vpFREE2 Forums

XVP - Warn everyone to avoid 6/5 Blackjack

#1

In a message dated 1/31/2004 1:41:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalflush2222@hotmail.com writes:
The Stardust now has a small pit of 6/5 Blackjack (about 50 m from the front
desk area) and they even hit soft 17. It is billed as single deck and gets
patronage. It seems that if the public doesn't avoid this rip off then this
will eventually become the standard and the regular 3/2 blackjack will cease
to exist.
Two weeks ago one of my best friends went to Vegas, she loves to play
blackjack and she knows the baskc rules of blackjack, she had not been there for last
18 months, she called me and said "Liz you go to Vegas alot when did they
make most of the tables on the strip $25 minimum?" She also said "I had to go all
the way to the Stardust to find $10 and $5 tables so I could play all day and
I had the best time." I asked her, "Was it single or multi-deck and what were
they paying off on a blackjack 3-2 or 6-5?". Her response was probably very
typical of the average once a year Vegas tripper, it was "Is there a
difference?". I told her yes there is a difference blah blah blah , all about Casinos in
Vegas trying to change more games/odds in their favor, That the problem is
now spreading to Craps too, with different odds schedules for different point
numbers etc....Prior to my counseling on this issue she was CLUELESS. Moral of
story , as long as public is unaware casinos will continue pushing 6-5 and all
of their other bogus BS.

Liz

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Of course, there is another perspective on this issue:

The people who play this are helping finance the "good
games" for the knowledgeable players. Also, I'm not
sure the word "ripoff" applies--it's not like the
casinos are hiding the terms of the game from anyone.
It's not their responsibility to make sure the rubes
understand the math. There are TONS of resources
(including this FREE forum) to help people who want to
make the effort to be well-informed players.

Look at it this way: What if the casinos had ALWAYS
offered 6/5 BJ from the beginning, but now were
starting to offer 3/2 instead? Most of us would be
praising them to high heaven and saying how wonderful
they are. I doubt very many would be taking the
attitude, "It's about time! We were always entitled
to 3/2 odds, you know."

carlos

···

--- lizntony69@aol.com wrote:

---------------------------------
In a message dated 1/31/2004 1:41:23 PM Pacific
Standard Time,
royalflush2222@hotmail.com writes:
The Stardust now has a small pit of 6/5 Blackjack
(about 50 m from the front
desk area) and they even hit soft 17. It is billed as
single deck and gets
patronage...[etc].

#3

Carlos
Sounds like you work for one of those 6/5 rip off joints on the
strip.
Let me give you some very simple math. My average bet is about $100
and if Black Jack is dealt about 80 hands per hour, a player will
average about 4.5 naturals per hour. If we round that down to just
4 per hour, I will be short paid $30 each or $120 per hour for the
honor of sitting at the rip off table. In my average 4 day trip to
vegas I will play 20 hours of blackjack, which means it will cost me
$2,400 to try to overcome the new carnival rules.
If the idiots who are playing this game continue to do so, what in
the world makes you think the casinos will not next make Double Deck
6/5 and then do it to all the shoe games.
The final result will be that no one will have any chance of winning
at black jack, the amount of tables will go down, dealers will be
fired, pit bosses laid off and the owners of the casinos will roll
in thousands of new slot machines who do not need pensions, health
benifits, salary, or call in sick.
Victoria

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Carlos Lebron <calebron@s...> wrote:

Of course, there is another perspective on this issue:

The people who play this are helping finance the "good
games" for the knowledgeable players. Also, I'm not
sure the word "ripoff" applies--it's not like the
casinos are hiding the terms of the game from anyone.
It's not their responsibility to make sure the rubes
understand the math. There are TONS of resources
(including this FREE forum) to help people who want to
make the effort to be well-informed players.

Look at it this way: What if the casinos had ALWAYS
offered 6/5 BJ from the beginning, but now were
starting to offer 3/2 instead? Most of us would be
praising them to high heaven and saying how wonderful
they are. I doubt very many would be taking the
attitude, "It's about time! We were always entitled
to 3/2 odds, you know."

carlos

--- lizntony69@a... wrote:

---------------------------------
In a message dated 1/31/2004 1:41:23 PM Pacific
Standard Time,
royalflush2222@h... writes:
The Stardust now has a small pit of 6/5 Blackjack
(about 50 m from the front
desk area) and they even hit soft 17. It is billed as
single deck and gets
patronage...[etc].

#4

What about famine and pestilence? Don't forget those!

And I work for a municipal government in Missouri.

I'm not disputing it's a horrible game, or the simple
math involved. But what does that have to do with
being a rip-off? A rip-off is if you go up to the
table and it says "3:2 Odds", but when you get paid,
it's short what you expected. When you ask the dealer
what the heck is going on, he replies, "Oh, we only
tell people it's 3:2. We actually pay only 6:5".
THAT'S a rip-off. Your next call will be to the
gaming commission and the casino is in a lot of
trouble.

A rip-off is not, "They've been paying 3:2 for years.
It's what I came to expect. Now they changed it to
6:5 and I'm disappointed. I'm being ripped off." No,
you aren't. It's their game, they can change it
anytime they want.

If you stopped playing there, would you expect a
letter from the casino that says, "You played here for
years, now you aren't and we're disappointed. You're
ripping us off." ?

carlos

···

--- Victoria Rosado <ros4144@yahoo.com> wrote:

---------------------------------

Carlos
Sounds like you work for one of those 6/5 rip off
joints on the
strip.
Let me give you some very simple math. My average bet
is about $100
and if Black Jack is dealt about 80 hands per hour, a
player will
average about 4.5 naturals per hour. If we round that
down to just
4 per hour, I will be short paid $30 each or $120 per
hour for the
honor of sitting at the rip off table. In my average
4 day trip to
vegas I will play 20 hours of blackjack, which means
it will cost me
$2,400 to try to overcome the new carnival rules.
If the idiots who are playing this game continue to do
so, what in
the world makes you think the casinos will not next
make Double Deck
6/5 and then do it to all the shoe games.
The final result will be that no one will have any
chance of winning
at black jack, the amount of tables will go down,
dealers will be
fired, pit bosses laid off and the owners of the
casinos will roll
in thousands of new slot machines who do not need
pensions, health
benifits, salary, or call in sick.
Victoria

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Carlos Lebron
<calebron@s...> wrote:

Of course, there is another perspective on this

issue:

The people who play this are helping finance the

"good

games" for the knowledgeable players. Also, I'm not
sure the word "ripoff" applies--it's not like the
casinos are hiding the terms of the game from

anyone.

It's not their responsibility to make sure the rubes
understand the math. There are TONS of resources
(including this FREE forum) to help people who want

to

make the effort to be well-informed players.

Look at it this way: What if the casinos had ALWAYS
offered 6/5 BJ from the beginning, but now were
starting to offer 3/2 instead? Most of us would be
praising them to high heaven and saying how

wonderful

they are. I doubt very many would be taking the
attitude, "It's about time! We were always entitled
to 3/2 odds, you know."

carlos

--- lizntony69@a... wrote:

---------------------------------
In a message dated 1/31/2004 1:41:23 PM Pacific
Standard Time,
royalflush2222@h... writes:
The Stardust now has a small pit of 6/5 Blackjack
(about 50 m from the front
desk area) and they even hit soft 17. It is billed

as

single deck and gets
patronage...[etc].

vpFREE Links:

http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

   To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/

   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of Service.

#5

Carlos

Ok, on a semantics level I understand and can agree
with you. There is more to it though. People have
learned over the years that blackjack is the casino
game that gives you the best odds. Casino supported
tv shows are on the travel show all the time stating
that blackjack has house advantages of about 1/2
percent but never state that the house edge in 6/5 is
well over 2%. Dealers at casinos have been told to
explain to customers that it really makes little
difference because you do not get that many blackjacks
anyway (two cousins are dealers). They are actively
taking advantage of people who do not understand the
game but heard it is the best game to play. In
reality, the average player who thinks they know a
little basic strategy does not and plays the 3/2 game
at probably a 2%+ disadvantage and will be at near 5%
with these rules and should be just playing a slot but
there is no effort to let them know how bad a game
they are playing.
Yes they do not have to tell you the game is bad, so
then it is not a rip off but to me, it is a rip off as
long as they continue to support the myth that
blackjack (all forms) is a good game.
Victoria

What about famine and pestilence? Don't forget
those!

And I work for a municipal government in Missouri.

I'm not disputing it's a horrible game, or the
simple
math involved. But what does that have to do with
being a rip-off? A rip-off is if you go up to the
table and it says "3:2 Odds", but when you get paid,
it's short what you expected. When you ask the
dealer
what the heck is going on, he replies, "Oh, we only
tell people it's 3:2. We actually pay only 6:5".
THAT'S a rip-off. Your next call will be to the
gaming commission and the casino is in a lot of
trouble.

A rip-off is not, "They've been paying 3:2 for
years.
It's what I came to expect. Now they changed it to
6:5 and I'm disappointed. I'm being ripped off."
No,
you aren't. It's their game, they can change it
anytime they want.

If you stopped playing there, would you expect a
letter from the casino that says, "You played here
for
years, now you aren't and we're disappointed.
You're
ripping us off." ?

carlos

---------------------------------

Carlos
Sounds like you work for one of those 6/5 rip off
joints on the
strip.
Let me give you some very simple math. My average
bet
is about $100
and if Black Jack is dealt about 80 hands per hour,
a
player will
average about 4.5 naturals per hour. If we round
that
down to just
4 per hour, I will be short paid $30 each or $120
per
hour for the
honor of sitting at the rip off table. In my
average
4 day trip to
vegas I will play 20 hours of blackjack, which means
it will cost me
$2,400 to try to overcome the new carnival rules.
If the idiots who are playing this game continue to
do
so, what in
the world makes you think the casinos will not next
make Double Deck
6/5 and then do it to all the shoe games.
The final result will be that no one will have any
chance of winning
at black jack, the amount of tables will go down,
dealers will be
fired, pit bosses laid off and the owners of the
casinos will roll
in thousands of new slot machines who do not need
pensions, health
benifits, salary, or call in sick.
Victoria

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Carlos Lebron
<calebron@s...> wrote:
>
> Of course, there is another perspective on this
issue:
>
>
> The people who play this are helping finance the
"good
> games" for the knowledgeable players. Also, I'm
not
> sure the word "ripoff" applies--it's not like the
> casinos are hiding the terms of the game from
anyone.
> It's not their responsibility to make sure the
rubes
> understand the math. There are TONS of resources
> (including this FREE forum) to help people who
want
to
> make the effort to be well-informed players.
>
> Look at it this way: What if the casinos had
ALWAYS
> offered 6/5 BJ from the beginning, but now were
> starting to offer 3/2 instead? Most of us would
be
> praising them to high heaven and saying how
wonderful
> they are. I doubt very many would be taking the
> attitude, "It's about time! We were always
entitled
> to 3/2 odds, you know."
>
> carlos
>
>
> --- lizntony69@a... wrote:
>
> ---------------------------------
> In a message dated 1/31/2004 1:41:23 PM Pacific
> Standard Time,
> royalflush2222@h... writes:
> The Stardust now has a small pit of 6/5 Blackjack
> (about 50 m from the front
> desk area) and they even hit soft 17. It is
billed
as
> single deck and gets
> patronage...[etc].

vpFREE Links:

http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

···

--- Carlos Lebron <calebron@swbell.net> wrote:

--- Victoria Rosado <ros4144@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

   To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/

   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
Yahoo!
Terms of Service.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

#6

My sentiments on this are pretty limited to the subject ilne, "Warn
everyone ..."

I find it hard to get too bent out of shape about a casino offering
6/5 -- if I'm honest with myself, that is. I don't see it as much
different from a casino refusing to offer full pay vp at a given
denomination.

Both are likely to annoy me, but I'm simply going to walk in search of
better games -- realizing that each casino targets certain market
segments and some simply don't want my business. In all fairness, I
find it difficult to fault them for that.

As far as casinos "ripping off" the players at 6/5 tables --
presumably in part because blackjack is touted as providing "good
odds" ... well, if a player doesn't know enough to leave the table
immediately the first time they're paid short for a bj, then they're
pretty clueless from the start -- beyond my wildest imagination. Do
you want to even begin considering what their play strategy is like?

You can warn people off this game until you're blue in the face, but
the existance of these tables are a clear indication some gamblers are
getting into the game who have all the wits of your average 6/5 Jacks
or Better player (... duh, I heard video poker provides good odds).

- Harry

#7

I'm sorry, but that simply isn't true. A single deck game
paying 6/5 for naturals has a house edge of 1.35385%
with max-EV play.

Plenty crappy to be sure, but not "...well over 2%"

···

On Monday 02 February 2004 04:40 pm, Victoria Rosado wrote:

Ok, on a semantics level I understand and can agree
with you. There is more to it though. People have
learned over the years that blackjack is the casino
game that gives you the best odds. Casino supported
tv shows are on the travel show all the time stating
that blackjack has house advantages of about 1/2
percent but never state that the house edge in 6/5 is
well over 2%.

#8

Ripoff is the correct term. From Super Fun 21 (Single deck touted but
even money for BJ not) to now 6-5 the gullibility of the public is
being nurtured. 6-5 is not even new on the Strip. Arguing it is not
intended to rip-off the unwary is beyond semantics into the untrue.
They have been told single deck is the key & are now entering the
rendering plant gladly.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Carlos Lebron <calebron@s...> wrote:

What about famine and pestilence? Don't forget those!

And I work for a municipal government in Missouri.

I'm not disputing it's a horrible game, or the simple
math involved. But what does that have to do with
being a rip-off? A rip-off is if you go up to the
table and it says "3:2 Odds", but when you get paid,
it's short what you expected. When you ask the dealer
what the heck is going on, he replies, "Oh, we only
tell people it's 3:2. We actually pay only 6:5".
THAT'S a rip-off. Your next call will be to the
gaming commission and the casino is in a lot of
trouble.

A rip-off is not, "They've been paying 3:2 for years.
It's what I came to expect. Now they changed it to
6:5 and I'm disappointed. I'm being ripped off." No,
you aren't. It's their game, they can change it
anytime they want.

If you stopped playing there, would you expect a
letter from the casino that says, "You played here for
years, now you aren't and we're disappointed. You're
ripping us off." ?

carlos

--- Victoria Rosado <ros4144@y...> wrote:

---------------------------------

Carlos
Sounds like you work for one of those 6/5 rip off
joints on the
strip.
Let me give you some very simple math. My average bet
is about $100
and if Black Jack is dealt about 80 hands per hour, a
player will
average about 4.5 naturals per hour. If we round that
down to just
4 per hour, I will be short paid $30 each or $120 per
hour for the
honor of sitting at the rip off table. In my average
4 day trip to
vegas I will play 20 hours of blackjack, which means
it will cost me
$2,400 to try to overcome the new carnival rules.
If the idiots who are playing this game continue to do
so, what in
the world makes you think the casinos will not next
make Double Deck
6/5 and then do it to all the shoe games.
The final result will be that no one will have any
chance of winning
at black jack, the amount of tables will go down,
dealers will be
fired, pit bosses laid off and the owners of the
casinos will roll
in thousands of new slot machines who do not need
pensions, health
benifits, salary, or call in sick.
Victoria

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Carlos Lebron
<calebron@s...> wrote:
>
> Of course, there is another perspective on this
issue:
>
>
> The people who play this are helping finance the
"good
> games" for the knowledgeable players. Also, I'm not
> sure the word "ripoff" applies--it's not like the
> casinos are hiding the terms of the game from
anyone.
> It's not their responsibility to make sure the rubes
> understand the math. There are TONS of resources
> (including this FREE forum) to help people who want
to
> make the effort to be well-informed players.
>
> Look at it this way: What if the casinos had ALWAYS
> offered 6/5 BJ from the beginning, but now were
> starting to offer 3/2 instead? Most of us would be
> praising them to high heaven and saying how
wonderful
> they are. I doubt very many would be taking the
> attitude, "It's about time! We were always entitled
> to 3/2 odds, you know."
>
> carlos
>
>
> --- lizntony69@a... wrote:
>
> ---------------------------------
> In a message dated 1/31/2004 1:41:23 PM Pacific
> Standard Time,
> royalflush2222@h... writes:
> The Stardust now has a small pit of 6/5 Blackjack
> (about 50 m from the front
> desk area) and they even hit soft 17. It is billed
as
> single deck and gets
> patronage...[etc].

vpFREE Links:

http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

   To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/

   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of Service.

#9

Hi All,

This is an interesting discussion to me because I plan on playing some blackjack this trip but I'm not sure how you tell what the odds are on each table. Do they have a sign on the table saying what it is? If no one plays these shorted games, the casinos will soon get rid of them so I don't want to mistakenly perpetuate them.

Carol

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

I'm not sure how you tell what the odds are on each table. Do they

have a sign on the table saying what it is?

Not on your life. However, if you know what the rules are, you can
calculate the house edge using one of the wizard's handy tools

http://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/bjhouseedgecalc.html

This assumes you get 3:2 for a natural. Obviously, you won't want to
play at any table where you get less than that.

I would also suggest you avoid any table that uses a continuous
shuffling machine. It speeds up play, meaning players will lose
faster. It also renders card counting useless, which is why I'd like
to them gone. If you see the dealer drop the discards back into the
machine after every hand, don't sit down.

Another BJ game to avoid is the fake double deck, which is actually
an 8 deck game with a continuous shuffler. The trick is they take
out 2 decks worth of cards at a time and deal them just like a real
double deck game. Bad news. These tables are generally marked
as "Hand held multi-deck."

If no one plays these shorted games, the casinos will soon get rid

of them so I don't want to mistakenly perpetuate them.

One can only hope. However, ploppies continue to play craps,
roulette, the big-6 wheel, short-pay VP, and slot machines by the
thousands, all of which have worse odds than 6/5 blackjack, so one
can't hope too much.

Cheers.

--Omaha

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <ceewolf@c...> wrote:

#11

It's been fun, but this will be my last posting on
this subject.

···

---------------------

Afraid not, Michael. Why are they unwary? Why are
they gullible? It's because they are uninformed.

Unless the casino is dishonest (Ex: rigging a slot
machine to never hit the jackpot) the casino cannot
hurt any player who has MADE THE EFFORT to be an
educated player. And no, the casino is not misleading
or dishonest when they call a game "Super Fun 21"
instead of calling it "Low Payout Blackjack You
Shouldn't Play".

If it makes a player mad the casino decided to short
their BJ, it's completely fair to ask them, "Why
hasn't it been making you mad they have slot machines?
(What do some nickel machines pay? 93%???) Why hasn't
it been making you mad their roulette has a double
zero? Why hasn't it been making you mad they offer 3
Card Poker (3% house edge, minimum, isn't it?) I
suspect it hasn't been making you mad because those
aren't 'your game' and you don't care about them."

The worse that can be said about the casino shorting
their BJ is that the educated BJ player has been
inconvenienced. If you want to stay an advantage
player, you'll just have to learn something else or go
to a different casino. Too bad.

Lastly, I will make the point one more time that
players who DO make the effort to learn a game and
play to their advantage NEED THE RUBES TO COME IN AND
LOSE. Sorry to be mean, but: Bring 'em in and suck
'em dry. It's not guaranteed this will make a casino
offer some other full payout games, but it sure makes
it more likely they will do so (because they can
better afford it).

Successful gambling is hard. It's supposed to be.
The players who don't make the effort to learn don't
deserve sympathy and are not being ripped off.

carlos

--- Michael Boutot <vegas_iwish@yahoo.com> wrote:

---------------------------------
Ripoff is the correct term. From Super Fun 21 (Single
deck touted but
even money for BJ not) to now 6-5 the gullibility of
the public is
being nurtured. 6-5 is not even new on the Strip.
Arguing it is not
intended to rip-off the unwary is beyond semantics
into the untrue.
They have been told single deck is the key & are now
entering the
rendering plant gladly.

#12

Craps played with full 5X odds only yields a casino advantage of 0.32%. This
is better than most strip BJ games and far better than 6/5 BJ.

···

----- Original Message ----- However, ploppies continue to play craps,

roulette, the big-6 wheel, short-pay VP, and slot machines by the
thousands, all of which have worse odds than 6/5 blackjack

#13

"tomflush" <tomflush@n...> wrote:

Craps played with full 5X odds only yields a casino advantage of
0.32%. This is better than most strip BJ games and far better than
6/5 BJ.

But the 5X odds have no effect on the expected loss rate IN DOLLARS,
which is what most players are interested in. Say, for instance, a
player has the choice between $10 minimum BJ & craps. Even though the
minimums are the same, he'll end up wagering much more at the craps
table if he's taking those 5X odds. And therefore, even if the
player's disadvantage -- expressed as a percentage of total amount
wagered -- is less at the craps table, the expected loss hand-for-
hand may be much less at BJ.

Stuart (RandomStu)
sresnick2@comcast.net
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/mypage.htm

#14

But the 5X odds have no effect on the expected loss rate IN

DOLLARS,

which is what most players are interested in. Say, for instance, a
player has the choice between $10 minimum BJ & craps. Even though

the

minimums are the same, he'll end up wagering much more at the craps
table if he's taking those 5X odds. And therefore, even if the
player's disadvantage -- expressed as a percentage of total amount
wagered -- is less at the craps table, the expected loss hand-for-
hand may be much less at BJ.

The expected loss per hand/roll will be about the same. The variance
could be a lot higher taking full odds at craps. However, I think
you'll get a lot more hands per hour at BJ than at craps, meaning
you'll lose less per hour at craps. So if you can handle the swings,
you're probably better off at the craps table.

I wouldn't play either game, but there are plenty of people who
will. I wish them the best.

--Omaha

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Stuart" <sresnick2@c...> wrote:

#15

...

Lastly, I will make the point one more time that
players who DO make the effort to learn a game and
play to their advantage NEED THE RUBES TO COME IN AND
LOSE. Sorry to be mean, but: Bring 'em in and suck
'em dry. It's not guaranteed this will make a casino
offer some other full payout games, but it sure makes
it more likely they will do so (because they can
better afford it).

Successful gambling is hard. It's supposed to be.
The players who don't make the effort to learn don't
deserve sympathy and are not being ripped off.

carlos

I concur. A good friend who plays Spanish 21 according to the
appropriate strategy, http://wizardofodds.com/games/spanish21.html
sometime takes abuse from the rubes for hitting a 12 or 13 against a
dealer 4-6. However the rubes who play this game like blackjack are
profitable for the casinos and necessary for the advantage or merely
smart player so that there will be a supply of playable games in
nice facilities.

David

P.S. I haven't seem a certain ad in a few days. HOPEFULLY THE KID
WITH HIS TOUNGE STICKING OUT IS REALY GONE!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Carlos Lebron <calebron@s...> wrote:

#16

"omahalounge" <omahalounge@y...> wrote:
[BJ vs Craps w/5x odds, same min bet]

The expected loss per hand/roll will be about the same.

How could this be? If the craps table requires a minimum $10 pass
line bet, I thought that the house edge was slightly greater than 1%
of $10 (with the odds bet having no effect on house edge in dollar
terms). Whereas in a typical strip BJ game, I'd thought that playing
perfect basic strategy (without card counting) gives the house an
edge of roughly .5% of the bet.

That would make the loss per hand/roll about twice as much at craps,
given equal minimum bets. Am I mistaken?

Since the hands come faster in BJ, the expected loss per hour could
be another matter entirely. This would be significant if the player's
goal is to maximize playing time per bankroll. But if the goal is to
maximize comps, BJ would be the better choice (if we assume that
comps are based on total amount wagered, that the rate is the same
for craps & BJ, & that the casino wouldn't include the odds bets in
their comp calculations).

Stuart (RandomStu)
sresnick2@comcast.net
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/mypage.htm

#17

Yes and no and it depends on where you are playing. If the game is
S17, LS, double on any first two, double after split and split up to
four, your number is correct.
My number was incorrect but in looking at most of the SD games that
I see, they are H17 No surrender, double only 10,11, and no double
after split. Those games according to the Wizard of Odds are as you
said, not over 2% but at 1.8559. Even crappier than you thought.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Steve Jacobs <jacobs@x> wrote:

On Monday 02 February 2004 04:40 pm, Victoria Rosado wrote:

> Ok, on a semantics level I understand and can agree
> with you. There is more to it though. People have
> learned over the years that blackjack is the casino
> game that gives you the best odds. Casino supported
> tv shows are on the travel show all the time stating
> that blackjack has house advantages of about 1/2
> percent but never state that the house edge in 6/5 is
> well over 2%.

I'm sorry, but that simply isn't true. A single deck game
paying 6/5 for naturals has a house edge of 1.35385%
with max-EV play.

Plenty crappy to be sure, but not "...well over 2%"

#18

craps,

> roulette, the big-6 wheel, short-pay VP, and slot machines by the
> thousands, all of which have worse odds than 6/5 blackjack

Craps played with full 5X odds only yields a casino advantage of

0.32%. This

is better than most strip BJ games and far better than 6/5 BJ.

Correct, craps is better than any shoe game unless you are a
counter. It is my understanding that currently there are plans to
play with those odds on the strip rendering another decent game,
craps, at least less decent. The whole point folks is that the
corporations that run these places are not using these bad games to
support any good games. What they are doing is promoting
entertainment and you pay for entertainment. They use that term and
not gambling, because it is getting to the point where there is no
gamble, just write them the check.
As an interesting side note concerning blackjack. Most California
Indian Casinos offer a game basically similar to the games on the
strip but when the Mirage went to H17, one San Diego casino decided
to go to S17, LS and combined with their other rules, they have a
game as good as any shoe game on the strip.
The tourists will come to Vegas, they come with the mindset of "I
have a $1,000 to loose" and they will loose it.
Comps will go down, did not some places already get tough on comps,
good VP games will take more hunting to find, just like BJ and
eventually there will be no reason to go to Vegas unless you do the
tourist thing. The concept that you need winners to get the loosers
in still holds. They will have photos of the mega slot winner and
the guy who lucked out a royal on Carribean Stud, and it pays them
more benifits than your win on a full pay dueces machine or my win
on a BJ table.
It is corporate greed and I hope it bites them but in reality I have
some good games close to home, so I do not need them.
Victoria

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tomflush" <tomflush@n...> wrote:

----- Original Message ----- However, ploppies continue to play

#19

Carol
Casinos do not tell you the odds, there is a sight
called the wizard of odds which can do this.
The only good single deck blackjack games I know of
now in Vegas are downtown in kind of dingy places that
sweat any big bets.
On the strip the best games are six deck, dealer stays
on soft 17, double on any two cards, split up to 4
times, double on splits, with late surrender. Those
games have a house edge of a little over 4/10 of a
percent if you play perfect basic strategy.
These kind of rules are generally posted on the small
table limit sign or if not sure just ask.
Do not play 6/5 single deck, or super fun 21 or
spanish 21 unless you have done careful study of these
games, your odds will be much lower.
Even most of the other 6D games on the strip do have
house advantages (without the best of rules) of just
slightly over 1/2 percent.
Good luck

Victoria

···

--- Carol <ceewolf@comcast.net> wrote:

Hi All,

This is an interesting discussion to me because I
plan on playing some blackjack this trip but I'm not
sure how you tell what the odds are on each table.
Do they have a sign on the table saying what it is?
If no one plays these shorted games, the casinos
will soon get rid of them so I don't want to
mistakenly perpetuate them.

Carol

[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

#20

> > Ok, on a semantics level I understand and can agree
> > with you. There is more to it though. People have
> > learned over the years that blackjack is the casino
> > game that gives you the best odds. Casino supported
> > tv shows are on the travel show all the time stating
> > that blackjack has house advantages of about 1/2
> > percent but never state that the house edge in 6/5 is
> > well over 2%.
>
> I'm sorry, but that simply isn't true. A single deck game
> paying 6/5 for naturals has a house edge of 1.35385%
> with max-EV play.
>
>
> Plenty crappy to be sure, but not "...well over 2%"

Yes and no and it depends on where you are playing.

Kindly name the casino that offers this alleged game with
an edge "well over 2%" and describe the exact rules.

There just isn't any "yes and no" about it, and it doesn't
depend on where you are playing.

If the game is
S17, LS, double on any first two, double after split and split up to
four, your number is correct.

No, my number is correct for _no_ DAS, _no_ LS, just a standard
S17 single deck. Adding DAS and LS brings the number to -1.1918%.

A 6 deck game, with no DAS and no surrender gives -1.9034% which
is _still_ less than "...well over 2%". Now if we add H17 we get
-2.1187% which could reasonably be described as "slightly over 2%",
but 6 deck games with H17 are so lousy that informed players would
avoid them even with normal payoffs for naturals.

My number was incorrect but in looking at most of the SD games that
I see, they are H17 No surrender, double only 10,11, and no double
after split. Those games according to the Wizard of Odds are as you
said, not over 2% but at 1.8559.

I compute 1.8238% these rules. Even restricting the player to a single
split I get 1.8395%, and I have good reason to believe my program is
exact for games with a single split. Wiz's numbers are slightly less
favorable because mine use composition depedent play while his do
not.

Even crappier than you thought.

Nonsense. You changed the rules to get a much worse game, then
act like I'm surprised by Wiz's numbers. My numbers are 0.033%
different than Wiz's, simply because we used different assumptions
to guide the computation.

Just what I'd expect.

···

On Tuesday 03 February 2004 05:15 pm, Victoria Rosado wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Steve Jacobs <jacobs@x> wrote:
> On Monday 02 February 2004 04:40 pm, Victoria Rosado wrote: