vpFREE2 Forums

The New Progressives At The M

#1

I'm sure lots of opinions and comments have been made about these interestingly different machines. I've sat and played at the 25c SDBP ($1650 RF) version for 45 minutes as a test (quitting with a meaningless profit when four J's were hit), I've gone over all the numbers, and I have my own view of what these new machines mean to the casino and the player.

As has been said, anyone who plays the lousy paytables when the royals are small is at a serious disadvantage, and some WILL play them at low royal levels. But since every credit bet on SDBP (or whatever game) contributes the exact same .5% to all 8 royals, the theory is the "experts" will only play the >100% games when they go that high, and in doing so, in conjunction with the unskilled players going at the lesser valued royals, they'll raise the royals on the other 7 or so games to "playable levels", thereby always having something positive to go after.

BTW the signs around the casino aren't true. "Up to 102.5%", if the machines are fair, is wrong. If the royals aren't hit by the time the games reach a theoretical 102.5%, obviously it goes higher. Unless I'm missing something. Am I?

It is very clear these machines will be just another money-maker for the casino and are a bad deal for the player. The optimal royal flush strategies for progressives of this type are a constantly moving target, and no expert, including yours truly, is capable of learning and then applying absolute expert strategy on so many different games on an as-required basis. As a result, even the best of players will continue to play at a sub 100% level no matter how high the royals go.

At the end of the day these machines simply become nothing more than a pot shot for players seeking the thrill of hitting large 25c/50c/$1 royals. I was surprised that when I was playing them last Saturday night around 9pm, there was only one other person playing. You can tell the meters run much faster than anything we've seen in years. But when people stopped by to look the games over they didn't really care what the royals were. All they commented on were the poor pay tables.

#2

rob.singer1111 wrote:

The optimal royal flush strategies for progressives of
this type are a constantly moving target, and no expert,
including yours truly, is capable of learning and then
applying absolute expert strategy on so many different
games on an as-required basis. As a result, even the
best of players will continue to play at a sub 100%
level no matter how high the royals go.

It is not at all accurate to think that a player
using a less than optimal strategy is playing a less than
100% game. In fact for different goals there will be different
"optimal" strategies. For instance if it is the player's desire
to extract the most total dollars from his play, then he
should use the strategy that minimizes the cost of hitting
the RF. This min. cost strategy will be constant regardless
of the RF progressive amount and will differ from the strategy
that yields the maximum EV per hand (except at exactly the
break even point for the RF). So until the goal of the play
is defined the terms "optimal strategy" and "absolute expert
strategy" are ill defined.

For more detailed information on alternative strategies
(i.e. differing from the usual max EV strategy) search for
posts from Steve Jacobs.

G'luck all,
Gamb00ler

#3

As I said at the beginning, these games are for suckers.
Royal chasing suckers!

No matter what strategy you use, the paytables are set so low, if play for any length of time, and you don't hit the Royal, you lose. PERIOD!

Great Money maker for M. Great publicity creator for M. All bad for the average player.

The progressives are doing their job. Getting people to talk about and revisit the place. Most will not just walk in and walk out, but drop a few bucks along the way in OTHER machines. THe billboard is an outright lie. Even at 16,000 coins you don't reach 102%.But the UP TO is in front of that number. Maybe they are "set to hit" at that mark. Will be interesting to see. Why don't they just say, up to 200% payback? Royal up to one million coins? It could get there. Theorectically that is if no one hits for a very long time and people keep playing it. Not likely, but it could happen.

May as well play megabucks. At least then when you hit it, you win something worthwhile.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rob.singer1111" <rob.singer1111@...> wrote:

I'm sure lots of opinions and comments have been made about these interestingly different machines. I've sat and played at the 25c SDBP ($1650 RF) version for 45 minutes as a test (quitting with a meaningless profit when four J's were hit), I've gone over all the numbers, and I have my own view of what these new machines mean to the casino and the player.

As has been said, anyone who plays the lousy paytables when the royals are small is at a serious disadvantage, and some WILL play them at low royal levels. But since every credit bet on SDBP (or whatever game) contributes the exact same .5% to all 8 royals, the theory is the "experts" will only play the >100% games when they go that high, and in doing so, in conjunction with the unskilled players going at the lesser valued royals, they'll raise the royals on the other 7 or so games to "playable levels", thereby always having something positive to go after.

BTW the signs around the casino aren't true. "Up to 102.5%", if the machines are fair, is wrong. If the royals aren't hit by the time the games reach a theoretical 102.5%, obviously it goes higher. Unless I'm missing something. Am I?

It is very clear these machines will be just another money-maker for the casino and are a bad deal for the player. The optimal royal flush strategies for progressives of this type are a constantly moving target, and no expert, including yours truly, is capable of learning and then applying absolute expert strategy on so many different games on an as-required basis. As a result, even the best of players will continue to play at a sub 100% level no matter how high the royals go.

At the end of the day these machines simply become nothing more than a pot shot for players seeking the thrill of hitting large 25c/50c/$1 royals. I was surprised that when I was playing them last Saturday night around 9pm, there was only one other person playing. You can tell the meters run much faster than anything we've seen in years. But when people stopped by to look the games over they didn't really care what the royals were. All they commented on were the poor pay tables.

#4

This kind of thinking/mathematics makes zero sense to me.

If you take out the jackpots/royals/4 dueces from ANY
game the paytable worsens.

The casino WILL be paying them off and they ARE
part of your EV for sure.

Saying that playing an over 100% game with less than 5%
of your Ev being the big jackpots is like Megabucks, an
under 50% game with more than 5% of your Ev being
on the jackpots doesn't make sense.

Am I missing something, or does Miss Realtor just
not like Frank and Bob?

···

--- On Mon, 5/30/11, the7thwarrior <Judy@realtor.com> wrote:

From: the7thwarrior <Judy@realtor.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: The New Progressives At The M
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 10:13 AM

As I said at the beginning, these games are for suckers.
Royal chasing suckers!

No matter what strategy you use, the paytables are set so low, if play for any length of time, and you don't hit the Royal, you lose. PERIOD!

Great Money maker for M. Great publicity creator for M. All bad for the average player.

The progressives are doing their job. Getting people to talk about and revisit the place. Most will not just walk in and walk out, but drop a few bucks along the way in OTHER machines. THe billboard is an outright lie. Even at 16,000 coins you don't reach 102%.But the UP TO is in front of that number. Maybe they are "set to hit" at that mark. Will be interesting to see. Why don't they just say, up to 200% payback? Royal up to one million coins? It could get there. Theorectically that is if no one hits for a very long time and people keep playing it. Not likely, but it could happen.

May as well play megabucks. At least then when you hit it, you win something worthwhile.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rob.singer1111" <rob.singer1111@...> wrote:

I'm sure lots of opinions and comments have been made about these interestingly different machines. I've sat and played at the 25c SDBP ($1650 RF) version for 45 minutes as a test (quitting with a meaningless profit when four J's were hit), I've gone over all the numbers, and I have my own view of what these new machines mean to the casino and the player.

As has been said, anyone who plays the lousy paytables when the royals are small is at a serious disadvantage, and some WILL play them at low royal levels. But since every credit bet on SDBP (or whatever game) contributes the exact same .5% to all 8 royals, the theory is the "experts" will only play the >100% games when they go that high, and in doing so, in conjunction with the unskilled players going at the lesser valued royals, they'll raise the royals on the other 7 or so games to "playable levels", thereby always having something positive to go after.

BTW the signs around the casino aren't true. "Up to 102.5%", if the machines are fair, is wrong. If the royals aren't hit by the time the games reach a theoretical 102.5%, obviously it goes higher. Unless I'm missing something. Am I?

It is very clear these machines will be just another money-maker for the casino and are a bad deal for the player. The optimal royal flush strategies for progressives of this type are a constantly moving target, and no expert, including yours truly, is capable of learning and then applying absolute expert strategy on so many different games on an as-required basis. As a result, even the best of players will continue to play at a sub 100% level no matter how high the royals go.

At the end of the day these machines simply become nothing more than a pot shot for players seeking the thrill of hitting large 25c/50c/$1 royals. I was surprised that when I was playing them last Saturday night around 9pm, there was only one other person playing. You can tell the meters run much faster than anything we've seen in years. But when people stopped by to look the games over they didn't really care what the royals were. All they commented on were the poor pay tables.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

I am NOT thinking EV. I am NOT talking long term, months, years.

I am thinking if you want to lose $20, or $100, as most are doing at these progressives. May as well spend it at a game where it will be life changing, rather than a few thousand dollars.
Your money will last about the same amount of time, IF you don't hit the jackpot. (A variance of up to 300 vs. Jacks or Better at 19.)

I must admit I am guilty of Royal chasing. But how long are you gonna play before you hit something? How many thousands are you willing to dump into the machine to hit it?

With a 100% around $2750 for this machine, that means (without cashback and club benefits) you are willing to lose a over $2700 to hit that quarter Royal to make $50.

That is if everything goes as planned. And you get that Royal within the 30 to 50 thousand hands as statistics shows. If you are unlucky and it goes beyond that, as this progressive has already done, then you lose even when you hit it.

The progressive goes up about 1/2 of one cent every time someone plays. So it has risen over $1500. Or if my shaky math is correct been played, 300,000 times. Of course not everyone is playing that game of course. Some are playing more familiar ones, but even if it is being played only 1/8 the time, (8 games on the machine) it is still "overdue" for that elusive Royal.

Most of us are not playing for days on end to hit that Royal, but taking pot shots at it. Someone will sit down with $5 and hit it.
Like the lottery, someone has to win.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Cohen <brucedcohen2002@...> wrote:

This kind of thinking/mathematics makes zero sense to me.
Â
If you take out the jackpots/royals/4 dueces from ANY
game the paytable worsens.
Â
The casino WILL be paying them off and they ARE
part of your EV for sure.
Â
Saying that playing an over 100% game with less than 5%
of your Ev being the big jackpots is like Megabucks, an
under 50% game with more than 5% of your Ev being
on the jackpots doesn't make sense.
Â
Am I missing something, or does Miss Realtor just
not like Frank and Bob?

--- On Mon, 5/30/11, the7thwarrior <Judy@...> wrote:

From: the7thwarrior <Judy@...>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: The New Progressives At The M
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 10:13 AM

Â

As I said at the beginning, these games are for suckers.
Royal chasing suckers!

No matter what strategy you use, the paytables are set so low, if play for any length of time, and you don't hit the Royal, you lose. PERIOD!

Great Money maker for M. Great publicity creator for M. All bad for the average player.

The progressives are doing their job. Getting people to talk about and revisit the place. Most will not just walk in and walk out, but drop a few bucks along the way in OTHER machines. THe billboard is an outright lie. Even at 16,000 coins you don't reach 102%.But the UP TO is in front of that number. Maybe they are "set to hit" at that mark. Will be interesting to see. Why don't they just say, up to 200% payback? Royal up to one million coins? It could get there. Theorectically that is if no one hits for a very long time and people keep playing it. Not likely, but it could happen.

May as well play megabucks. At least then when you hit it, you win something worthwhile.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rob.singer1111" <rob.singer1111@> wrote:
>
> I'm sure lots of opinions and comments have been made about these interestingly different machines. I've sat and played at the 25c SDBP ($1650 RF) version for 45 minutes as a test (quitting with a meaningless profit when four J's were hit), I've gone over all the numbers, and I have my own view of what these new machines mean to the casino and the player.
>
> As has been said, anyone who plays the lousy paytables when the royals are small is at a serious disadvantage, and some WILL play them at low royal levels. But since every credit bet on SDBP (or whatever game) contributes the exact same .5% to all 8 royals, the theory is the "experts" will only play the >100% games when they go that high, and in doing so, in conjunction with the unskilled players going at the lesser valued royals, they'll raise the royals on the other 7 or so games to "playable levels", thereby always having something positive to go after.
>
> BTW the signs around the casino aren't true. "Up to 102.5%", if the machines are fair, is wrong. If the royals aren't hit by the time the games reach a theoretical 102.5%, obviously it goes higher. Unless I'm missing something. Am I?
>
> It is very clear these machines will be just another money-maker for the casino and are a bad deal for the player. The optimal royal flush strategies for progressives of this type are a constantly moving target, and no expert, including yours truly, is capable of learning and then applying absolute expert strategy on so many different games on an as-required basis. As a result, even the best of players will continue to play at a sub 100% level no matter how high the royals go.
>
> At the end of the day these machines simply become nothing more than a pot shot for players seeking the thrill of hitting large 25c/50c/$1 royals. I was surprised that when I was playing them last Saturday night around 9pm, there was only one other person playing. You can tell the meters run much faster than anything we've seen in years. But when people stopped by to look the games over they didn't really care what the royals were. All they commented on were the poor pay tables.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

Since the Joker Poker is now at 102% plus freebies I wonder why these much heralded "teams" aren't banging away at all 20 machines 24/7?
LOL.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "the7thwarrior" <Judy@...> wrote:

I am NOT thinking EV. I am NOT talking long term, months, years.

I am thinking if you want to lose $20, or $100, as most are doing at these progressives. May as well spend it at a game where it will be life changing, rather than a few thousand dollars.
Your money will last about the same amount of time, IF you don't hit the jackpot. (A variance of up to 300 vs. Jacks or Better at 19.)

I must admit I am guilty of Royal chasing. But how long are you gonna play before you hit something? How many thousands are you willing to dump into the machine to hit it?

With a 100% around $2750 for this machine, that means (without cashback and club benefits) you are willing to lose a over $2700 to hit that quarter Royal to make $50.

That is if everything goes as planned. And you get that Royal within the 30 to 50 thousand hands as statistics shows. If you are unlucky and it goes beyond that, as this progressive has already done, then you lose even when you hit it.

The progressive goes up about 1/2 of one cent every time someone plays. So it has risen over $1500. Or if my shaky math is correct been played, 300,000 times. Of course not everyone is playing that game of course. Some are playing more familiar ones, but even if it is being played only 1/8 the time, (8 games on the machine) it is still "overdue" for that elusive Royal.

Most of us are not playing for days on end to hit that Royal, but taking pot shots at it. Someone will sit down with $5 and hit it.
Like the lottery, someone has to win.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Cohen <brucedcohen2002@> wrote:
>
> This kind of thinking/mathematics makes zero sense to me.
> Â
> If you take out the jackpots/royals/4 dueces from ANY
> game the paytable worsens.
> Â
> The casino WILL be paying them off and they ARE
> part of your EV for sure.
> Â
> Saying that playing an over 100% game with less than 5%
> of your Ev being the big jackpots is like Megabucks, an
> under 50% game with more than 5% of your Ev being
> on the jackpots doesn't make sense.
> Â
> Am I missing something, or does Miss Realtor just
> not like Frank and Bob?
>
> --- On Mon, 5/30/11, the7thwarrior <Judy@> wrote:
>
>
> From: the7thwarrior <Judy@>
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: The New Progressives At The M
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 10:13 AM
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> As I said at the beginning, these games are for suckers.
> Royal chasing suckers!
>
> No matter what strategy you use, the paytables are set so low, if play for any length of time, and you don't hit the Royal, you lose. PERIOD!
>
> Great Money maker for M. Great publicity creator for M. All bad for the average player.
>
> The progressives are doing their job. Getting people to talk about and revisit the place. Most will not just walk in and walk out, but drop a few bucks along the way in OTHER machines. THe billboard is an outright lie. Even at 16,000 coins you don't reach 102%.But the UP TO is in front of that number. Maybe they are "set to hit" at that mark. Will be interesting to see. Why don't they just say, up to 200% payback? Royal up to one million coins? It could get there. Theorectically that is if no one hits for a very long time and people keep playing it. Not likely, but it could happen.
>
> May as well play megabucks. At least then when you hit it, you win something worthwhile.
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rob.singer1111" <rob.singer1111@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure lots of opinions and comments have been made about these interestingly different machines. I've sat and played at the 25c SDBP ($1650 RF) version for 45 minutes as a test (quitting with a meaningless profit when four J's were hit), I've gone over all the numbers, and I have my own view of what these new machines mean to the casino and the player.
> >
> > As has been said, anyone who plays the lousy paytables when the royals are small is at a serious disadvantage, and some WILL play them at low royal levels. But since every credit bet on SDBP (or whatever game) contributes the exact same .5% to all 8 royals, the theory is the "experts" will only play the >100% games when they go that high, and in doing so, in conjunction with the unskilled players going at the lesser valued royals, they'll raise the royals on the other 7 or so games to "playable levels", thereby always having something positive to go after.
> >
> > BTW the signs around the casino aren't true. "Up to 102.5%", if the machines are fair, is wrong. If the royals aren't hit by the time the games reach a theoretical 102.5%, obviously it goes higher. Unless I'm missing something. Am I?
> >
> > It is very clear these machines will be just another money-maker for the casino and are a bad deal for the player. The optimal royal flush strategies for progressives of this type are a constantly moving target, and no expert, including yours truly, is capable of learning and then applying absolute expert strategy on so many different games on an as-required basis. As a result, even the best of players will continue to play at a sub 100% level no matter how high the royals go.
> >
> > At the end of the day these machines simply become nothing more than a pot shot for players seeking the thrill of hitting large 25c/50c/$1 royals. I was surprised that when I was playing them last Saturday night around 9pm, there was only one other person playing. You can tell the meters run much faster than anything we've seen in years. But when people stopped by to look the games over they didn't really care what the royals were. All they commented on were the poor pay tables.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

#7

As much as you rail against this progressive, it seems as if somehow you deem their presence a personal insult.

You're not wrong about the risk in playing the bank when only modestly positive. That should be a no-brainer conclusion for anyone with moderate intelligence. So do what your gut says is right and only play when the meters represent an attractive opportunity, factoring the risk.

Or, if you really just can't get your head around the math, leave the play for others and don't sweat it any more than any other game you find unattractive.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "the7thwarrior" <Judy@...> wrote:

I am NOT thinking EV. I am NOT talking long term, months, years.

I am thinking if you want to lose $20, or $100, as most are doing at these progressives. May as well spend it at a game where it will be life changing, rather than a few thousand dollars.
Your money will last about the same amount of time, IF you don't hit the jackpot. (A variance of up to 300 vs. Jacks or Better at 19.)

I must admit I am guilty of Royal chasing. But how long are you gonna play before you hit something? How many thousands are you willing to dump into the machine to hit it?

With a 100% around $2750 for this machine, that means (without cashback and club benefits) you are willing to lose a over $2700 to hit that quarter Royal to make $50.

That is if everything goes as planned. And you get that Royal within the 30 to 50 thousand hands as statistics shows. If you are unlucky and it goes beyond that, as this progressive has already done, then you lose even when you hit it.

The progressive goes up about 1/2 of one cent every time someone plays. So it has risen over $1500. Or if my shaky math is correct been played, 300,000 times. Of course not everyone is playing that game of course. Some are playing more familiar ones, but even if it is being played only 1/8 the time, (8 games on the machine) it is still "overdue" for that elusive Royal.

Most of us are not playing for days on end to hit that Royal, but taking pot shots at it. Someone will sit down with $5 and hit it.
Like the lottery, someone has to win.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Cohen <brucedcohen2002@> wrote:
>
> This kind of thinking/mathematics makes zero sense to me.
> Â
> If you take out the jackpots/royals/4 dueces from ANY
> game the paytable worsens.
> Â
> The casino WILL be paying them off and they ARE
> part of your EV for sure.
> Â
> Saying that playing an over 100% game with less than 5%
> of your Ev being the big jackpots is like Megabucks, an
> under 50% game with more than 5% of your Ev being
> on the jackpots doesn't make sense.
> Â
> Am I missing something, or does Miss Realtor just
> not like Frank and Bob?
>
> --- On Mon, 5/30/11, the7thwarrior <Judy@> wrote:
>
>
> From: the7thwarrior <Judy@>
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: The New Progressives At The M
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 10:13 AM
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> As I said at the beginning, these games are for suckers.
> Royal chasing suckers!
>
> No matter what strategy you use, the paytables are set so low, if play for any length of time, and you don't hit the Royal, you lose. PERIOD!
>
> Great Money maker for M. Great publicity creator for M. All bad for the average player.
>
> The progressives are doing their job. Getting people to talk about and revisit the place. Most will not just walk in and walk out, but drop a few bucks along the way in OTHER machines. THe billboard is an outright lie. Even at 16,000 coins you don't reach 102%.But the UP TO is in front of that number. Maybe they are "set to hit" at that mark. Will be interesting to see. Why don't they just say, up to 200% payback? Royal up to one million coins? It could get there. Theorectically that is if no one hits for a very long time and people keep playing it. Not likely, but it could happen.
>
> May as well play megabucks. At least then when you hit it, you win something worthwhile.
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rob.singer1111" <rob.singer1111@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure lots of opinions and comments have been made about these interestingly different machines. I've sat and played at the 25c SDBP ($1650 RF) version for 45 minutes as a test (quitting with a meaningless profit when four J's were hit), I've gone over all the numbers, and I have my own view of what these new machines mean to the casino and the player.
> >
> > As has been said, anyone who plays the lousy paytables when the royals are small is at a serious disadvantage, and some WILL play them at low royal levels. But since every credit bet on SDBP (or whatever game) contributes the exact same .5% to all 8 royals, the theory is the "experts" will only play the >100% games when they go that high, and in doing so, in conjunction with the unskilled players going at the lesser valued royals, they'll raise the royals on the other 7 or so games to "playable levels", thereby always having something positive to go after.
> >
> > BTW the signs around the casino aren't true. "Up to 102.5%", if the machines are fair, is wrong. If the royals aren't hit by the time the games reach a theoretical 102.5%, obviously it goes higher. Unless I'm missing something. Am I?
> >
> > It is very clear these machines will be just another money-maker for the casino and are a bad deal for the player. The optimal royal flush strategies for progressives of this type are a constantly moving target, and no expert, including yours truly, is capable of learning and then applying absolute expert strategy on so many different games on an as-required basis. As a result, even the best of players will continue to play at a sub 100% level no matter how high the royals go.
> >
> > At the end of the day these machines simply become nothing more than a pot shot for players seeking the thrill of hitting large 25c/50c/$1 royals. I was surprised that when I was playing them last Saturday night around 9pm, there was only one other person playing. You can tell the meters run much faster than anything we've seen in years. But when people stopped by to look the games over they didn't really care what the royals were. All they commented on were the poor pay tables.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

#8

The only slightly interesting comment I have to add to this discussion is it
is undoubtedly better for the casino to place games like this that for the
casino pay out a constant rate (not sure exact numbers regarding how much
goes toward progressive etc). But a game that pays out like FP JoB with
99.5% with no progressive makes the casino .5% minus comps/freebies etc,
however in a case like this when you put a progressive in on a machine that
would usually pay 98.5% put you put .5% of the play into the progressive it
creates a profit of 1% for the casino minus freebies/comps, yet it does
create the opportunity for players who have the option of only playing when
return with progressive is high a chance to play at >100% theoretically. I
guess my point is the fact that you get to play at a rate of 101% or
something when the progressive is high doesn't mean the casino is taking a
loss on you playing their machines as the money has been put into the
progressive at a constant rate. I guess in theory it creates the perfect
environment for progressive hunters out there, but hurts the casual players
especially those with limited options when progressives are high.

···

On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 5:52 PM, vp_wiz <harry.porter@verizon.net> wrote:

As much as you rail against this progressive, it seems as if somehow you
deem their presence a personal insult.

You're not wrong about the risk in playing the bank when only modestly
positive. That should be a no-brainer conclusion for anyone with moderate
intelligence. So do what your gut says is right and only play when the
meters represent an attractive opportunity, factoring the risk.

Or, if you really just can't get your head around the math, leave the play
for others and don't sweat it any more than any other game you find
unattractive.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "the7thwarrior" <Judy@...> wrote:
>
> I am NOT thinking EV. I am NOT talking long term, months, years.
>
> I am thinking if you want to lose $20, or $100, as most are doing at
these progressives. May as well spend it at a game where it will be life
changing, rather than a few thousand dollars.
> Your money will last about the same amount of time, IF you don't hit the
jackpot. (A variance of up to 300 vs. Jacks or Better at 19.)
>
> I must admit I am guilty of Royal chasing. But how long are you gonna
play before you hit something? How many thousands are you willing to dump
into the machine to hit it?
>
> With a 100% around $2750 for this machine, that means (without cashback
and club benefits) you are willing to lose a over $2700 to hit that quarter
Royal to make $50.
>
> That is if everything goes as planned. And you get that Royal within the
30 to 50 thousand hands as statistics shows. If you are unlucky and it goes
beyond that, as this progressive has already done, then you lose even when
you hit it.
>
> The progressive goes up about 1/2 of one cent every time someone plays.
So it has risen over $1500. Or if my shaky math is correct been played,
300,000 times. Of course not everyone is playing that game of course. Some
are playing more familiar ones, but even if it is being played only 1/8 the
time, (8 games on the machine) it is still "overdue" for that elusive Royal.
>
> Most of us are not playing for days on end to hit that Royal, but taking
pot shots at it. Someone will sit down with $5 and hit it.
> Like the lottery, someone has to win.
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Cohen <brucedcohen2002@> wrote:
> >
> > This kind of thinking/mathematics makes zero sense to me.
> > Â
> > If you take out the jackpots/royals/4 dueces from ANY
> > game the paytable worsens.
> > Â
> > The casino WILL be paying them off and they ARE
> > part of your EV for sure.
> > Â
> > Saying that playing an over 100% game with less than 5%
> > of your Ev being the big jackpots is like Megabucks, an
> > under 50% game with more than 5% of your Ev being
> > on the jackpots doesn't make sense.
> > Â
> > Am I missing something, or does Miss Realtor just
> > not like Frank and Bob?
> >
> > --- On Mon, 5/30/11, the7thwarrior <Judy@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: the7thwarrior <Judy@>
> > Subject: [vpFREE] Re: The New Progressives At The M
> > To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 10:13 AM
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> >
> > As I said at the beginning, these games are for suckers.
> > Royal chasing suckers!
> >
> > No matter what strategy you use, the paytables are set so low, if play
for any length of time, and you don't hit the Royal, you lose. PERIOD!
> >
> > Great Money maker for M. Great publicity creator for M. All bad for the
average player.
> >
> > The progressives are doing their job. Getting people to talk about and
revisit the place. Most will not just walk in and walk out, but drop a few
bucks along the way in OTHER machines. THe billboard is an outright lie.
Even at 16,000 coins you don't reach 102%.But the UP TO is in front of that
number. Maybe they are "set to hit" at that mark. Will be interesting to
see. Why don't they just say, up to 200% payback? Royal up to one million
coins? It could get there. Theorectically that is if no one hits for a very
long time and people keep playing it. Not likely, but it could happen.
> >
> > May as well play megabucks. At least then when you hit it, you win
something worthwhile.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rob.singer1111" <rob.singer1111@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm sure lots of opinions and comments have been made about these
interestingly different machines. I've sat and played at the 25c SDBP ($1650
RF) version for 45 minutes as a test (quitting with a meaningless profit
when four J's were hit), I've gone over all the numbers, and I have my own
view of what these new machines mean to the casino and the player.
> > >
> > > As has been said, anyone who plays the lousy paytables when the
royals are small is at a serious disadvantage, and some WILL play them at
low royal levels. But since every credit bet on SDBP (or whatever game)
contributes the exact same .5% to all 8 royals, the theory is the "experts"
will only play the >100% games when they go that high, and in doing so, in
conjunction with the unskilled players going at the lesser valued royals,
they'll raise the royals on the other 7 or so games to "playable levels",
thereby always having something positive to go after.
> > >
> > > BTW the signs around the casino aren't true. "Up to 102.5%", if the
machines are fair, is wrong. If the royals aren't hit by the time the games
reach a theoretical 102.5%, obviously it goes higher. Unless I'm missing
something. Am I?
> > >
> > > It is very clear these machines will be just another money-maker for
the casino and are a bad deal for the player. The optimal royal flush
strategies for progressives of this type are a constantly moving target, and
no expert, including yours truly, is capable of learning and then applying
absolute expert strategy on so many different games on an as-required basis.
As a result, even the best of players will continue to play at a sub 100%
level no matter how high the royals go.
> > >
> > > At the end of the day these machines simply become nothing more than
a pot shot for players seeking the thrill of hitting large 25c/50c/$1
royals. I was surprised that when I was playing them last Saturday night
around 9pm, there was only one other person playing. You can tell the meters
run much faster than anything we've seen in years. But when people stopped
by to look the games over they didn't really care what the royals were. All
they commented on were the poor pay tables.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

Someone mentioned that there was one on the MGM Website but I can't seem to find it. And I don't remember just what it calculated - worth of slot club points or maybe holiday gift points? Anyone able to help me out with this, especially an URL?

···

________________
Jean $�ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

#10

The Joker Poker progressives were seeded higher than the other games. And how many people know expert JP strategy, let alone the changes needed to theoretically be playing the thing correctly anyway?

These so-called "teams" have too many seats to fill to guarantee they'll hit it and even if they do, with all the seats and the lousy paytables they'll more than likely pound themselves into oblivion instead.

They ought to change those misleading billboards to "Pot Shot Heaven".

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mike" <melbedewy1226@...> wrote:

Since the Joker Poker is now at 102% plus freebies I wonder why these much heralded "teams" aren't banging away at all 20 machines 24/7?
LOL.

#11

My point egg-zactly.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rob.singer1111" <rob.singer1111@...> wrote:

These so-called "teams" have too many seats to fill to guarantee they'll hit it and even if they do, with all the seats and the lousy paytables they'll more than likely pound themselves into oblivion instead.

#12

After you sign into your Mlife account, it comes up when you click on your Holiday Gift Shoppe point balance.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

Someone mentioned that there was one on the MGM Website but I can't seem to
find it. And I don't remember just what it calculated - worth of slot club
points or maybe holiday gift points? Anyone able to help me out with this,
especially an URL?

#13

Mlife.com

Roberta Krull

···

Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless

-----Original message-----
From: Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, May 30, 2011 22:59:56 GMT+00:00
Subject: [vpFREE] Mlife Slot Club Calculator

Someone mentioned that there was one on the MGM Website but I can't seem to
find it. And I don't remember just what it calculated - worth of slot club
points or maybe holiday gift points? Anyone able to help me out with this,
especially an URL?
________________
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#14

The IRS put the teams out of business. It's in Frank's book.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mike" <melbedewy1226@...> wrote:

Since the Joker Poker is now at 102% plus freebies I wonder why these much heralded "teams" aren't banging away at all 20 machines 24/7?
LOL.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "the7thwarrior" <Judy@> wrote:
>
> I am NOT thinking EV. I am NOT talking long term, months, years.
>
> I am thinking if you want to lose $20, or $100, as most are doing at these progressives. May as well spend it at a game where it will be life changing, rather than a few thousand dollars.
> Your money will last about the same amount of time, IF you don't hit the jackpot. (A variance of up to 300 vs. Jacks or Better at 19.)
>
> I must admit I am guilty of Royal chasing. But how long are you gonna play before you hit something? How many thousands are you willing to dump into the machine to hit it?
>
> With a 100% around $2750 for this machine, that means (without cashback and club benefits) you are willing to lose a over $2700 to hit that quarter Royal to make $50.
>
> That is if everything goes as planned. And you get that Royal within the 30 to 50 thousand hands as statistics shows. If you are unlucky and it goes beyond that, as this progressive has already done, then you lose even when you hit it.
>
> The progressive goes up about 1/2 of one cent every time someone plays. So it has risen over $1500. Or if my shaky math is correct been played, 300,000 times. Of course not everyone is playing that game of course. Some are playing more familiar ones, but even if it is being played only 1/8 the time, (8 games on the machine) it is still "overdue" for that elusive Royal.
>
> Most of us are not playing for days on end to hit that Royal, but taking pot shots at it. Someone will sit down with $5 and hit it.
> Like the lottery, someone has to win.
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Cohen <brucedcohen2002@> wrote:
> >
> > This kind of thinking/mathematics makes zero sense to me.
> > Â
> > If you take out the jackpots/royals/4 dueces from ANY
> > game the paytable worsens.
> > Â
> > The casino WILL be paying them off and they ARE
> > part of your EV for sure.
> > Â
> > Saying that playing an over 100% game with less than 5%
> > of your Ev being the big jackpots is like Megabucks, an
> > under 50% game with more than 5% of your Ev being
> > on the jackpots doesn't make sense.
> > Â
> > Am I missing something, or does Miss Realtor just
> > not like Frank and Bob?
> >
> > --- On Mon, 5/30/11, the7thwarrior <Judy@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: the7thwarrior <Judy@>
> > Subject: [vpFREE] Re: The New Progressives At The M
> > To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 10:13 AM
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> >
> > As I said at the beginning, these games are for suckers.
> > Royal chasing suckers!
> >
> > No matter what strategy you use, the paytables are set so low, if play for any length of time, and you don't hit the Royal, you lose. PERIOD!
> >
> > Great Money maker for M. Great publicity creator for M. All bad for the average player.
> >
> > The progressives are doing their job. Getting people to talk about and revisit the place. Most will not just walk in and walk out, but drop a few bucks along the way in OTHER machines. THe billboard is an outright lie. Even at 16,000 coins you don't reach 102%.But the UP TO is in front of that number. Maybe they are "set to hit" at that mark. Will be interesting to see. Why don't they just say, up to 200% payback? Royal up to one million coins? It could get there. Theorectically that is if no one hits for a very long time and people keep playing it. Not likely, but it could happen.
> >
> > May as well play megabucks. At least then when you hit it, you win something worthwhile.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rob.singer1111" <rob.singer1111@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm sure lots of opinions and comments have been made about these interestingly different machines. I've sat and played at the 25c SDBP ($1650 RF) version for 45 minutes as a test (quitting with a meaningless profit when four J's were hit), I've gone over all the numbers, and I have my own view of what these new machines mean to the casino and the player.
> > >
> > > As has been said, anyone who plays the lousy paytables when the royals are small is at a serious disadvantage, and some WILL play them at low royal levels. But since every credit bet on SDBP (or whatever game) contributes the exact same .5% to all 8 royals, the theory is the "experts" will only play the >100% games when they go that high, and in doing so, in conjunction with the unskilled players going at the lesser valued royals, they'll raise the royals on the other 7 or so games to "playable levels", thereby always having something positive to go after.
> > >
> > > BTW the signs around the casino aren't true. "Up to 102.5%", if the machines are fair, is wrong. If the royals aren't hit by the time the games reach a theoretical 102.5%, obviously it goes higher. Unless I'm missing something. Am I?
> > >
> > > It is very clear these machines will be just another money-maker for the casino and are a bad deal for the player. The optimal royal flush strategies for progressives of this type are a constantly moving target, and no expert, including yours truly, is capable of learning and then applying absolute expert strategy on so many different games on an as-required basis. As a result, even the best of players will continue to play at a sub 100% level no matter how high the royals go.
> > >
> > > At the end of the day these machines simply become nothing more than a pot shot for players seeking the thrill of hitting large 25c/50c/$1 royals. I was surprised that when I was playing them last Saturday night around 9pm, there was only one other person playing. You can tell the meters run much faster than anything we've seen in years. But when people stopped by to look the games over they didn't really care what the royals were. All they commented on were the poor pay tables.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

#15

<<After you sign into your Mlife account, it comes up when you click on your Holiday Gift Shoppe point balance.>>

Thanx so much!

···

________________
Jean $�ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

#16

They picked 102.5% because they thought that was as high as it would get. This was based on everyone always playing the highest meter. As it turns out a lot of people are playing the lower games, which is making the highest meters even higher than expected. About seven royals have now been hit on the bank. I was there when someone hit one tonight for $2,300.

I just left the Joker at 103.55% return. So you are right they lied. They understated it's potential significantly.

You seem to be convinced casinos are trying to trick you to such a degree that you are incapable of recognizing something good when it comes along.

Oh, I played 5 hours tonight...didn't hit the Royal and won $70.

I tried to have some of the other math folks on vpFREE explain how this bank works to you, but apparently your math skills are are not up to the task of understanding.

I feel bad about this, but I don't know how to explain something to you if you aren't capable of comprehending the answer.

Your comments about people who chase Royals being suckers are really embarrassing, and I don't mean to me. These are massively high Royals. You could get half as many as expected and still break even. Not to mention, I managed a team that did nothing but play for high Royals and did ridiculously well. Oh and we were only one of six teams all playing for high royals and all making tons of money.

Playing high progressives is one of the best edges you can get in a casino. The fact that you don't seem to understand this is alarming.

I'm only saying these things because I care and would like to help.

~FK

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "the7thwarrior" <Judy@...> wrote:

As I said at the beginning, these games are for suckers.
Royal chasing suckers!

No matter what strategy you use, the paytables are set so low, if play for any length of time, and you don't hit the Royal, you lose. PERIOD!

Great Money maker for M. Great publicity creator for M. All bad for the average player.

The progressives are doing their job. Getting people to talk about and revisit the place. Most will not just walk in and walk out, but drop a few bucks along the way in OTHER machines. THe billboard is an outright lie. Even at 16,000 coins you don't reach 102%.But the UP TO is in front of that number. Maybe they are "set to hit" at that mark. Will be interesting to see. Why don't they just say, up to 200% payback? Royal up to one million coins? It could get there. Theorectically that is if no one hits for a very long time and people keep playing it. Not likely, but it could happen.

May as well play megabucks. At least then when you hit it, you win something worthwhile.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rob.singer1111" <rob.singer1111@> wrote:
>
> I'm sure lots of opinions and comments have been made about these interestingly different machines. I've sat and played at the 25c SDBP ($1650 RF) version for 45 minutes as a test (quitting with a meaningless profit when four J's were hit), I've gone over all the numbers, and I have my own view of what these new machines mean to the casino and the player.
>
> As has been said, anyone who plays the lousy paytables when the royals are small is at a serious disadvantage, and some WILL play them at low royal levels. But since every credit bet on SDBP (or whatever game) contributes the exact same .5% to all 8 royals, the theory is the "experts" will only play the >100% games when they go that high, and in doing so, in conjunction with the unskilled players going at the lesser valued royals, they'll raise the royals on the other 7 or so games to "playable levels", thereby always having something positive to go after.
>
> BTW the signs around the casino aren't true. "Up to 102.5%", if the machines are fair, is wrong. If the royals aren't hit by the time the games reach a theoretical 102.5%, obviously it goes higher. Unless I'm missing something. Am I?
>
> It is very clear these machines will be just another money-maker for the casino and are a bad deal for the player. The optimal royal flush strategies for progressives of this type are a constantly moving target, and no expert, including yours truly, is capable of learning and then applying absolute expert strategy on so many different games on an as-required basis. As a result, even the best of players will continue to play at a sub 100% level no matter how high the royals go.
>
> At the end of the day these machines simply become nothing more than a pot shot for players seeking the thrill of hitting large 25c/50c/$1 royals. I was surprised that when I was playing them last Saturday night around 9pm, there was only one other person playing. You can tell the meters run much faster than anything we've seen in years. But when people stopped by to look the games over they didn't really care what the royals were. All they commented on were the poor pay tables.
>

#17

Well right now you would be losing about $2,700 to make $1,500...and at the ridiculous speed these machines are capable of that is somewhere around $50 an hour.

Look--just don't play them if you don't want to. But stop confusing people with faulty math when you clearly don't know how to determine the return of progressives.

If as you say you aren't going to play them, why do you keep posting about them? It's very odd!

It's like you don't want to play them, but that's not good enough for you, you don't want anyone else to play them either. That is not a healthy attitude and somewhat indicative of "issues". I'd do some serious soul searching and introspection on this. You are simply too bugged about something that doesn't effect you unless you let it.

People that know progressive math will be playing them, myself included. Playing high progressives is what I've been doing for a living for 23 years.

If you'd like me to take another crack at explaining progressives to you I'll try. But after reading all your posts I'm not sure it will do any good. I will try though, if you want me to. If I only shared my knowledge with people that agreed with me, it wouldn't do much good would it?

Be well...and try not to let this get to you so much. I'm worried about you.

~FK

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "the7thwarrior" <Judy@...> wrote:

I am NOT thinking EV. I am NOT talking long term, months, years.

I am thinking if you want to lose $20, or $100, as most are doing at these progressives. May as well spend it at a game where it will be life changing, rather than a few thousand dollars.
Your money will last about the same amount of time, IF you don't hit the jackpot. (A variance of up to 300 vs. Jacks or Better at 19.)

I must admit I am guilty of Royal chasing. But how long are you gonna play before you hit something? How many thousands are you willing to dump into the machine to hit it?

With a 100% around $2750 for this machine, that means (without cashback and club benefits) you are willing to lose a over $2700 to hit that quarter Royal to make $50.

That is if everything goes as planned. And you get that Royal within the 30 to 50 thousand hands as statistics shows. If you are unlucky and it goes beyond that, as this progressive has already done, then you lose even when you hit it.

The progressive goes up about 1/2 of one cent every time someone plays. So it has risen over $1500. Or if my shaky math is correct been played, 300,000 times. Of course not everyone is playing that game of course. Some are playing more familiar ones, but even if it is being played only 1/8 the time, (8 games on the machine) it is still "overdue" for that elusive Royal.

Most of us are not playing for days on end to hit that Royal, but taking pot shots at it. Someone will sit down with $5 and hit it.
Like the lottery, someone has to win.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Cohen <brucedcohen2002@> wrote:
>
> This kind of thinking/mathematics makes zero sense to me.
> Â
> If you take out the jackpots/royals/4 dueces from ANY
> game the paytable worsens.
> Â
> The casino WILL be paying them off and they ARE
> part of your EV for sure.
> Â
> Saying that playing an over 100% game with less than 5%
> of your Ev being the big jackpots is like Megabucks, an
> under 50% game with more than 5% of your Ev being
> on the jackpots doesn't make sense.
> Â
> Am I missing something, or does Miss Realtor just
> not like Frank and Bob?
>
> --- On Mon, 5/30/11, the7thwarrior <Judy@> wrote:
>
>
> From: the7thwarrior <Judy@>
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: The New Progressives At The M
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 10:13 AM
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> As I said at the beginning, these games are for suckers.
> Royal chasing suckers!
>
> No matter what strategy you use, the paytables are set so low, if play for any length of time, and you don't hit the Royal, you lose. PERIOD!
>
> Great Money maker for M. Great publicity creator for M. All bad for the average player.
>
> The progressives are doing their job. Getting people to talk about and revisit the place. Most will not just walk in and walk out, but drop a few bucks along the way in OTHER machines. THe billboard is an outright lie. Even at 16,000 coins you don't reach 102%.But the UP TO is in front of that number. Maybe they are "set to hit" at that mark. Will be interesting to see. Why don't they just say, up to 200% payback? Royal up to one million coins? It could get there. Theorectically that is if no one hits for a very long time and people keep playing it. Not likely, but it could happen.
>
> May as well play megabucks. At least then when you hit it, you win something worthwhile.
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rob.singer1111" <rob.singer1111@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure lots of opinions and comments have been made about these interestingly different machines. I've sat and played at the 25c SDBP ($1650 RF) version for 45 minutes as a test (quitting with a meaningless profit when four J's were hit), I've gone over all the numbers, and I have my own view of what these new machines mean to the casino and the player.
> >
> > As has been said, anyone who plays the lousy paytables when the royals are small is at a serious disadvantage, and some WILL play them at low royal levels. But since every credit bet on SDBP (or whatever game) contributes the exact same .5% to all 8 royals, the theory is the "experts" will only play the >100% games when they go that high, and in doing so, in conjunction with the unskilled players going at the lesser valued royals, they'll raise the royals on the other 7 or so games to "playable levels", thereby always having something positive to go after.
> >
> > BTW the signs around the casino aren't true. "Up to 102.5%", if the machines are fair, is wrong. If the royals aren't hit by the time the games reach a theoretical 102.5%, obviously it goes higher. Unless I'm missing something. Am I?
> >
> > It is very clear these machines will be just another money-maker for the casino and are a bad deal for the player. The optimal royal flush strategies for progressives of this type are a constantly moving target, and no expert, including yours truly, is capable of learning and then applying absolute expert strategy on so many different games on an as-required basis. As a result, even the best of players will continue to play at a sub 100% level no matter how high the royals go.
> >
> > At the end of the day these machines simply become nothing more than a pot shot for players seeking the thrill of hitting large 25c/50c/$1 royals. I was surprised that when I was playing them last Saturday night around 9pm, there was only one other person playing. You can tell the meters run much faster than anything we've seen in years. But when people stopped by to look the games over they didn't really care what the royals were. All they commented on were the poor pay tables.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

#18

There are no more teams since the late 90's. IRS pressure put them out of business. Those of us that went independent are banging away as much as we can, I was away for the weekend sword fighting in California, but play 5 hours tonight.

Also, many of the ex-team people don't play quarters. Not worth their time. If the dollar was up that would be another story.

My three day absence has left too many posts to reply to. I need to get to sleep so I can be back at the M in the morning. See ya all there.

Oh bring a SDB strategy for when the Joker falls.

~FK

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mike" <melbedewy1226@...> wrote:

Since the Joker Poker is now at 102% plus freebies I wonder why these much heralded "teams" aren't banging away at all 20 machines 24/7?
LOL.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "the7thwarrior" <Judy@> wrote:
>
> I am NOT thinking EV. I am NOT talking long term, months, years.
>
> I am thinking if you want to lose $20, or $100, as most are doing at these progressives. May as well spend it at a game where it will be life changing, rather than a few thousand dollars.
> Your money will last about the same amount of time, IF you don't hit the jackpot. (A variance of up to 300 vs. Jacks or Better at 19.)
>
> I must admit I am guilty of Royal chasing. But how long are you gonna play before you hit something? How many thousands are you willing to dump into the machine to hit it?
>
> With a 100% around $2750 for this machine, that means (without cashback and club benefits) you are willing to lose a over $2700 to hit that quarter Royal to make $50.
>
> That is if everything goes as planned. And you get that Royal within the 30 to 50 thousand hands as statistics shows. If you are unlucky and it goes beyond that, as this progressive has already done, then you lose even when you hit it.
>
> The progressive goes up about 1/2 of one cent every time someone plays. So it has risen over $1500. Or if my shaky math is correct been played, 300,000 times. Of course not everyone is playing that game of course. Some are playing more familiar ones, but even if it is being played only 1/8 the time, (8 games on the machine) it is still "overdue" for that elusive Royal.
>
> Most of us are not playing for days on end to hit that Royal, but taking pot shots at it. Someone will sit down with $5 and hit it.
> Like the lottery, someone has to win.
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Cohen <brucedcohen2002@> wrote:
> >
> > This kind of thinking/mathematics makes zero sense to me.
> > Â
> > If you take out the jackpots/royals/4 dueces from ANY
> > game the paytable worsens.
> > Â
> > The casino WILL be paying them off and they ARE
> > part of your EV for sure.
> > Â
> > Saying that playing an over 100% game with less than 5%
> > of your Ev being the big jackpots is like Megabucks, an
> > under 50% game with more than 5% of your Ev being
> > on the jackpots doesn't make sense.
> > Â
> > Am I missing something, or does Miss Realtor just
> > not like Frank and Bob?
> >
> > --- On Mon, 5/30/11, the7thwarrior <Judy@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: the7thwarrior <Judy@>
> > Subject: [vpFREE] Re: The New Progressives At The M
> > To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 10:13 AM
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> >
> > As I said at the beginning, these games are for suckers.
> > Royal chasing suckers!
> >
> > No matter what strategy you use, the paytables are set so low, if play for any length of time, and you don't hit the Royal, you lose. PERIOD!
> >
> > Great Money maker for M. Great publicity creator for M. All bad for the average player.
> >
> > The progressives are doing their job. Getting people to talk about and revisit the place. Most will not just walk in and walk out, but drop a few bucks along the way in OTHER machines. THe billboard is an outright lie. Even at 16,000 coins you don't reach 102%.But the UP TO is in front of that number. Maybe they are "set to hit" at that mark. Will be interesting to see. Why don't they just say, up to 200% payback? Royal up to one million coins? It could get there. Theorectically that is if no one hits for a very long time and people keep playing it. Not likely, but it could happen.
> >
> > May as well play megabucks. At least then when you hit it, you win something worthwhile.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rob.singer1111" <rob.singer1111@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm sure lots of opinions and comments have been made about these interestingly different machines. I've sat and played at the 25c SDBP ($1650 RF) version for 45 minutes as a test (quitting with a meaningless profit when four J's were hit), I've gone over all the numbers, and I have my own view of what these new machines mean to the casino and the player.
> > >
> > > As has been said, anyone who plays the lousy paytables when the royals are small is at a serious disadvantage, and some WILL play them at low royal levels. But since every credit bet on SDBP (or whatever game) contributes the exact same .5% to all 8 royals, the theory is the "experts" will only play the >100% games when they go that high, and in doing so, in conjunction with the unskilled players going at the lesser valued royals, they'll raise the royals on the other 7 or so games to "playable levels", thereby always having something positive to go after.
> > >
> > > BTW the signs around the casino aren't true. "Up to 102.5%", if the machines are fair, is wrong. If the royals aren't hit by the time the games reach a theoretical 102.5%, obviously it goes higher. Unless I'm missing something. Am I?
> > >
> > > It is very clear these machines will be just another money-maker for the casino and are a bad deal for the player. The optimal royal flush strategies for progressives of this type are a constantly moving target, and no expert, including yours truly, is capable of learning and then applying absolute expert strategy on so many different games on an as-required basis. As a result, even the best of players will continue to play at a sub 100% level no matter how high the royals go.
> > >
> > > At the end of the day these machines simply become nothing more than a pot shot for players seeking the thrill of hitting large 25c/50c/$1 royals. I was surprised that when I was playing them last Saturday night around 9pm, there was only one other person playing. You can tell the meters run much faster than anything we've seen in years. But when people stopped by to look the games over they didn't really care what the royals were. All they commented on were the poor pay tables.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

#19

Love the sword-fighting! :slight_smile:

I seem to remember a chap named Elliott Shapiro, who told me in the early to mid-2000's in person that his job was playing on teams that almost exclusively chased progressives. I believe another named Tom Robertson led one of those teams.

Could you please explain how the IRS had anything to do with putting teams (at least the ones you're familiar with) out of business? From what I know about how they operate that's somewhat out of their circle of responsibility. Or did you mean that the confusion and complications from how individual players reported their income (or didn't report income) just caused too much trouble for it to be worth doing any more?

Thank you.

···

From: Frank <frank@progressivevp.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 1:53 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: The New Progressives At The M

There are no more teams since the late 90's. IRS pressure put them out of business. Those of us that went independent are banging away as much as we can, I was away for the weekend sword fighting in California, but play 5 hours tonight.

Also, many of the ex-team people don't play quarters. Not worth their time. If the dollar was up that would be another story.

My three day absence has left too many posts to reply to. I need to get to sleep so I can be back at the M in the morning. See ya all there.

Oh bring a SDB strategy for when the Joker falls.

~FK

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#20

$20/hour doesn't go far these days.

cheers,

five

···

mike <melbedewy1226@hotmail.com> wrote:

Since the Joker Poker is now at 102% plus freebies I wonder why these much heralded "teams" aren't banging away at all 20 machines 24/7?
LOL.