I am new to Vegas and VP. I went to a seminar that Bob Dancer was
teaching at the Fiesta Rancho. If I truly can have an advantage by
playing optimum strategy, why would the casino allow this to be taught?
To me it would be like a casino letting someone give a class on how to
count cards while playing Blackjack.
thanks for your insights,
Jerry
I am new to Vegas and VP. I went to a seminar that Bob Dancer was
teaching at the Fiesta Rancho. If I truly can have an advantage by
playing optimum strategy, why would the casino allow this to be
taught? To me it would be like a casino letting someone give a class
on how to count cards while playing Blackjack.
thanks for your insights,
Jerry
First, you need to know that I have brought up MY teaching class at
that location--and unlike Bob Dancer does. I offered to do it FOR
FREE. The response? "We know who you are, and we don't want someone
teaching our playing customers to 'hit & run'. We want them to stay
for hours playing what they like to play".
Little dicky will come on here and say (and this is a true
compliment) "Bob Dancer, in addition to being paid to rope in
customers, is allowed to beat the hell out of them no problem". "But
what he does is reel 'em in to class, get them to stay and play, and
the casino racks up the profits from his 'students'.
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "truthseekr99" <ydoc21@...> wrote:
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@...>
wrote:
> I am new to Vegas and VP. I went to a seminar that Bob Dancer was
> teaching at the Fiesta Rancho. If I truly can have an advantage
by
> playing optimum strategy, why would the casino allow this to be
taught? To me it would be like a casino letting someone give a
class
on how to count cards while playing Blackjack.
> thanks for your insights,
> JerryFirst, you need to know that I have brought up MY teaching class at
that location--and unlike Bob Dancer does. I offered to do it FOR
FREE. The response? "We know who you are, and we don't want someone
teaching our playing customers to 'hit & run'. We want them to stay
for hours playing what they like to play".
Not surprising for several reasons. First, you are a nobody with a
flawed system. Second, casinos will always want people to play
longer. They look at the AVERAGE player who will NOT play with an
advantage even after taking the class. I think the old expression
fits nicely here ... you can a horse to water but you can't make him
drink.
Little dicky will come on here and say (and this is a true
compliment) "Bob Dancer, in addition to being paid to rope in
customers, is allowed to beat the hell out of them no
problem". "But
what he does is reel 'em in to class, get them to stay and play,
and
the casino racks up the profits from his 'students'.
That's why the casino lets him teach. You didn't think they actually
want us to win, did you? They realize that the vast majority of
players will not practice or stick to the strategies. If everyone did
they wouldn't let Bob teach, plain and simple.
Hey, Rob. That was a very logical response.
It is obvious (to me) that the casinos do not want someone teaching a class
about how to "win." They want a class taught about how to "play." Mr.
Dancer seems to be exactly what they want.
It's amazes me how many people can't see this.
On 3/26/06, rsing1111 <rsinger1111@cox.net> wrote:
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "truthseekr99" <ydoc21@...> wrote:
> I am new to Vegas and VP. I went to a seminar that Bob Dancer was
> teaching at the Fiesta Rancho. If I truly can have an advantage by
> playing optimum strategy, why would the casino allow this to be
taught? To me it would be like a casino letting someone give a class
on how to count cards while playing Blackjack.
> thanks for your insights,
> JerryFirst, you need to know that I have brought up MY teaching class at
that location--and unlike Bob Dancer does. I offered to do it FOR
FREE. The response? "We know who you are, and we don't want someone
teaching our playing customers to 'hit & run'. We want them to stay
for hours playing what they like to play".Little dicky will come on here and say (and this is a true
compliment) "Bob Dancer, in addition to being paid to rope in
customers, is allowed to beat the hell out of them no problem". "But
what he does is reel 'em in to class, get them to stay and play, and
the casino racks up the profits from his 'students'.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> First, you need to know that I have brought up MY teaching class
at that location--and unlike Bob Dancer does. I offered to do it FOR
FREE. The response? "We know who you are, and we don't want someone
teaching our playing customers to 'hit & run'. We want them to stay
for hours playing what they like to play".
Not surprising for several reasons. First, you are a nobody with a
flawed system.
Yoo-Hoo little dicky!! THEY didn't think so!!
Second, casinos will always want people to play longer.
HELLO McFly!!--Anybody HOME in there?? First you say I have a 'flawed
system' which you then go on to fully support by saying casinos want
people to play longer. You get very confused very easily, and I know
why: ME!....and right on cue to my every command!
They look at the AVERAGE player who will NOT play with an
advantage even after taking the class.
Now THAT's certainly supreme brilliance. All they care about is three
things: To get as many suckers in to his class--and their casino--as
possible; to keep them at the machines as long as they can; and to
get Mr. Chairman/Big Shot/Millionaire Club to do EXACTLY the same
things. They don't give two shoots if the players and he (and of
course the poor missus being dragged along) know how to play, what's
best to play, or what machines they play. Just like with ANY rope 'em
in promotion, all they want is players and more players who'll stay
longer than they should. Dancer provides that service, and that's why
they pay him and why they won't let me teach for free.
I think the old expression
fits nicely here ... you can a horse to water but you can't make
him drink.
I think I know what you said.
> Little dicky will come on here and say (and this is a true
> compliment) "Bob Dancer, in addition to being paid to rope in
> customers, is allowed to beat the hell out of them no
problem". "But what he does is reel 'em in to class, get them to
stay and play, and the casino racks up the profits from
his 'students'.
That's why the casino lets him teach. You didn't think they
actually want us to win, did you? They realize that the vast majority
of players will not practice or stick to the strategies. If everyone
did they wouldn't let Bob teach, plain and simple.
So to go along with your on-going theory here, please enlighten us as
to how they are also willing to allow Bob to blatantly win so much so
often. Playing $1million/month at the minimum 1.5% he claims to have
an average edge -- in addition to the $250/class he gets paid --
means that class is also worth $180,000/year to them! Just to get a
bunch of low-life locals to play low limit video poker. Hmmm....Maybe
he doesn't win as he SAYS he does...... Could the flag be colored
RED!!
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@...> wrote:
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Luke Fuller" <kungalooosh@...>
wrote:
Hey, Rob. That was a very logical response.
It is obvious (to me) that the casinos do not want someone teaching a
classabout how to "win." They want a class taught about how
to "play." Mr.Dancer seems to be exactly what they want.
Get ready to be accused of being me! That's little dicky's first
response when he hears common sense coming from anyone else.
It's amazes me how many people can't see this.
In time you'll find what I did. Most people DO realize this. What
you're seeing here in little dicky is a mutation of the rational human
being. He has a disease called problem gambling, he sees others who
have it that SAY they play like he does so it's "OK", and he becomes
irrevocably irritated and hurt by my openness and truthfulness about it
all, so he writhes in illogic and pain as I continuously punish him.
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@...>
wrote:
> > First, you need to know that I have brought up MY teaching
class
at that location--and unlike Bob Dancer does. I offered to do it
FOR
> FREE. The response? "We know who you are, and we don't want
someone
teaching our playing customers to 'hit & run'. We want them to stay
for hours playing what they like to play".> Not surprising for several reasons. First, you are a nobody with
a
> flawed system.
Yoo-Hoo little dicky!! THEY didn't think so!!
Are you really this dense. Did you think their refusal meant they
thought they would lose money if people used your system? LMAO.
>Second, casinos will always want people to play longer.
HELLO McFly!!--Anybody HOME in there?? First you say I have
a 'flawed
system'
That's right. It's not mathematically sound.
which you then go on to fully support by saying casinos want
people to play longer.
No, it does not support your system. Playing negative games is
mathematically flawed, however, most of these people will not play
well with ANY system which has the same result and that's exactly
what the casino wants. Why would the casino hire anyone that would
preach playing once a month? Even though they would still lose they
would play less. It's really that simple.
>They look at the AVERAGE player who will NOT play with an
> advantage even after taking the class.Now THAT's certainly supreme brilliance. All they care about is
three
things: To get as many suckers in to his class--and their casino--
as
possible;
Agreed.
to keep them at the machines as long as they can;
You're repeating what I just said. You could have just said "You're
right" and saved a lot of typing.
and to
get Mr. Chairman/Big Shot/Millionaire Club to do EXACTLY the same
things.
I doubt it. However, Bob plays a slightly negative game (9-5 SDB) at
Fiesta. His gain is through slot club benefits. In the past his level
of play improved his chances at drawings, etc. So, his profit didn't
cost the casino a thing. It came out of the promotions ... meaning
other players' pockets.
They don't give two shoots if the players and he (and of
course the poor missus being dragged along) know how to play,
They care. They want them to know just enough to feel confident, but
not enough to beat them. That is their business you know.
what's
best to play, or what machines they play. Just like with ANY
rope 'em
in promotion, all they want is players and more players who'll stay
longer than they should. Dancer provides that service, and that's
why
they pay him and why they won't let me teach for free.
You forgot to add that your name alone would probably drive people
away. Not a good business propostion.
>I think the old expression
> fits nicely here ... you can a horse to water but you can't make
him drink.I think I know what you said.
Good, then you understand that one or two lessons will not make APers.
> > Little dicky will come on here and say (and this is a true
> > compliment) "Bob Dancer, in addition to being paid to rope in
> > customers, is allowed to beat the hell out of them no
> problem". "But what he does is reel 'em in to class, get them to
stay and play, and the casino racks up the profits from
his 'students'.> That's why the casino lets him teach. You didn't think they
actually want us to win, did you? They realize that the vast
majority
of players will not practice or stick to the strategies. If
everyone
did they wouldn't let Bob teach, plain and simple.
So to go along with your on-going theory here, please enlighten us
as
to how they are also willing to allow Bob to blatantly win so much
so
often.
I'm only familar with Fiesta and I already explained that.
Playing $1million/month at the minimum 1.5% he claims to have
an average edge --
I don't think his edge was that great at Fiesta. SDB is a negative
game and the points only go so far (especially since they eliminated
gas). Of course, he could be including the class fee as part of the
edge.
in addition to the $250/class he gets paid --
means that class is also worth $180,000/year to them! Just to get a
bunch of low-life locals to play low limit video poker.
Maybe that's why they don't do it anymore.
Hmmm....Maybe he doesn't win as he SAYS he does......
I don't know, why don't you challenge him with a bet? Otherwise
you're just blowing smoke.
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@>
wrote:First, you need to know that I have brought up MY teaching
class at that location--and unlike Bob Dancer does. I offered to do
it FOR FREE. The response? "We know who you are, and we don't want
someone teaching our playing customers to 'hit & run'. We want them
to stay for hours playing what they like to play".
> > Not surprising for several reasons. First, you are a nobody
with a flawed system.
> Yoo-Hoo little dicky!! THEY didn't think so!!
Are you really this dense. Did you think their refusal meant they
thought they would lose money if people used your system? LMAO.
Let me think this toughy over for abut 2 hours.....OK. Yup. And
that's why you're wearing the dunce cap and I'm not.
> >Second, casinos will always want people to play longer.
>
> HELLO McFly!!--Anybody HOME in there?? First you say I have
a 'flawed system'
That's right. It's not mathematically sound.
In a classroom and to a neurotic geek. But that's not what's
important here now is it?? It's casino-tested and profitably sound,
and, after all, do we play in order to try to make a showing as close
as possible to some foolish math models--or are we playing for the
casino's MONEY!? Duh!!
> which you then go on to fully support by saying casinos want
> people to play longer.No, it does not support your system.
Wrong. By supporting your system you're directly agreeing with
casinos who simply want people to sit down and keep on playing--even
after they win.
Playing negative games is mathematically flawed
On paper, not actually.
however, most of these people will not play well with ANY system
which has the same result and that's exactly what the casino wants.
Yes, most or all of the people who go to his class will not play well
or ever come to have the knowledge he has under any circumstances.
Why would the casino hire anyone that would preach playing once a
month?
Here's where you exhibit a poor knowledge of what I teach. I don't
ever tell anyone when or how often they should be playing. That's the
beauty of having a short-term strategy under your belt. As often or
as little as you like--doesn't matter. It's much more important to be
comfortable with what you're doing, making sure you have the proper
bankroll, have reasonable goals, have the discipline and
determination to always do what you say you're going to do, never to
be a slave to the slot club card, to stay away from the greed factor
(going up in denomination after a big win/playing beyond your comfort
zone) and to enjoy your efforts. I used to be comfortable playing a
session almost every week. Now my comfort zone is once a month, and I
may play more than one session/trip. You'll find a whole lot more
people see the sense in this strategy than what you do. The casino
execs do. That's why I'm not allowed to teach.
Even though they would still lose they would play less. It's really
that simple.
False statement. Most of the people I train win where they lost after
following long-term strategy.
>They look at the AVERAGE player who will NOT play with an
> advantage even after taking the class.
> Now THAT's certainly supreme brilliance. All they care about is
three things: To get as many suckers in to his class--and their
casino--as possible;
Agreed.
> to keep them at the machines as long as they can;
You're repeating what I just said. You could have just said "You're
right" and saved a lot of typing.
Was that necessary?
> and to get Mr. Chairman/Big Shot/Millionaire Club to do EXACTLY
the same things.
I doubt it. However, Bob plays a slightly negative game (9-5 SDB)
at Fiesta. His gain is through slot club benefits. In the past his
level of play improved his chances at drawings, etc. So, his profit
didn't cost the casino a thing. It came out of the promotions ...
meaning other players' pockets.
So you're saying he doesn't quite make his publically-
advertised/perceived positive percentage rate on that million buck-a-
month deal, but because the casino has OTHER UNRELATED-TO-Bob-Dancer
events/promos, they're covered. Incredible. So is that how he wins
the pile of cash from all those casinos every year without a blink!
They just 'look the other way' when he comes in, figuring "oh well,
why don't we let this famous guy win and we'll get it back from the
little guys"! Please.
> They don't give two shoots if the players and he (and of
> course the poor missus being dragged along) know how to play,They care. They want them to know just enough to feel confident,
but not enough to beat them. That is their business you know.
I though you just said he beats them with those dumb club benefits??
Or was it that sunny day.....
> what's best to play, or what machines they play. Just like with
ANY rope 'em in promotion, all they want is players and more players
who'll stay longer than they should. Dancer provides that service,
and that's why they pay him and why they won't let me teach for free.
You forgot to add that your name alone would probably drive people
away. Not a good business propostion.
That's interesting. I've been talking to some LV people about my
having an off-casino seminar. The first thing to pop into everyone's
minds was not only how many players would flock to it--but how many
of those who criticize me would also be there to learn. I'd be sort
of like the scenario of the sports scene in boston in
the '60's/'70's: The Town Deserves More Than The Celtics. And you've
seen what's happened....
> >I think the old expression
> > fits nicely here ... you can a horse to water but you can't
make him drink.
> I think I know what you said.
Good, then you understand that one or two lessons will not make
APers.
It's not the lessons that these misleds are bolstered by. It's the
practicing at home that causes them their overall false confidence &
trouble.
> So to go along with your on-going theory here, please enlighten
us as to how they are also willing to allow Bob to blatantly win so
much so often.
I'm only familar with Fiesta and I already explained that.
So LV and wherever he goes to play is safe, because every casino
where he rapes always has an excuse for letting him do so....
> Playing $1million/month at the minimum 1.5% he claims to have
> an average edge --
I don't think his edge was that great at Fiesta. SDB is a negative
game and the points only go so far (especially since they
eliminated gas). Of course, he could be including the class fee as
part of the edge.
OK. I'll accept that.
> in addition to the $250/class he gets paid --
> means that class is also worth $180,000/year to them! Just to get
a bunch of low-life locals to play low limit video poker.
Maybe that's why they don't do it anymore.
Yeah, eliminate the class of nickel players, but allow him to make
his automatic $180k. Makes sense.
> Hmmm....Maybe he doesn't win as he SAYS he does......
I don't know, why don't you challenge him with a bet? Otherwise
you're just blowing smoke.
Been there, done that. No one's interested anymore. They've heard
enough of my sense on the subject to have a solid position
understood. Besides, I've agreed not to make those offers/challenges
any more.
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@...> wrote:
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@...>
wrote:
First, you need to know that I have brought up MY teaching
> class at that location--and unlike Bob Dancer does. I offered to
do
it FOR FREE. The response? "We know who you are, and we don't want
> someone teaching our playing customers to 'hit & run'. We want
them
to stay for hours playing what they like to play".
> > > Not surprising for several reasons. First, you are a nobody
with a flawed system.> > Yoo-Hoo little dicky!! THEY didn't think so!!
> Are you really this dense. Did you think their refusal meant they
> thought they would lose money if people used your system? LMAO.Let me think this toughy over for abut 2 hours.....OK. Yup. And
that's why you're wearing the dunce cap and I'm not.
LMAO. You really are that dense.
> > >Second, casinos will always want people to play longer.
> >
> > HELLO McFly!!--Anybody HOME in there?? First you say I have
> a 'flawed system'> That's right. It's not mathematically sound.
In a classroom and to a neurotic geek. But that's not what's
important here now is it??
Yes.
It's casino-tested and profitably sound,
Lie. Let me know when you have the results for 1000 people who have
100 sessions or more in a real casino. PS. I already have them using
my simulator. Not good.
and, after all, do we play in order to try to make a showing as
close
as possible to some foolish math models--or are we playing for the
casino's MONEY!? Duh!!
The money, which is why using math models is intelligent. You
probably never use a map when travelling to strange locations.
> > which you then go on to fully support by saying casinos want
> > people to play longer.
>
> No, it does not support your system.Wrong. By supporting your system you're directly agreeing with
casinos who simply want people to sit down and keep on playing--
even
after they win.
Win or lose. They're looking for volume, pure and simple, and they
know most of these people will not play well.
>Playing negative games is mathematically flawed
On paper, not actually.
Yes, on paper and actually. Doesn't mean some people won't win, just
that many more will lose than using a mathematically sound approach.
>however, most of these people will not play well with ANY system
which has the same result and that's exactly what the casino wants.Yes, most or all of the people who go to his class will not play
well
or ever come to have the knowledge he has under any circumstances.
And, that is exactly why the casino has him teaching.
>Why would the casino hire anyone that would preach playing once a
month?Here's where you exhibit a poor knowledge of what I teach. I don't
ever tell anyone when or how often they should be playing.
Lie, you tell me I play too much all the time.
That's the
beauty of having a short-term strategy under your belt. As often or
as little as you like--doesn't matter. It's much more important to
be
comfortable with what you're doing, making sure you have the proper
bankroll, have reasonable goals, have the discipline and
determination to always do what you say you're going to do, never
to
be a slave to the slot club card, to stay away from the greed
factor
(going up in denomination after a big win/playing beyond your
comfort
zone) and to enjoy your efforts. I used to be comfortable playing a
session almost every week. Now my comfort zone is once a month, and
I
may play more than one session/trip. You'll find a whole lot more
people see the sense in this strategy than what you do. The casino
execs do. That's why I'm not allowed to teach.
Many of these items make sense (which is why most APers do them). If
you'd combine them with playing positive games then we'd be a lot
closer to agreeing. Like I've told you many times, the math models
are infallible. Incorporate that message into your system and you'll
be doing much better. There's nothing inherently wrong with "hit and
run" or a progression AS LONG AS ONE PLAYS POSITIVE EXPECTATIONS.
>Even though they would still lose they would play less. It's
really
that simple.
False statement. Most of the people I train win where they lost
after
following long-term strategy.
Lie. Give me the results for just a 100 people playing 100 sessions.
>They look at the AVERAGE player who will NOT play with an
> > advantage even after taking the class.> > Now THAT's certainly supreme brilliance. All they care about is
> three things: To get as many suckers in to his class--and their
casino--as possible;> Agreed.
> > to keep them at the machines as long as they can;
>
> You're repeating what I just said. You could have just
said "You're
> right" and saved a lot of typing.
Was that necessary?
Yes. When you make it sound like you were saying it first.
> > and to get Mr. Chairman/Big Shot/Millionaire Club to do EXACTLY
the same things.> I doubt it. However, Bob plays a slightly negative game (9-5 SDB)
at Fiesta. His gain is through slot club benefits. In the past his
level of play improved his chances at drawings, etc. So, his profit
didn't cost the casino a thing. It came out of the promotions ...
meaning other players' pockets.So you're saying he doesn't quite make his publically-
advertised/perceived positive percentage rate on that million buck-
a-
month deal, but because the casino has OTHER UNRELATED-TO-Bob-
Dancer
events/promos, they're covered. Incredible.
Like I said below, I don't know. I'm just giving you possible ways
that could be used to increase EV. There may be other factors as
well. Each class he gives is an advertisement for his products. He
may factor in additional sales as well. It's all part of having good
business sense.
So is that how he wins
the pile of cash from all those casinos every year without a blink!
They just 'look the other way' when he comes in, figuring "oh well,
why don't we let this famous guy win and we'll get it back from the
little guys"! Please.
You're reading comprehension is a poor as ever. I said he was playing
a NEGATIVE game and so the casino doesn't take much of a hit.
> > They don't give two shoots if the players and he (and of
> > course the poor missus being dragged along) know how to play,
>
> They care. They want them to know just enough to feel confident,
but not enough to beat them. That is their business you know.I though you just said he beats them with those dumb club
benefits??
Or was it that sunny day.....
No, I said he profits through the promotions. The casino doesn't care
if Bob or I win the promotion ... Up until the point that people
start complaining and quit coming.
> > what's best to play, or what machines they play. Just like with
ANY rope 'em in promotion, all they want is players and more
players
who'll stay longer than they should. Dancer provides that service,
and that's why they pay him and why they won't let me teach for
free.
> You forgot to add that your name alone would probably drive
people
> away. Not a good business propostion.
That's interesting. I've been talking to some LV people about my
having an off-casino seminar. The first thing to pop into
everyone's
minds was not only how many players would flock to it--but how many
of those who criticize me would also be there to learn.
I already know. Zero.
> > >I think the old expression
> > > fits nicely here ... you can a horse to water but you can't
make him drink.> > I think I know what you said.
> Good, then you understand that one or two lessons will not make
APers.It's not the lessons that these misleds are bolstered by. It's the
practicing at home that causes them their overall false confidence
&
trouble.
Another assertion, still no evidence. Don't you get tired of making
up this BS? Essentially, we are agreeing here but you seem to need to
make unproveable assertions no matter what. All that needs to be said
is that they aren't playing well enough to win over time.
> > So to go along with your on-going theory here, please enlighten
us as to how they are also willing to allow Bob to blatantly win so
much so often.> I'm only familar with Fiesta and I already explained that.
So LV and wherever he goes to play is safe, because every casino
where he rapes always has an excuse for letting him do so....
Try that one again, this time take your time.
> > Playing $1million/month at the minimum 1.5% he claims to have
> > an average edge --> I don't think his edge was that great at Fiesta. SDB is a
negative
> game and the points only go so far (especially since they
eliminated gas). Of course, he could be including the class fee as
part of the edge.OK. I'll accept that.
That's essentially what I said above only I added in promotions as
well.
> > in addition to the $250/class he gets paid --
> > means that class is also worth $180,000/year to them! Just to
get
a bunch of low-life locals to play low limit video poker.
> Maybe that's why they don't do it anymore.
Yeah, eliminate the class of nickel players, but allow him to make
his automatic $180k. Makes sense.
To my knowledge he's never said he makes $180K there.
> > Hmmm....Maybe he doesn't win as he SAYS he does......
>
> I don't know, why don't you challenge him with a bet? Otherwise
> you're just blowing smoke.Been there, done that. No one's interested anymore.
Right. wink, wink.
They've heard
enough of my sense on the subject to have a solid position
understood. Besides, I've agreed not to make those
offers/challenges
any more.
That is a good idea since you normally back out of them and look
foolish.
I must say, I didn't know this would start such a heated debate. I'm
sorry. I'm just trying to understand the best way to approach
learning VP.
After reading hours of posts on this site and others, I have come up
with my own conclusions.
IMHO, I believe that none of the so-called VP professionals are
actually winning money consistently. The reason I say that is,
I see that Bob Dancer, Jean Scott and other famous VP professionals
are very recognizable. If they truly did have an advantage, the
casinos would have tagged them and put them in their "little black
book."
I used to play BJ and a card counter has about a %1 advantage when
playing, but if a casino suspects you of counting, they will ask you
to leave.
I can promise you the BJ team from MIT is not welcomed in any casino,
yet they only held a slight advantage.
I have concluded that "VP professionals" make the majority of their
money from books, tapes, seminars, etc......which there is nothing
wrong with that. However, I don't appreciated them selling false
hopes to VP players.
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@>
wrote:
> First, you need to know that I have brought up MY teaching
> > class at that location--and unlike Bob Dancer does. I offered
to
do
> it FOR FREE. The response? "We know who you are, and we don't
want
> > someone teaching our playing customers to 'hit & run'. We want
them
> to stay for hours playing what they like to play".
>
> > > > Not surprising for several reasons. First, you are a nobody
> with a flawed system.
>
> > > Yoo-Hoo little dicky!! THEY didn't think so!!
>
> > Are you really this dense. Did you think their refusal meant
they thought they would lose money if people used your system? LMAO.
>
> Let me think this toughy over for about 2 hours.....OK. Yup. And
> that's why you're wearing the dunce cap and I'm not.LMAO. You really are that dense.
And you are really wearing that dunce!
>
> > > >Second, casinos will always want people to play longer.
> > >
> > > HELLO McFly!!--Anybody HOME in there?? First you say I have
> > a 'flawed system'
>
> > That's right. It's not mathematically sound.
>
> In a classroom and to a neurotic geek. But that's not what's
> important here now is it??Yes.
No.
> It's casino-tested and profitably sound,
Lie. Let me know when you have the results for 1000 people who have
100 sessions or more in a real casino. PS. I already have them
using my simulator. Not good.
There's why you look like such a fool. You praise your
stupid "simulated results" and then ask for reality from people who
play my strategy. Of course, you'd never think of providing 100
people here who can prove what they claim IF they claim to have won
for 1000 casino visits. Nope. And here's another flash for little
dicky: There'a THOUSANDS of people who play a variation of my
strategies. I don't know how most of them do nor do I care. All I
know is I'm a unique talen who wins far more than anyone else. Is
there really anything more important in gambling than that?? Or does
that make you a whimpering wussy!
> and, after all, do we play in order to try to make a showing as
close
> as possible to some foolish math models--or are we playing for
the
> casino's MONEY!? Duh!!
The money, which is why using math models is intelligent. You
probably never use a map when travelling to strange locations.
So you use a 'math model' when playing? HAHAHAHA! Next one. No, i
never use a map when travelling. Just as in playing vp, I'm always
PREPARED and KNOWLEDGEABLE beforehand.
>
> > > which you then go on to fully support by saying casinos want
> > > people to play longer.
> >
> > No, it does not support your system.
Then you're double-talking yourself.
>
> Wrong. By supporting your system you're directly agreeing with
> casinos who simply want people to sit down and keep on playing--
even after they win.Win or lose. They're looking for volume, pure and simple, and they
know most of these people will not play well.
So what. Is that supposed to be a revelation?
>
> >Playing negative games is mathematically flawed
>
> On paper, not actually.Yes, on paper and actually. Doesn't mean some people won't win,
just that many more will lose than using a mathematically sound
approach.
Reality: I win on negative EV games ALL THE TIME. Theory: AP's SHOLD
win something before they step into their graves. Which path do you
think people looking to win every time they play would choose. Next.
>
> >however, most of these people will not play well with ANY system
> which has the same result and that's exactly what the casino
wants.
>
> Yes, most or all of the people who go to his class will not play
well or ever come to have the knowledge he has under any
circumstances.
And, that is exactly why the casino has him teaching.
And you think everybody but you and he are stupid. Here's a flash:
His million-a-month is why he was teaching, and he was terminated
because they know that anybody foolish enough to pathologically
gamble that much would come in anyway--fired or not--because he has
no control over what he does.
>
> >Why would the casino hire anyone that would preach playing once
a month?
>
> Here's where you exhibit a poor knowledge of what I teach. I
don't ever tell anyone when or how often they should be playing.
Lie, you tell me I play too much all the time.
Incorrect. I'm telling a certified addict how much they should NOT be
playing.
> That's the
> beauty of having a short-term strategy under your belt. As often
or as little as you like--doesn't matter. It's much more important to
be comfortable with what you're doing, making sure you have the
proper bankroll, have reasonable goals, have the discipline and
> determination to always do what you say you're going to do, never
to be a slave to the slot club card, to stay away from the greed
factor (going up in denomination after a big win/playing beyond
your comfort zone) and to enjoy your efforts. I used to be
comfortable playing a session almost every week. Now my comfort zone
is once a month, and I may play more than one session/trip. You'll
find a whole lot more people see the sense in this strategy than what
you do. The casino execs do. That's why I'm not allowed to teach.
Many of these items make sense (which is why most APers do them).
And by that you mean you and the others ARE NOT slaves to the slot
culbs?
If
you'd combine them with playing positive games then we'd be a lot
closer to agreeing. Like I've told you many times, the math models
are infallible. Incorporate that message into your system and
you'll be doing much better. There's nothing inherently wrong
with "hit and run" or a progression AS LONG AS ONE PLAYS POSITIVE
EXPECTATIONS.
First, positive EV games do not about at the resorts I like to play
at in any denominations, and I'm not one to manufacture a posotove
play out of thin air like the AP's do. Second, the typical +EV games
are not mathematically compatible with short-term strategy, which by
definition requires around 5% of the plays to go against optimal play.
>
> >Even though they would still lose they would play less. It's
really that simple.
>
> False statement. Most of the people I train win where they lost
after following long-term strategy.Lie. Give me the results for just a 100 people playing 100 sessions.
These people write me all the time. I believe what they say because
they make perfect sense and I trust them. You believe your AP friends
win because you trust them--not because you know anything about the
truth of what they do. At that point common sense takes over, and
that's why I win all of these debates.
>
> >They look at the AVERAGE player who will NOT play with an
> > > advantage even after taking the class.
>
> > > Now THAT's certainly supreme brilliance. All they care about
is three things: To get as many suckers in to his class--and their
> casino--as possible;
>
> > Agreed.
>
> > > to keep them at the machines as long as they can;
> >
> > You're repeating what I just said. You could have just
said "You're right" and saved a lot of typing.
>
> Was that necessary?Yes. When you make it sound like you were saying it first.
I'm already one-up on you in just about evertyhing else. Why start
worrying now?
>
> > > and to get Mr. Chairman/Big Shot/Millionaire Club to do
EXACTLY the same things.
>
> > I doubt it. However, Bob plays a slightly negative game (9-5
SDB)
> at Fiesta. His gain is through slot club benefits. In the past
his
> level of play improved his chances at drawings, etc. So, his
profit
> didn't cost the casino a thing. It came out of the promotions ...
> meaning other players' pockets.
>
> So you're saying he doesn't quite make his publicly-
> advertised/perceived positive percentage rate on that million
buck-a-month deal, but because the casino has OTHER UNRELATED-TO-Bob-
Dancer events/promos, they're covered. Incredible.
Like I said below, I don't know. I'm just giving you possible ways
that could be used to increase EV. There may be other factors as
well. Each class he gives is an advertisement for his products. He
may factor in additional sales as well. It's all part of having
good business sense.
You're unable to convince me that, with my facts that I know about
him along with abounding common sense, that I am not totally correct.
> So is that how he wins
> the pile of cash from all those casinos every year without a
blink!
> They just 'look the other way' when he comes in, figuring "oh
well,
> why don't we let this famous guy win and we'll get it back from
the
> little guys"! Please.
You're reading comprehension is a poor as ever. I said he was
playing a NEGATIVE game and so the casino doesn't take much of a hit.
No, just a $180k hit--or is that some of those phantom bucks he tries
in vain to deposit the next day? After all, he's getting them not
only from Stations--but every casino in town!
>
> > > They don't give two shoots if the players and he (and of
> > > course the poor missus being dragged along) know how to play,
> >
> > They care. They want them to know just enough to feel
confident,
> but not enough to beat them. That is their business you know.
>
> I though you just said he beats them with those dumb club
benefits?? Or was it that sunny day.....No, I said he profits through the promotions. The casino doesn't
care if Bob or I win the promotion ... Up until the point that people
start complaining and quit coming.
but they DO care how much you guys actually paid for those items won
in the drawings.
>
> > > what's best to play, or what machines they play. Just like
with
> ANY rope 'em in promotion, all they want is players and more
players
> who'll stay longer than they should. Dancer provides that
service,
> and that's why they pay him and why they won't let me teach for
free.
>
> > You forgot to add that your name alone would probably drive
people away. Not a good business propostion.
>
> That's interesting. I've been talking to some LV people about my
> having an off-casino seminar. The first thing to pop into
everyone's minds was not only how many players would flock to it--
but how many of those who criticize me would also be there to learn.
I already know. Zero.
We'll see. I expect not because some people are forever envious and
want to argue. But we'll see.
> > > >I think the old expression
> > > > fits nicely here ... you can a horse to water but you can't
> make him drink.
>
> > > I think I know what you said.
>
> > Good, then you understand that one or two lessons will not make
> APers.
>
> It's not the lessons that these misleds are bolstered by. It's
the practicing at home that causes them their overall false
confidence & trouble.
Another assertion, still no evidence.
I suppose if I told you my own experience supported this, it too
would be BS to you. Along with many many others who've followed in my
footsteps. But you expect what--signed affadavits?? You get one from
the Queen and I'll get 100 in one week from people who keep in
contact with me on it.
Don't you get tired of making
up this BS? Essentially, we are agreeing here but you seem to need
to make unproveable assertions no matter what. All that needs to be
said is that they aren't playing well enough to win over time.
You seem to be arguing unprovable facts and have no tolerance for
what other people say. A pessimist has never moved mountains.
>
> > > So to go along with your on-going theory here, please
enlighten us as to how they are also willing to allow Bob to
blatantly win so much so often.
>
> > I'm only familar with Fiesta and I already explained that.
>
> So LV and wherever he goes to play is safe, because every casino
> where he rapes always has an excuse for letting him do so....Try that one again, this time take your time.
You know what it says. You're just stalling for time.
> > > Playing $1million/month at the minimum 1.5% he claims to have
> > > an average edge --
>
> > I don't think his edge was that great at Fiesta. SDB is a
negative
> > game and the points only go so far (especially since they
> eliminated gas). Of course, he could be including the class fee
as
> part of the edge.
>
> OK. I'll accept that.That's essentially what I said above only I added in promotions as
well.
> > > in addition to the $250/class he gets paid --
> > > means that class is also worth $180,000/year to them! Just to
get
> a bunch of low-life locals to play low limit video poker.
>
> > Maybe that's why they don't do it anymore.
>
> Yeah, eliminate the class of nickel players, but allow him to
make
> his automatic $180k. Makes sense.
To my knowledge he's never said he makes $180K there.
$1million X his mythical 1.5% that he claims in his writings almost
never to play below = $180k. It's the same old tune: Assert the
unprovable, math-model it so it doesn't ever HAVE to be proven, then
slyly distribute the portrayal out there to as many suckers as
possible. Over time, make believe it 'happens' and talk up the money
part when it's only phantom bucks that he really eluding to.
>
> > > Hmmm....Maybe he doesn't win as he SAYS he does......
> >
> > I don't know, why don't you challenge him with a bet? Otherwise
> > you're just blowing smoke.
>
> Been there, done that. No one's interested anymore.Right. wink, wink.
> They've heard
> enough of my sense on the subject to have a solid position
> understood. Besides, I've agreed not to make those
offers/challenges
> any more.That is a good idea since you normally back out of them and look
foolish.
You need to read my article on you again.....
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@...> wrote:
IMHO, I believe that none of the so-called VP professionals are
actually winning money consistently. The reason I say that is,
I see that Bob Dancer, Jean Scott and other famous VP professionals
are very recognizable. If they truly did have an advantage, the
casinos would have tagged them and put them in their "little black
book."I used to play BJ and a card counter has about a %1 advantage
when playing, but if a casino suspects you of counting, they will ask
you to leave.I can promise you the BJ team from MIT is not welcomed
in any casino, yet they only held a slight advantage.
That's just too much common sense for little dicky to handle all in
one post by someone other than me!
I have concluded that "VP professionals" make the majority of their
money from books, tapes, seminars, etc......which there is nothing
wrong with that. However, I don't appreciated them selling false
hopes to VP players.
Wait till you get a loasd of what little dicky will respond to on
this! you just hit his nerve with that. He ADORES these gurus and
will defend them to the end, even at the risk of his own life.
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "truthseekr99" <ydoc21@...> wrote:
I must say, I didn't know this would start such a heated debate.
I'm
sorry. I'm just trying to understand the best way to approach
learning VP.After reading hours of posts on this site and others, I have come
up
with my own conclusions.
I suspect the hours would be better spent practicing the game of your
choice. The best way to improve your opportunity to win is to play
with a high degree of accuracy.
IMHO, I believe that none of the so-called VP professionals are
actually winning money consistently.
I always wonder how someone can conclude something like this when the
math says otherwise. If they can only find a .5% edge on a high
volatility game then the math predicts that they might only win 75%
of the years. So, if that doesn't meet yor criteria of "consistnetly
winning" then you may be right. The better the edge the more likely
they will win. With a 1% edge they will win almost every year.
The reason I say that is,
I see that Bob Dancer, Jean Scott and other famous VP professionals
are very recognizable. If they truly did have an advantage, the
casinos would have tagged them and put them in their "little black
book."
In fact, they are NOT allowed in some casinos (Bob Dancer at the
MGM). Also, they do not gamble with the their pen names. But I do
agree they are recognizeable because they tend to play high limits.
However, if you read my latest post you will see that they often make
their money through promotions which actually hurts other players
more than it does the casinos.
I used to play BJ and a card counter has about a %1 advantage when
playing, but if a casino suspects you of counting, they will ask
you
to leave.
Only if you're making large bets. The casinos generally don't offer
VP with a 1% edge at the higher denominations. That's why you'll see
the high denom players looking for progressives, multiple points and
valuable promotions.
I can promise you the BJ team from MIT is not welcomed in any
casino,
yet they only held a slight advantage.
I have concluded that "VP professionals" make the majority of their
money from books, tapes, seminars, etc......which there is nothing
wrong with that. However, I don't appreciated them selling false
hopes to VP players.
The facts about VP are simple. Learn the games well, find a good play
(at least 1% edge) and enjoy what you're doing. This isn't as easy as
it sounds and there are no guarantees.
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "truthseekr99" <ydoc21@...> wrote:
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@...>
wrote:
> > First, you need to know that I have brought up MY teaching
> > > class at that location--and unlike Bob Dancer does. I offered
to
> do
> > it FOR FREE. The response? "We know who you are, and we don't
want
> > > someone teaching our playing customers to 'hit & run'. We
want
> them
> > to stay for hours playing what they like to play".
> >
> > > > > Not surprising for several reasons. First, you are a
nobody
> > with a flawed system.
> >
> > > > Yoo-Hoo little dicky!! THEY didn't think so!!
> >
> > > Are you really this dense. Did you think their refusal meant
they thought they would lose money if people used your system? LMAO.
> >
> > Let me think this toughy over for about 2 hours.....OK. Yup.
And
> > that's why you're wearing the dunce cap and I'm not.
>
> LMAO. You really are that dense.And you are really wearing that dunce!
No. I'm just getting a good laugh that you are so stupid you'd
translate something this obvious into support for your system. Just
to help you out a little, those people passing you on the road, while
you're doddling in the left lane, with their middle finger high in
the air, are not claiming you're strategy is #1.
>
> >
> > > > >Second, casinos will always want people to play longer.
> > > >
> > > > HELLO McFly!!--Anybody HOME in there?? First you say I have
> > > a 'flawed system'
> >
> > > That's right. It's not mathematically sound.
> >
> > In a classroom and to a neurotic geek. But that's not what's
> > important here now is it??
>
> Yes.No.
Yes.
>
> > It's casino-tested and profitably sound,
>
> Lie. Let me know when you have the results for 1000 people who
have
> 100 sessions or more in a real casino. PS. I already have them
using my simulator. Not good.There's why you look like such a fool. You praise your
stupid "simulated results" and then ask for reality from people who
play my strategy. Of course, you'd never think of providing 100
people here who can prove what they claim IF they claim to have won
for 1000 casino visits. Nope.
Translation: He's knows most of them would lose but admitting it
would blow his con.
And here's another flash for little
dicky: There'a THOUSANDS of people who play a variation of my
strategies. I don't know how most of them do nor do I care.
Anybody surprised? If he cared, he wouldn't push a system that will
fail for most people.
All I
know is I'm a unique talen who wins far more than anyone else. Is
there really anything more important in gambling than that?? Or
does
that make you a whimpering wussy!
No, it shows everyone why I call you the monkey boy.
>
> > and, after all, do we play in order to try to make a showing as
> close
> > as possible to some foolish math models--or are we playing for
the
> > casino's MONEY!? Duh!!
>
> The money, which is why using math models is intelligent. You
> probably never use a map when travelling to strange locations.So you use a 'math model' when playing? HAHAHAHA! Next one.
"math models" is a phrase for analyzing different techniques. My
simulations of your strategy is basically a "math model". So, like it
or not, your strategy is defineable by math models just like any
other. And, to be complete, it produced worse results than any
strategy based on positive plays.
No, i
never use a map when travelling. Just as in playing vp, I'm always
PREPARED and KNOWLEDGEABLE beforehand.
QED.
>
> >
> > > > which you then go on to fully support by saying casinos
want
> > > > people to play longer.
> > >
> > > No, it does not support your system.Then you're double-talking yourself.
> >
> > Wrong. By supporting your system you're directly agreeing with
> > casinos who simply want people to sit down and keep on playing--
> even after they win.
>
> Win or lose. They're looking for volume, pure and simple, and
they
> know most of these people will not play well.
So what. Is that supposed to be a revelation?
>
> >
> > >Playing negative games is mathematically flawed
> >
> > On paper, not actually.
>
> Yes, on paper and actually. Doesn't mean some people won't win,
just that many more will lose than using a mathematically sound
approach.Reality: I win on negative EV games ALL THE TIME.
So do other idiots all over the country. Your point? If your ONLY
goal is to increase session wins then a progression will do that.
They've done that ever since Martingale introduced them. They are not
new and, most importantly, they do not change the expectation.
Theory: AP's SHOLD
win something before they step into their graves. Which path do you
think people looking to win every time they play would choose. Next.
AP, of course, those trying your approach will find out the hard way
that there are no shortcuts.
>
> >
> > >however, most of these people will not play well with ANY
system
> > which has the same result and that's exactly what the casino
wants.
> >
> > Yes, most or all of the people who go to his class will not
play
> well or ever come to have the knowledge he has under any
circumstances.
>
> And, that is exactly why the casino has him teaching.And you think everybody but you and he are stupid.
No, but you top the "stupid" list.
Here's a flash:
His million-a-month is why he was teaching, and he was terminated
because they know that anybody foolish enough to pathologically
gamble that much would come in anyway--fired or not--because he has
no control over what he does.
Lie. I often wonder who would believe someone who makes such idiotic
statements. By your statement you would think Bob should lose tens of
thousands every month. There's no way he could cover this by selling
stategy cards, etc. So how does he do it?
>
> >
> > >Why would the casino hire anyone that would preach playing
once
a month?
> >
> > Here's where you exhibit a poor knowledge of what I teach. I
don't ever tell anyone when or how often they should be playing.
>
> Lie, you tell me I play too much all the time.Incorrect. I'm telling a certified addict how much they should NOT
be
playing.
Same thing. Which makes your previous statement a lie.
> > That's the
> > beauty of having a short-term strategy under your belt. As
often
or as little as you like--doesn't matter. It's much more important
to
> be comfortable with what you're doing, making sure you have the
proper bankroll, have reasonable goals, have the discipline and
> > determination to always do what you say you're going to do,
never
> to be a slave to the slot club card, to stay away from the greed
> factor (going up in denomination after a big win/playing beyond
your comfort zone) and to enjoy your efforts. I used to be
comfortable playing a session almost every week. Now my comfort
zone
is once a month, and I may play more than one session/trip. You'll
find a whole lot more people see the sense in this strategy than
what
you do. The casino execs do. That's why I'm not allowed to teach.
>
> Many of these items make sense (which is why most APers do them).And by that you mean you and the others ARE NOT slaves to the slot
culbs?
Absolutely. APers USE the slot clubs to their advantage. Didn't you
know this? Is this another reason you failed as an APer?
If
> you'd combine them with playing positive games then we'd be a lot
> closer to agreeing. Like I've told you many times, the math
models
> are infallible. Incorporate that message into your system and
you'll be doing much better. There's nothing inherently wrong
with "hit and run" or a progression AS LONG AS ONE PLAYS POSITIVE
EXPECTATIONS.First, positive EV games do not about at the resorts I like to play
at in any denominations, and I'm not one to manufacture a posotove
play out of thin air like the AP's do.
There's nothing wrong with trading enjoyment for cash. However,
anyones' expectation over time will track to the EV they play. Some
will be lucky and track above the EV and some will track below it.
Second, the typical +EV games
are not mathematically compatible with short-term strategy, which
by
definition requires around 5% of the plays to go against optimal
play.
CON. The EV simply is. It is a MAXIMUM EV and can only be lowered by
modifications. Did I mention ... CON? I think we should rename your
special plays to the "special elixir" that will also cure the common
cold.
>
> >
> > >Even though they would still lose they would play less. It's
> really that simple.
> >
> > False statement. Most of the people I train win where they lost
> after following long-term strategy.
>
> Lie. Give me the results for just a 100 people playing 100
sessions.
These people write me all the time. I believe what they say because
they make perfect sense and I trust them. You believe your AP
friends
win because you trust them--not because you know anything about the
truth of what they do. At that point common sense takes over, and
that's why I win all of these debates.
Why don't you add a data collection web page to your site where
others can input their results along with the games they play. You
could run a constantly updating section to show overall results.
>
> >
> > >They look at the AVERAGE player who will NOT play with an
> > > > advantage even after taking the class.
> >
> > > > Now THAT's certainly supreme brilliance. All they care
about
is three things: To get as many suckers in to his class--and their
> > casino--as possible;
> >
> > > Agreed.
> >
> > > > to keep them at the machines as long as they can;
> > >
> > > You're repeating what I just said. You could have just
> said "You're right" and saved a lot of typing.
> >
> > Was that necessary?
>
> Yes. When you make it sound like you were saying it first.I'm already one-up on you in just about evertyhing else. Why start
worrying now?
More monkey boy babbling. How's the web page coming?
>
> >
> > > > and to get Mr. Chairman/Big Shot/Millionaire Club to do
EXACTLY the same things.
> >
> > > I doubt it. However, Bob plays a slightly negative game (9-5
SDB)
> > at Fiesta. His gain is through slot club benefits. In the past
his
> > level of play improved his chances at drawings, etc. So, his
profit
> > didn't cost the casino a thing. It came out of the
promotions ...
> > meaning other players' pockets.
> >
> > So you're saying he doesn't quite make his publicly-
> > advertised/perceived positive percentage rate on that million
buck-a-month deal, but because the casino has OTHER UNRELATED-TO-
Bob-
> Dancer events/promos, they're covered. Incredible.
>
> Like I said below, I don't know. I'm just giving you possible
ways
> that could be used to increase EV. There may be other factors as
> well. Each class he gives is an advertisement for his products.
He
> may factor in additional sales as well. It's all part of having
good business sense.You're unable to convince me that, with my facts that I know about
him along with abounding common sense, that I am not totally
correct.
You haven't stated any facts. Only conjecture and outright lies.
>
> > So is that how he wins
> > the pile of cash from all those casinos every year without a
blink!
> > They just 'look the other way' when he comes in, figuring "oh
well,
> > why don't we let this famous guy win and we'll get it back from
the
> > little guys"! Please.
>
> You're reading comprehension is a poor as ever. I said he was
playing a NEGATIVE game and so the casino doesn't take much of a
hit.
No, just a $180k hit--or is that some of those phantom bucks he
tries
in vain to deposit the next day? After all, he's getting them not
only from Stations--but every casino in town!
You're numbers, not mine ... or his. The only way for you to convince
anyone that Bob is losing is to challenge him with a bet.
>
> >
> > > > They don't give two shoots if the players and he (and of
> > > > course the poor missus being dragged along) know how to
play,
> > >
> > > They care. They want them to know just enough to feel
confident,
> > but not enough to beat them. That is their business you know.
> >
> > I though you just said he beats them with those dumb club
> benefits?? Or was it that sunny day.....
>
> No, I said he profits through the promotions. The casino doesn't
care if Bob or I win the promotion ... Up until the point that
people
> start complaining and quit coming.
but they DO care how much you guys actually paid for those items
won
in the drawings.
As a group. The casino looks at promotions for volume/profit. As long
as those numbers are good they don't care which individuals profit
most from the promotion.
>
> >
> > > > what's best to play, or what machines they play. Just like
with
> > ANY rope 'em in promotion, all they want is players and more
> players
> > who'll stay longer than they should. Dancer provides that
service,
> > and that's why they pay him and why they won't let me teach for
> free.
> >
> > > You forgot to add that your name alone would probably drive
> people away. Not a good business propostion.
> >
> > That's interesting. I've been talking to some LV people about
my
> > having an off-casino seminar. The first thing to pop into
> everyone's minds was not only how many players would flock to it--
but how many of those who criticize me would also be there to
learn.
>
> I already know. Zero.We'll see. I expect not because some people are forever envious and
want to argue. But we'll see.
There will usually be someone interested in the TRUTH.
>
> > > > >I think the old expression
> > > > > fits nicely here ... you can a horse to water but you
can't
> > make him drink.
> >
> > > > I think I know what you said.
> >
> > > Good, then you understand that one or two lessons will not
make
> > APers.
> >
> > It's not the lessons that these misleds are bolstered by. It's
the practicing at home that causes them their overall false
confidence & trouble.
>
> Another assertion, still no evidence.I suppose if I told you my own experience supported this, it too
would be BS to you.
No, I just said you provided no evidence. I think it's all over the
map. Some will be bolstered immediately, some will do a little
practice, think they're good, build up confidence and then quit
practicing altogether. The casinos base their decision on the AVERAGE
class attendee who will not be good enough to beat them no matter
what route they take. Only a few will make the effort necessary to be
successful over time and the casinos tolerate them.
Don't you get tired of making
> up this BS? Essentially, we are agreeing here but you seem to
need
to make unproveable assertions no matter what. All that needs to be
said is that they aren't playing well enough to win over time.You seem to be arguing unprovable facts and have no tolerance for
what other people say. A pessimist has never moved mountains.
No, I'm challenging your unproven assertions.
>
> >
> > > > So to go along with your on-going theory here, please
enlighten us as to how they are also willing to allow Bob to
blatantly win so much so often.
> >
> > > I'm only familar with Fiesta and I already explained that.
> >
> > So LV and wherever he goes to play is safe, because every
casino
> > where he rapes always has an excuse for letting him do so....
>
> Try that one again, this time take your time.You know what it says. You're just stalling for time.
I can't speak to generalizations. You have to go over each case. That
is exactly what Bob says he does. He analyzes every play. It is also
what I do, but it's easier for me playing at lower denoms because I'm
below the radar.
> > > > Playing $1million/month at the minimum 1.5% he claims to
have
> > > > an average edge --
> >
> > > I don't think his edge was that great at Fiesta. SDB is a
> negative
> > > game and the points only go so far (especially since they
> > eliminated gas). Of course, he could be including the class fee
as
> > part of the edge.
> >
> > OK. I'll accept that.
>
> That's essentially what I said above only I added in promotions
as
> well.
> > > > in addition to the $250/class he gets paid --
> > > > means that class is also worth $180,000/year to them! Just
to
> get
> > a bunch of low-life locals to play low limit video poker.
> >
> > > Maybe that's why they don't do it anymore.
> >
> > Yeah, eliminate the class of nickel players, but allow him to
make
> > his automatic $180k. Makes sense.
>
> To my knowledge he's never said he makes $180K there.$1million X his mythical 1.5% that he claims in his writings almost
never to play below = $180k.
Is this the new math? In any event, I don't believe Bob could come up
with 1.5% playing SDB at Fiesta, even at 5X points and with
promotions ... unless he can generate enough added sales of his
products.
It's the same old tune: Assert the
unprovable, math-model it so it doesn't ever HAVE to be proven,
then
slyly distribute the portrayal out there to as many suckers as
possible. Over time, make believe it 'happens' and talk up the
money
part when it's only phantom bucks that he really eluding to.
I can only talk to my own winnings. No one but Bob knows what the
Fiesta play was worth to him. Why don't you ask him?
>
> >
> > > > Hmmm....Maybe he doesn't win as he SAYS he does......
> > >
> > > I don't know, why don't you challenge him with a bet?
Otherwise
> > > you're just blowing smoke.
> >
> > Been there, done that. No one's interested anymore.
>
> Right. wink, wink.
>
> > They've heard
> > enough of my sense on the subject to have a solid position
> > understood. Besides, I've agreed not to make those
> offers/challenges
> > any more.
>
> That is a good idea since you normally back out of them and look
> foolish.You need to read my article on you again.....
Sorry, still haven't read it. Looks like I never will since you're
afraid to copy it here and have me tear it apart (that is, if it
exists at all).
In fact, they are NOT allowed in some casinos (Bob Dancer at the
MGM).
Good thing I'm here to straighten this type of misconception out. Bob
Dancer is not barred or banned anywhere and never has been. He has
been restricted on the slot card benefits somewhat in the past at MGM
Grand and probably believes he still is now. But if you read his book
you'd see he played a ton there, got a ton of free gifts, and also
got caught manipulating the comp system. He is a master at creating
perceptions in vulnerable/needy advantage players.
Also, they do not gamble with the their pen names. But I do
agree they are recognizeable because they tend to play high limits.
However, if you read my latest post you will see that they often
make their money through promotions which actually hurts other
players more than it does the casinos.
You mean like the Advantage Player who won the car at Terrible's
worth $21k and lost $28k piling up the drawing tickets? You mean like
the famous guru who won the car at the Palms worth $24k but lost $38k
piling up the drawing tickets? It's so easy making others who have an
inherent need to believe that advantage play works, to buy into
certain scenarios of prowess when nothing has to be proven. That's
why I do checks on claims, and why I'm more than happy to serve up
the truth whenever it's helpful to my readers.
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@...> wrote:
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@>
wrote:
> > > First, you need to know that I have brought up MY teaching
> > > > class at that location--and unlike Bob Dancer does. I
offered
> to
> > do
> > > it FOR FREE. The response? "We know who you are, and we don't
> want
> > > > someone teaching our playing customers to 'hit & run'. We
want
> > them
> > > to stay for hours playing what they like to play".
> > >
> > > > > > Not surprising for several reasons. First, you are a
nobody
> > > with a flawed system.
> > >
> > > > > Yoo-Hoo little dicky!! THEY didn't think so!!
> > >
> > > > Are you really this dense. Did you think their refusal
meant
> they thought they would lose money if people used your system?
LMAO.
> > >
> > > Let me think this toughy over for about 2 hours.....OK. Yup.
And
> > > that's why you're wearing the dunce cap and I'm not.
> >
> > LMAO. You really are that dense.
>
> And you are really wearing that dunce!No. I'm just getting a good laugh that you are so stupid you'd
translate something this obvious into support for your system. Just
to help you out a little, those people passing you on the road,
while you're doddling in the left lane, with their middle finger high
in the air, are not claiming you're strategy is #1.
All that confirms is that you enjoy wearing your dunce cap.
> > > It's casino-tested and profitably sound,
> >
> > Lie. Let me know when you have the results for 1000 people who
have
> > 100 sessions or more in a real casino. PS. I already have them
> using my simulator. Not good.
>
> There's why you look like such a fool. You praise your
> stupid "simulated results" and then ask for reality from people
who
> play my strategy. Of course, you'd never think of providing 100
> people here who can prove what they claim IF they claim to have
won
> for 1000 casino visits. Nope.
Translation: He's knows most of them would lose but admitting it
would blow his con.
It's simple theory vs. reality again, and you lose that one every
time.
> And here's another flash for little
> dicky: There'a THOUSANDS of people who play a variation of my
> strategies. I don't know how most of them do nor do I care.Anybody surprised? If he cared, he wouldn't push a system that will
fail for most people.
Wrong again. Players are taught, they move on, and they usually write
me later thanking me for helping them win for a change. Caring by me
makes no difference. I did the right thing and they have a free will.
When you think of the misery long-term strategy brings and how much
it costs and who you paid to get it from, Singer is like a guardian
angel.
> All I
> know is I'm a unique talent who wins far more than anyone else.
Is
> there really anything more important in gambling than that?? Or
does
> that make you a whimpering wussy!No, it shows everyone why I call you the monkey boy.
I was right!
> > The money, which is why using math models is intelligent. You
> > probably never use a map when travelling to strange locations.
>
> So you use a 'math model' when playing? HAHAHAHA! Next one."math models" is a phrase for analyzing different techniques. My
simulations of your strategy is basically a "math model". So, like
it or not, your strategy is defineable by math models just like any
other. And, to be complete, it produced worse results than any
strategy based on positive plays.
"Defineable"? HAHA! You don't even know the full parameters and made
up part of it. That alone constitutes questionable geek-methodology.
Like I said, cutting corners to attain comfort-zone goals isn't
something taken lightly, and if you worked for me then you'd have
been fired years ago. And all you did was run a constant model
without the programmed hot/cold cycles that are inherent in real
machines.
Yes, on paper and actually. Doesn't mean some people won't win,
> just that many more will lose than using a mathematically sound
> approach.
>
> Reality: I win on negative EV games ALL THE TIME.So do other idiots all over the country.
Give me your facts and I'll give you mine: $683.7k over 258 sessions?
I'll take idiots like that every time! The 2004 Red Sox called
themselves idiots too!
> Here's a flash:
> His million-a-month is why he was teaching, and he was terminated
> because they know that anybody foolish enough to pathologically
> gamble that much would come in anyway--fired or not--because he
has no control over what he does.
Lie. I often wonder who would believe someone who makes such
idiotic statements. By your statement you would think Bob should lose
tens of thousands every month. There's no way he could cover this by
selling stategy cards, etc. So how does he do it?
You're such a confused personality with far less understanding of
what goes on out there than you portray. He obviously makes lots of
money in his business, and that's exactly what compulsive players use
to gamble with. He doesn't lose all the time of course, and if you
look at his W2G totals I'm sure it would floor you. But why do you
think he works--because he doesn't want to play video poker all the
time!?
> > > Here's where you exhibit a poor knowledge of what I teach. I
> don't ever tell anyone when or how often they should be playing.
> >
> > Lie, you tell me I play too much all the time.
>
> Incorrect. I'm telling a certified addict how much they should
NOT be playing.
Same thing. Which makes your previous statement a lie.
Denial, which makes your previous denial look even more dumb.
> And by that you mean you and the others ARE NOT slaves to the
slot culbs?
Absolutely. APers USE the slot clubs to their advantage. Didn't you
know this? Is this another reason you failed as an APer?
One of my favorite scenarios at casinos is watching the AP JUMP out
of his or her seat in a frantic frenzy when they discover "RE-INSERT
CARD" on the reader! It is so hilarious. Why? Because these fools are
such slaves to the thing that it's really the only reason they end up
playing. At the end of the day they can value the freebies anywhere
just enough so that they can claim yet another winning year of "AP
play"! But even more entertaining is when they're at the slot clubs
BEGGING to have X number of points installed. They are such foolish
creatures who have no shame.
> Second, the typical +EV games are not mathematically compatible
with short-term strategy, which by definition requires around 5% of
the plays to go against optimal play.
CON. The EV simply is. It is a MAXIMUM EV and can only be lowered
by modifications. Did I mention ... CON? I think we should rename
your special plays to the "special elixir" that will also cure the
common cold.
It's easy to see jealousy over something that's not fully understood.
Your EV may lower, but mine goes up....way up. You just haven't used
math properly in your frenzied search for how it works. Don't blame
me or call me names just because your abilities aren't where mine
are. Keep trying. someday the truth will set you free from the path
of blindness you're always on.
> > > False statement. Most of the people I train win where they
lost
> > after following long-term strategy.
> >
> > Lie. Give me the results for just a 100 people playing 100
sessions.
>
> These people write me all the time. I believe what they say
because
> they make perfect sense and I trust them. You believe your AP
friends
> win because you trust them--not because you know anything about
the
> truth of what they do. At that point common sense takes over, and
> that's why I win all of these debates.Why don't you add a data collection web page to your site where
others can input their results along with the games they play. You
could run a constantly updating section to show overall results.
I'm not the webmaster, but I'll ask. At first thought, it seems the
data would have to be sent to him and he would input it.
> I'm already one-up on you in just about evertyhing else. Why
start worrying now?
More monkey boy babbling. How's the web page coming?
Which page is that. I've already got the best most informative site
in gaming on the Net.
> > > > > and to get Mr. Chairman/Big Shot/Millionaire Club to do
> EXACTLY the same things.
> > >
> > > > I doubt it. However, Bob plays a slightly negative game (9-
5
> SDB)
> > > at Fiesta. His gain is through slot club benefits. In the
past
> his
> > > level of play improved his chances at drawings, etc. So, his
> profit
> > > didn't cost the casino a thing. It came out of the
promotions ...
> > > meaning other players' pockets.
> > >
> > > So you're saying he doesn't quite make his publicly-
> > > advertised/perceived positive percentage rate on that million
> buck-a-month deal, but because the casino has OTHER UNRELATED-TO-
Bob-
> > Dancer events/promos, they're covered. Incredible.
> >
> > Like I said below, I don't know. I'm just giving you possible
ways
> > that could be used to increase EV. There may be other factors
as
> > well. Each class he gives is an advertisement for his products.
He
> > may factor in additional sales as well. It's all part of having
> good business sense.
>
> You're unable to convince me that, with my facts that I know
about
> him along with abounding common sense, that I am not totally
correct.You haven't stated any facts. Only conjecture and outright lies.
I don't post personal facts about others. But you forgot to mention
or refute the sense of it all.
> >
> > > So is that how he wins
> > > the pile of cash from all those casinos every year without a
> blink!
> > > They just 'look the other way' when he comes in, figuring "oh
> well,
> > > why don't we let this famous guy win and we'll get it back
from
> the
> > > little guys"! Please.
> >
> > You're reading comprehension is a poor as ever. I said he was
> playing a NEGATIVE game and so the casino doesn't take much of a
hit.
>
> No, just a $180k hit--or is that some of those phantom bucks he
tries
> in vain to deposit the next day? After all, he's getting them not
> only from Stations--but every casino in town!You're numbers, not mine ... or his. The only way for you to
convince anyone that Bob is losing is to challenge him with a bet.
And you still wouldn't believe it even if that were to happen. You'd
marginalize it as an anamoly--just like to do my results. Read my
article this week on that.
> > > > > They don't give two shoots if the players and he (and of
> > > > > course the poor missus being dragged along) know how to
play,
> > > >
> > > > They care. They want them to know just enough to feel
> confident,
> > > but not enough to beat them. That is their business you know.
> > >
> > > I though you just said he beats them with those dumb club
> > benefits?? Or was it that sunny day.....
> >
> > No, I said he profits through the promotions. The casino
doesn't
> care if Bob or I win the promotion ... Up until the point that
people
> > start complaining and quit coming.
>
> but they DO care how much you guys actually paid for those items
won
> in the drawings.As a group. The casino looks at promotions for volume/profit. As
long as those numbers are good they don't care which individuals
profit most from the promotion.
Not true. They track promotion winners and have formulas that tell
them who does what and to what extent. Just as they do with exempting
100%+ games from many specials. I've seen all this at the Palms.
I've been talking to some LV people about
my
> > > having an off-casino seminar. The first thing to pop into
> > everyone's minds was not only how many players would flock to
it--
> but how many of those who criticize me would also be there to
learn.
> >
> > I already know. Zero.
>
> We'll see. I expect not because some people are forever envious
and
> want to argue. But we'll see.
There will usually be someone interested in the TRUTH.
> > > > > >I think the old expression
> > > > > > fits nicely here ... you can a horse to water but you
can't
> > > make him drink.
> > >
> > > > > I think I know what you said.
> > >
> > > > Good, then you understand that one or two lessons will not
make APers.
> > >
> > > It's not the lessons that these misleds are bolstered by.
It's the practicing at home that causes them their overall false
> confidence & trouble.
> >
> > Another assertion, still no evidence.
lose. It's a carbon copy of why I did.
>
> I suppose if I told you my own experience supported this, it too
> would be BS to you.Only a few will make the effort necessary to be successful over
time and the casinos tolerate them.
That makes little sense. Casinos do not tolerate card counters, etc.,
even with the tiny perceived advantage they supposedly have--but
they'll allow vp players to hurt them--even theoretically? That's
what's all over the map here.
> You seem to be arguing unprovable facts and have no tolerance for
> what other people say. A pessimist has never moved mountains.No, I'm challenging your unproven assertions.
Opinions/assertions form the groundwork of debate. I seem to trust
the spoken and written word of far more people than you do, and I
place a high emphasis on my own experiences and history. I support
what I say with ract thru some of my contacts, and you obviously know
I can't divluge or put in print anything about that end of my
investigations. At the end of the day it comes down to your theories
vs. what I've said and done plus a ton of common sense. To the
readers, i can tell you that most overwhelmingly side with common
sense.
I can't speak to generalizations. You have to go over each case.
That is exactly what Bob says he does. He analyzes every play. It is
also what I do, but it's easier for me playing at lower denoms
because I'm below the radar.
We've gone over this before--no one who always uses a slot club card
is 'below the radar'.
> > > > > Maybe that's why they don't do it anymore.
> > >
> > > Yeah, eliminate the class of nickel players, but allow him to
> make his automatic $180k. Makes sense.
> >
> > To my knowledge he's never said he makes $180K there.
>
> $1million X his mythical 1.5% that he claims in his writings
almost never to play below = $180k.
Is this the new math? In any event, I don't believe Bob could come
up
with 1.5% playing SDB at Fiesta, even at 5X points and with
promotions ... unless he can generate enough added sales of his
products.
I suspect he 'averages' all his plays around town and comes up with
something acceptable to his mind.
> It's the same old tune: Assert the
> unprovable, math-model it so it doesn't ever HAVE to be proven,
then
> slyly distribute the portrayal out there to as many suckers as
> possible. Over time, make believe it 'happens' and talk up the
money
> part when it's only phantom bucks that he really eluding to.I can only talk to my own winnings. No one but Bob knows what the
Fiesta play was worth to him. Why don't you ask him?
Because I won't get a straight answer and he doesn't like me. If you
asked him he'd give you a reputation-prolonging answer.
> You need to read my article on you again.....
Sorry, still haven't read it. Looks like I never will since you're
afraid to copy it here and have me tear it apart (that is, if it
exists at all).
Translation: You've not only read it....you've printed it out!
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@...> wrote:
From my many many members. I trust them when they tell me why the
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@...>
wrote:
>In fact, they are NOT allowed in some casinos (Bob Dancer at the
> MGM).Good thing I'm here to straighten this type of misconception out.
Bob
Dancer is not barred or banned anywhere and never has been. He has
been restricted on the slot card benefits somewhat in the past at
MGM
Grand and probably believes he still is now.
Same thing since they have no positive plays.
But if you read his book
you'd see he played a ton there, got a ton of free gifts, and also
got caught manipulating the comp system. He is a master at creating
perceptions in vulnerable/needy advantage players.
Yes, some of his methods were less than ethical by most standards,
however, to my knowledge he was not arrested or jailed.
>Also, they do not gamble with the their pen names. But I do
> agree they are recognizeable because they tend to play high
limits.
> However, if you read my latest post you will see that they often
>make their money through promotions which actually hurts other
>players more than it does the casinos.You mean like the Advantage Player who won the car at Terrible's
worth $21k and lost $28k piling up the drawing tickets? You mean
like
the famous guru who won the car at the Palms worth $24k but lost
$38k
piling up the drawing tickets?
More unverfied assertions. However, it is not unusual for an APer to
lose more money than a play is worth. On the other hand, it is not
unusual for an APer to break even or win money and then win the
promotion. Our $2000 promotion win last year occurred as we lost $174
gambling, accumulated $998 in CB/BB and additional comps that I
rarely add in. Make sure to add this one to your list.
Does anyone noticed that Rob always tells only the negative part of
the story. He conveniently omits the rest. That should tell you
something. IT'S A CON.
It's so easy making others who have an
inherent need to believe that advantage play works, to buy into
certain scenarios of prowess when nothing has to be proven. That's
why I do checks on claims, and why I'm more than happy to serve up
the truth whenever it's helpful to my readers.
Half-truths is what you excel in. It's what con men do well.
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@> wrote:
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@...>
wrote:
> > > > First, you need to know that I have brought up MY teaching
> > > > > class at that location--and unlike Bob Dancer does. I
offered
> > to
> > > do
> > > > it FOR FREE. The response? "We know who you are, and we
don't
> > want
> > > > > someone teaching our playing customers to 'hit & run'. We
> want
> > > them
> > > > to stay for hours playing what they like to play".
> > > >
> > > > > > > Not surprising for several reasons. First, you are a
> nobody
> > > > with a flawed system.
> > > >
> > > > > > Yoo-Hoo little dicky!! THEY didn't think so!!
> > > >
> > > > > Are you really this dense. Did you think their refusal
meant
> > they thought they would lose money if people used your system?
LMAO.
> > > >
> > > > Let me think this toughy over for about 2 hours.....OK.
Yup.
> And
> > > > that's why you're wearing the dunce cap and I'm not.
> > >
> > > LMAO. You really are that dense.
> >
> > And you are really wearing that dunce!
>
> No. I'm just getting a good laugh that you are so stupid you'd
> translate something this obvious into support for your system.
Just
> to help you out a little, those people passing you on the road,
while you're doddling in the left lane, with their middle finger
high
in the air, are not claiming you're strategy is #1.
All that confirms is that you enjoy wearing your dunce cap.
quod erat demonstrandum
> > > > It's casino-tested and profitably sound,
> > >
> > > Lie. Let me know when you have the results for 1000 people
who
> have
> > > 100 sessions or more in a real casino. PS. I already have
them
> > using my simulator. Not good.
> >
> > There's why you look like such a fool. You praise your
> > stupid "simulated results" and then ask for reality from people
who
> > play my strategy. Of course, you'd never think of providing 100
> > people here who can prove what they claim IF they claim to have
won
> > for 1000 casino visits. Nope.
>
> Translation: He's knows most of them would lose but admitting it
> would blow his con.It's simple theory vs. reality again, and you lose that one every
time.
Not according to my bank account. It appears the reality of AP does
work, while the CON of negative progressions is a disaster waiting to
happen.
>
> > And here's another flash for little
> > dicky: There'a THOUSANDS of people who play a variation of my
> > strategies. I don't know how most of them do nor do I care.
>
> Anybody surprised? If he cared, he wouldn't push a system that
will
> fail for most people.
Wrong again. Players are taught, they move on, and they usually
write
me later thanking me for helping them win for a change.
The few that win would do that, the majority that lose lick their
wounds.
> > > The money, which is why using math models is intelligent. You
> > > probably never use a map when travelling to strange locations.
> >
> > So you use a 'math model' when playing? HAHAHAHA! Next one.
>
> "math models" is a phrase for analyzing different techniques. My
> simulations of your strategy is basically a "math model". So,
like
it or not, your strategy is defineable by math models just like any
> other. And, to be complete, it produced worse results than any
> strategy based on positive plays."Defineable"? HAHA! You don't even know the full parameters and
made
up part of it.
I used your description.
That alone constitutes questionable geek-methodology.
Like I said, cutting corners to attain comfort-zone goals isn't
something taken lightly, and if you worked for me then you'd have
been fired years ago. And all you did was run a constant model
without the programmed hot/cold cycles that are inherent in real
machines.
Back to the illegal machine part of your con. This is called
scrambling. When faced with mathematical proof that his con fails he
must invent some other mechanism to throw back ... hence, hot/cold
cycles. quod erat demonstrandum
>
Yes, on paper and actually. Doesn't mean some people won't win,
> > just that many more will lose than using a mathematically sound
> > approach.
> >
> > Reality: I win on negative EV games ALL THE TIME.
>
> So do other idiots all over the country.Give me your facts and I'll give you mine: $683.7k over 258
sessions?
I'll take idiots like that every time!
I just talked with a couple that played almost every week for over a
year and were winning often enough. They had no idea how to play but
were very lucky. This past week they told me they were always losing
this winter and complained about the casino tightening the machines.
Need I say more.
Anyone can be lucky over the short term. Your system is extremely
high variance and success depends almost entirely on your luck at the
highest denoms. From my sim you will average only 60 hands/session at
the highest level. That is only 15K hands over 250 sessions. That is
why luck is still a big factor.
> > Here's a flash:
> > His million-a-month is why he was teaching, and he was
terminated
> > because they know that anybody foolish enough to pathologically
> > gamble that much would come in anyway--fired or not--because he
has no control over what he does.
>
> Lie. I often wonder who would believe someone who makes such
idiotic statements. By your statement you would think Bob should
lose
tens of thousands every month. There's no way he could cover this
by
selling stategy cards, etc. So how does he do it?
You're such a confused personality with far less understanding of
what goes on out there than you portray. He obviously makes lots of
money in his business,
Or not, you haven't provided any evidence. Personally, I doubt
strategy cards, lessons, etc. generate all that much income. Even his
books couldn't support losses like these.
and that's exactly what compulsive players use
to gamble with. He doesn't lose all the time of course, and if you
look at his W2G totals I'm sure it would floor you. But why do you
think he works--because he doesn't want to play video poker all the
time!?
Because he wants both. He'll never get rich playing VP. But, add in
all the extras ... It's the American way.
>
> > > > Here's where you exhibit a poor knowledge of what I teach.
I
> > don't ever tell anyone when or how often they should be
playing.
> > >
> > > Lie, you tell me I play too much all the time.
> >
> > Incorrect. I'm telling a certified addict how much they should
NOT be playing.
>
> Same thing. Which makes your previous statement a lie.Denial, which makes your previous denial look even more dumb.
Lie.
> > And by that you mean you and the others ARE NOT slaves to the
slot culbs?
>
> Absolutely. APers USE the slot clubs to their advantage. Didn't
you
> know this? Is this another reason you failed as an APer?
One of my favorite scenarios at casinos is watching the AP JUMP out
of his or her seat in a frantic frenzy when they discover "RE-
INSERT
CARD" on the reader!
You already said many times that you don't watch other gamblers. What
does that make this? Hint ... it starts with an L.
> > Second, the typical +EV games are not mathematically compatible
with short-term strategy, which by definition requires around 5% of
the plays to go against optimal play.
>
> CON. The EV simply is. It is a MAXIMUM EV and can only be lowered
by modifications. Did I mention ... CON? I think we should rename
your special plays to the "special elixir" that will also cure the
common cold.It's easy to see jealousy over something that's not fully
understood.
It's fully understood. They are part of your con.
Your EV may lower, but mine goes up....way up.
Sure it does. There's also the woman playing deuces wild that held a
lone ace and hit a RF. However, luck has a way of turning it's back
on you just as it did to that couple I described earlier.
You just haven't used
math properly in your frenzied search for how it works.
And, of course, you have. LMAO. Could the con be anymore obvious than
this? Simple math, I'm talking ASDM, is all one needs to determine
EV.
Don't blame
me or call me names just because your abilities aren't where mine
are. Keep trying. someday the truth will set you free from the path
of blindness you're always on.
quod erat demonstrandum
>
> > > > False statement. Most of the people I train win where they
lost
> > > after following long-term strategy.
> > >
> > > Lie. Give me the results for just a 100 people playing 100
> sessions.
> >
> > These people write me all the time. I believe what they say
because
> > they make perfect sense and I trust them. You believe your AP
> friends
> > win because you trust them--not because you know anything about
the
> > truth of what they do. At that point common sense takes over,
and
> > that's why I win all of these debates.
>
> Why don't you add a data collection web page to your site where
> others can input their results along with the games they play.
You
> could run a constantly updating section to show overall results.
I'm not the webmaster, but I'll ask. At first thought, it seems the
data would have to be sent to him and he would input it.
No, it can be programmed into the webpage. It can all be automated.
Maybe you should use some of your special "abilities".
> > > > > > and to get Mr. Chairman/Big Shot/Millionaire Club to do
> > EXACTLY the same things.
> > > >
> > > > > I doubt it. However, Bob plays a slightly negative game
(9-
5
> > SDB)
> > > > at Fiesta. His gain is through slot club benefits. In the
past
> > his
> > > > level of play improved his chances at drawings, etc. So,
his
> > profit
> > > > didn't cost the casino a thing. It came out of the
> promotions ...
> > > > meaning other players' pockets.
> > > >
> > > > So you're saying he doesn't quite make his publicly-
> > > > advertised/perceived positive percentage rate on that
million
> > buck-a-month deal, but because the casino has OTHER UNRELATED-
TO-
> Bob-
> > > Dancer events/promos, they're covered. Incredible.
> > >
> > > Like I said below, I don't know. I'm just giving you possible
> ways
> > > that could be used to increase EV. There may be other factors
as
> > > well. Each class he gives is an advertisement for his
products.
> He
> > > may factor in additional sales as well. It's all part of
having
> > good business sense.
> >
> > You're unable to convince me that, with my facts that I know
about
> > him along with abounding common sense, that I am not totally
> correct.
>
> You haven't stated any facts. Only conjecture and outright lies.I don't post personal facts about others. But you forgot to mention
or refute the sense of it all.
I guess we all must have been daydreaming when you posted
the "personal" claims about bob.
>
> > >
> > > > So is that how he wins
> > > > the pile of cash from all those casinos every year without
a
> > blink!
> > > > They just 'look the other way' when he comes in,
figuring "oh
> > well,
> > > > why don't we let this famous guy win and we'll get it back
from
> > the
> > > > little guys"! Please.
> > >
> > > You're reading comprehension is a poor as ever. I said he was
> > playing a NEGATIVE game and so the casino doesn't take much of
a
> hit.
> >
> > No, just a $180k hit--or is that some of those phantom bucks he
> tries
> > in vain to deposit the next day? After all, he's getting them
not
> > only from Stations--but every casino in town!
>
> You're numbers, not mine ... or his. The only way for you to
convince anyone that Bob is losing is to challenge him with a bet.And you still wouldn't believe it even if that were to happen.
Of course I would. But, I know you won't. You know as well as I do
that Bob most likely has won and you'd come out looking like a fool,
and a poorer fool at that.
You'd
marginalize it as an anamoly--just like to do my results. Read my
article this week on that.
Still don't read that trash.
> > > > > > They don't give two shoots if the players and he (and
of
> > > > > > course the poor missus being dragged along) know how to
> play,
> > > > >
> > > > > They care. They want them to know just enough to feel
> > confident,
> > > > but not enough to beat them. That is their business you
know.
> > > >
> > > > I though you just said he beats them with those dumb club
> > > benefits?? Or was it that sunny day.....
> > >
> > > No, I said he profits through the promotions. The casino
doesn't
> > care if Bob or I win the promotion ... Up until the point that
> people
> > > start complaining and quit coming.
> >
> > but they DO care how much you guys actually paid for those
items
> won
> > in the drawings.
>
> As a group. The casino looks at promotions for volume/profit. As
long as those numbers are good they don't care which individuals
profit most from the promotion.Not true. They track promotion winners and have formulas that tell
them who does what and to what extent.
I doubt it very much. There would have to be a reason to spend their
time this way. Like I said, if the volume/profit numbers look good
they won't waste their time.
Just as they do with exempting
100%+ games from many specials.
BEFORE THE FACT they will remove games that might impact the profit
numbers. Not only that they want the customers to play poorer payback
machines. Why is that? Because they know how the math works and
aren't perpetrating a con.
I've seen all this at the Palms.
And, they have little reason to look at individuals as they have
everything set up the way they want it.
>
I've been talking to some LV people about
> my
> > > > having an off-casino seminar. The first thing to pop into
> > > everyone's minds was not only how many players would flock to
it--
> > but how many of those who criticize me would also be there to
> learn.
> > >
> > > I already know. Zero.
> >
> > We'll see. I expect not because some people are forever envious
and
> > want to argue. But we'll see.
>
> There will usually be someone interested in the TRUTH.> > > > > > >I think the old expression
> > > > > > > fits nicely here ... you can a horse to water but you
> can't
> > > > make him drink.
> > > >
> > > > > > I think I know what you said.
> > > >
> > > > > Good, then you understand that one or two lessons will
not
> make APers.
> > > >
> > > > It's not the lessons that these misleds are bolstered by.
It's the practicing at home that causes them their overall false
> > confidence & trouble.
> > >
> > > Another assertion, still no evidence.From my many many members. I trust them when they tell me why the
lose. It's a carbon copy of why I did.
I won't disagree that many people won't make it as an APer. In fact,
that's what I've been saying relative to Dancers' classes. However,
that does not justify stating the they CAN win playing lower payback
machines with larger bankroll risks. That is a con.
> >
> > I suppose if I told you my own experience supported this, it
too
> > would be BS to you.
>
> Only a few will make the effort necessary to be successful over
time and the casinos tolerate them.That makes little sense. Casinos do not tolerate card counters,
At low denoms they do.
etc.,
even with the tiny perceived advantage they supposedly have--but
they'll allow vp players to hurt them--even theoretically? That's
what's all over the map here.
At low denoms they do. That is why you don't see any $ FPDW, etc.
They will tolerate a few small fry winners. At least they do now.
That could change in the future, and, if it does, it will be removing
more and more games where the player has the advantage. Once again,
the casinos know how the math works.
>
> > You seem to be arguing unprovable facts and have no tolerance
for
> > what other people say. A pessimist has never moved mountains.
>
> No, I'm challenging your unproven assertions.Opinions/assertions form the groundwork of debate.
When stated as opinions ... When stated as facts they are BS.
I seem to trust
the spoken and written word of far more people than you do, and I
place a high emphasis on my own experiences and history.
Big mistake.
I support
what I say with ract thru some of my contacts, and you obviously
know
I can't divluge or put in print anything about that end of my
investigations. At the end of the day it comes down to your
theories
Proven mathematical facts.
vs. what I've said and done plus a ton of common sense.
Not common sense. Common sense would always accept proven
mathematical facts.
To the
readers, i can tell you that most overwhelmingly side with common
sense.
I'm counting on that.
> I can't speak to generalizations. You have to go over each case.
That is exactly what Bob says he does. He analyzes every play. It
is
also what I do, but it's easier for me playing at lower denoms
because I'm below the radar.We've gone over this before--no one who always uses a slot club
card
is 'below the radar'.
Of course they are. Why would casinos pour over the play of a
thousands of players? They look only at the big winners. They
prioritize just like any other good business. Like I said before they
are willing to tolerate a few winners. It's also good advertising. By
the way, if you're doing so well why haven't you been banned?
> > > > > Maybe that's why they don't do it anymore.
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, eliminate the class of nickel players, but allow him
to
> > make his automatic $180k. Makes sense.
> > >
> > > To my knowledge he's never said he makes $180K there.
> >
> > $1million X his mythical 1.5% that he claims in his writings
almost never to play below = $180k.
>
> Is this the new math? In any event, I don't believe Bob could
come
up
> with 1.5% playing SDB at Fiesta, even at 5X points and with
> promotions ... unless he can generate enough added sales of his
> products.I suspect he 'averages' all his plays around town and comes up with
something acceptable to his mind.
A reasonable approach.
>
> > It's the same old tune: Assert the
> > unprovable, math-model it so it doesn't ever HAVE to be proven,
> then
> > slyly distribute the portrayal out there to as many suckers as
> > possible. Over time, make believe it 'happens' and talk up the
> money
> > part when it's only phantom bucks that he really eluding to.
>
> I can only talk to my own winnings. No one but Bob knows what the
> Fiesta play was worth to him. Why don't you ask him?Because I won't get a straight answer and he doesn't like me. If
you
asked him he'd give you a reputation-prolonging answer.
I don't think he likes me very much either.
>
> > You need to read my article on you again.....> Sorry, still haven't read it. Looks like I never will since
you're
> afraid to copy it here and have me tear it apart (that is, if it
> exists at all).Translation: You've not only read it....you've printed it out!
Lie.
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@>
wrote:
>
> >In fact, they are NOT allowed in some casinos (Bob Dancer at the
> > MGM).
>
> Good thing I'm here to straighten this type of misconception out.
Bob Dancer is not barred or banned anywhere and never has been. He
has been restricted on the slot card benefits somewhat in the past at
MGM Grand and probably believes he still is now.
Same thing since they have no positive plays.
And you of course left out the very pertinent fact that it was
because he abused his priviledges. If he didn't do that the
manufactured 'positive plays' remain.
> But if you read his book
> you'd see he played a ton there, got a ton of free gifts, and
also got caught manipulating the comp system. He is a master at
creating perceptions in vulnerable/needy advantage players.
Yes, some of his methods were less than ethical by most standards,
however, to my knowledge he was not arrested or jailed.
And I agree. He was and is an intelligent player who squeezes
everything he can out of his gambling--sometimes with reckless regard.
>
> >Also, they do not gamble with the their pen names. But I do
> > agree they are recognizeable because they tend to play high
limits.
> > However, if you read my latest post you will see that they
often
> >make their money through promotions which actually hurts other
> >players more than it does the casinos.
>
> You mean like the Advantage Player who won the car at Terrible's
> worth $21k and lost $28k piling up the drawing tickets? You mean
like the famous guru who won the car at the Palms worth $24k but
lost $38k piling up the drawing tickets?
More unverfied assertions.
What do you expect me to do--identify the source, the gamblers'
names, and what I was shown??
However, it is not unusual for an APer to
lose more money than a play is worth. On the other hand, it is not
unusual for an APer to break even or win money and then win the
promotion. Our $2000 promotion win last year occurred as we lost
$174 gambling, accumulated $998 in CB/BB and additional comps that I
rarely add in. Make sure to add this one to your list.
The 'more than break even' story is the exception not the rule, and
the losses are far greater overall for sucker AP's who get roped into
these things. If AP's really won more often than not, you'd see them
being barred and that does not happen regardless of the made up
stories a few people post on vpFREE.
Does anyone noticed that Rob always tells only the negative part of
the story. He conveniently omits the rest. That should tell you
something. IT'S A CON.
That's because there IS no positive side to addiction.
> It's so easy making others who have an
> inherent need to believe that advantage play works, to buy into
> certain scenarios of prowess when nothing has to be proven.
That's why I do checks on claims, and why I'm more than happy to
serve up the truth whenever it's helpful to my readers.
Half-truths is what you excel in. It's what con men do well.
What else could you possibly say being that you're one of the sheep?
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@...> wrote:
> --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@> wrote:
> It's simple theory vs. reality again, and you lose that one every
> time.Not according to my bank account. It appears the reality of AP does
work, while the CON of negative progressions is a disaster waiting
to happen.
I see now you believe I've won. Is that the left hand or the right
hand saying that?? You're such a clown!
> Wrong again. Players are taught, they move on, and they usually
write
> me later thanking me for helping them win for a change.The few that win would do that, the majority that lose lick their
wounds.
Support that assertion with facts! HAHAHA!!!
You're so funny so far here. i'm gonna cut you some slack because my
daughter's giving birth now so I have to run. It's nice to have a
life not controlled like little dicky's: live, sleep and eat video
poker.....and then dream about Singer when he's daydreaming. Oh when
will my domination of this bazooka ever end..........
--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@...> wrote: