vpFREE2 Forums

Venetian No-Play Days?

#1

show this to the gaming columnist john robinson....he says everything is completely random in casino machines...this proves that the venetian fucks with the paytables intentionally during a sweepstakes promotion week......if that's not tightening what a video poker machine(s) pay then he needs to see a psychiatrist..!!!!

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--- On Sat, 4/4/09, Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net> wrote:

From: Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net>
Subject: [vpFREE] Venetian No-Play Days?
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 11:10 PM

If things are like they usually are (and you can't always depend on this),
there will be no 9/6 JoB to play at the Venetian/Palazzo during the upcoming
Sweepstakes April 9-12. They may change the paytables the evening of the
8th or earlier in the day.

Just a warning, but I can't be sure of this information.
____________ ____
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps .com/
You can read my blog at
http://lasvegasadvi sor.com/blogs/ jscott/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Very well put, coldpot.

According to many previous posts here on vpFREE, Venetian has been doing
this for awhile now. And, people are naive if they think this kind of
thing doesn't happen with slot machines (not just video poker) in casinos
all over Nevada.

There's nothing we can do about it. So, we might as well just get used to
it. And, give our play to casinos that do not participate in this practice.

Curtis

···

On 4/5/09, coldpot <coldpotsports@yahoo.com> wrote:

show this to the gaming columnist john robinson....he says everything is
completely random in casino machines...this proves that the venetian fucks
with the paytables intentionally during a sweepstakes promotion week......if
that's not tightening what a video poker machine(s) pay then he needs to see
a psychiatrist..!!!!

--- On Sat, 4/4/09, Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net> wrote:
If things are like they usually are (and you can't always depend on this),
there will be no 9/6 JoB to play at the Venetian/Palazzo during the
upcoming
Sweepstakes April 9-12. They may change the paytables the evening of the
8th or earlier in the day.

Just a warning, but I can't be sure of this information.
____________ ____
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps .com/
You can read my blog at
http://lasvegasadvi sor.com/blogs/ jscott/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

What am I missing? How does changing paytables have anything to do with random?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, coldpot <coldpotsports@...> wrote:

show this to the gaming columnist john robinson....he says everything is completely random in casino machines...this proves that the venetian fucks with the paytables intentionally during a sweepstakes promotion week......if that's not tightening what a video poker machine(s) pay then he needs to see a psychiatrist..!!!!

#4

I think some of you don't understand the difference between VP and slot machines and how the word "tighten" is used for each. Yes, the Venetian IS "tightening" their JoB machines during sweepstakes, but WE KNOW THAT because they change the paytables and we can see that. They are still random, but their EV is dropped because of the different paytable. So we can choose not to play those "tighter" games that have been changed to a lower EV paytable.

That's different than when a casino changes a chip in a SLOT MACHINE (as opposed to a VP machine) for a lower payout. We can not tell they have done that by looking at the machine. We never know slot machine payouts.

···

________________
Jean $�ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://lasvegasadvisor.com/blogs/jscott/

#5

Re: "We never know slot machine payouts."

Yes, Jean. But, it has been said many times over that you CAN
judge casinos' slot machines' "tightness" or "looseness" by their
video poker machines' pay schedules.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but general consensus has been:
if a casino offers loose video poker (good pay schedules), then their
slot machines are also relatively loose. So, it must also follow suit
that: if a casino regularly makes changes to its video poker pay
schedules, it does the same thing to their slot machines.

Curtis

···

On 4/5/09, Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net> wrote:

I think some of you don't understand the difference between VP and slot
machines and how the word "tighten" is used for each. Yes, the Venetian
IS
"tightening" their JoB machines during sweepstakes, but WE KNOW THAT
because
they change the paytables and we can see that. They are still random, but
their EV is dropped because of the different paytable. So we can choose
not to play those "tighter" games that have been changed to a lower EV
paytable.

That's different than when a casino changes a chip in a SLOT MACHINE (as
opposed to a VP machine) for a lower payout. We can not tell they have
done
that by looking at the machine. We never know slot machine payouts.
________________
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://lasvegasadvisor.com/blogs/jscott/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

<<Please correct me if I am wrong, but general consensus has been:
if a casino offers loose video poker (good pay schedules), then their
slot machines are also relatively loose. >>

Often this is true - but not always, of course.

<< So, it must also follow suit
that: if a casino regularly makes changes to its video poker pay
schedules, it does the same thing to their slot machines.>>

It might - in the Venetian's case they seem desperate so they might. But since I don't play slots I don't worry about this. But if they change VP paytables, at least I can tell and make a knowledgeable decision.

···

________________
Jean $�ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://lasvegasadvisor.com/blogs/jscott/

#7

Curtis Rich wrote:

Re: "We never know slot machine payouts."

Yes, Jean. But, it has been said many times over that you CAN
judge casinos' slot machines' "tightness" or "looseness" by their
video poker machines' pay schedules.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but general consensus has been:
if a casino offers loose video poker (good pay schedules), then
their slot machines are also relatively loose. So, it must also
follow suit that: if a casino regularly makes changes to its video
poker pay schedules, it does the same thing to their slot machines.

Generally speaking, there's no slot equivalent to a high ER vp paytable such as 9/6 Jacks.

The Venetian's actions are targeted, and not generic to the vp inventory as a whole. Were I inclined to make general slot payback inferences, I'd base it on what I see happening to the vp inventory as a whole (and not a small subset of the vp inventory).

In any case, my guess is that the Venetian slot clientele may have a passing interest in what they're true ER is, but not one that actually drives their actions.

- H.

#8

Good explanation Jean. Now this... if the RNG in a slot machine can be tightened or loosened by changing chips per your explanation, then why can't the casino also tighten or loosen the RNG in the VP machine while leaving the paytable completely alone? So, a VP machine with 100%+ paytable could have a chip with a loose hit rate or a tight hit rate. If you say it can be done to a slot machine....why not also a VP machine? How is the RNG in VP different than a Slot?

I assume a casino's total payout percentage is only reported from all machines including VP....too bad we could not see total payout percentage on just VP from a given casino over time....that would tell us the story on tight or loose changes if they exist.

Chuck and Kathy

···

--- On Mon, 4/6/09, Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net> wrote:

From: Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Venetian No-Play Days?
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 12:39 AM

I think some of you don't understand the difference between VP and slot
machines and how the word "tighten" is used for each. Yes, the
Venetian IS
"tightening" their JoB machines during sweepstakes, but WE KNOW THAT
because
they change the paytables and we can see that. They are still random, but
their EV is dropped because of the different paytable. So we can choose
not to play those "tighter" games that have been changed to a lower
EV
paytable.

That's different than when a casino changes a chip in a SLOT MACHINE (as
opposed to a VP machine) for a lower payout. We can not tell they have done
that by looking at the machine. We never know slot machine payouts.
________________

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

I don't think it works that way. A RNG is still a RNG. What's different is the amount of choices the RNG can choose from. In VP, it can choose from 52 "cards".

-Bob Bartop

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Chuck & Kathy <kc42223@...> wrote:

Good explanation Jean. Now this... if the RNG in a slot machine can be tightened or loosened by changing chips per your explanation, then why can't the casino also tighten or loosen the RNG in the VP machine while leaving the paytable completely alone? So, a VP machine with 100%+ paytable could have a chip with a loose hit rate or a tight hit rate. If you say it can be done to a slot machine....why not also a VP machine? How is the RNG in VP different than a Slot?

#10

Class III video poker must be dealt using the same randomness as if it were
a live deck of cards being dealt. If they did not have this requirement,
then, yes, the Vegas casinos could have machines with RNG chips with a tight
(or loose) 'hit rate.'

When a hand is dealt on a class III video poker machine, it is dealt with
the exact same randomness as if it were cards dealt from a live hand. The
RNG chooses a random hand from a finite number of possible hands and the
frequency of the winning hands cannot be changed.

Curtis

···

On 4/6/09, Chuck & Kathy <kc42223@yahoo.com> wrote:

Good explanation Jean. Now this... if the RNG in a slot machine can be
tightened or loosened by changing chips per your explanation, then why can't
the casino also tighten or loosen the RNG in the VP machine while leaving
the paytable completely alone? So, a VP machine with 100%+ paytable could
have a chip with a loose hit rate or a tight hit rate. If you say it can be
done to a slot machine....why not also a VP machine? How is the RNG in VP
different than a Slot?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#11

They are not changing the RNG. They are changing the program chip that determines payback. VP must payback to the paytable in Nevada

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Chuck & Kathy <kc42223@...> wrote:

Good explanation Jean. Now this... if the RNG in a slot machine can be tightened or loosened by changing chips per your explanation, then why can't the casino also tighten or loosen the RNG in the VP machine while leaving the paytable completely alone? So, a VP machine with 100%+ paytable could have a chip with a loose hit rate or a tight hit rate. If you say it can be done to a slot machine....why not also a VP machine? How is the RNG in VP different than a Slot?

I assume a casino's total payout percentage is only reported from all machines including VP....too bad we could not see total payout percentage on just VP from a given casino over time....that would tell us the story on tight or loose changes if they exist.

Chuck and Kathy

--- On Mon, 4/6/09, Jean Scott <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

From: Jean Scott <queenofcomps@...>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Venetian No-Play Days?
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 12:39 AM

I think some of you don't understand the difference between VP and slot
machines and how the word "tighten" is used for each. Yes, the
Venetian IS
"tightening" their JoB machines during sweepstakes, but WE KNOW THAT
because
they change the paytables and we can see that. They are still random, but
their EV is dropped because of the different paytable. So we can choose
not to play those "tighter" games that have been changed to a lower
EV
paytable.

That's different than when a casino changes a chip in a SLOT MACHINE (as
opposed to a VP machine) for a lower payout. We can not tell they have done
that by looking at the machine. We never know slot machine payouts.
________________

#12

Hi Curtis,

On your first point I suspect that the correlation between VP and slots is much weaker than it used to be. I say this based on reading between the lines in conversation with some slot executives.

On your second point, there is very little cost to changing the payout on modern machines. Like VP, the slots have a number of different returns so they can, in fact, change the payout whenever they want and the customers have no way to know.

Bill

···

At 10:19 PM 4/5/2009, you wrote:

Re: "We never know slot machine payouts."

Yes, Jean. But, it has been said many times over that you CAN
judge casinos' slot machines' "tightness" or "looseness" by their
video poker machines' pay schedules.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but general consensus has been:
if a casino offers loose video poker (good pay schedules), then their
slot machines are also relatively loose. So, it must also follow suit
that: if a casino regularly makes changes to its video poker pay
schedules, it does the same thing to their slot machines.

Curtis

On 4/5/09, Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net> wrote:
>
> I think some of you don't understand the difference between VP and slot
> machines and how the word "tighten" is used for each. Yes, the Venetian
> IS
> "tightening" their JoB machines during sweepstakes, but WE KNOW THAT
> because
> they change the paytables and we can see that. They are still random, but
> their EV is dropped because of the different paytable. So we can choose
> not to play those "tighter" games that have been changed to a lower EV
> paytable.
>
> That's different than when a casino changes a chip in a SLOT MACHINE (as
> opposed to a VP machine) for a lower payout. We can not tell they have
> done
> that by looking at the machine. We never know slot machine payouts.
> ________________
> Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
> http://queenofcomps.com/
> You can read my blog at
> http://lasvegasadvisor.com/blogs/jscott/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#13

The RNG is never changed, and the chips are not changed. The programs include the return -- in the case of slot machines by the mapping of virtual reels and for VP the returns for various hands. When the paytable is changed the RNG still maps reels or cards, randomly. The only difference is what symbols show up (reels) and NO difference for VP.

I've posted on this subject on vpFREE (and published a few articles in SS a few years back) that explain how this works in detail). If you still are confused please look those postings up.

Bill

···

At 06:52 AM 4/6/2009, you wrote:

Good explanation Jean. Now this... if the RNG in a slot machine can be tightened or loosened by changing chips per your explanation, then why can't the casino also tighten or loosen the RNG in the VP machine while leaving the paytable completely alone? So, a VP machine with 100%+ paytable could have a chip with a loose hit rate or a tight hit rate. If you say it can be done to a slot machine....why not also a VP machine? How is the RNG in VP different than a Slot?

I assume a casino's total payout percentage is only reported from all machines including VP....too bad we could not see total payout percentage on just VP from a given casino over time....that would tell us the story on tight or loose changes if they exist.

Chuck and Kathy

--- On Mon, 4/6/09, Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net> wrote:

From: Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Venetian No-Play Days?
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 12:39 AM

I think some of you don't understand the difference between VP and slot
machines and how the word "tighten" is used for each. Yes, the
Venetian IS
"tightening" their JoB machines during sweepstakes, but WE KNOW THAT
because
they change the paytables and we can see that. They are still random, but
their EV is dropped because of the different paytable. So we can choose
not to play those "tighter" games that have been changed to a lower
EV
paytable.

That's different than when a casino changes a chip in a SLOT MACHINE (as
opposed to a VP machine) for a lower payout. We can not tell they have done
that by looking at the machine. We never know slot machine payouts.
________________

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#14

Except you can find out by experimentation, within the limits of statistical variability.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

On your second point, there is very little cost
to changing the payout on modern machines. Like
VP, the slots have a number of different returns
so they can, in fact, change the payout whenever
they want and the customers have no way to know.

#15

<<So, a VP machine with 100%+ paytable could have a chip with a loose hit rate or a tight hit rate. If you say it can be done to a slot machine....why not also a VP machine? >>

Short non-technical answer - because in regulated jurisdictions that would be illegal and the casino could lose their gaming license.

···

________________
Jean $�ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://lasvegasadvisor.com/blogs/jscott/

#16

Generally, but it's the particulars that get interesting.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

Generally speaking, there's no slot equivalent to a high ER vp paytable such as 9/6 Jacks.

#17

<<So, a VP machine with 100%+ paytable could have a chip with a loose hit
<<rate or a tight hit rate. If you say it can be done to a slot machine....why
<<not also a VP machine? >>

<<Short non-technical answer - because in regulated jurisdictions that would
<<be illegal and the casino could lose their gaming license.

So it is legal to change the hit rate percentage by changing the chip in a slot machine per your explanation, but it is illegal to change the hit rate percentage by changing the chip in the VP machine?

I am starting to think there is really no such thing as loose or tight regardless of whether it is VP or Slots. If RNGs are random then by definition they are just that...random. How can a chip in a slot make them less random and thus tighter or looser? The term loose seems to come only from the Marketing department of the casino to create a vision of easier winning on slots. Of course the term loose on VP is rarely, if ever, seen in marketing for VP. The paytable makes the only difference on percentage of payback since the results are always decided randomly. VP with better paytables are not "loose", they just pay back a higher percentage with correct play.

Having said that though, I still can not figure out why VPW on "mixed" has such a good hit rate percentage when compared to the same game and paytable with casino VP. If they are truly both random, then the long term results should be statistically close. They are not anywhere near close. The casino hit rates are far lower that VPW on mixed. If I could play VPW for real money....I would be much further ahead.

Our focus on VP should not be on loose or tight, but on paytables and comps if the RNG’s for VP are indeed truly equally random in long term statistics….which they are.

···

From: Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Venetian No-Play Days?
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 3:19 PM

--- On Mon, 4/6/09, Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net> wrote:

From: Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Venetian No-Play Days?
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 3:19 PM

<<So, a VP machine with 100%+ paytable could have a chip with a loose hit
rate or a tight hit rate. If you say it can be done to a slot machine....why
not also a VP machine? >>

Short non-technical answer - because in regulated jurisdictions that would
be illegal and the casino could lose their gaming license.
________________

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#18

Having said that though, I still can not figure out why VPW on "mixed"Â has such
a good hit rate percentage when compared to the same game and paytable with
casino VP. If they are truly both random, then the long term results should be
statistically close. They are not anywhere near close. The casino hit rates
are far lower that VPW on mixed. If I could play VPW for real money....I would
be much further ahead.

I'd suggest that you not save the results at different times and restart the game you play. I get a huge variance from resets on VPW. Some sessions I seem to win most hands but the majority of sessions I take a beating.
I haven't played to seriously in the casino's but on the full pay machines I've managed to get to, my results are much more even.
Alas, no Royal on either VPW or at the casino.

#19

And how large of a sample would be required to get a 95% confidence?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@> wrote:
> On your second point, there is very little cost
> to changing the payout on modern machines. Like
> VP, the slots have a number of different returns
> so they can, in fact, change the payout whenever
> they want and the customers have no way to know.

Except you can find out by experimentation, within the limits of statistical variability.

#20

<<Our focus on VP should not be on loose or tight, but on paytables and comps if the RNG’s for VP are indeed truly equally random in long term statistics….which they are.>>

That has always been my focus. I don't usually use the words "loose" or "tight" when I talk about VP, but some experts do because that's what most uninformed gamblers understand best.

This is what Anthony Curtis said in yesterday's QOD: "The great thing about video poker is that you can tell exactly how "loose" (full pay) or "tight" (less than full pay) every VP machine is simply by reading and analyzing the pay schedule."

···

________________
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://lasvegasadvisor.com/blogs/jscott/