vpFREE2 Forums

Taxing Question

#1

<<<<<<Since you are filing, as most taxpayers, as a cash basis taxpayer
the key is
when you receive (or "constructively receive") the cash - this is the
year
in which it should be reported. This is the year that it was available
to
you for withdrawal. You cannot manipulate the cash back to be in another
year, simply because you choose to withdraw it at a later date.

I don't think you are correct on this. Coast Resort casinos will issue a
W-2G to any player who collects $1200 or more in cashback at one time
(probably a single day). I have done this on more than one occasion and
the W-2G is issued for the day you collect the cashback, not numerous
W-2g's for the various years when the cashback was earned. If the IRS
tried to claim otherwise I would wave my W-2g's all the way to the gray
bar hotel. I don't know of any slot club account that records cashback
DOLLARS they all contain POINTS which may be converted to money at the
members choosing. I could be wrong but this will probably result in a
lecture on CASH EQUIVALENTS.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:44:58 -0500 "Judy Slatin" <j.slatin@verizon.net> writes:

#2

John,

Yes, cash basis taxpayers record cash back when it is received, not earned.
This also includes "constructive receipt" of cash. But, many times, as a
practical matter, even though you may have received cash back in your
account and you withdraw it in the next year, and you do this on a
consistent basis from year to year, as long as there is no intention of tax
avoidance, this would be permitted by the IRS. Otherwise you could have an
accounting nightmare. What you cannot do is manipulate cash back into a
particular year so as to be construed as tax avoidance. For example, if
each year you were recording the Dec cash back in Dec and then one year you
decide to push it off until Jan to be included in the next year, this could
be construed as tax avoidance.

Judy

···

-----Original Message-----
From: johnfiske@juno.com [mailto:johnfi…@…com]
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 4:37 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Taxing Question

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:44:58 -0500 "Judy Slatin" <j.slatin@verizon.net> writes:
<<<<<<Since you are filing, as most taxpayers, as a cash basis taxpayer
the key is
when you receive (or "constructively receive") the cash - this is the
year
in which it should be reported. This is the year that it was available
to
you for withdrawal. You cannot manipulate the cash back to be in another
year, simply because you choose to withdraw it at a later date.

I don't think you are correct on this. Coast Resort casinos will issue a
W-2G to any player who collects $1200 or more in cashback at one time
(probably a single day). I have done this on more than one occasion and
the W-2G is issued for the day you collect the cashback, not numerous
W-2g's for the various years when the cashback was earned. If the IRS
tried to claim otherwise I would wave my W-2g's all the way to the gray
bar hotel. I don't know of any slot club account that records cashback
DOLLARS they all contain POINTS which may be converted to money at the
members choosing. I could be wrong but this will probably result in a
lecture on CASH EQUIVALENTS.

#3

Casinos can and do change their cash back system and close accounts on
people and do not allow them their cash back. It is not a bank account.
There is no money until you actually take it out. Many slot clubs give you
either cash or comps for your points. It is ridiculous to declare points in
a slot club account as income until you actually redeem something.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Slatin [mailto:j.sla…@…net]
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 8:37 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Taxing Question

John,

Yes, cash basis taxpayers record cash back when it is received, not earned.
This also includes "constructive receipt" of cash. But, many times, as a
practical matter, even though you may have received cash back in your
account and you withdraw it in the next year, and you do this on a
consistent basis from year to year, as long as there is no intention of tax
avoidance, this would be permitted by the IRS. Otherwise you could have an
accounting nightmare. What you cannot do is manipulate cash back into a
particular year so as to be construed as tax avoidance. For example, if
each year you were recording the Dec cash back in Dec and then one year you
decide to push it off until Jan to be included in the next year, this could
be construed as tax avoidance.

Judy

-----Original Message-----
From: johnfiske@juno.com [mailto:johnfi…@…com]
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 4:37 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Taxing Question

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:44:58 -0500 "Judy Slatin" <j.slatin@verizon.net> writes:
<<<<<<Since you are filing, as most taxpayers, as a cash basis taxpayer
the key is
when you receive (or "constructively receive") the cash - this is the
year
in which it should be reported. This is the year that it was available
to
you for withdrawal. You cannot manipulate the cash back to be in another
year, simply because you choose to withdraw it at a later date.

I don't think you are correct on this. Coast Resort casinos will issue a
W-2G to any player who collects $1200 or more in cashback at one time
(probably a single day). I have done this on more than one occasion and
the W-2G is issued for the day you collect the cashback, not numerous
W-2g's for the various years when the cashback was earned. If the IRS
tried to claim otherwise I would wave my W-2g's all the way to the gray
bar hotel. I don't know of any slot club account that records cashback
DOLLARS they all contain POINTS which may be converted to money at the
members choosing. I could be wrong but this will probably result in a
lecture on CASH EQUIVALENTS.

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#4

Casino greed strikes once again. Friday morning I stopped by ACE on Boulder
to pick up my daily $50.00 and noticed that the one and only positive bank
that they had left in the place was out of service. Grabbed a floor person,
who grabbed a tech, and we found out that during graveyard Thurs. night,
they changed something, he didn't know what. I asked when they would be put
back on the system and he said around 1-2 that afternoon. It was 10 a.m. and
I did not want to hang around but since my wife and I were both a little
short of the 20K for this week's $500 paycheck, we stopped back in at 5:30
this morning and sure enough, deuces, DB, jokers, everything was short pay
on this bank. We were force to go finish our weekly 20K on the NSUD's by the
north corner johns, but no bankroll damage was done as we both caught the
ducks to finish our tenure at Charlie's East. Another good play bites the
dust. I just love it when the casinos get out of the gamblin' business and
into the "we always win, you lose" business.
                       Nudge

#5

Even when barred, the player is entitled to the cash (not the comps)
and they may NOT refuse to empty the account to the player. They may
deny future cash but past "earnings" belong to you, even if barred.

···

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:22:34 -0800, you wrote:

Casinos can and do change their cash back system and close accounts on
people and do not allow them their cash back. It is not a bank account.
There is no money until you actually take it out. Many slot clubs give you
either cash or comps for your points. It is ridiculous to declare points in
a slot club account as income until you actually redeem something.

-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Slatin [mailto:j.sla…@…net]
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 8:37 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Taxing Question

John,

Yes, cash basis taxpayers record cash back when it is received, not earned.
This also includes "constructive receipt" of cash. But, many times, as a
practical matter, even though you may have received cash back in your
account and you withdraw it in the next year, and you do this on a
consistent basis from year to year, as long as there is no intention of tax
avoidance, this would be permitted by the IRS. Otherwise you could have an
accounting nightmare. What you cannot do is manipulate cash back into a
particular year so as to be construed as tax avoidance. For example, if
each year you were recording the Dec cash back in Dec and then one year you
decide to push it off until Jan to be included in the next year, this could
be construed as tax avoidance.

Judy

-----Original Message-----
From: johnfiske@juno.com [mailto:johnfi…@…com]
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 4:37 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Taxing Question

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:44:58 -0500 "Judy Slatin" <j.slatin@verizon.net> >writes:
<<<<<<Since you are filing, as most taxpayers, as a cash basis taxpayer
the key is
when you receive (or "constructively receive") the cash - this is the
year
in which it should be reported. This is the year that it was available
to
you for withdrawal. You cannot manipulate the cash back to be in another
year, simply because you choose to withdraw it at a later date.

I don't think you are correct on this. Coast Resort casinos will issue a
W-2G to any player who collects $1200 or more in cashback at one time
(probably a single day). I have done this on more than one occasion and
the W-2G is issued for the day you collect the cashback, not numerous
W-2g's for the various years when the cashback was earned. If the IRS
tried to claim otherwise I would wave my W-2g's all the way to the gray
bar hotel. I don't know of any slot club account that records cashback
DOLLARS they all contain POINTS which may be converted to money at the
members choosing. I could be wrong but this will probably result in a
lecture on CASH EQUIVALENTS.

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

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#6

Don't forget the casino GREED of Fiesta and Stations for reducing
multiple point days and for devaluating the points on full pay
machines.

···

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:34:19 -0800, you wrote:

Casino greed strikes once again. Friday morning I stopped by ACE on Boulder
to pick up my daily $50.00 and noticed that the one and only positive bank
that they had left in the place was out of service. Grabbed a floor person,
who grabbed a tech, and we found out that during graveyard Thurs. night,
they changed something, he didn't know what. I asked when they would be put
back on the system and he said around 1-2 that afternoon. It was 10 a.m. and
I did not want to hang around but since my wife and I were both a little
short of the 20K for this week's $500 paycheck, we stopped back in at 5:30
this morning and sure enough, deuces, DB, jokers, everything was short pay
on this bank. We were force to go finish our weekly 20K on the NSUD's by the
north corner johns, but no bankroll damage was done as we both caught the
ducks to finish our tenure at Charlie's East. Another good play bites the
dust. I just love it when the casinos get out of the gamblin' business and
into the "we always win, you lose" business.
                      Nudge

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#7

<<Even when barred, the player is entitled to the cash (not the comps)
and they may NOT refuse to empty the account to the player. They may
deny future cash but past "earnings" belong to you, even if barred.>>

This has been upheld by court rulings, I believe. And this is one of the main reasons why many feel cashback is income and should be reported - and comps and bounce-back are "gifts." Has anyone ever been barred, got bounce-back cash or Free Play which perhaps which was already in the mail before the barring, and was or was not allowed to pick it up?

···

____________________
Jean $cott - "The Frugal Gambler"
MORE FRUGAL GAMBLING can now
be ordered, autographed, at
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz

---
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#8

There has been much crying over the changes that have come or are coming
in some of our favorite casinos.

Personally I also very much regret the fact that casinos are changing
their policies, point valuation, machine schedules, etc. However, I am
not sure "greed" is the right word for this state of affairs. The
casino business has suffered a decline because of 9/11, and the
competition in the business is keener because of the proliferation of
casinos all over the country (and the world).

I believe that if I owned a casino and saw my bottom line suffering, I
would be smart and analyze what I could do to prop it up. If I saw that
a majority of my customers were not savvy gamblers - didn't know a 9/6
schedule from a stock listings in the newspaper - I think I would lower
the schedules and/or change the point system and/or do anything I could
to rectify the problem. The small percentage that would cry were mostly
customers that weren't making me any money anyway.

I think that a lot of the casinos are handling these changes very
awkwardly and causing bad PR, but I really can't blame any business that
wants to make a better profit by cutting out the things that are not
making them any money. If you owned stock in a company, would you not
want the executives to cut out dead wood so your shares would be worth
more and/or your dividends would be higher.

Brad says if we owned a casino, he would bar both of us!!!!!

I am surprised our party has been so lucrative for as long as it has
been. I think casino executives have been VERY slow in catching on!!!

The cat-and-mouse game goes on, however. There are still plenty of
opportunities for the RECREATIONAL gambler, especially for an
out-of-towner. Competition often makes room comps easier to get.

We all will have to work harder - or retire - or get a real job!!!!

···

____________________
Jean $cott - "The Frugal Gambler"
MORE FRUGAL GAMBLING can now
be ordered, autographed, at
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 12/5/2003

#9

Many accounts expire after a certain amount of inactivity and then you are
not entitled to any benefits including cash.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: elliotts@joimail.com [mailto:ellio…@…com]
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 7:46 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Taxing Question

Even when barred, the player is entitled to the cash (not the comps)
and they may NOT refuse to empty the account to the player. They may
deny future cash but past "earnings" belong to you, even if barred.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:22:34 -0800, you wrote:

Casinos can and do change their cash back system and close accounts on
people and do not allow them their cash back. It is not a bank account.
There is no money until you actually take it out. Many slot clubs give you
either cash or comps for your points. It is ridiculous to declare points in
a slot club account as income until you actually redeem something.

-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Slatin [mailto:j.sla…@…net]
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 8:37 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Taxing Question

John,

Yes, cash basis taxpayers record cash back when it is received, not earned.
This also includes "constructive receipt" of cash. But, many times, as a
practical matter, even though you may have received cash back in your
account and you withdraw it in the next year, and you do this on a
consistent basis from year to year, as long as there is no intention of tax
avoidance, this would be permitted by the IRS. Otherwise you could have an
accounting nightmare. What you cannot do is manipulate cash back into a
particular year so as to be construed as tax avoidance. For example, if
each year you were recording the Dec cash back in Dec and then one year you
decide to push it off until Jan to be included in the next year, this could
be construed as tax avoidance.

Judy

-----Original Message-----
From: johnfiske@juno.com [mailto:johnfi…@…com]
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 4:37 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Taxing Question

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:44:58 -0500 "Judy Slatin" <j.slatin@verizon.net> >writes:
<<<<<<Since you are filing, as most taxpayers, as a cash basis taxpayer
the key is
when you receive (or "constructively receive") the cash - this is the
year
in which it should be reported. This is the year that it was available
to
you for withdrawal. You cannot manipulate the cash back to be in another
year, simply because you choose to withdraw it at a later date.

I don't think you are correct on this. Coast Resort casinos will issue a
W-2G to any player who collects $1200 or more in cashback at one time
(probably a single day). I have done this on more than one occasion and
the W-2G is issued for the day you collect the cashback, not numerous
W-2g's for the various years when the cashback was earned. If the IRS
tried to claim otherwise I would wave my W-2g's all the way to the gray
bar hotel. I don't know of any slot club account that records cashback
DOLLARS they all contain POINTS which may be converted to money at the
members choosing. I could be wrong but this will probably result in a
lecture on CASH EQUIVALENTS.

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT

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#10

snip

Casino greed strikes once again. Friday morning I stopped by ACE on

Boulder

to pick up my daily $50.00 . . .

snip
>my wife and I were both a little

short of the 20K for this week's $500 paycheck . . .
I just love it when the casinos get out of the gamblin' business and
into the "we always win, you lose" business.
                       Nudge

snip

OK, I love a good FP machine as well as anyone, but I'm a little
uncomfortable with
this characterization of the casino. If I understand you correctly,
you and your wife
play only full pay machines and, in addition to your longterm
winnings from play,
earn $500 a week between you in cash back. Sweet! Your complaint is
that the
_casino_ is "greedy" because they've reduced the profitability of
this play for you.

I don't think casinos have ever been in the "gamblin' business,"
which wouldn't, after
all, be very business-like. It's the non-recreational player who's in
the gambling
business. Yet, by your own report, it's you who are in the "we always
win, you lose"
business. You seem to be saying that the casino is somehow obligated
to offer you
play that's guaranteed to be profitable.

I agree that it's harder and harder to be an "advantage player," but
I don't think the
casinos have any obligation to do anything but earn a profit for
their shareholders.
From the shareholders point of view (quite possibly folks just like
you and me),
there's nothing negative about taking steps to insure profitability.

Just my thoughts . . . Kate

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nudge51" <nudge51@l...> wrote:

#11

I was barred. Was escorted to the cage to collect my cash back and
then told to leave. Comps were forfeited.

···

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 19:50:46 -0800, you wrote:

<<Even when barred, the player is entitled to the cash (not the comps)
and they may NOT refuse to empty the account to the player. They may
deny future cash but past "earnings" belong to you, even if barred.>>

This has been upheld by court rulings, I believe. And this is one of the main reasons why many feel cashback is income and should be reported - and comps and bounce-back are "gifts." Has anyone ever been barred, got bounce-back cash or Free Play which perhaps which was already in the mail before the barring, and was or was not allowed to pick it up?
____________________
Jean $cott - "The Frugal Gambler"
MORE FRUGAL GAMBLING can now
be ordered, autographed, at
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz

---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 12/5/2003

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#12

Az Char East, not only reduced the full pay deuces to Ugly deuces (
Not NSUD--WORSE) but they also reduced 9/6 JOB to 8/5, reduced 8/5
bonus to 7/5, reduced 9/7 db to 9/6/4, etc. This is GREED.
Their attitude is to never give a sucker an even break.

They are NOT obligated to provide full pay machines but they did not
have to reduce everything in sight in order to extract a hugh profit
as opposed to a reasonable one.

···

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 16:56:09 -0000, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nudge51" <nudge51@l...> wrote:
snip

Casino greed strikes once again. Friday morning I stopped by ACE on

Boulder

to pick up my daily $50.00 . . .

snip
>my wife and I were both a little

short of the 20K for this week's $500 paycheck . . .
I just love it when the casinos get out of the gamblin' business and
into the "we always win, you lose" business.
                       Nudge

snip

OK, I love a good FP machine as well as anyone, but I'm a little
uncomfortable with
this characterization of the casino. If I understand you correctly,
you and your wife
play only full pay machines and, in addition to your longterm

winnings from play,
earn $500 a week between you in cash back. Sweet! Your complaint is
that the
_casino_ is "greedy" because they've reduced the profitability of
this play for you.

I don't think casinos have ever been in the "gamblin' business,"
which wouldn't, after
all, be very business-like. It's the non-recreational player who's in
the gambling
business. Yet, by your own report, it's you who are in the "we always
win, you lose"
business. You seem to be saying that the casino is somehow obligated
to offer you
play that's guaranteed to be profitable.

I agree that it's harder and harder to be an "advantage player," but
I don't think the
casinos have any obligation to do anything but earn a profit for
their shareholders.
From the shareholders point of view (quite possibly folks just like
you and me),
there's nothing negative about taking steps to insure profitability.

Just my thoughts . . . Kate

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#13

Personally I also very much regret the fact that casinos are

changing

their policies, point valuation, machine schedules, etc.

If I were a casino owner and didn't want to discourage the more
sophisticated VP players (players who read the pay schedules and
learn the correct playing strategy), I'd install more progressive VP
games. Expert VP players will be inclined to visit casinos on the
chance they will find one or two progressives high enough to warrant
playing. The recreational players will have fun playing them anyway,
and that drives up the progressive jackpots. And the higher the
progressive gets, the more money the casino makes ... sometimes I
wonder if the casino people realize that. It's a win win situation
for everyone! As it is now the expert players are inclined to cut
back or stop playing, and I'm sure the casinos don't like that.

For example, the SunCoast has a quarter 3-play with 3 progressive RF,
and progressive Dealt RF. When the Dealt RF reached about $25,000
all 20 machines were hammered for days on end until someone finally
was dealt a RF, at $70,000. Then most of the players left, except
for the recreational players who are busy right now driving the
progressives back up!

#14

casinos don't want expert players, that really shouldn't be a big
surprise
however, casinos don't always know who the expert players are, and
loose paytables and expert players attract a lot of average players,
and casinos like average players
if expert players lock up a progressive, for example by playing
multiple machines or hiring a team, and the average players can't get
on, then the casino loses money
if you happen to be an expert player, give the average players a
break, they are the ones providing the money, not the casino

> Personally I also very much regret the fact that casinos are
changing
> their policies, point valuation, machine schedules, etc.

If I were a casino owner and didn't want to discourage the more
sophisticated VP players (players who read the pay schedules and
learn the correct playing strategy), I'd install more progressive

VP

games. Expert VP players will be inclined to visit casinos on the
chance they will find one or two progressives high enough to

warrant

playing. The recreational players will have fun playing them

anyway,

and that drives up the progressive jackpots. And the higher the
progressive gets, the more money the casino makes ... sometimes I
wonder if the casino people realize that. It's a win win situation
for everyone! As it is now the expert players are inclined to cut
back or stop playing, and I'm sure the casinos don't like that.

For example, the SunCoast has a quarter 3-play with 3 progressive

RF,

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:

and progressive Dealt RF. When the Dealt RF reached about $25,000
all 20 machines were hammered for days on end until someone finally
was dealt a RF, at $70,000. Then most of the players left, except
for the recreational players who are busy right now driving the
progressives back up!

#15

It might turn out that the casino makes more
money from a progressive bank if it is loaded by
multiple expert players. I'm not sure how the factors
all correlate. But as a progressive gets higher and
higher, the expert player will deviate from the standard
4000 coin royal strategy to adjust for the higher progressive.
But the casino is in effect still only paying out the reset
value of the royal, with the extra progressive amount having
already been funded by the players. So the casino makes more
money if the expert starts breaking paying pairs to draw at a
RF3.

Additionally, the "expert" tends to play faster than the
recreational player. So the casino makes more money because
the churn is faster.

This is offset by the fact that the strategy changes will
make the royal get hit slightly faster. And that the expert
will play fast but only until the royal is hit.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "aaquad250" <aaquad250@y...> wrote:

casinos don't want expert players, that really shouldn't be a big
surprise
however, casinos don't always know who the expert players are, and
loose paytables and expert players attract a lot of average players,
and casinos like average players
if expert players lock up a progressive, for example by playing
multiple machines or hiring a team, and the average players can't get
on, then the casino loses money
if you happen to be an expert player, give the average players a
break, they are the ones providing the money, not the casino

#16

It might turn out that the casino makes more
money from a progressive bank if it is loaded by
multiple expert players.

no.

I'm not sure how the factors
all correlate. But as a progressive gets higher and
higher, the expert player will deviate from the standard
4000 coin royal strategy to adjust for the higher progressive.
But the casino is in effect still only paying out the reset
value of the royal, with the extra progressive amount having
already been funded by the players. So the casino makes more
money if the expert starts breaking paying pairs to draw at a
RF3.

the casino is still funding the meter. expert players actually hit
the theoretical game return, which means the casino gets nothing or
even gives some away, average players drop several percent to the
casino due to player errors, that's where the casino makes its money.
Example: nsud progessive with a .5% total meter, this game is
actually .25% in the favor of an expert player, it's even if you
consider strategy adjustment for high jackpot - i.e. the casino makes
no money if the bank is tied up by expert players and this
progressive will eventually be pulled because of that. In addition,
average players eventually get tired of playing at low jackpots if
they perceive that the "pro's" will eventually get all of their money
and prevent them from getting in on the big jackpots.

Additionally, the "expert" tends to play faster than the
recreational player. So the casino makes more money because
the churn is faster.

positive players play fast because the game is in their favor.

This is offset by the fact that the strategy changes will
make the royal get hit slightly faster. And that the expert
will play fast but only until the royal is hit.

yeah, in other words only while the game is positive.

> casinos don't want expert players, that really shouldn't be a big
> surprise
> however, casinos don't always know who the expert players are,

and

> loose paytables and expert players attract a lot of average

players,

> and casinos like average players
> if expert players lock up a progressive, for example by playing
> multiple machines or hiring a team, and the average players can't

get

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jelway_1997" <yahoogroups@m...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "aaquad250" <aaquad250@y...> wrote:
> on, then the casino loses money
> if you happen to be an expert player, give the average players a
> break, they are the ones providing the money, not the casino

#17

I sure don't understand all this talk about casino GREED. Who's to say how
much is more than they deserve? How do we know how much they are making
anyway? It's not like they have any kind of a monopoly here in LV where you
are forced to play any particular place. There is plenty of competition
around town and we as consumers have a right to play where we want. If a
casino puts in all 85% machines and they can make the profit they want then
why shouldn't they? If they are being too greedy then the public will show
them by not spending their money there. If the customers continue to
patronize a place that is sucking in their money then they must be doing
something else right to keep them.

Personally I would only consider it greed if a casino goes under or loses
money because of their paytables. Then you can say "Ya, they got greedy and
it cost them." But if they can put in crappy paytables and still succeed
then it's not greed. It's good management. Only time will tell if Charlie's
East really got greedy or not. Same goes for the Coast properties, which
unfortunately so far, have not had to reverse their bastardizing of their VP
inventory.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: elliotts@joimail.com [mailto:ellio…@…com]
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 9:20 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Charlie's East goes all negative

Az Char East, not only reduced the full pay deuces to Ugly deuces (
Not NSUD--WORSE) but they also reduced 9/6 JOB to 8/5, reduced 8/5
bonus to 7/5, reduced 9/7 db to 9/6/4, etc. This is GREED.
Their attitude is to never give a sucker an even break.

They are NOT obligated to provide full pay machines but they did not
have to reduce everything in sight in order to extract a hugh profit
as opposed to a reasonable one.

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 16:56:09 -0000, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nudge51" <nudge51@l...> wrote:
snip

Casino greed strikes once again. Friday morning I stopped by ACE on

Boulder

to pick up my daily $50.00 . . .

snip
>my wife and I were both a little

short of the 20K for this week's $500 paycheck . . .
I just love it when the casinos get out of the gamblin' business and
into the "we always win, you lose" business.
                       Nudge

snip

OK, I love a good FP machine as well as anyone, but I'm a little
uncomfortable with
this characterization of the casino. If I understand you correctly,
you and your wife
play only full pay machines and, in addition to your longterm

winnings from play,
earn $500 a week between you in cash back. Sweet! Your complaint is
that the
_casino_ is "greedy" because they've reduced the profitability of
this play for you.

I don't think casinos have ever been in the "gamblin' business,"
which wouldn't, after
all, be very business-like. It's the non-recreational player who's in
the gambling
business. Yet, by your own report, it's you who are in the "we always
win, you lose"
business. You seem to be saying that the casino is somehow obligated
to offer you
play that's guaranteed to be profitable.

I agree that it's harder and harder to be an "advantage player," but
I don't think the
casinos have any obligation to do anything but earn a profit for
their shareholders.
From the shareholders point of view (quite possibly folks just like
you and me),
there's nothing negative about taking steps to insure profitability.

Just my thoughts . . . Kate

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#18

When I said the casino makes more money if the progressive gets
high, I was referring to how the casinos fund progressive jackpots.
Lets assume a RF is won, on average, every 40,000 hands. But
suppose, by chance, its won day after day at 10,000 game intervals.
This should upset the casino (although the progressive never got very
high) because too few games were played to fully fund those RF wins.
On the other hand, if 120,000 games are played before the RF is won
(driving the progressive very high) there has been enough play to
fund at least three RF wins, yet the casino only paid one. The
casino should pray for a high progessive every time! Not only will
it attract more players, but it means more money for the casino too.
That is the beauty of a progressive jackpot!!!!

The same thing applies to Megabucks. I'm sure IGT was elated when it
reached $40 million last year. They probably made enough to fund
that jackpot for the next 5 years, with plenty of money left over.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jelway_1997" <yahoogroups@m...> wrote:

It might turn out that the casino makes more
money from a progressive bank if it is loaded by
multiple expert players. I'm not sure how the factors
all correlate.

#19

casinos don't gamble
sure, sometimes the jackpot cycle is longer than average, and
sometimes it's shorter too
as for megabucks, what's the cycle?

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jelway_1997" <yahoogroups@m...>

wrote:

> It might turn out that the casino makes more
> money from a progressive bank if it is loaded by
> multiple expert players. I'm not sure how the factors
> all correlate.

When I said the casino makes more money if the progressive gets
high, I was referring to how the casinos fund progressive

jackpots.

Lets assume a RF is won, on average, every 40,000 hands. But
suppose, by chance, its won day after day at 10,000 game

intervals.

This should upset the casino (although the progressive never got

very

high) because too few games were played to fully fund those RF

wins.

On the other hand, if 120,000 games are played before the RF is won
(driving the progressive very high) there has been enough play to
fund at least three RF wins, yet the casino only paid one. The
casino should pray for a high progessive every time! Not only will
it attract more players, but it means more money for the casino

too.

That is the beauty of a progressive jackpot!!!!

The same thing applies to Megabucks. I'm sure IGT was elated when

it

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:

reached $40 million last year. They probably made enough to fund
that jackpot for the next 5 years, with plenty of money left over.

#20

another comment:

from the casino standpoint, a 9/6 jacks flat top (800royal) is the
same as an 8/5 jacks progressive with 2% meter, except that expert
players aren't gonna bother with the flat top (excluding comps or
coupons) but they will hit the progressive, and that cuts into the
casino take, sometimes pretty significantly.

2% meters are pretty rare these days, largely due to team abuse.

casinos should be barring more players, but instead they usually just
pull machines or promo's

often a casino will have a reasonable play, say 1%, and then they add
a promo which makes it 2%, and the "pros" attack and the casino pulls
both the promo and the former reasonable play leaving nothing
attractive and the casino loses regular customers as well as
potential new customers while some "pros" have made some short term
gains.