VP versus SLOTS

[Howard_Stern]

At VP you know the probabilities (Assuming an honest game each of the 52
cards has to have an equal chance of appearing.). Except on some Indian
Reservations, this is the law. By looking at the paytables on a VP machine
you can tell exactly what the payback percentage is with perfect play.
(Either from memory or using software to calculate the number.) On a slot
machine, even though it is random, the various symbols and blanks do not
have an equal chance of appearing. Usually the losing symbols will occur
more often than the "stops" on the reels would indicate.
Example: The Wheel of Fortune game actually has 464 outcomes for each of
the three reels. Only 2 of those are the Wheel of Fortune symbol on the
first reel and one each on the second and third reel thus the progressive
on average will get hit about once every 50 million plays. There are 7 out
of 464 on the third reel that will get you a wheel spin.

Many other slots have different payback percentages by allowing the casino
to use a different ratio for the occurrence of the symbols by having
different programs in the machines. Two slots standing next to each other
may look identical but have different payback percentages.

···

[Original Message]
From: tjbosson <dr3putt@cox.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 1/10/2004 5:40:48 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] VP versus SLOTS

I am a newcomer to VP via the Slots. Is there such a thing as one
machine being more loose than another as there are (in my opinon)in
slots?
Thanks.....

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[fordscks_jason_c_vp]

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stern" <howard.w.stern@e...>
wrote:
"At VP you know the probabilities (Assuming an honest game each of
the 52 cards has to have an equal chance of appearing.). Except on
some Indian Reservations, this is the law."

Can you name me some Indian Reservations where this is happening?
Also, can you name the manufacturer of these machines. You can
either send me via my e-mail or post here.

"Example: The Wheel of Fortune game actually has 464 outcomes for
each of the three reels. Only 2 of those are the Wheel of Fortune
symbol on the first reel and one each on the second and third reel
thus the progressive on average will get hit about once every 50
million plays. There are 7 out of 464 on the third reel that will
get you a wheel spin."

Are we talking about the same game?
http://www.igtonline.com/megajackpots/new_games/wof.html The reason
I ask is I thought Nevada Gaming law has a limit on how long a
progressive cycle can be -- 50 million is a very long cycle. Are
you sure you have the right number of stops and symbols on each stop?

Thank you.

[L_Wluiki]

May I refer you to message #23429 ?
In fact I am even more cautious than just avoiding manufacturers
that are banned from conducting business in Nevada: Suppose you are
in an Idian Casino in California and you come across an IGT video
poker machine, if this machine is owned by the casino (rather than
leased from IGT), what assurance do I have that the RGN in this
machine had not been replaced by one that, for example, will never
give me a royal flush?
I am reasonably sure that an IGT machine at Thurder Valley or Rincon
is not going to cheat me, but then, I have no incentive to wait in
line to play 7/5/4 Double Bonus there either.
L.Wluiki

···

*********************************************************************

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "fordscks" <jason_c_vp@y...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stern"

<howard.w.stern@e...>

wrote:
"At VP you know the probabilities (Assuming an honest game each of
the 52 cards has to have an equal chance of appearing.). Except on
some Indian Reservations, this is the law."

Can you name me some Indian Reservations where this is happening?
Also, can you name the manufacturer of these machines. You can
either send me via my e-mail or post here.

"Example: The Wheel of Fortune game actually has 464 outcomes for
each of the three reels. Only 2 of those are the Wheel of Fortune
symbol on the first reel and one each on the second and third reel
thus the progressive on average will get hit about once every 50
million plays. There are 7 out of 464 on the third reel that will
get you a wheel spin."

Are we talking about the same game?
http://www.igtonline.com/megajackpots/new_games/wof.html The

reason

I ask is I thought Nevada Gaming law has a limit on how long a
progressive cycle can be -- 50 million is a very long cycle. Are
you sure you have the right number of stops and symbols on each

stop?

Thank you.

[fordscks_jason_c_vp]

"In fact I am even more cautious than just avoiding manufacturers
that are banned from conducting business in Nevada: Suppose you are
in an Idian Casino in California and you come across an IGT video
poker machine, if this machine is owned by the casino (rather than
leased from IGT), what assurance do I have that the RGN in this
machine had not been replaced by one that, for example, will never
give me a royal flush?"

The RNG is based on a "software" program; for the casino to have
machines that will never give you a royal flush, then they need
someone who can alter the software. It's much easier for the casino
to make the same money as a machine that never awards a RF by
cutting the full house by 2 for 1 or similar actions, other things
being equal.

"I am reasonably sure that an IGT machine at Thurder Valley or
Rincon is not going to cheat me, but then, I have no incentive to
wait in line to play 7/5/4 Double Bonus there either."

I second your feelings about TV's inventory of VP, as TV is a VP
wasteland.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:

May I refer you to message #23429 ?

[L_Wluiki]

The RNG is based on a "software" program; for the casino to have
machines that will never give you a royal flush, then they need
someone who can alter the software.

This has been done before, even in well regulated Navada.
About a year ago, a friend told me about a 25c 5-coin VP machine in
the Marysville area that has a $20,000+ progressive royal. Assuming
a 1% meter feed, that would have been 38 royal cycles. The chance of
that happening in an honest machine is e^38 or about 1 in 31
quadrillions.

It's much easier for the casino
to make the same money as a machine that never awards a RF by
cutting the full house by 2 for 1 or similar actions, other things
being equal.

But that would be an honest game. My point is there is no incentive
for the Indian casinos in California to offer honest games since
they don't have to.

L.Wluiki

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "fordscks" <jason_c_vp@y...> wrote:

[fordscks_jason_c_vp]

"This has been done before, even in well regulated Navada."
That is more the rare exception because the guy who did is now dead
(as I was told).

"About a year ago, a friend told me about a 25c 5-coin VP machine in
the Marysville area that has a $20,000+ progressive royal. Assuming
a 1% meter feed, that would have been 38 royal cycles. The chance of
that happening in an honest machine is e^38 or about 1 in 31
quadrillions."

You weren't told the whole truth. The casino in question is most
likely Colusa Casino (www.colusacasino.com). I didn't see that
machine, but I did observe a Pot of Gold at Colusa that had $17,000
on a $1 9/6 JOB (but beware as some Pot of Gold have quads paying 15
for 1!). I will provide you some details -- machines in Colusa that
did not meet California's new standards were removed about 2 years
ago (one of my favorite vp machines in Colusa had a 9/6 JOB where if
you hit a flush, you were given a free keno game, making the flush
worth about 6.92 units). Now, if the casino wasn't Colusa, then it
had to be Gold Country or Feather Falls, and since Feather Falls
didn't have progressive VP in a long time, then by process of
elimination I would say the 2nd choice is Gold Country Casino.

Let me explain why the $20,000+ machine might have existed even
though it might appear to be a $0.25 machine. The first reason is
not everyone plays full coins, which mean the meter moves based on
the **total action** even though a few players are qualified for the
jackpot. The second reason is the minimum bet to qualify for the
jackpot was $5.00 (or 20 quarters) not $1.25. That's right, even
though the machine had a minimum bet of $0.25, you can't qualify for
the RF jackpot unless you bet $5.00 or 20 coins!! I highly doubt it
was a 5 coins machine. The third reason is lack of knowledgeable
players. The fourth reason could be a high meter feed (see below on
story about a unnamed CA Indian casino). And the last reason is the
abundance of machines linked to that meter.

"But that would be an honest game. My point is there is no incentive
for the Indian casinos in California to offer honest games since
they don't have to."

You are mistaken again. There **IS** incentive for these Indian
casinos nearby Marysville to offer a honest game since they are
trying to convince the local populace NOT to travel 2 hours to Reno
or Lake Tahoe.

I will share with you a story about this rare CA Indian casino -- it
had $1 9/6 JOB IGT machines with a progressive meter and 20
machines -- the meter movement was fast such that it wasn't uncommon
to see the RF get hit at around $6,000. Eventually, the casino cut
the meter feed such that typical RF were being hit around $4,500.
This casino also had a separate bank of $1 8/5 JOB by IGT, and it
wasn't uncommon to see jackpots in the $16,000 range before the pros
came. Eventually, the casino cut that meter feed as well.

Lastly, the highest RF meter (at X for 1) I've seen in an Indian
casino was 2,800 for 1 (I heard it was hit at over 3,000 for 1).

I know I can never convince you, but I have spoken with the slot
managers in these casinos. Additionally, I have performed a
considerable amount of research on these games in CA Indian
casinos. Lastly, I am a vp game inventor (i.e. I have a patent on
vp) so I am a little more knowlegdeable than the average person on
this message board.

Good luck.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:

[L_Wluiki]

Thank you for the valuable feedback. I admit I didn't have all the
information (and 2nd hand information at that) to evaluate the game
in question.
You mentioned:
"I will provide you some details -- machines in Colusa that
did not meet California's new standards were removed about 2 years
ago...."
Can you tell me what these "California's new standards" are, or
where to get this information? I recall reading some comments by
Indian Casino interest groups about improving the *integrity* of the
games offered, can you comment on that? Do you think some time in
the future there may be a uniform set of enforceable regulations
regarding the integrity of the games offered in Indian casinos in
California?
Thanks again for your time.

L.Wluiki

[MHS1]

fordscks wrote: “There **IS** incentive for these Indian
casinos nearby Marysville to offer a honest game since they are
trying to convince the local populace NOT to travel 2 hours to Reno
or Lake Tahoe.”

There is no way in the world to substantiate the honesty of any casino
without two important activities—thorough technical testing of the machines
and independent outside auditing of the results. Without either of those two
controls, the honesty of the entire enterprise is open to doubt and is just
asking to be challenged. The subsequent paragraphs about cutting pay tables
only supports my statement.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[fordscks_jason_c_vp]

I wrote: "There **IS** incentive for these Indian casinos nearby
Marysville to offer a honest game since they are trying to convince
the local populace NOT to travel 2 hours to Reno or Lake Tahoe."

To which mspevack "MHS" responded: "There is no way in the world to
substantiate the honesty of any casino without two important
activities—thorough technical testing of the machines and
independent outside auditing of the results. Without either of those
two controls, the honesty of the entire enterprise is open to doubt
and is just asking to be challenged. The subsequent paragraphs about
cutting pay tables only supports my statement."

My reply to MHS and people like MHS:
I won't spent too much time here -- MHS is IGNORANT in this subject
matter as it pertains to the aforementioned CA Indian casinos.

Firstly, anyone who has an "average average" understanding of
auditing theory knows under US GAAP, auditing is done to
present a report that is free from **material** mis-statements.
Even auditors can make mistakes -- Enron, Worldcom, etc. An audit
only gives the readers assurance as to the quality of the
information (i.e. report).

Secondly, with regards to the **aforementioned casinos**, I have
researched revelant Gaming Lab document(s) regarding an unfamiliar
slot manufacturer. I have even interviewed that particular slot
manufacturer. As I mentioned earlier, I have spoken with slot
directors and questioned slot technicians. I am saying I done my
due diligence.

Since I have performed ample research, the burden is on MHS to back
up his or her assertions with valid proof as opposed to WILD
accusations. What I am saying is there are ways to substantiate the
honesty of the casino other the ways MHS mentioned.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "MHS" <mspevack@m...> wrote:

[MHS1]

Fordscks wrote: “MHS is IGNORANT in this subject
matter as it pertains to the aforementioned CA Indian casinos.
“Firstly, anyone who has an "average average" understanding of
auditing theory knows under US GAAP, auditing is done to
present a report that is free from **material** mis-statements.”
Until, the day when any independent auditor’s report to the State of
California about the operations of an Indian casino is posted here, that
statement will just have to rest as an empty insult.
I have researched revelant Gaming Lab document(s) regarding an unfamiliar
slot manufacturer. I have even interviewed that particular slot
manufacturer. As I mentioned earlier, I have spoken with slot
directors and questioned slot technicians. I am saying I done my
due diligence.
And, pray tell, where are those revelant Gaming Lab document(s) available
for anyone but a privileged individual to see them? If they’re public, tell
us where. If they’re not, sorry, but there is no reason why we should take
anyone’s word here.
Since I have performed ample research, the burden is on MHS to back
up his or her assertions with valid proof as opposed to WILD
accusations. What I am saying is there are ways to substantiate the
honesty of the casino other the ways MHS mentioned.
So what was that research and what are “ways to substantiate the honesty”
that we have not seen here?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[L_Wluiki]

Fordscks wrote: "MHS is IGNORANT in this subject
matter as it pertains to the aforementioned CA Indian casinos.
"Firstly, anyone who has an "average average" understanding of
auditing theory knows under US GAAP, auditing is done to
present a report that is free from **material** mis-statements."

Until, the day when any independent auditor's report to the State

of

California about the operations of an Indian casino is posted

here, that

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "MHS" <mspevack@m...> wrote:

statement will just have to rest as an empty insult.

*********************************************************************
I agree. The honesty of ANY casino in general, and in particular the
three Indian Casinos in the Marysville area, CANNOT be ascertained
by private interviews with the slots directors or slots
manufacturers (some of which are not allowed to conduct business in
Nevada to begin with).
fordscks' idea that "There **IS** incentive for these Indian
casinos nearby Marysville to offer a honest game since they are
trying to convince the local populace NOT to travel 2 hours to Reno
or Lake Tahoe." is likewise flawed. There is ample incentive for
these Indian casinos to be DISHONEST : It is a lot more likely for
the Indian casinos in the Marysville area to exact a price from
their nearby residents for the convenience, the price being
dishonest/lower payback games. Yesterday, Howard Stern wrote: " As
long as the suckers will play anything that says video poker, the
Indian Casinos will offer these horrible games." While I'm not ready
to categorize the Marysville area population as suckers, I do
seriously double too many of them have the dexterity to determine
the ER of a video poker game, or recognize which slot machines have
not received approval/licensing from the Gaming Control Board, or
which slots manufacturers are banned from doing business in Nevada.
There is simply no way to determine the honesty of a slot machine in
the short term due to it's high variance, but in the long term, I'm
sure the population in the Marysville area are much better off by
taking that 2 hour drive. There will be less foreclosure signs in
the area.
*********************************************************************
> I have researched revelant Gaming Lab document(s) regarding an
unfamiliar

slot manufacturer. I have even interviewed that particular slot
manufacturer. As I mentioned earlier, I have spoken with slot
directors and questioned slot technicians. I am saying I done my
due diligence.

And, pray tell, where are those revelant Gaming Lab document(s)

available

for anyone but a privileged individual to see them? If they're

public, tell

us where. If they're not, sorry, but there is no reason why we

should take

anyone's word here.

Since I have performed ample research, the burden is on MHS to back
up his or her assertions with valid proof as opposed to WILD
accusations. What I am saying is there are ways to substantiate

the

honesty of the casino other the ways MHS mentioned.

So what was that research and what are "ways to substantiate the

honesty"

that we have not seen here?

*********************************************************************

The burden of proof is on the Casinos, Indian owned or not. The
assertions are not "WILD accusations": There is ample published,
well documented, and court-recorded evidence that some (may be most)
CA Indian casinos are dishonest, and if the CA Indian Casinos are
held to the standards of other well regulated jurisdictions, some
(may be most) would lose their gaming licenses (if they have one to
begin with).

fordscks alluded to "California's new standards" in his post. I have
requested clarification on this "new standard" in my last post, and
cannot comment on them in detail untill I study them, but it does
sound like voluntary "guidelines" with no enforcement teeth at this
point, may be something of the nature: "You don't have to be honest,
but if you really think that money stinks, then you can.....). Let's
wait and see.

L.Wluiki

[fordscks_jason_c_vp]

"And, pray tell, where are those revelant Gaming Lab document(s)
available for anyone but a privileged individual to see them? If
they're public, tell us where. If they're not, sorry, but
there is
no reason why we should take anyone's word here."

Duh ... there were available on the company's website. Like I
stated before, MHS is ignorant of the matters at hand.

Good-bye.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "MHS" <mspevack@m...> wrote:

[fordscks_jason_c_vp]

In an earlier post lwluiki confessed the following "Thank you for
the valuable feedback. I admit I didn't have all the information
(and 2nd hand information at that) to evaluate the game in question."

At the time lwluiki made a wild accusation employing a poor example
of statistics to support his or her invalid claim. Such behavior is
very dishonest. I will not no longer answer any of lwluiki's posts
as her behavior of spreading falsehood speaks for itself.

Good-bye.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:

[L_Wluiki]

In an earlier post lwluiki confessed the following "Thank you for
the valuable feedback. I admit I didn't have all the information
(and 2nd hand information at that) to evaluate the game in

question."

At the time lwluiki made a wild accusation employing a poor

example

of statistics to support his or her invalid claim. Such behavior

is

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "fordscks" <jason_c_vp@y...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:
very dishonest. I will not no longer answer any of lwluiki's posts
as her behavior of spreading falsehood speaks for itself.

Good-bye.

*********************************************************************
Thank you for ceding to me the closing statement.
The interested reader can refer back to posts #25118 and #25124.
For the amusement of our board members, and on pain of quoting
myself, allow me to recapitulate, based on insufficient 2nd hand
information, but sound mathematics:

"About a year ago, a friend told me about a 25c 5-coin VP machine in
the Marysville area that has a $20,000+ progressive royal. Assuming
a 1% meter feed, that would have been 38 royal cycles. The chance of
that happening in an honest machine is e^38 or about 1 in 31
quadrillions."

Since fordscks is no longer willing to continue this thread (with me
anyway, but may be MHS can tease him out), the only moral of this
story is "never play a 5-coin 25c VP machine that advertises a
$20,000 progressive royal." Sound like something vppappy would say.

L.Wluiki

[fayokoyama]

L.Wluiki,
please provide some (at least one) links to this ample evidence that
most ca indian casinos are dishonest.

Frank

There is ample published,
well documented, and court-recorded evidence that some (may be

most)

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:

CA Indian casinos are dishonest, and if the CA Indian Casinos are
held to the standards of other well regulated jurisdictions, some
(may be most) would lose their gaming licenses (if they have one to
begin with).
L.Wluiki

[L_Wluiki]

For dishonest blackjack games (cards marked in the backs using
sopfisticate laser technology, delivered by the card manufacturer
sealed), please refer to Stanford Wong's _Current Blackjack News_.
This case actaully went through the court system in the San Diego
area, but due to tribal sovereignty, no damage was awarded.
See also Howard Stern's post (#25096) about non-random blackjack
machines.

Non-random slot machines, Wall Street Journal, 2 or 3 years ago.
Also the repeated failures of the Australian slots manufacturer
Aristocrat to gain Nevada Gaming Control approval due to Aristocrat's
non-random machines in CA as well as in other areas.

"Class Two" gaming machines made to look and play like regular slots
but based on a bingo/lottery system and are not subject to
the "2,000 machines per tribe" limit. This is the current hot topic
in Indian gaming interest groups.

Sorry about the lack of specific links, I'll gather them up and
email them to you shortly.

L.Wluiki

L.Wluiki,
please provide some (at least one) links to this ample evidence

that

most ca indian casinos are dishonest.

Frank

***** "Some" is a objective existence qualifier; "(may be most") is
my subjective opinion. ***** (L.Wluiki)

> There is ample published,
> well documented, and court-recorded evidence that some (may be
most)
> CA Indian casinos are dishonest, and if the CA Indian Casinos

are

> held to the standards of other well regulated jurisdictions,

some

> (may be most) would lose their gaming licenses (if they have one

to

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "fayokoyama" <FYokoyama@a...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:
> begin with).
> L.Wluiki

[L_Wluiki]

Did a google--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...>
wrote:

For dishonest blackjack games (cards marked in the backs using
sopfisticate laser technology, delivered by the card manufacturer
sealed), please refer to Stanford Wong's _Current Blackjack News_.
This case actaully went through the court system in the San Diego
area, but due to tribal sovereignty, no damage was awarded.
See also Howard Stern's post (#25096) about non-random blackjack
machines.

Non-random slot machines, Wall Street Journal, 2 or 3 years ago.
Also the repeated failures of the Australian slots manufacturer
Aristocrat to gain Nevada Gaming Control approval due to

Aristocrat's

non-random machines in CA as well as in other areas.

"Class Two" gaming machines made to look and play like regular

slots

but based on a bingo/lottery system and are not subject to
the "2,000 machines per tribe" limit. This is the current hot

topic

in Indian gaming interest groups.

Sorry about the lack of specific links, I'll gather them up and
email them to you shortly.

L.Wluiki

> L.Wluiki,
> please provide some (at least one) links to this ample evidence
that
> most ca indian casinos are dishonest.
>
> Frank

***** "Some" is a objective existence qualifier; "(may be most")

is

my subjective opinion. ***** (L.Wluiki)

> > There is ample published,
> > well documented, and court-recorded evidence that some (may be
> most)
> > CA Indian casinos are dishonest, and if the CA Indian Casinos
are
> > held to the standards of other well regulated jurisdictions,
some
> > (may be most) would lose their gaming licenses (if they have

one

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "fayokoyama" <FYokoyama@a...> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:
to
> > begin with).
> > L.Wluiki

[L_Wluiki]

Did a google--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...>
wrote:

For dishonest blackjack games (cards marked in the backs using
sopfisticate laser technology, delivered by the card manufacturer
sealed), please refer to Stanford Wong's _Current Blackjack News_.
This case actaully went through the court system in the San Diego
area, but due to tribal sovereignty, no damage was awarded.
See also Howard Stern's post (#25096) about non-random blackjack
machines.

Non-random slot machines, Wall Street Journal, 2 or 3 years ago.
Also the repeated failures of the Australian slots manufacturer
Aristocrat to gain Nevada Gaming Control approval due to

Aristocrat's

non-random machines in CA as well as in other areas.

"Class Two" gaming machines made to look and play like regular

slots

but based on a bingo/lottery system and are not subject to
the "2,000 machines per tribe" limit. This is the current hot

topic

in Indian gaming interest groups.

Sorry about the lack of specific links, I'll gather them up and
email them to you shortly.

L.Wluiki

> L.Wluiki,
> please provide some (at least one) links to this ample evidence
that
> most ca indian casinos are dishonest.
>
> Frank

***** "Some" is a objective existence qualifier; "(may be most")

is

my subjective opinion. ***** (L.Wluiki)

> > There is ample published,
> > well documented, and court-recorded evidence that some (may be
> most)
> > CA Indian casinos are dishonest, and if the CA Indian Casinos
are
> > held to the standards of other well regulated jurisdictions,
some
> > (may be most) would lose their gaming licenses (if they have

one

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "fayokoyama" <FYokoyama@a...> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:
to
> > begin with).
> > L.Wluiki

[L_Wluiki]

Please refer to my previous post (#25182).
Standford Wong's _Current Black News_ cost about $75 per year, if
you are not a subscriber or an compulsive blackjack player, you may
be better off searching and navigating the San Diego newspapers'
achives or court records, I'll find out for you which court heard
this case.

The Nevada Gaming Control Board/Comission should have public records
concerning the saga that Aristocrat went through in obtaining
approval (you will find the link from the vpFREE links. In general,
if you see a slot nade by an unknown (unknown in Nevada, anyway)
manufacturer, chances are pretty good that this machine has an
adjustable hold that can be changed by the slot director or
mechanics (I'm not referring to the change in pay table), which in
Nevada is against the law.

I did a google search using the exact phrase "dishonest California
Indian casinos" and got 469 hits. You can also do a google search
on "class 2 gaming devices".

L.Wluiki

···

*********************************************************************

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "fayokoyama" <FYokoyama@a...> wrote:

L.Wluiki,
please provide some (at least one) links to this ample evidence

that

most ca indian casinos are dishonest.

Frank

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:
> There is ample published,
> well documented, and court-recorded evidence that some (may be
most)
> CA Indian casinos are dishonest, and if the CA Indian Casinos

are

> held to the standards of other well regulated jurisdictions,

some

> (may be most) would lose their gaming licenses (if they have one

to

> begin with).
> L.Wluiki

[MHS1]

fordscks wrote: “Duh ... there were available on the company's website.”

If you thegaminglab.com, you may be correct in using the past tense. In the
world of today, with none of the information cited apparently available, the
assertions are utterly unverifiable and, thus, utterly useless.

Maybe a screen capture or alternate source is available. If the research was
that valid, one would have to think that it would be 1) repeatable and
2)publicly available.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]