market is very far from saturation. It makes perfect sense for

them

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "fayokoyama" <FYokoyama@a...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:
> to rob and pillage as much as they can now, while the going is
great
> and while there is less competition.
>
> L.Wluiki

#50

gb!! do you know the difficulty involved in producing an operating
microchip? The clean room costs alone would BREAK an Indian tribe!
Perhaps with things like 2-1 JoB or 6% pay out slots, all tribes in N
America in cahoots together might get by, for a time. Sure, next pow
wow we all gather in Chief's teepee.. crank out a few more modified!
She wont mind. CD

> I for one believe Bob Dancer in his reply. IGT machines are not
being modified in any way, anywhere.
>
> glenbob

seems like a bold statement
does anyone in CA even check to make sure the rom chips haven't

been

modified?
do they randomly check machines for random dealing? (there is a

test

mode on igt machines that does this)
if a CA casino found a modified rom chip, would they tell anyone?
is there a shortage of unemployed software engineers in CA who

would

···

-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "aaquad250" <aaquad250@y...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, glen bob <glenbob@y...> wrote:
know how to modify a rom chip?

#51

The California Gambling Commission lists 53 tribal casinos

currently

operation in the State. The American Casino Guide (California)
identified only two out of these 53 as being run by outside
companies: Rincon (Harrah's), and Thunder Valley (Stations Casino).
Can you identify others?

I was in Palm Springs recently and visited an indian casino with the
name "Trump 49" or something, and I'm pretty sure The Donald is
involved, as a part owner, manager, or ? (don't know exactly).

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:

*********************************************************************

>
I can think of four reasons before breakfast why some Tribal

casinos

cheat:
1) It's not against the law.
2) CA tribal Casinos do not have to make public their win or their
payback percentages, and there is no lower or upper limits on slot
machines payback percentage.
3) Greed. If they can make an extra 50 million per year by cheating
and no one is there to stop them, I think some of them will cheat.
4) There will be even more CA tribal casinos in the near future.

And I can think of four reasons why they may not cheat, although I
have absolutely no idea whether they actually do.
1. If caught the bad publicity will ruin them, which is a pretty
risky way to run a business.
2. They make a ton of money without cheating (poor pay schedules, no
payback minimums, no state or federal taxes, zero cost for property
on the reservation, low wages, etc)
3. Lack of local competition makes it easy for people who live
nearby to visit ... and there of millions of people near them.
4. The tribes fought long and hard, for more than a hundred years, to
get some legal recognition ... they don't want to screw that up with
bad publicity.

Also, someone mentioned the possibility of altering the ROM's in a
machine. Someone else said it would be virtually impossible for the
tribes to do it. I'm no expert, but I think it is relatively easy to
reprogram a ROM chip (or replace it with another ROM chip that has a
different program). In other words, I think they could afford to
hire a programmer to write a new program that cheats the gambler.
But as I said, I don't know if they do that, but there certainly are
some good reasons for not doing it. What if the programmer decides
to tell the new governor the tribes are cheating? If there IS
cheating going on, I think its much more likely a few tribal leaders
are skimming ... in other words, cheating the other tribal members of
their fair share. That's what the mafia used to do and I imagine it
continues to happen today, to some extent, in LV, Reno, AC, etc. Who
monitors the money transfers at any casino?

#52

crazydonconcepts wrote:

gb!! do you know the difficulty involved in producing an operating
microchip? The clean room costs alone would BREAK an Indian tribe!

snip

When gb mentioned ROM chips, he probably meant EPROM; once someone has the modified program on a computer and connect it to an eprom 'burner', they could make the eproms in their home. No clean room or lab is required.

This is not to say that I am paranoid about the casinos -- Indian or otherwise -- modifying machines ... but the fact of the matter is that technologically it can be done rather easily, and no doubt would be hard for the gaming commissions to detect UNLESS it is their practice to put spot inspections without notice, in which they would actually pull boards from randomly selected machines (they could put substitute boards in place so the machine could continue to operate), and then take those boards back to a lab for in depth evaluation. If this were done, along with laws that would actually put a casino's _license_ at risk for even a first violation, there probably would never be any cheating at all.

Finally, I think the risk of anonymous tips to the gaming commission from disgruntled employees is probably a sufficient deterrent.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

#53

IGT leases their machines to the casinos for % of the coin in,in
return IGT tech takes care of all major problems on the machines.

That was why it was so important for IGT to buy the TITO technology,
{paid about about a 40% premium to the going share price) as 85% of
slot machine problems involved the money hopper.
Now ,with the exception of the paper and ink for the tickets,
casino's slot tech. do not have acess to the to the brains of the
machine.
When a local indian casino decided to raise some machines from 8/5
JOB to 9/6, IGT sent the tech. to make the change.

Sources; long time IGT share holder [me :)]
SEC filings by IGT, { cant remember the Form #)
A local tribal chairwoman who requested the change
and the 2 IGT tech. who let me observe the procedure
M J

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

crazydonconcepts wrote:

> gb!! do you know the difficulty involved in producing an operating
> microchip? The clean room costs alone would BREAK an Indian tribe!

#54

Bill, O' course, a program to reprogram reprogramable chips is not
so difficult while chip building surely is. For what it's worth, the
VP boxes in overseas military clubs and rec areas are using multiple
decks to deal. I realized RF's never came from the 4 draw and began
to see the same card even reappear after discard. Went and got the
video camera and have some great shots of this occurring. I was told
they are for amusument only and that's the way it is. My advice is
don't play there if you expect to see a RF now and again. During the
VietNam era they were removed due to club managers schemes to rake
profits then brought back to finance morale services. Now the actual
govt agency does the cheating of the troops. Progress is defined as
from lining simple greedy NCO's pockets to DOD's.

crazydonconcepts wrote:

> gb!! do you know the difficulty involved in producing an

operating

> microchip? The clean room costs alone would BREAK an Indian

tribe!

snip

When gb mentioned ROM chips, he probably meant EPROM; once someone

has

the modified program on a computer and connect it to an

eprom 'burner',

they could make the eproms in their home. No clean room or lab is

required.

This is not to say that I am paranoid about the casinos -- Indian

or

otherwise -- modifying machines ... but the fact of the matter is

that

technologically it can be done rather easily, and no doubt would

be hard

for the gaming commissions to detect UNLESS it is their practice

to put

spot inspections without notice, in which they would actually pull
boards from randomly selected machines (they could put substitute

boards

in place so the machine could continue to operate), and then take

those

boards back to a lab for in depth evaluation. If this were done,

along

with laws that would actually put a casino's _license_ at risk for

even

a first violation, there probably would never be any cheating at

all.

Finally, I think the risk of anonymous tips to the gaming

commission

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

from disgruntled employees is probably a sufficient deterrent.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

#55

crazydonconcepts wrote:

Bill, O' course, a program to reprogram reprogramable chips is not
so difficult while chip building surely is.

Agreed, but no one builds a chip to implement a program ... except maybe NASA. Programs are written to use existing chips or chip-sets; e.g., we don't replace chips in our computers for each program we want to run. As I had suggested, ROM could be replaced with a different ROM (probably a PROM or EPROM, although I suspect that an EPROM could be easily discovered by visual inspection; on the other hand, I don't know if PROMs necessarily look any different from ROMs). Of course, there are ways for the manufacturers and the gaming commissions to make all of this more difficult and risky.

For what it's worth, the
VP boxes in overseas military clubs and rec areas are using multiple
decks to deal. I realized RF's never came from the 4 draw and began
to see the same card even reappear after discard.

If this was strictly a random deal from a multi-card deck, then you should have also seen an occasional pair of the same cards in the same hand, and it would even be possible to get five-of-a-kind, whether the machine paid extra for that or not.

Went and got the
video camera and have some great shots of this occurring. I was told
they are for amusument only and that's the way it is. My advice is don't play there if you expect to see a RF now and again. During the
VietNam era they were removed due to club managers schemes to rake
profits then brought back to finance morale services. Now the actual
govt agency does the cheating of the troops.

snip

Cheating? If information was disclosed on the machine that it used multiple decks, then how would that be cheating?

If that information wasn't disclosed and cheating was the actual purpose, reprogramming the game to deal seconds would have been just as easy and a whole lot harder to detect. And if the program went so far as to avoid ever dealing a pair of the same card ... in order to not be 'discovered' ... then why not also program it to not deal a card that was the same as one that was just discarded? And doing all of that extra programming to hide what the machine was doing would probably be more awkward than a program to just deal seconds. So it would seem to me that they were not trying to hide that there were multiple decks, but they should have actually posted that info on the machine. If it wasn't posted, then that's strong evidence that they were 'cheating', but perhaps they were merely 'negligent' :wink:

Cheers.

Bill Velek

#56

-Bill, however it's done, it's done and I'll copy and show you the
deal If you like. The second deck comes in on the draw and to 4
cards to RF is how is noticed. You're allowed 4 of kind, just not
drawn RF which is some silly lower figure anyway 3750 as I recall.
Delt RF happens but the odds are higher as we are aware. GI's are
aware of it.One's taken are stateside players used to single deck
games which we call honest. Does not say multiple, comment is "It
does not say "SINGLE DECK" see the dif? Check your normal info
screen. I consider it a scam but just IMO. DoD is USAs largest
organization after MLK day marchers on MLK Blvd, nations longest
street. CD

crazydonconcepts wrote:

> Bill, O' course, a program to reprogram reprogramable chips is

not

> so difficult while chip building surely is.

Agreed, but no one builds a chip to implement a program ... except

maybe

NASA. Programs are written to use existing chips or chip-sets;

e.g., we

don't replace chips in our computers for each program we want to

run.

As I had suggested, ROM could be replaced with a different ROM

(probably

a PROM or EPROM, although I suspect that an EPROM could be easily
discovered by visual inspection; on the other hand, I don't know

if

PROMs necessarily look any different from ROMs). Of course, there

are

ways for the manufacturers and the gaming commissions to make all

of

this more difficult and risky.

> For what it's worth, the
> VP boxes in overseas military clubs and rec areas are using

multiple

> decks to deal. I realized RF's never came from the 4 draw and

began

> to see the same card even reappear after discard.

If this was strictly a random deal from a multi-card deck, then

you

should have also seen an occasional pair of the same cards in the

same

hand, and it would even be possible to get five-of-a-kind, whether

the

machine paid extra for that or not.

> Went and got the
> video camera and have some great shots of this occurring. I was

told

> they are for amusument only and that's the way it is. My advice

is

> don't play there if you expect to see a RF now and again. During

the

> VietNam era they were removed due to club managers schemes to

rake

> profits then brought back to finance morale services. Now the

actual

> govt agency does the cheating of the troops.

snip

Cheating? If information was disclosed on the machine that it

used

multiple decks, then how would that be cheating?

If that information wasn't disclosed and cheating was the actual
purpose, reprogramming the game to deal seconds would have been

just as

easy and a whole lot harder to detect. And if the program went so

far

as to avoid ever dealing a pair of the same card ... in order to

not be

'discovered' ... then why not also program it to not deal a card

that

was the same as one that was just discarded? And doing all of

that

extra programming to hide what the machine was doing would

probably be

more awkward than a program to just deal seconds. So it would

seem to

me that they were not trying to hide that there were multiple

decks, but

they should have actually posted that info on the machine. If it

wasn't

···

-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

posted, then that's strong evidence that they were 'cheating', but
perhaps they were merely 'negligent' :wink:

Cheers.

Bill Velek

#57

their chances of getting caught are pretty much non-existant if there
is no gaming regulation, and they can always lose the evidence, worse
case they can blame some fall guy

last year, there was a case at a major corporate casino in
mississippi, a player hit a big progressive, but the meter didn't
reset and the casino claimed machine fault and refused to pay, the
player complained to the gaming control board, they requested the
casino hand over the evidence, the casino said, oops!, we somehow
made a big mistake and reset the machine in question, somehow can't
find the machine motherboard, and somehow erased all the surveilance
tapes, the board said it is the casino's responsibility to hold all
evidence, judgement for the player, plus penalty to encourage the
casino to make less mistakes next time

that's why every serious gambler needs regulated gambling and a
gaming control board that they can take their complaints to

if the game is not random, all the information gained from
mathematics (average return, variance, strategy) is useless

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:

1. If caught the bad publicity will ruin them, which is a pretty
risky way to run a business.

#58

That's not the way they have to do it at my local Indian Casino.

I've personally watched the techs going through the setup menus.
Touch screen hierarchical menus - at one point, the screen options
showed the game and payback percentage;
ie - Jacks or better - 99%
    - Jacks or better - 98% etc.

It's as simple touching a card to hold/unhold it.

Brian

···

--- mklpryy24 <mklpryy24@yahoo.com> wrote:

Now ,with the exception of the paper and ink for the tickets,
casino's slot tech. do not have acess to the to the brains of the
machine.
When a local indian casino decided to raise some machines from 8/5
JOB to 9/6, IGT sent the tech. to make the change.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus

#59

Of course, as that's part of the built in to the program the RNG
chip's designed to run. All kinds of options can be manufactured at
time of manufacture then programmed. Waht's bandied
d about here is fake chips made to do different things than IGT, fer
instance designed, had chips created for machine it sold. Again
folks, that big switch behind Bugsy's picture in Jimmy Caan's office
don't exist. Course we all know they change automatic at 2 AM each
Tuesday. CD

--- mklpryy24 <mklpryy24@y...> wrote:
>
> Now ,with the exception of the paper and ink for the tickets,
> casino's slot tech. do not have acess to the to the brains of

the

> machine.
> When a local indian casino decided to raise some machines from

8/5

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Brian Lavoie <blavoie46@y...> wrote:

> JOB to 9/6, IGT sent the tech. to make the change.

That's not the way they have to do it at my local Indian Casino.

I've personally watched the techs going through the setup menus.
Touch screen hierarchical menus - at one point, the screen options
showed the game and payback percentage;
ie - Jacks or better - 99%
    - Jacks or better - 98% etc.

It's as simple touching a card to hold/unhold it.

Brian

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus

#60

I understand the thread. I was simply making a counterpoint to MKS
who implied that paytables can't easily be changed by casino techs.

As far as fake chips go, I think it's safe to assume that a
civilisation capable of reaching Mars can figure out how to fake a
chip.

The issue is not "Can they?", but rather "Do they?".

Today's cheating chips should be much more sophisticated that the
early ones a la American Coin Co. If I wanted to program one, I
wouldn't be so obvious as to never give a jackpot. Simply take away
every second RF, and the machine hold goes up an average of 1%.

Better yet, why not rate the skill of the player as the tutor
programs do - if he/she is obviously unskilled, invite them back by
providing lots of small winners. If highly skilled, punish them -
here's the solution to those scumbag advantage players!

Having said this, I play regularly - but only in certain
jurisdictions. As a recreational player, I also use a stop-loss
technique - if I'm losing, I leave. Don't care if you want to call it
variance, poor luck, bad karma, or whatever - just get the hell outta
there, and try another day or another casino.

Brian

···

--- crazydonconcepts <crazydonconcepts@earthlink.net> wrote:

Of course, as that's part of the built in to the program the RNG
chip's designed to run. All kinds of options can be manufactured at
time of manufacture then programmed. Waht's bandied about here is
fake chips made to do different things than IGT, fer
instance designed, had chips created for machine it sold.

Again folks, that big switch behind Bugsy's picture in Jimmy Caan's
office don't exist. Course we all know they change automatic at 2
AM each Tuesday. CD

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus