vpFREE2 Forums

vp pro's view

#1

Quadzilla666 wrote ...

I have also noticed a level of contempt for pros (though not from
Tom) on this list. We are perceived as 'vultures' and somehow
scummy. So I guess if a play is killed and that hurts us, that
really doesn't matter. However, if viewed from our perspective, it
is very different. Suppose I came to your job and messed with your
ability to make a living just for shits and grins because it somehow
amuses me or I think that I am doing some people a favor?

Quadzilla, me posting a video poker play is way different that you coming to my office and messing with my job. First of all, your job overlaps with the hobby of millions of people and your 'office' is a pretty public place. I have yet to see a group of video poker pros hanging outside my building saying " I can't wait to get a shot some of those endless meetings and plant trips to Kansas."

In the Midwest, I have seen at least 4 pretty good plays killed by the same group of pros. This group had its base in the Western part of the US. There was also a group of locals who were very heavy players but not professionals. The local amateur players played these games for a good, long time. The pros killed these 4 plays in less than two weeks each. Some of the plays lasted less than a week once the pros hit town. Why are you against amateur players sharing information but not against professional players beating a play to death? The amateur players are the ones who give you the opportunity to make a living. Without them playing the same games, none of your plays last. Sounds like you should be thanking the people who share the info with other players. Otherwise, your play can't survive.

···

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#2

I think deep down, QuadZ and some others just want a few days/weeks
head start on the other Pro's. I think QuadZ is showing contempt for the
"LAZY" pro's or semi-pro's, who don't do their trench-work of going scouting.
Or the loners who don't have a network of friends to share scouting with.
They do their scouting by surfing vpfree. Not old-school shoe-leather and
back-room phone calls.

I agree whole-heartedly with John - these are public places, we are hobby-
ists. The last thing I wanna do is have somebody lay a guilt trip on me
because I shared info that hundreds of other people already know to a fairly
small group of friends on-line.

I believe there is only a minor overlap of our turf - and I think it's at the dollar
level. I really don't think us irregulars with our under-funded bankrolls
FLOCK to the $1 full-pay games. and I can't imagine Pro's wasting their time
on quarter machines.

And as far as casino execs: maybe one of the respected authors of VP can
write a semi-fictional account of a Day in the Life...

  ~Mark P.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "John.G.Zaroff" <John.G.Zaroff@d...>
wrote:

Quadzilla666 wrote ...

I have also noticed a level of contempt for pros (though not from
Tom) on this list. We are perceived as 'vultures' and somehow
scummy. So I guess if a play is killed and that hurts us, that
really doesn't matter. However, if viewed from our perspective, it
is very different. Suppose I came to your job and messed with your
ability to make a living just for shits and grins because it somehow
amuses me or I think that I am doing some people a favor?

Quadzilla, me posting a video poker play is way different that you coming to

my office and messing with my job. First of all, your job overlaps with the
hobby of millions of people and your 'office' is a pretty public place. I have yet
to see a group of video poker pros hanging outside my building saying " I
can't wait to get a shot some of those endless meetings and plant trips to
Kansas."

In the Midwest, I have seen at least 4 pretty good plays killed by the same

group of pros. This group had its base in the Western part of the US. There
was also a group of locals who were very heavy players but not professionals.
The local amateur players played these games for a good, long time. The
pros killed these 4 plays in less than two weeks each. Some of the plays
lasted less than a week once the pros hit town. Why are you against amateur
players sharing information but not against professional players beating a
play to death? The amateur players are the ones who give you the
opportunity to make a living. Without them playing the same games, none of
your plays last. Sounds like you should be thanking the people who share
the info with other players. Otherwise, your play can't survive.

···

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#3

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "John.G.Zaroff" <John.G.Zaroff@d...>
wrote:

Quadzilla666 wrote ...

I have also noticed a level of contempt for pros (though not from
Tom) on this list. We are perceived as 'vultures' and somehow
scummy. So I guess if a play is killed and that hurts us, that
really doesn't matter. However, if viewed from our perspective, it
is very different. Suppose I came to your job and messed with your
ability to make a living just for shits and grins because it

somehow

amuses me or I think that I am doing some people a favor?

Quadzilla, me posting a video poker play is way different that you

coming to my office and messing with my job. First of all, your job
overlaps with the hobby of millions of people and your 'office' is a
pretty public place. I have yet to see a group of video poker pros
hanging outside my building saying " I can't wait to get a shot some
of those endless meetings and plant trips to Kansas."

In the Midwest, I have seen at least 4 pretty good plays killed by

the same group of pros. This group had its base in the Western part
of the US. There was also a group of locals who were very heavy
players but not professionals. The local amateur players played
these games for a good, long time. The pros killed these 4 plays in
less than two weeks each. Some of the plays lasted less than a week
once the pros hit town. Why are you against amateur players sharing
information but not against professional players beating a play to
death? The amateur players are the ones who give you the
opportunity to make a living. Without them playing the same games,
none of your plays last. Sounds like you should be thanking the
people who share the info with other players. Otherwise, your play
can't survive.

Could you please post the 4 plays the pros killed. I always like to

see what I missed.

···

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#4

Tiger Woods' business is also a hobby to most. Hope you do not think
yelling "How's it going , Tiger" when he is putting is appropriate :wink:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "John.G.Zaroff" <John.G.Zaroff@d...>
wrote:

Quadzilla666 wrote ...

I have also noticed a level of contempt for pros (though not from
Tom) on this list. We are perceived as 'vultures' and somehow
scummy. So I guess if a play is killed and that hurts us, that
really doesn't matter. However, if viewed from our perspective, it
is very different. Suppose I came to your job and messed with your
ability to make a living just for shits and grins because it somehow
amuses me or I think that I am doing some people a favor?

Quadzilla, me posting a video poker play is way different that you

coming to my office and messing with my job. First of all, your job
overlaps with the hobby of millions of people and your 'office' is a
pretty public place. I have yet to see a group of video poker pros
hanging outside my building saying " I can't wait to get a shot some
of those endless meetings and plant trips to Kansas."

In the Midwest, I have seen at least 4 pretty good plays killed by

the same group of pros. This group had its base in the Western part
of the US. There was also a group of locals who were very heavy
players but not professionals. The local amateur players played
these games for a good, long time. The pros killed these 4 plays in
less than two weeks each. Some of the plays lasted less than a week
once the pros hit town. Why are you against amateur players sharing
information but not against professional players beating a play to
death? The amateur players are the ones who give you the opportunity
to make a living. Without them playing the same games, none of your
plays last. Sounds like you should be thanking the people who share
the info with other players. Otherwise, your play can't survive.

···

**********************************************************************
******************

Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged

and confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of
this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent
responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by
replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank
you.

**********************************************************************
******************

#5

That isn't the least bit comparable to VP, since golf hobbyists are not
in competition for the same "jackpots" that Tiger is playing for.

The VP pro's need to understand that nobody owes them anything.
There is no inherent "right" to have good plays protected for their
own special benefit. If sharing of information on this forum or any
other "hurts" the pro's to the point where VP doesn't provide a
viable income, then perhaps they will have to resort to a real job.

Boo hoo :wink:

···

On Wednesday 31 December 2003 05:52 am, Michael Boutot wrote:

Tiger Woods' business is also a hobby to most. Hope you do not think
yelling "How's it going , Tiger" when he is putting is appropriate :wink:

#6

Again the hostility against people who define thier own goals & life.
A very sad commentary on those posting/feeling this kind of
jealousy/dislike. Nobody owes you anything (like an apology for
working to win at your "hobby") either. In table Poker there are
plenty of pros & hobbyists going for the same prizes in tournies.
Tough luck wished on them as well?

> Tiger Woods' business is also a hobby to most. Hope you do not

think

> yelling "How's it going , Tiger" when he is putting is

appropriate :wink:

That isn't the least bit comparable to VP, since golf hobbyists are

not

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Steve Jacobs <jacobs@x> wrote:

On Wednesday 31 December 2003 05:52 am, Michael Boutot wrote:
in competition for the same "jackpots" that Tiger is playing for.

The VP pro's need to understand that nobody owes them anything.
There is no inherent "right" to have good plays protected for their
own special benefit. If sharing of information on this forum or any
other "hurts" the pro's to the point where VP doesn't provide a
viable income, then perhaps they will have to resort to a real job.

Boo hoo :wink:

#7

Again the hostility against people who define thier own goals & life.

What hostility? I don't claim there is anything wrong with playing
VP for a living. But if you choose to do so, it isn't reasonable to
expect the rest of the world to go out of their way to facilitate your
success. VP pro's who get pissed at non-pro's sharing information
are absurd in the extreme.

A very sad commentary on those posting/feeling this kind of
jealousy/dislike.

ROTFLMAO. My comments have nothing to do with jealousy,
but if you want to try to spin them that way then knock yourself
out.

Nobody owes you anything (like an apology for
working to win at your "hobby") either.

I absolutely agree. Nobody owes hobby players this information,
but if some find it and want to share it then that is their business.
The pro's don't have to like it, and they can whine and complain
all they want, but nobody should feel compelled to avoid sharing
information as a result of that whining.

I support free choice. If people have information they want to
share, for whatever reason, then that is _their_ choice. If people
have information they DON'T want to share, that too is _their_
choice, but don't try to tell me I can't/shouldn't do whatever I
want with information that is mine to share (or not) according
to my own whims.

In table Poker there are
plenty of pros & hobbyists going for the same prizes in tournies.

Much better than the golf example.

Tough luck wished on them as well?

I never said "tough luck" or anything like that. More like "take
responsibility for YOURSELF and your own CHOICES". Do you
think the pro players in a live poker tournament should have the
right to tell the non-pros "don't play" or to tell them _how_ they
should play?

···

On Wednesday 31 December 2003 10:34 am, Michael Boutot wrote:

#8

Steve Jacobs wrote:

snip

... Do you
think the pro players in a live poker tournament should have the
right to tell the non-pros "don't play" or to tell them _how_ they
should play?

snip

I can recall several threads in the past in other groups pertaining to blackjack where some players have apparently openly complained about other players taking cards that the complainers could use, when all that the other players were doing is just playing their hands the way they should be played; now, those few posts/threads were NOT along the lines of "Oh, hell, I'll need that ten myself; I wish you hadn't drawn that", but rather they were described as being extremely bitchey and unpleasant. A couple of the stories were nothing short of remarkable. There have been a few bitch sessions here, too.

Unfortunately, there will always be some impolite, ill-mannered, arrogant, and presumptuous little people who will openly whine or attack others over all sorts of things, including how others choose to spend their own money and play the games they like, the way they like. While I suppose they do have the right to voice their opinion 'peacefully' as part of their freedom of speech, we, on the other hand, have the same right to bluntly tell them to mind their own damned business.

Anyway, after seeing how a few folks are on some of these boards, it's a wonder there aren't fist fights breaking out in the casinos all the time.

Bill Velek

#9

Ok, to digress for a minute. How many people are out there whose
sole income is playing video poker. I'm not talking about retired
people who play video poker for some extra money but people who grind
out a living on video poker and do nothing else.

How many? 40? 50? Just curious

Steve Jacobs wrote:

snip

> ... Do you
> think the pro players in a live poker tournament should have the
> right to tell the non-pros "don't play" or to tell them _how_ they
> should play?

snip

I can recall several threads in the past in other groups pertaining

to

blackjack where some players have apparently openly complained

about

other players taking cards that the complainers could use, when all

that

the other players were doing is just playing their hands the way

they

should be played; now, those few posts/threads were NOT along the

lines

of "Oh, hell, I'll need that ten myself; I wish you hadn't drawn

that",

but rather they were described as being extremely bitchey and
unpleasant. A couple of the stories were nothing short of

remarkable.

There have been a few bitch sessions here, too.

Unfortunately, there will always be some impolite, ill-mannered,
arrogant, and presumptuous little people who will openly whine or

attack

others over all sorts of things, including how others choose to

spend

their own money and play the games they like, the way they like.

While

I suppose they do have the right to voice their

opinion 'peacefully' as

part of their freedom of speech, we, on the other hand, have the

same

right to bluntly tell them to mind their own damned business.

Anyway, after seeing how a few folks are on some of these boards,

it's a

wonder there aren't fist fights breaking out in the casinos all the

time.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

Bill Velek

#10

IMHO, the year 2004 would be a good time for video poker "professionals" to
start looking for a new line of work. The writing has been on the wall for a
quite a while now. With all the tourists watching the World Poker Tour,
Celebrity Poker and the World Series of Poker (over and over and over again)
and coming to Las Vegas to try their hand at the game....perhaps?

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Jacobs" <jacobs@xmission.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: vp pro's view

On Wednesday 31 December 2003 05:52 am, Michael Boutot wrote:
> Tiger Woods' business is also a hobby to most. Hope you do not think
> yelling "How's it going , Tiger" when he is putting is appropriate :wink:

That isn't the least bit comparable to VP, since golf hobbyists are not
in competition for the same "jackpots" that Tiger is playing for.

The VP pro's need to understand that nobody owes them anything.

#11

I'd set the over and under at 25. Then I'd put a Benjamin on the UNDER.
ra$ti$

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "hansjurgent" <hansjurgent16@hotmail.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 2:10 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: vp pro's view

Ok, to digress for a minute. How many people are out there whose
sole income is playing video poker. I'm not talking about retired
people who play video poker for some extra money but people who grind
out a living on video poker and do nothing else.

How many? 40? 50? Just curious

#12

Could we have a survey to determine, anonymously, the full time,for a living, vp players?

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Video Poker Vegas
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 8:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: vp pro's view

  I'd set the over and under at 25. Then I'd put a Benjamin on the UNDER.
  ra$ti$

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "hansjurgent" <hansjurgent16@hotmail.com>
  To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 2:10 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: vp pro's view

  > Ok, to digress for a minute. How many people are out there whose
  > sole income is playing video poker. I'm not talking about retired
  > people who play video poker for some extra money but people who grind
  > out a living on video poker and do nothing else.
  >
  > How many? 40? 50? Just curious

  vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

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#13

Could we have a survey to determine, anonymously, the full time,for a
living, vp players?

"hansjurgent" wrote:

Ok, to digress for a minute. How many people are out there whose
sole income is playing video poker. I'm not talking about retired
people who play video poker for some extra money but people who grind
out a living on video poker and do nothing else.

On 1 JAN vp_FREE replied:

I'm going to redo the polls soon, and probably will have one

that will answer this question.

In the meantime, everyone should make sure they've voted
in all of the open polls before I close some of them. <<<

···

On 4 Jan 2004 at 21:27, seussman wrote:

#14

time,for a living, vp players?>>

In Bob Dancers $1,000,000 VP book (page 5) he says: "There are
probably 50 other pros that play every bit as well as I do. Maybe
more."

It ambiguous ... does he mean more than 50 pros, or some of the 50
play with more skill than he does?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "seussman" <dlvseuss@c...> wrote:

Could we have a survey to determine, anonymously, the full

#15

I certainly would not consider Dancer a professional video poker player at
this stage of his life. He killed the goose that laid those golden eggs a
long time ago. Dancer is now a professional "consultant", author, lecturer
and professional marketer of his name and image. Of course that description
would apply to more than one member of this group.

Ra$ti$

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 12:34 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: vp pro's view

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "seussman" <dlvseuss@c...> wrote:
>> Could we have a survey to determine, anonymously, the full
time,for a living, vp players?>>

In Bob Dancers $1,000,000 VP book (page 5) he says: "There are
probably 50 other pros that play every bit as well as I do. Maybe
more."

It ambiguous ... does he mean more than 50 pros, or some of the 50
play with more skill than he does?

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

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#16

The problem here (and repeated constantly elsewhere) is that Dancer
doesn't exclusively play vp for a living. In fact, my guess is that
nobody does. The question posed asks about numbers of people who
are "the full time, for a living, vp players." Of course, there may
be some (I'll bet they have real quality lives!), but I strongly
doubt it. I've met over the years quite a few folks who hustle for
their living (that is, they don't have jobs paying them a
salary/wage), and many of them center their hustle around lots of vp
play, but I've never known one to earn a living exclusively from vp
play. Instead, they play various games, live poker, do some sports
betting, make regular use of coupons, game as many drawings as
possible, wong the slots, make some book, and so on.

To return to Dancer as an example, he readily admits his rather
remarkable good fortune in the vp streak that established him as a
vp guru. I suspect that if were to continue to regularly play at a
level beyond his bankroll, he would eventually go bust. But what he
primarily makes his regular living at is being a writer and a casino
shill.

Pete

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "seussman" <dlvseuss@c...> wrote:
>> Could we have a survey to determine, anonymously, the full
time,for a living, vp players?>>

In Bob Dancers $1,000,000 VP book (page 5) he says: "There are
probably 50 other pros that play every bit as well as I do. Maybe
more."

It ambiguous ... does he mean more than 50 pros, or some of the 50
play with more skill than he does?

#17

Are Brad and I pros? I don't know. We only average putting in about 20
hours a week together. We have pensions and savings we could live on if
we never played VP again. Yes, I make money from my writing and
speaking - but not enough to keep me doing it unless I really liked to
do it anyway. (And every other day I threaten to quit doing it!!)

Actually we find we make more money playing VP when we play fewer hours.
Because I am busy with speaking engagements and writing projects, we
don't have time to play as much as we used to. Therefore, we mostly
only choose the very best playing opportunities and drop off those with
too thin of an edge.

Despite the decrease in good VP plays, a preliminary look at our 2003
figures seems to put last year as #2 in profit during our last 6 years
playing mostly above quarter VP - from $1 single line up to $1 Ten Play.
We average in the mid-range of 5 figures for the last 6 years. Our
worse year was basically a break-even year - our best year was a profit
of about $80,000 because of an amazing streak of royals. All these
figures do not count in the value of comps - which probably average
perhaps $20,000 a year - more if you count all the ones we don't have
the time or energy to take advantage of. At the end of every month I
clean out my casino files and throw away hundreds of dollars worth of
comps we didn't get around to using - food, shows, rooms - and
(horrors!) even some Free Play and cash coupons!!

I know only a couple of people who I am sure have no other income except
VP - I'm sure there are others - I don't ask people to explain their
financial situation to me - and you shouldn't either - it is not good
manners.

The decrease in good VP plays is hardest for those with smaller
bankrolls. If you have a VERY large financial bankroll - AND the
ability to suffer a lot of pain - there are still plenty of 100%+
plays - but many of them have a razor-thin edge. Getting to the "long
term" takes a lot longer for these plays!!!

You definitely have to scramble more to make a go at advantage gambling
these days. But it is still possible - I know LOTS of people who are
doing it!!!!!

···

____________________
Jean $�ott - The Frugal Gambler
Pre-pub sale on for January release of
"Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler"
at http://www.FrugalGambler.biz

#18

If you are saying that you (and hubby) average $50,000 a year income (last
six years) from playing $1+ video poker games for twenty hours a week and
not had a single losing year, WOW! I would not only say you are a
professional VP player, I would say you are at the top of the game! If you
could figure out a way to "market" the how and where of these amazing
opportunities, IMHO, you could make hundreds of thousands of dollars from
this venture. Rastis has a friend who makes over a $100,000 a year working a
"real job". His friend can retire in six months with a pension of about
$63,000 a year (with annual cost of living increases). "Friend" told me that
he would pay hundreds of dollars to find out how he could live in Las Vegas
and consistently make $50,000 a year, playing VP twenty hours a week.
"Friend" has access to a $100,000 bankroll and his wife works as an
attorney, so I think he could afford to get into the game. "Friend" will be
50 years old when he is eligible to retire (July 2004). His mind is sharp,
reflexes good and he has more energy than most 25 year olds! He can play
.25 FPDW at the rate of 900/1000 hands per hour but never dreamed there were
consistent video poker opportunities like this available in Las Vegas.
"Friend" would retire in a second and move to beautiful Las Vegas if you
could share your secret to this fantastic success with him. Rastis has
always told his friends that the only consistent, profitable VP
opportunities left in Las Vegas were on .25 machines like FPDW. Rastis had
no idea there were $1+ positive EV games available on a regular (20 hours a
week) basis, that could generate this kind of income. Rastis' friend had
planned on working until he was 55 but with opportunities like this
available to average $50,000 a year, working 20 hours a week, playing
VP....WOW! I've never seen him so ecstatic! Real jobs are such hard work.
On his trips to LV now, he averages 12 hours a day (quarter FPDW) and makes
only a few bucks (and lots of comps). "Friend" says there is nothing more
he would like to do, than move to Las Vegas, play less, and make more!

PS. Rastis will be in Las Vegas Jan 15-24 and would be available to meet
with as many of the "LOTS of people" that are making this kind of money from
VP as possible. Rastis will share this info with his "friend" when he
returns to Texas.
Thank you in advance & have a great and profitable day!
Ra$ti$

- Original Message -----

···

From: "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz>
To: "AA VP List" <vp-mail@yahoogroups.com>; <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 8:43 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Discussion about Pros

Are Brad and I pros? I don't know. We only average putting in about 20
hours a week together. We have pensions and savings we could live on if
we never played VP again. Yes, I make money from my writing and
speaking - but not enough to keep me doing it unless I really liked to
do it anyway. (And every other day I threaten to quit doing it!!)

Actually we find we make more money playing VP when we play fewer hours.
Because I am busy with speaking engagements and writing projects, we
don't have time to play as much as we used to. Therefore, we mostly
only choose the very best playing opportunities and drop off those with
too thin of an edge.

Despite the decrease in good VP plays, a preliminary look at our 2003
figures seems to put last year as #2 in profit during our last 6 years
playing mostly above quarter VP - from $1 single line up to $1 Ten Play.
We average in the mid-range of 5 figures for the last 6 years. Our
worse year was basically a break-even year - our best year was a profit
of about $80,000 because of an amazing streak of royals. All these
figures do not count in the value of comps - which probably average
perhaps $20,000 a year - more if you count all the ones we don't have
the time or energy to take advantage of. At the end of every month I
clean out my casino files and throw away hundreds of dollars worth of
comps we didn't get around to using - food, shows, rooms - and
(horrors!) even some Free Play and cash coupons!!

I know only a couple of people who I am sure have no other income except
VP - I'm sure there are others - I don't ask people to explain their
financial situation to me - and you shouldn't either - it is not good
manners.

The decrease in good VP plays is hardest for those with smaller
bankrolls. If you have a VERY large financial bankroll - AND the
ability to suffer a lot of pain - there are still plenty of 100%+
plays - but many of them have a razor-thin edge. Getting to the "long
term" takes a lot longer for these plays!!!

You definitely have to scramble more to make a go at advantage gambling
these days. But it is still possible - I know LOTS of people who are
doing it!!!!!

#19

Video Poker Vegas wrote:

  "Friend" would retire in a second and move to beautiful Las Vegas if you

could share your secret to this fantastic success with him.

We've been down this path before, but one more time:
the "secret" is Las Vegas LOCAL'S MAILINGS.
My wife and I average about $1500/month in freeplay/bounceback mailings, and we don't play nearly as much as Brad and Jean, nor do we play at such high denominations. I don't doubt that a full-time pro, who includes Laughlin in his circuit, could triple that (or more). Add in cashback, promos, drawings, free tournaments, free gas, free groceries, free clothing, free food, free entertainment, and there you are. See Jean's excellent "Frugal II" for details [note to Jean: VPV isn't going to be an easy sale, but I gave it a shot :^)].

PS. Rastis will be in Las Vegas Jan 15-24 and would be available to meet
with as many of the "LOTS of people" that are making this kind of money from
VP as possible. Rastis will share this info with his "friend" when he
returns to Texas.

Over the years, many have expressed doubts that VP pros exist. None of the doubters live in Las Vegas.

John

#20

Wonder if this has anything to do with 'killing' good plays?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Kelly <jwkelly@f...> wrote:

the "secret" is Las Vegas LOCAL'S MAILINGS.