vpFREE2 Forums

Twas The Night Before New Years

#1

Would have skipped this without Mickey's heads up. Enjoyed the poem & the
references. The passage below made me think of another who sat down to play
next to me at the Edgewater bar which had the triple-play quarters
progressives many years ago. When he told me who he was, I wondered why someone
with his superior bankroll would play quarters. After listening to him talk
about Laughlin, it was obvious that he knew every play on the River & this
was probably the best play available. As he talked, I realized he was just
very competitive & the stakes didn't matter. Turns out, there are quite a few
people like that. Case in point are those well off to gamble enough to win
the Strip casino drawings. You learn a painful lesson when your couple of
hrs on the $ 5-play are outclassed by the fellow camping on the $25
triple-play.

In a message dated 12/25/2010 1:22:08 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
vpFREE@yahoogroups.com writes:

Too bad we weren't sitting by good old Bob Dancer.
He'd passed by the bank, with nary a word,
His bankroll so large, he thought dollars absurd.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Interesting story. I have a subheading in my book entitled "King of the Hill" about just such a person, who played quarters just to be competitive, long after he had attained a $5 token bankroll and then some.

Happy holidays...

FK

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, TedChee@... wrote:

Would have skipped this without Mickey's heads up. Enjoyed the poem & the
references. The passage below made me think of another who sat down to play
next to me at the Edgewater bar which had the triple-play quarters
progressives many years ago. When he told me who he was, I wondered why someone
with his superior bankroll would play quarters. After listening to him talk
about Laughlin, it was obvious that he knew every play on the River & this
was probably the best play available. As he talked, I realized he was just
very competitive & the stakes didn't matter. Turns out, there are quite a few
people like that. Case in point are those well off to gamble enough to win
the Strip casino drawings. You learn a painful lesson when your couple of
hrs on the $ 5-play are outclassed by the fellow camping on the $25
triple-play.

In a message dated 12/25/2010 1:22:08 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
vpFREE@yahoogroups.com writes:

Too bad we weren't sitting by good old Bob Dancer.
He'd passed by the bank, with nary a word,
His bankroll so large, he thought dollars absurd.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

Tuna Lund had similar tendencies. He'd jump your flush attack light if he was passing by and it happened to be on. Some advantage slot games were on multi-game machines. If he was passing that way he would always punch them up and take a look. Even if it was a nickel game like Red Hot Sevens, which if you found a play it was generally only worth a few bucks. Tuna absoolutely wouldn't leave it if there was a play there.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

Interesting story. I have a subheading in my book entitled "King of >the Hill" about just such a person, who played quarters just to be >competitive, long after he had attained a $5 token bankroll and then >some.

#4

I wanted to add something for the readers out there. Mickey's story about Tuna is accurate and true. I can confirm it: Tuna tried to snap me off on several occasions...and failed.

What Mickey did not add in his story is a judgment of Tuna's behavior as good or bad.

I think it is bad, and likely an indicator of obsessive gambling.

Mickey, if I'm putting words in your mouth, please chastise me severely. I just don't want people reading your story about Tuna and thinking it is a recommendation on how one should be.

My knowledge of Tuna is severely limited, but from what I know he was a perfect example of a winning professional with a severe gambling addiction, and exactly the kind of person the prompted me to do my radio show the other night on professional gambling addiction.

If I'm wrong please correct me.

FK

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:
>
> Interesting story. I have a subheading in my book entitled "King of >the Hill" about just such a person, who played quarters just to be >competitive, long after he had attained a $5 token bankroll and then >some.
>
Tuna Lund had similar tendencies. He'd jump your flush attack light if he was passing by and it happened to be on. Some advantage slot games were on multi-game machines. If he was passing that way he would always punch them up and take a look. Even if it was a nickel game like Red Hot Sevens, which if you found a play it was generally only worth a few bucks. Tuna absoolutely wouldn't leave it if there was a play there.

#5

I never really thought about him before in terms of being an addicted gambler. Tuna and I never said a word to each other. I merely observed him here and there and heard stories about him. He didn't care much for lowbankrollers like me. He wouldn't give a lowbankroller the time of day from what I observed.

I first observed him at the 1992 WSOP where he came in third. I had no clue who he was then, other than a poker player. I was new to gambling then. It wasn't until I got into video poker in 1996 that I started hearing about his exploits as a machine pro. And some of the stories I heard were definitely bad. He may have been an addicted gambler but it appears to me, from some of those stories that he was also severely addicted to winning at any cost.

One lady related a story to me about a big promotion at the Reno Hilton many years ago. There was two drawings a day for $5,000 each. The tickets were earned by hitting four of a kinds. She and her little crew had two quarter machines locked up. Tuna had a dollar bank of 8/5 Bonus Poker progressives locked up. There was 14 machines in the bank. There were meters on the Royal and the Quads. The royal meter was .75%, and the quad meters were .25%. Tuna had his team on the bank. Some member of his team hit practically every drawing. Yet, the lady told me that Tuna tried to commandeer here two machines.

I've been told that if Tuna got to a big play late, if all the good machines were locked up, and no one would cut him in on the play, he would walk into slot operations and rat the whole play out.

He's been quoted as saying "If I had all the money in the world I would want more." He's also been quoted as saying he didn't intend to let another machine pro in the world catch him bankrollwise.

He was definitely a bully.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

I wanted to add something for the readers out there. Mickey's story >about Tuna is accurate and true. I can confirm it: Tuna tried to >snap me off on several occasions...and failed. What Mickey did not >add in his story is a judgment of Tuna's behavior as good or bad.
I think it is bad, and likely an indicator of obsessive gambling.
Mickey, if I'm putting words in your mouth, please chastise me >severely. I just don't want people reading your story about Tuna and >thinking it is a recommendation on how one should be. My knowledge >of Tuna is severely limited, but from what I know he was a perfect >example of a winning professional with a severe gambling addiction, >and exactly the kind of person the prompted me to do my radio show >the other night on professional gambling addiction.

If I'm wrong please correct me.

FK

#6

What I should have written here is Tuna was definitely a bully when it came to gambling plays. I don't know enough about it but his bullyism could have been a manifestation of one who is addicted to gambling.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

He was definitely a bully.

#7

Frank, You are very refreshitng in gambling. I'm glad that you show'd up. I think that you are after showing people the real motivations, the real conditions, the real process, the real psycology of professional gamblers. I think that is a good thing. I think the people of the world deserve to know the thought process of idiots like us.

I'm a Christian boy from Scott County, Mississippi. How did I get roped into this life of sin? That's a long story that I don't want to tell tonight.

You're pretty good at breaking down the psychology of it, Frank.... too damn good. I'm a highschool dropout. I never even took algebra. When I decided I wanted to be on a par with you big shot gamblin' asses. I took it to heart. Fairlure was not an option.

I got myself on an even par with you kind best of the gamblin' folks, knowledge wise, that is. But the truth is Frank, I'm not on an even par with you. I can do the math as good as you. But I can't do the psycholy as good as you. I have no rhyme, reason, or hell why I succeeded in gambling, other than my sheer ability.

But you better understand this. Whether I jump off a freight train in Ogden, Nevada or Cheyenne, Wyoming. Whether I check into a soup line. Whether I check into a mission. Whether I got kicked to the curb my my childhood sweetheart. Whether I got my ass kicked on a play. Whether I walk thru a parking lot of a shopping center with my backpack on and hear the clicking sound of all the people sitting in their cars hitting their door locks, I know who the hell I am.

I made myself out to be a gambler in a big time gambling world. But I was also pushing 40 before I got into it.

What's my motivation for the whole damn thing? I'm a clean and pure survivor. The way I lived my life, I pushed myself into a deep dark corner. The only way out was gamblin'. That's the truth, brother.

#8

How could he "commandeer" machines from people already sitting there? Anybody who tried to force me off a machine would just make me more determined to park my ass there.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

One lady related a story to me about a big promotion at the Reno Hilton many years ago. There was two drawings a day for $5,000 each. The tickets were earned by hitting four of a kinds. She and her little crew had two quarter machines locked up. Tuna had a dollar bank of 8/5 Bonus Poker progressives locked up. There was 14 machines in the bank. There were meters on the Royal and the Quads. The royal meter was .75%, and the quad meters were .25%. Tuna had his team on the bank. Some member of his team hit practically every drawing. Yet, the lady told me that Tuna tried to commandeer here two machines.

#9

Hmmm, this sounds familiar. When reading the above it reminds me of a certain play in Laughlin and a particular video poker book author.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

I've been told that if Tuna got to a big play late, if all the good machines were locked up, and no one would cut him in on the play, he would walk into slot operations and rat the whole play out.

#10

Tuna could be very convincing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Lund

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mike" <melbedewy1226@...> wrote:

How could he "commandeer" machines from people already sitting there? Anybody who tried to force me off a machine would just make me more determined to park my ass there.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:

> One lady related a story to me about a big promotion at the Reno Hilton many years ago. There was two drawings a day for $5,000 each. The tickets were earned by hitting four of a kinds. She and her little crew had two quarter machines locked up. Tuna had a dollar bank of 8/5 Bonus Poker progressives locked up. There was 14 machines in the bank. There were meters on the Royal and the Quads. The royal meter was .75%, and the quad meters were .25%. Tuna had his team on the bank. Some member of his team hit practically every drawing. Yet, the lady told me that Tuna tried to commandeer here two machines.

#11

Alright with your input I now have an extra verse for the poem:

Had Tuna been there, He'd have cried unfair
If I can't have a seat, then no one gets meat,
for my ego's sake, I say, "let them eat cake."

The psychological issue you now attribute to Tuna is covered in my book in the subheading, "King of the Hill". I wasn't talking about Tuna in that particular subheading, but it fits better than OJ's glove.

I think the reason pro gambling can exacerbate pre existing conditions is because of its unstructured nature.

1. You work as much as you want
2. You work whenever you want
3. Your income has a 1 to 1 correlation to the hours you put in
4. No bell sounds at shifts end, and no one tells you to go home
5. The only measure of your success is against others of your ilk
6. And the only measuring stick for self worth available, is money

I don't think pro gambling causes mental problems, but it sure as hell doesn't fix them. It's like giving bullets to a suicidal person with a currently empty gun. Hand bullets to anyone without a gun, and they are relatively harmless...unless you use them as fuses in your truck.

Only people with the ability to structure their own lives, find any sort of equilibrium to retain balance in their lives.

~Gambling can add to a person that already has a full life, but it can't fill a life that's empty.

~FK

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:
>
> He was definitely a bully.
>
What I should have written here is Tuna was definitely a bully when it came to gambling plays. I don't know enough about it but his bullyism could have been a manifestation of one who is addicted to gambling.

#12

Thanks again for your praise, it always makes me a little uncomfortable. I'm may not be 1/10th as dedicated as you.

I'm sorry to say the reason for my insight is the same reason that sparked the intellectual and philosophical revolution in ancient Greece 2400 years ago...Free time and an easy life. I had dual loving genius parents, that nurtured me and never questioned the paths I took in life.

I have little doubt that had I been faced with the adversity you describe, we wouldn't be having this discourse now. I can dance like a butterfly and sting like a bee, but I can't take a punch for crap.

I'm a progressive specialist. You are almost certainly the better overall professional gambler.

And for comedy's sake, let's leave it up to the peanut gallery to decide whether or not that is a "good" thing?

Happy new year all. Watch out for Snapper & Tapper, alert on the prowl.

~FK

~P.S. I was "Snapper".

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

Frank, You are very refreshitng in gambling. I'm glad that you show'd up. I think that you are after showing people the real motivations, the real conditions, the real process, the real psycology of professional gamblers. I think that is a good thing. I think the people of the world deserve to know the thought process of idiots like us.

I'm a Christian boy from Scott County, Mississippi. How did I get roped into this life of sin? That's a long story that I don't want to tell tonight.

You're pretty good at breaking down the psychology of it, Frank.... too damn good. I'm a highschool dropout. I never even took algebra. When I decided I wanted to be on a par with you big shot gamblin' asses. I took it to heart. Fairlure was not an option.

I got myself on an even par with you kind best of the gamblin' folks, knowledge wise, that is. But the truth is Frank, I'm not on an even par with you. I can do the math as good as you. But I can't do the psycholy as good as you. I have no rhyme, reason, or hell why I succeeded in gambling, other than my sheer ability.

But you better understand this. Whether I jump off a freight train in Ogden, Nevada or Cheyenne, Wyoming. Whether I check into a soup line. Whether I check into a mission. Whether I got kicked to the curb my my childhood sweetheart. Whether I got my ass kicked on a play. Whether I walk thru a parking lot of a shopping center with my backpack on and hear the clicking sound of all the people sitting in their cars hitting their door locks, I know who the hell I am.

I made myself out to be a gambler in a big time gambling world. But I was also pushing 40 before I got into it.

What's my motivation for the whole damn thing? I'm a clean and pure survivor. The way I lived my life, I pushed myself into a deep dark corner. The only way out was gamblin'. That's the truth, brother.

#13

Well it certainly wasn't me. Our team operated on gang rules, you never involve the man.

The worst/best thing I ever did was to hire a really pretty topless dancer, I had hoped to date, to sweet talk an independent pro off a machine. It worked, but she ended up dating him instead of me.

So I traded a girl for a machine.

I paid her $500 for the service, and I believe the play rendered about $8,000 in profit.

I still think the joke was on me.

FK

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hockeystl" <vegasstl@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:

> I've been told that if Tuna got to a big play late, if all the good machines were locked up, and no one would cut him in on the play, he would walk into slot operations and rat the whole play out.

Hmmm, this sounds familiar. When reading the above it reminds me of a certain play in Laughlin and a particular video poker book author.

#14

The real funny stuff about commandeering or getting people off their machines belongs to the real down and out crack head type advantage slot hustlers. Sklansky called them bottom feeders. We're talking advantage slots like Wild Cherry Pie, Fishin' For Cash, Double Diamond Mine, Triple Diamond Mine, Diamond Thief, Money Factory, Times Pay, Slot Bingo, Mystery Bonus. All part of the IGT Vision Series.

Take a tourist playing a Wild Cherry Pie and gets it down to just a few cherries to go before the machine coughs up the bonus. One hustler would sit down on one side of the tourist. Another hustler on the other side. They both put bills in their machines but they hardly play. They both got lit cigarettes in their mouths and puffing smoke to beat hell, blowing it all over the tourist. And talking loudly to each other right through the tourist until the tourist gets pissed and leaves....also leaving them a big fat play.

I'll have to tell you about Nick the Sick sometime.

#15

Guys-it is all very amusing- but very hard to believe.
A little proof, not anecdotes would be more convincing.

#16

The real funny stuff about commandeering or getting people off their machines belongs to the real down and out crack head type advantage slot hustlers. Sklansky called them bottom feeders. We're talking advantage slots like Wild Cherry Pie, Fishin' For Cash, Double Diamond Mine, Triple Diamond Mine, Diamond Thief, Money Factory, Times Pay, Slot Bingo, Mystery Bonus. All part of the IGT Vision Series.

Take a tourist playing a Wild Cherry Pie and gets it down to just a few cherries to go before the machine coughs up the bonus. One hustler would sit down on one side of the tourist. Another hustler on the other side. They both put bills in their machines but they hardly play. They both got lit cigarettes in their mouths and puffing smoke to beat hell, blowing it all over the tourist. And talking loudly to each other right through the tourist until the tourist gets pissed and leaves....also leaving them a big fat play.

I'll have to tell you about Nick the Sick sometime.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

#17

Nothing in this territory scares me. But it is obvious about you two idiots.

#18

If I catch you two queers in my territory I'm gonna rat you little bastards out. Don't come sneaking in this neck of of woods....

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

Nothing in this territory scares me. But it is obvious about you two idiots.

#19

We have a skeptic in our midst. First, let me say I advocate skepticism strongly. My Father used to say, "believe only half of what you see and none of what your hear." I took it to heart. I can hardly fault you for being like me.

Here though, your doubt is misplaced. We don't want your money and we aren't trying to sell you anything.

I don't know Mickey personally, and in fact I was totally separate from the independent pros that he hung with. We were not friends, if anything we were enemies. So consider me as outside a source as you can get.

I can confirm almost everything he has said, in every post he has ever made. And the ones I have no knowledge of, still ring true to the best of my own personal experience.

I could have half a dozen pros I know confirm all my stories, not the least of which would be Bob Dancer, Jean Scott, and Dan Paymar. The three major authors in the VP biz today.

But other than a large number of independent conformations from multiple sources, how does one really prove anything that happens to them in the course of a normal day...unless they are on a reality TV show.

Look, here's the real truth of it, far too many outrageous things happen in the world of pro gambling, on a nearly daily basis, to necessitate making up anything. The truth is interesting enough.

If you would still like proof of a particular story, let me know and I'll have some of the other witnesses email you. Really though you should reserve your skepticism for campaign promises and that your car's insurance policy will actually cover anything that breaks regularly.

~A man with one watch knows the time. A man with two is never sure.

~Happy New Year

~Frank Kneeland, Author of The Secret World of Video Poker Progressives--A History and How-To of Video Poker Slot Teams in Las Vegas. www.progressivevp.com

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jim_mason7" <7711-jimmason@...> wrote:

Guys-it is all very amusing- but very hard to believe.
A little proof, not anecdotes would be more convincing.

#20

I have a correction to my Mickey inspired Tuna addition to my New Years Poem. I noticed the one I had added earlier, did not match the format of the rest of the poem.

Soon the bank was locked up, only one seat was live,
  Played by a tourist, who didn't rate to survive.
Had Tuna seen fit to deem to been there,
  He'd have bellowed and blustered and shouted, "unfair"
If no one now seated will give up their seat,
  then to theses peasants and rabble, I say, "no one gets meat"
For my delicate ego and sanity's sake,
  Through them all off the bank, and "let them eat cake".

I would encourage others to write their own verses and we can expand the poem.

~Happy News Years Folks