Fayokoyama wrote: please provide some (at least one) links to this ample
evidence that
most ca indian casinos are dishonest.
Thats a backward construction. Those places want my money. They are the
ones who are stating that they are honest. Therefore they are the ones who
ought to back up that statement. If they dont, it is only reasonable that
their implications be questioned and challenged.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lwluiki wrote:
For dishonest blackjack games (cards marked in the backs using
sopfisticate laser technology, delivered by the card manufacturer
sealed), please refer to Stanford Wong's _Current Blackjack News_.
This case actaully went through the court system in the San Diego
area, but due to tribal sovereignty, no damage was awarded.
Did the Plaintiff's lawyer include the card manufacturer as a defendant?
See also Howard Stern's post (#25096) about non-random blackjack
machines.
I looked at that post; it says: "I do not know the manufacturers involved for VP but if you
should see a SEGA Robo Dealer for blackjack you should run as this game has
selectable hold percentage as a casino option."
What is a "selectable hold percentage" in blackjack (the word "percentage" is throwing me here)? If this means that the casino can merely select the value at which the machine (dealer) must hold, then I don't see that as being dishonest if that information is revealed before the game is played.
Non-random slot machines, Wall Street Journal, 2 or 3 years ago.
snip
I have _never_ considered "slot" machines to be random, in the first place. You can have two identical machines next to one another, and one can be set at a different win rate than the other (and from what I've heard ... they usually are placed with a good machine right next to a lousy one). Obviously, identical machines with different pay-rates can not be random ... at least not both of them; if it is legal to have one of them non-random, then it would be legal (and probably likely) for _both_ to be NON-random. Among "slot" machines, I don't find this to be surprising or dishonest.
Also the repeated failures of the Australian slots manufacturer
Aristocrat to gain Nevada Gaming Control approval due to Aristocrat's
non-random machines in CA as well as in other areas.
No comment. Don't know anything about that.
"Class Two" gaming machines made to look and play like regular slots
but based on a bingo/lottery system and are not subject to
the "2,000 machines per tribe" limit.
Can you please explain this a little bit?
Thanks.
Bill Velek
MHS wrote:
Fayokoyama wrote: �please provide some (at least one) links to this ample
evidence that
most ca indian casinos are dishonest.�That�s a backward construction.
???
Those places want my money. They are the
ones who are stating that they are honest. Therefore they are the ones who
ought to back up that statement.
snip
What you're asking the casinos to do is to prove a negative -- that they are not dishonest. They could therefore show you a _million_billion_ consecutive honest games and still not "prove" themselves. It's much easier to shift the burden to those who say that they are dishonest; they only need to show _one_ game that was dishonest.
Bill Velek
I looked at that post; it says: "I do not know the manufacturers
involved for VP but if you
should see a SEGA Robo Dealer for blackjack you should run as this
game has
selectable hold percentage as a casino option."
What is a "selectable hold percentage" in blackjack (the word
"percentage" is throwing me here)? If this means that the casino
can
merely select the value at which the machine (dealer) must hold,
then I
don't see that as being dishonest if that information is revealed
before
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:
the game is played.
*********************************************************************
One way "selectable hold" is done is via a "forward looking"
subprogram in the software. For example, if the selectable hold
switch is set at 10% (i.e. machine keeps 10% of the action), then
the subprogram will evaluate the next hand (both deal and draw)
BEFORE the player sees this hand. If the result of this next hand is
going to make the cumulative hold of the machine to fall below 10%,
then this deal or draw is discarded (again without the player's
knowing), and the process starts over again. This technique is
applicable to both blackjack machines and video poker machines. This
is the machine's equivalent of human's "dealing seconds" as Howard
Stern pointed out.
*********************************************************************
>
I have _never_ considered "slot" machines to be random, in the
first
place. You can have two identical machines next to one another,
and one
can be set at a different win rate than the other (and from what
I've
heard ... they usually are placed with a good machine right next
to a
lousy one). Obviously, identical machines with different pay-
rates can
not be random ... at least not both of them; if it is legal to
have one
of them non-random, then it would be legal (and probably likely)
for
_both_ to be NON-random. Among "slot" machines, I don't find this
to be
surprising or dishonest.
*********************************************************************
The idea is "virtual wheel mapping", approved in the 1980's, this
allows slots to have very large jackpots without having to have
wheels large enough for the carnival park. The slots are still
random in the sense that every wheel outcome is programmed into the
RGN, albeit with a different "weight" associated with it. Therefore
not all wheel outcomes are equally likely. A dishonest slot machine
would be one whose RGN does not contain certain wheel outcomes (e.g.
the highest jackpot is excluded).
However, when applied to video poker, any kind of "virtual card
mapping" would deemed to be dishonest, and (thank goodness) this is
currently illegal in most jurisdictions.
L.Wluiki
Bill Velek wrote: "What you're asking the casinos to do is to prove a
negative -- that they
are not dishonest. They could therefore show you a _million_billion_
consecutive honest games and still not "prove" themselves. It's much
easier to shift the burden to those who say that they are dishonest;
they only need to show _one_ game that was dishonest."
If that was a fundamental principle for financial transactions, we wouldn't
have large companies that sell bonds and stocks to raise their capital,
supposedly based on full, fair and honest independently audited financial
statements.
On second thought, come to think of it, maybe that's why it is so often a
good idea to sell short the biggest BS'ers.
I visited a casino in southern Oregon several years ago (Seven
Feathers) and had the "one game" experience you mentioned. I put $10
in a quarter machine to see what it plays like. I bet one coin (25
cents) each game and played 40 games. I didn't get a single winning
hand ... not even a JorB pair. I should have stopped before the $10
was gone, but at some point I was curious to see if I would ever get
a winning hand. Then I noticed no one else was playing that bank of
machines. Did they know something I didn't? Was it all just a
coincidence? This was a case where "session bankroll" and "total
amount gambled" mean the same thing! I have never had an experience
like that ANYWHERE ... not even in other Indian casinos. I did OK at
some of their other VP games (they seemed "normal") ... so I still
have no idea what was going on, if anything.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "MHS" <mspevack@m...> wrote:
Bill Velek wrote: It's much
easier to shift the burden to those who say that they are dishonest;
they only need to show _one_ game that was dishonest."
I wrote: "Duh ... there were available on the company's
website."
MHS responded:
"If you thegaminglab.com, you may be correct in using the past
tense. In the world of today, with none of the information cited
apparently available, the assertions are utterly unverifiable and,
thus, utterly useless.
Maybe a screen capture or alternate source is available. If the
research was that valid, one would have to think that it would be 1)
repeatable and 2)publicly available."
I need to cut my losses; if MHS can't get the facts right, then it's
hopeless.
FACT: The thread is about 3 specific CA Indian casinos located near
Marysville (which is located on Route 20 & route 70) -- it is NOT
about generic CA Indian casinos. The casinos in question are:
Colusa Casino, Feather Falls Casino, and Gold Country Casino. As
part of my research, I used to provide timely BJ information to
Stanford Wong's CBJN (on an upaid basis) for these Northern CA
casinos since it was no skin off my teeth.
FACT: The manufacturer in question was never IDed (because there are
a lot of positive EV opportunities) -- it is the **manufacturer**
that placed a copy of the GAMING LAB report on its website. I had
to contacted TomSki for his assistance on some aspects of the Gaming
Lab report.
FACT: As mentioned above, I had to seek additional VP expertise, and
in this case I relied on TomSki as part of my "due diligence" in
addition to questioning the manufacturer, the slot people, slot
technicians, observing each of the specific casino "expand" over
time, etc. FYI - Colusa has about 700 slots, most of which are IGT;
FF has about 1,000 slots, again most of which are IGT; GC has about
450 slots, and most machines are also from IGT.
FACT: Anyone can perform the due diligence if they so choose such
that the research is repeatable.
FACT: If people like MHS don't fully understanding Auditing concepts
and limitations as specified under US GAAP (General Accepted
Accounting Principles), then MHS and others ought to speak with a
CPA or check out www.fasb.org or www.aicpa.org.
Good bye.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "MHS" <mspevack@m...> wrote:
I visited a casino in southern Oregon several years ago (Seven
Feathers) and had the "one game" experience you mentioned. I put
$10
in a quarter machine to see what it plays like. I bet one coin
(25
cents) each game and played 40 games. I didn't get a single
winning
hand ... not even a JorB pair. I should have stopped before the
$10
was gone, but at some point I was curious to see if I would ever
get
a winning hand. Then I noticed no one else was playing that bank
of
machines. Did they know something I didn't? Was it all just a
coincidence? This was a case where "session bankroll" and "total
amount gambled" mean the same thing!
(snip)********************
The chance of that happening (assuming you were playing a JoB type
game and not one that only paid dealt sesquential royals) is about 1
in 31 billion. Just about as unlikely as being hit by lightning
twice on the same New Years' eve while there is a full moon
and.........
L.Wluiki
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:
the probability of getting nothing is about 55% per hand
the probability of 40 consecutive hands of nothing is:
.55^40=.000000004%
i'd say something was seriously wrong
generally to rig a game, the obvious thing to do is something like
double the royal cycle, i believe this is what happened in the vegas
bar top scam a while back ("dealing seconds")
also, i seem to remember sigma having some trouble with "bad chips"
that weren't giving up the expected number of royals
the point is that in nevada there is a regulatory board:
http://gaming.nv.gov/
indian gaming is unregulated, if you feel you have been cheated you
can complain to the tribal council and the bureau of indian affairs,
perhaps if you are lucky you can get a free buffet comp for your
troubles
igt and bally's are required by license to manufacture random
machines (reel slots are also random, it's just that the cycles
aren't published) and they cannot manufacture non-random machines
even for sale outside of nevada, however, of course, they are not
liable for machine modification after sale, in nevada the owner is
liable and subject to random checks.
> Bill Velek wrote: It's much
> easier to shift the burden to those who say that they are
dishonest;
> they only need to show _one_ game that was dishonest."
I visited a casino in southern Oregon several years ago (Seven
Feathers) and had the "one game" experience you mentioned. I put
$10
in a quarter machine to see what it plays like. I bet one coin (25
cents) each game and played 40 games. I didn't get a single
winning
hand ... not even a JorB pair. I should have stopped before the
$10
was gone, but at some point I was curious to see if I would ever
get
a winning hand. Then I noticed no one else was playing that bank
of
machines. Did they know something I didn't? Was it all just a
coincidence? This was a case where "session bankroll" and "total
amount gambled" mean the same thing! I have never had an
experience
like that ANYWHERE ... not even in other Indian casinos. I did OK
at
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "MHS" <mspevack@m...> wrote:
some of their other VP games (they seemed "normal") ... so I still
have no idea what was going on, if anything.
lwluiki wrote:
> For dishonest blackjack games (cards marked in the backs using
> sopfisticate laser technology, delivered by the card manufacturer
> sealed), please refer to Stanford Wong's _Current Blackjack
News_.
> This case actaully went through the court system in the San Diego
> area, but due to tribal sovereignty, no damage was awarded.Did the Plaintiff's lawyer include the card manufacturer as a
defendant?
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:
***********************************
Yes. The defense was, if a customer (the casino) wanted to place an
order of "TV Magic Cards" (I have fond memories of those myself),
then the card manufacturer did not commit a crime in filling that
order.
************************************
> "Class Two" gaming machines made to look and play like regular
slots
> but based on a bingo/lottery system and are not subject to
> the "2,000 machines per tribe" limit.Can you please explain this a little bit?
*************************************
"Class Three Gaming Devices" are "Las Vegas Style" slot machines. CA
Indian tribes are limited to operate a maximum of 2,000 such
machines per tribe. However, there is no such ceiling on "Class Two
Gaming Devices". Protype Class Two machines that looks, feels, and
plays like regular machines are now being considered by the CA
Indian Casinos. A Class Two Double Diamond slot machine will look
and plays just like it's Class Three sibling, but WHEN, WHICH, HOW
OFTEN, and HOW MUCH a jackpot is awarded now depends on a
bingo/lottery system, i.e., how many people are playing at that
given time, the total amount wagered during the past 24 hours etc.,
so that if only a few people are playing, you may get a "mixed bar"
win, but with a lot of people playing, you may get a "D7D" win, and
so on.
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's carrot/stick is: raise the 2,000
per tribe ceiling/tax the revenue.
The CA Indian casinos' position is: we are happy with our 17-year-no
control-no tax-gaming compacts, plus we have a trump card, Class Two
macines in Class Three Clothing!
lwluiki wrote:
> lwluiki wrote:
>
> > For dishonest blackjack games (cards marked in the backs using
> > sopfisticate laser technology, delivered by the card manufacturer
> > sealed), please refer to Stanford Wong's _Current Blackjack
News_.
> > This case actaully went through the court system in the San Diego
> > area, but due to tribal sovereignty, no damage was awarded.
>
> Did the Plaintiff's lawyer include the card manufacturer as a
defendant?
***********************************
Yes. The defense was, if a customer (the casino) wanted to place an
order of "TV Magic Cards" (I have fond memories of those myself),
then the card manufacturer did not commit a crime in filling that
order.
snip (... and thanks for the other explanations)
Becauase of your reference to "damages" in your initial description, I interepreted this as being a civil suit rather than criminal. But your subsequent comment that the defense was that they committed no crime leaves me wondering whether this was a civil or criminal action. The burden of proof is usually different (I don't know about California law), and I can see how it might be difficult to get a conviction in a criminal prosecution. In a civil suit -- maybe a class action and maybe lots of punative damages -- the theory of liability would be similar to the successful suits against gun manufacturers when their otherwise legal products and legal sales are nonetheless used criminally by other parties. An outcome which I do not agree with, by the way. Furthermore, the case for civil liability against the card manufacturer would probably be even more clear than the gun cases, if these are the facts: the manufacturer sold the marked decks directly to casinos where it knows that cards are used for gambling; and the marked decks were packaged to look the same as regular decks, and could therefore easily be switched, either intentionally or accidentally. I think this would be especially true if the card manufacturer had no evidence of any other legitimate intended use for the marked cards (has anyone even known any casino to give away 'marked' decks as any sort of a gift or prize, and would you even want to go to such a casino that would have the bad taste to give away such a 'gift')?
Cheers.
Bill Velek
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:
The chance of that happening (assuming you were playing a JoB type
game and not one that only paid dealt sesquential royals) is about
1 in 31 billion.
L.Wluiki>>
I had no idea the odds were that high. As I mentioned, I played
other VP machines in the Seven Feathers casino the same day, and they
seemed fine to me. My thought was maybe there were a few machines,
randomly placed among the "normal" ones, that were rigged for a
virtual 100% payback. Or the other machine "class" you mentioned.
Or maybe playing "short-coin" the odds are different? There was
definitely something wrong with it. I didn't complain because I
rarely go there. Also, I wonder if the floor employees understand
the details of the machine paybacks ... its not uncommon to play
slots and have long losing streaks and they may think this also
applies to VP.
You know, that's one thing I appreciate about Bingo (believe it or
not). The odds are usually bad, of course, but at least 10-12 people
win in every 1 hour session, and you are there to actually witness it
(sometimes they are friends), plus its virtually impossible for the
casino to cheat! That applies to Indian Bingo too. They make a ton
of money without cheating.
There have been many bingo scandals with & without indians over the
years. Inside help; phoney cards; invalid confims of wins; etc. Not
>> The chance of that happening (assuming you were playing a JoB
type
> game and not one that only paid dealt sesquential royals) is
about
> 1 in 31 billion.
> L.Wluiki>>I had no idea the odds were that high. As I mentioned, I played
other VP machines in the Seven Feathers casino the same day, and
they
seemed fine to me. My thought was maybe there were a few machines,
randomly placed among the "normal" ones, that were rigged for a
virtual 100% payback. Or the other machine "class" you mentioned.
Or maybe playing "short-coin" the odds are different? There was
definitely something wrong with it. I didn't complain because I
rarely go there. Also, I wonder if the floor employees understand
the details of the machine paybacks ... its not uncommon to play
slots and have long losing streaks and they may think this also
applies to VP.You know, that's one thing I appreciate about Bingo (believe it or
not). The odds are usually bad, of course, but at least 10-12
people
win in every 1 hour session, and you are there to actually witness
it
(sometimes they are friends), plus its virtually impossible for the
casino to cheat! That applies to Indian Bingo too. They make a
ton
at all impossible to cheat. --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:
of money without cheating.
30 or so years ago there was a gambling authority
named Scarne. I read, perhaps even bought, his classic
book: "Scarne on Cards" Shortly before he died, as I
understand he was largely discredited since he
publicly claimed card counting at BJ was a scam or
something. However, I remember one of the things in
his book. He said that organized bingo games, such as
those in churches run by :"professional" bingo groups
were 100% crooked!!
You know, that's one thing I appreciate about Bingo
(believe it or
not). The odds are usually bad, of course, but at
least 10-12 people
win in every 1 hour session, and you are there to
actually witness it
(sometimes they are friends), plus its virtually
impossible for the
casino to cheat! That applies to Indian Bingo too.
They make a ton
of money without cheating.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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He said that organized bingo games, such as
those in churches run by :"professional" bingo groups
were 100% crooked!!
>
I know, many people don't believe Bingo is a fair game ... remember I
said "believe it or not"! And I'm sure it isn't in some places. But
in the bingo halls I go to, including Indian bingo in the summer, in
my opinion the games are fairly run.
And I'll tell you another thing I can guarantee you won't believe ...
at times bingo odds favor the player. Here's a simple example.
Suppose its a cold, windy, and rainy night. You go to Arizona
Charleys for the 3AM bingo session ... and no one else shows up
because of the weather! Guess what? You will automatically win
EVERY session except one ... the one based on getting a coverall
within a certain number of balls. Many people fail to recognize that
winning most bingo games has everything to do with how many people
are playing and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the mathematical
probability of getting a bingo. I pointed this out to the Wizard of
Odds because his website has some large bingo probability tables.
For most bingo games his tables are worthless. There is no easy way
to calculate the true odds because it changes from session to
session, depending on the number of people playing.
Don't get me wrong ... I'm not saying Bingo has a positive
expectation. It usually doesn't. All I'm saying is it's not always
a bad gambling option, which many people believe.
oh- 69
----- Original Message -----
From: "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 7:25 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: CA Slot Machines (to mspevack)
He said that organized bingo games, such as
> those in churches run by :"professional" bingo groups
> were 100% crooked!!
> >
I know, many people don't believe Bingo is a fair game ... remember I
said "believe it or not"! And I'm sure it isn't in some places. But
in the bingo halls I go to, including Indian bingo in the summer, in
my opinion the games are fairly run.And I'll tell you another thing I can guarantee you won't believe ...
at times bingo odds favor the player. Here's a simple example.
Suppose its a cold, windy, and rainy night. You go to Arizona
Charleys for the 3AM bingo session ... and no one else shows up
because of the weather! Guess what? You will automatically win
EVERY session except one ... the one based on getting a coverall
within a certain number of balls. Many people fail to recognize that
winning most bingo games has everything to do with how many people
are playing and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the mathematical
probability of getting a bingo. I pointed this out to the Wizard of
Odds because his website has some large bingo probability tables.
For most bingo games his tables are worthless. There is no easy way
to calculate the true odds because it changes from session to
session, depending on the number of people playing.Don't get me wrong ... I'm not saying Bingo has a positive
expectation. It usually doesn't. All I'm saying is it's not always
a bad gambling option, which many people believe.vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm
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Paragraph 3a has been added to the FAQ:
http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/FAQ.htm#3
******************
3a. Are VP machines random/fair at Indian casinos? -
They're probably random/fair at some Indian casinos, and maybe not at
others. The problem is that they aren't regulated by a respected Gaming
Commission so you really don't know. Video poker machines that are made
by Nevada licensed companies are random/fair, unless they have been
altered by the casino.
******************
Suggestions for improving the wording of this FAQ entry are welcome.
vpFREE Administrator
Sorry if I offended you regarding bingo in general, and Indian bingo
specifically. I'm biased. Several years ago my wife won an all
expense paid one week vacation for two in London, including round
trip airfair from Seattle, at a very nice hotel (The Millenium
Bailey) in South Kensington (Glochester)... worth at least $4000.
More recently, bingo paid for almost half of a 30 day vacation in
Italy ... nearly $3000. We also won $1000 last July (on our wedding
aniversary) playing Indian bingo. We are way ahead of the game
playing Indian bingo.
But this is VP board, so I'll never mention bingo again.
tomflush wrote:
oh- 69
snipped everything else
What is that supposed to mean?
Bill
In post #25230: "L.Wluiki mentioned the probability of an event was
1 in 31 billion."
aaquad250 wrote (in message #25231)
the probability of getting nothing is about 55% per hand
the probability of 40 consecutive hands of nothing is:
.55^40=.000000004%
First, using winPoker, under computer perfect-play with max coin bet
for 9/6 JOB, the probability of "nothing as a hand" is 0.54543.
Therefore using aaquad250's math, the probability of 40 consecutive
hands of nothing is about 1 in 33.9 billion hands.
The more important point is that there are VP games where the
probability of getting "a hand of nothing" is very high, sometimes
as high as 80%. As a result, the probability of 40
consecutive "hands of nothing" is about 1 in 7,523 hands. In AC,
there is a popular Joker Poker game where the probability of a "hand
of nothing" is about 70% (about 1 in 1.6 million hands).
In all fairness, the casino originally mentioned was located in
Oregon, not California.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "aaquad250" <aaquad250@y...> wrote: