vpFREE2 Forums

What's A Tip and What's A Bribe???

A while ago I wrote a post after reading about Jean Scott's
incredible dealt royal on a 100 play. Basically, the thread had to do
with how much players feel they should tip after hitting a jackpot.

More recently I posted about hosts that interrupted my play in high
limit. I referred to them as "pesky" and wondered how they knew who I
was.

That discussion branched off into how hosts should be treated so that
players receive the maximum possible. What could the "secret tips" be?

So, I'm wondering if it is a bribe, a tip, or some other type of
thank you when you give something to a host? Or does it matter?

Vegas is built around money. Those of us who fly in during the summer
would have absolutely no other reason to come there. Sure, there is
perhaps unrivaled entertainment and food. But it is always the lure
of a big win that brings us back.

Host know that. They are employed to maximize their "talent pool"
(meaning us) and in most cases are not close personal friends.

To that extent, the player/host relationship to me is more similar to
a business relationship than a friendship. And people handle their
business dealings in a variety of ways.

So, without making a judgment about what others do, I think everyone
needs to approach their host within their own "comfort zone" of what
they feel is appropriate. If I didn't slip any of my hosts a $100
bill it doesn't make me a fool because I may get less. And I'm not
sure it makes someone who does guilty of bribery.

Like I said, to each, his or her own.

npf152512 wrote:

So, I'm wondering if it is a bribe, a tip, or some other type of
thank you when you give something to a host? Or does it matter?

Key indicator of a bribe: If you later don't receive something from
the host to which you felt entitled and immediately find it unjust in
light of the prior "gift", the gift was intended as a bribe.

- H.

If it's legal currency, in this country that would be dollars, it's a
bribe, otherwise it's just a friendly gift. Congressmen do it all the
time. Dollars - bad, complementary corporate jet flights to Paris RFB
plus local pocket money - no problem, as they say, indeed, priceless.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

npf152512 wrote:
> So, I'm wondering if it is a bribe, a tip, or some other type of
> thank you when you give something to a host? Or does it matter?

Key indicator of a bribe: If you later don't receive something from
the host to which you felt entitled and immediately find it unjust in
light of the prior "gift", the gift was intended as a bribe.

- H.

Well, gee, if a "cash gratuity" induces the recipient to give the
guest something to which, according to the rules of the establishment,
he is not entitled to, I would say that constitutes a bribe.

If, on the other hand, the level and quality of service received would
have been the same regardless of the "cash gratuity", then that
constitutes a tip.

I personally have problems with inducing an employee to defraud his or
her employer, but I seem to be the only person on the planet who feels
any scruples in that regard.

tralfamidorgooglycrackers wrote:

I personally have problems with inducing an employee to defraud his or
her employer, but I seem to be the only person on the planet who feels
any scruples in that regard.

I seem to be that only person, too.

tralfamidorgooglycrackers wrote:

Well, gee, if a "cash gratuity" induces the recipient to give the
guest something to which, according to the rules of the
establishment, he is not entitled to, I would say that constitutes a
bribe.

I'll suggest that host tips are most often directed to the area of
"discretionary comps" -- those comps for which a host is empowered to
offer based upon the player's status, but isn't obligated to ... or
comps for which excess capacity means that some players, who otherwise
wouldn't qualify for them, will receive them. Examples of the former
include a limited number of available room upgrades, show tickets that
are to be distributed to eligible players, or a limited excess supply
of either which will be given to lower tier players.

I think it's human nature that any tip will be given with some
anticipation that it will engender greater regard when it comes to
such comps - even if that anticipation is rather minimal; it's
unlikely any tip represents a pure gratuity vs. a true bribe. It's
the degree of intent in one direction or the other that characterizes
a tip.

I personally have problems with inducing an employee to defraud his
or her employer, but I seem to be the only person on the planet who
feels any scruples in that regard.

This smacks of at at least a tad of self-righteousness, don't you think?

- Harry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:

Well, gee, if a "cash gratuity" induces the recipient to give the
guest something to which, according to the rules of the

establishment,

he is not entitled to, I would say that constitutes a bribe.

If, on the other hand, the level and quality of service received

would

have been the same regardless of the "cash gratuity", then that
constitutes a tip.

I personally have problems with inducing an employee to defraud his

or

her employer, but I seem to be the only person on the planet who

feels

any scruples in that regard.

In 1997 I tipped my casino host $70 a week. It actually started about
November of 1996. It was a handshake with the money in it. For the
money I received one weeks residence at the Riverside/Laughlin. I
lived there for 11 months. About a third of that time was spent in
the executive suites on the top floors of the south tower. The rooms
were cavernous with two balconies. Nicest view on the river. It was
sooooooo nice having a bathroom bigger than most hotel rooms. And
Mr. Laughlin had the only cable television on the river.

Tipping the hosts had become a racket at the Riverside. I wasn't
even close to being the only one in on this. As a matter of fact, it
was the other hustlers who clued me in. Bill Hartman, a legendary
hustler told me "Now you start out by giving them $10 a day, then you
whittle them down to about $5 a day. Just tell them you aren't doing
that good." I never tried to pull that trick. It was already cheap
enough for me. The ones who pulled that trick could get pushed out
for busy weekends, holidays, special events, etc. I never got pushed
out.

My host worked with only a handful of people. But there was one
host, an Englishman by the name of K****, who was working with
something like fifty people. But alot of his folks were not exactly
on the ball. Some didn't even have slot cards. They would jungle up
to like four to a room. That's only $2.50 a day each unless they
whittled him down. Hey, walk around the casino long enough to credit
hustle up a buck for a hot dog and you are living large in Laughlin,
Nevada. K**** could be seen every night playing the sucker
machines. So the money he was making never left the building.

At the bottom of the escalator to the Bingo Hall was an 18 machine
bank of linked Flush Attacks. This was my office. Unless I wanted
to take a break and go play the Flush Attacks in the no smoking
casino or the House A Rockin' in the North Tower.

That 18 machine bank was the home of the elite Flush Attackers of the
world. They were all boned up on strategy and were the fastest Flush
Attackers on the planet---if the light was on. If it wasn't they
were some of the slowest vp players on the planet.

You had to know how to get away with it. Just sitting there doing
nothing when the light was off was begging to get pitched off the
bank. And it happened to many. There was one security guard known
as "The Nazi" or "Little Hitler", whichever you prefer. When he was
in that section you had to avoid his shift. He knew all the tricks
players used. He eventually got transferred to no smoking but would
occasionally make a lap around the Flush Attacks just for general
principle. I caught him sniffing around me one day so I went to a 5
coin bet between lights, when the light would trigger I would go to a
one coin bet. He asked me what I was doing. "Ah, that flush attack
light is just there for suckers", I say. "No one can beat it." He
gave me a weird look but left me alone after that. There were
probably more people pitched out of the casino because of this bank
than any other situation that has ever existed in a casino.

One strategy was to play 5 coins real slow when the light was off,
then go to 5 coins fast when the light was on. Another strategy was
to play 1 coin when the light was off, then go to 5 coins when the
light was on.

Then there was the world famous "Dive Bomb" routine. Just hang back
behind some others machines with a bucket of quarters then run out
and play when the light came on. One hustler used to p*** us off by
dive bombing and betting one coin. He got his share of flushes. One
day he says to me "Don Laughlin told me I could play Flush Attack any
time I want to." I said "Yeah, that's because you make him $25 every
time you hit a flush, idiot."

I learned to stay off the bank when it was slow. If the balance was
something like 4 live ones and ten hustlers, you're gonna get a light
maybe every 20 minutes and with ten hustlers you're not gonna get in
many hands in the light. So you're sitting there looking like 86
material for too much time. I would walk up and down the bank sizing
everyone up. With about 10 live ones and a few hustlers you would
get lights every few minutes and could make your money in an hour or
so then clear the bank. When the upstairs Bingo session ended was
one of the best times.

Revvie was the resident credit hustler of the Riverside. He had been
there for 11 years. He was buddy buddy with Don. Don even took him
up in his helicopter. Revvie was a 60 year old pot-head with
streaming long grey hair and beard. Don gave him free gratis to roam
the Riverside hustling the credits. Of course, Revvie also picked up
any drawing tickets that were laying around too. Revvie single-
handedly caused the drawing rules to be changed to "one winner per
drawing." Whenever he had a good day credit hustling you could find
Revvie playing the sucker machines at the North Tower Bar, downing
shots and shouting "IT'S NOT RANDOM," as he played. The money never
left the building.

In October of 97 one very unlikeable hustler got into it with some
woman. Security went up to his room to question him. He was dyeing
his hair at the time and had spilled the dye into the carpet. They
86'd him. He went ballistic and called everyone he could about what
was going on. Gaming, the cops, the IRS, everybody.

The s*** hit the fan at the Riverside. Gaming came in and cracked
the whip on the tips/bribes to the hosts. There was something like a
hundred hustlers who hit the bricks on that day. I asked my host
what kind of trouble I was in and she said "you're not in any
trouble, you have a 700 point ($3500 in action) a day average. So I
escaped the massacre.

about November of 1996. It was a handshake with the money in it.
For the money I received one weeks residence at the Riverside/Laughlin.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

In 1997 I tipped my casino host $70 a week. It actually started

===================================================
Hi Mickey!

I just love reading your stories! Especially your hustler tales!

Please do consider putting your archived posts together in a book
format. I believe that lots of other gamblers besides me would
purchase a copy.

Perhaps you need to consult with a publishing house or a writer's
agent for a professional opinion.

In any event, you are one of only a handful of forum members, whose
every post is read by me with much pleasure!

Thanks for another great read! Good luck in all your endeavors!
~Babe~

> I personally have problems with inducing an employee to defraud

his

> or her employer, but I seem to be the only person on the planet

who

> feels any scruples in that regard.

This smacks of at at least a tad of self-righteousness, don't you

think?

- Harry

Only if you don't have access to a dictionary, or to a

functioning cerebrum.

"Righteousness" refers to having an opinion about the proper conduct
of OTHERS. Therefore, "self-righteousness", if it can even be
considered a word, would logically refer to having an opinion about
one's OWN proper conduct.

I shudder to think that you think that having such an opinion is
blameworthy, and hope I never meet you in a dark alley :slight_smile:

Self-righteous is a perfectly good word. This just in from Merriam-Webster:

convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions
and beliefs of others *:* narrow-mindedly moralistic

(Just in case anyone cares about these details)

···

On Jan 15, 2008 6:57 PM, tralfamidorgooglycrackers < tralfamidorgooglycrackers@yahoo.com> wrote:

  > > I personally have problems with inducing an employee to defraud
his
> > or her employer, but I seem to be the only person on the planet
who
> > feels any scruples in that regard.
>
> This smacks of at at least a tad of self-righteousness, don't you
think?
>
> - Harry
>
>>>Only if you don't have access to a dictionary, or to a
functioning cerebrum.

"Righteousness" refers to having an opinion about the proper conduct
of OTHERS. Therefore, "self-righteousness", if it can even be
considered a word, would logically refer to having an opinion about
one's OWN proper conduct.

I shudder to think that you think that having such an opinion is
blameworthy, and hope I never meet you in a dark alley :slight_smile:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for watching my back, glblnmm. I'd hope it had been evident
from past posts that I select my words with great deliberation and care.

Re tralfam**, should we meet in a dark alley (as you put forth), feel
free to ask for a light. I'm always anxious to help.

- H.

···

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Prior discussion:

tralfamidorgooglycrackers wrote:

> > > I personally have problems with inducing an employee to defraud
> > > his or her employer, but I seem to be the only person on the
> > > planet who feels any scruples in that regard.

Harry replied:

> > This smacks of at at least a tad of self-righteousness, don't you
> > think?

tralfam** responded:

> Only if you don't have access to a dictionary, or to a functioning
> cerebrum.
>
> "Righteousness" refers to having an opinion about the proper
> conduct of OTHERS. Therefore, "self-righteousness", if it can even
> be considered a word, would logically refer to having an opinion
> about one's OWN proper conduct.
>
> I shudder to think that you think that having such an opinion is
> blameworthy, and hope I never meet you in a dark alley :slight_smile:

glblnmm comeback:

Self-righteous is a perfectly good word. This just in from
Merriam-Webster: convinced of one's own righteousness especially in
contrast with the actions and beliefs of others *:* narrow-mindedly
moralistic

Thanks for watching my back, glblnmm. I'd hope it had been evident
from past posts that I select my words with great deliberation and

care.

Re tralfam**, should we meet in a dark alley (as you put forth), feel
free to ask for a light. I'm always anxious to help.

Well, I never criticzed anyone else's point of view in this matter,

nor did I use such insulting terms as "self-righteousness". Aside from
your snotty tone, you are still nonetheless misusing the term. I only
refer to my OWN standards. By your lights, EVERYONE is "self-
righteous" if they have a standard to which they adhere, and that
standard is different from yours.

You chose this particular word with neither "deliberation",

nor "care", nor the vaguest comprehension of its meaning. The only
care you took was to be snotty. I suppose I would now be entitled to
call YOU names because your moral stance differs from mine, But I
don't think I'll bother.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

tralfamidorgooglycrackers wrote:

>>>Well, I never criticzed anyone else's point of view in this matter,
nor did I use such insulting terms as "self-righteousness". Aside from
your snotty tone, you are still nonetheless misusing the term. I only
refer to my OWN standards. By your lights, EVERYONE is "self-
righteous" if they have a standard to which they adhere, and that
standard is different from yours.

I used the word in reaction to your statement, "I personally have
problems with inducing an employee to defraud his or
her employer, but I seem to be the only person on the planet who feels
any scruples in that regard."

This implicitly states that all others seem to lack "scruples in that
regard". You're within your right to disagree that
"self-righteousness" is applicable in interpreting that statement.

- Harry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:

I shudder to think that you think that having such an opinion is
blameworthy, and hope I never meet you in a dark alley :slight_smile:

What do you expect Harry to do... word you to death?

Chandler

tralfamidorgooglycrackers wrote:

> I shudder to think that you think that having such an opinion is
> blameworthy, and hope I never meet you in a dark alley :slight_smile:

cmayhem2001 wrote:

What do you expect Harry to do... word you to death?

Now that's something that easily might have fallen from Bev's lips ...

- H.

cmayhem2001 wrote:
> What do you expect Harry to do... word you to death?

Now that's something that easily might have fallen from Bev's

lips ...

- H.

And I hope you took it in a similar spirit. I have a healthy respect
for your understanding of the game, but more than once I have found
myself nodding off while in the middle of reading one of the mighty
tomes you have posted to the forum. My loss in many cases, I'm sure.

Chandler

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

Harry Porter wrote:

> cmayhem2001 wrote:
> "What do you expect Harry to do... word you to death?"
>
> Now that's something that easily might have fallen from Bev's
> lips ...

cmayhem2001 wrote:

And I hope you took it in a similar spirit. I have a healthy respect
for your understanding of the game, but more than once I have found
myself nodding off while in the middle of reading one of the mighty
tomes you have posted to the forum. My loss in many cases, I'm sure.

I wryly omitted the "smiley" (they get to be a little saccharine :wink:

I expect it's understood that my wordiness is in the interest of a
clear, comprehensive presentation, that anticipates any related
questions that might arise ... ideally not simply to "hear myself
talk" (but ego slips through at times ;).

I take some pains to structure my posts so that hopefully it's easy to
skim over anything not of particular interest -- and presume that this
is often done (sometimes to the extent of a 2 second glance and a
sighed "yeah ... yada, yada" ;).

- H. (is a little paralysis setting in ...)

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...>
wrote:

>>>>>In 1997 I tipped my casino host $70 a week. It actually

started

about November of 1996. It was a handshake with the money in it.
For the money I received one weeks residence at the

Riverside/Laughlin.

===================================================
Hi Mickey!

I just love reading your stories! Especially your hustler tales!

Please do consider putting your archived posts together in a book
format. I believe that lots of other gamblers besides me would
purchase a copy.

Perhaps you need to consult with a publishing house or a writer's
agent for a professional opinion.

In any event, you are one of only a handful of forum members, whose
every post is read by me with much pleasure!

Thanks for another great read! Good luck in all your endeavors!
~Babe~

Thanks, Babe, thanks, Karen, and thanks robar1521 for the
compliments. I have actually been contacted by a real writer. The
whole thing is pretty scary to me. Not the stories, but the
commitment. I suppose if I were to do it, I would let him handle
it.

But just as soon as I cut a deal with someone they are going to find
out just how notoriously irresponsible I am. The prime reason I love
the lifestyle of a gambler is every day is my own. I don't own an
alarm clock. I move my schedule around at will. I make on-the-spot
decisions to travel--all of a sudden, I'll just think "let's blow
this popsicle stand, I'm headed to that other play."

My cell phone is packed with the phone numbers of airlines, Amtrak,
bus lines, hotels, taxis, and the casinos involved. So I just whip
out the phone and make arrangements as I head back to my hotel room
to pack up my big rollaway and laptop and I'm gone. See you later,
alligator, after a while, crocadile. If I'm plotting on a new town,
I do my internet homework and feed my cell phone with all pertinenet
phone numbers.

For those who may wonder why I don't drive, it's pretty simple to
me. I made a commitment--the one commitment I have lived up to--to
myself twenty years ago and have never violated it. I got picked off
4 times driving away from bars at 2:00 AM. It made my life extremely
complicated, and the truth is I was getting sloppy. I certainly did
not want to ever be standing in court telling everyone what a "really
swell guy I am, and by the way, I'm sorry I ran over your kid." I
put an end to it. I have the bet covered 100% simply by refusing to
get a driver's license and a car. And my life is very
uncomplicated.

Getting to some plays poses logistical problems that I love to
solve. My hitchiking experience from my younger days has come in
handy. My first time to Ely, I took Greyhound to Wells then thumbed
south to Ely with $10,000 in my pocket. Sounds dangerous doesn't it?
Have you ever heard anybody say "Hey, let's go rob that hitchiker!?
No, you haven't because hitchikers are broke or else they wouldn't be
hitchiking, right? I've hitchiked in and out of Jackpot from Wells
and Twin Falls, Idaho simply because it was the only way I could get
in. I once chartered cabs all the way across Northern Nevada looking
for Draw Till U Win. I found it too.

I'm traveling heavier these days. Last year I found an oddball
payscale on a mostly individual progressive game that was on 5500
machines. There was lots of built up money in the meters. I didn't
have my laptop with me so I couldn't analyze it. It wasn't the type
of game you could punch into one of the programs and come up with the
actual payback. It had some very oddball bonus hands on it. But I
could piece it together using the programs and some math. So I wrote
all the information down and continued on my way thinking "I'll solve
this problem the next time I pull my laptop out of storage in Las
Vegas."

One thing lead to another. I got involved in other stuff and it was
almost a year before I got around to analyzing the game. When I did
I went "HOOLLLLLYYYYY COW!!! I'VE GOT TO GET TO THAT PLAY!!!!" When
I did the game had been replaced on about 80% of the machines-- and
the rest were in the process of being replaced. "Mickey, you are a
stone cold idiot," I kept telling myself.

I learned my lesson. Now the laptop comes with me.

Anyways, I have to go now. I'm gonna blow this popsicle stand.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:

I used the word in reaction to your statement, "I personally have
problems with inducing an employee to defraud his or
her employer, but I seem to be the only person on the planet who

feels

any scruples in that regard."

This implicitly states that all others seem to lack "scruples in that
regard". You're within your right to disagree that
"self-righteousness" is applicable in interpreting that statement.

- Harry

Once again we must refer to the dictionary: scruples="misgivings"

or "qualms". The term is morally neutral. I could have scruples about
eating grapefruit. So, to restate, since I have never heard from
anyone that they have "scruples" about bribing someone in this
context, I therefore conclude that I might very well be alone in
having such scruples. This observation does NOT cast any aspersions on
those who do not have such scruples. The word gets misused, in that it
is applied to a moralistic context. It's much like the term "attitude"
has grown to mean something negative, as in, "he has an attitude";
this usage is, of course, incorrect.

mickeycrimm wrote:

Thanks, Babe, thanks, Karen, and thanks robar1521 for the
compliments. I have actually been contacted by a real writer. The
whole thing is pretty scary to me. Not the stories, but the
commitment. I suppose if I were to do it, I would let him handle
it.

But just as soon as I cut a deal with someone they are going to find
out just how notoriously irresponsible I am.

Given the ease with which you spin a tale, in your shoes (assuming
you're inclined to write) I'd slip back with my laptop and a JD and
let my fingers run for a few hours. (Maybe exchange an email with a
friend or two to flush out some past stories for fodder.)

You should be able to drop a small packet of stories in the lap of
whoever that should be, for them to publish on their own desired
schedule. Tell 'em to send another bottle when they need more :wink:

- H.