Based on the current vpFREE poll, the majority of players consider a
day as a session. Correct me if I'm wrong, but therefore, your
income (the figure reported on line 21) would be the total of all
days that were winning days and your losses (Schedule A) would be
the total of all days that were losing days. My question and point
of discussion, is that it is highly likely that the total of your W2-
G's will exceed your total daily wins reported on line 21. Doesn't
this raise a red flag with Uncle Sam? It has always been my
understanding that one of the IRS's "tests" is that the income (and
deductions) you report matches what they receive from your employer,
bank, etc. Is this different for W2-G's. I'm curious if others
have wrestled with this issue, your outcomes and opinions.
Tax Time
<<Correct me if I'm wrong, but therefore, your
income (the figure reported on line 21) would be the total of all
days that were winning days and your losses (Schedule A) would be
the total of all days that were losing days. My question and point
of discussion, is that it is highly likely that the total of your W2-
G's will exceed your total daily wins reported on line 21. Doesn't
this raise a red flag with Uncle Sam? It has always been my
understanding that one of the IRS's "tests" is that the income (and
deductions) you report matches what they receive from your employer,
bank, etc. Is this different for W2-G's. I'm curious if others
have wrestled with this issue, your outcomes and opinions.>>
Marissa and I discuss this at length in "Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler," available at my Web site below. A day is a "logical" session, but there are those that do it by trip. We do it by day, in one casino. If we change games, like VP to BJ, or change casinos, we put this down as a new session. The IRS if not specific about this at all.
About the W2G's - if that amount is more than your actual session wins, as it often will be, you need to attach a note to your return, listing amount of your W2Gs and stating that they are figured into your win/loss figures.
···
________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards and for the
Frugal series of books.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Just my opnion, attaching any notes, that are not required, is a bad idea. Your calling
attention to something which may generate more interest. This also assumes you
dont file electronically of course.
You are only required to report details of all winnings, including w2g. You may, assuming you
itemize, report losses to the extent of your reported winnings.
···
Jean Scott <QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz> wrote:
<<Correct me if I'm wrong, but therefore, your
income (the figure reported on line 21) would be the total of all
days that were winning days and your losses (Schedule A) would be
the total of all days that were losing days. My question and point
of discussion, is that it is highly likely that the total of your W2-
G's will exceed your total daily wins reported on line 21. Doesn't
this raise a red flag with Uncle Sam? It has always been my
understanding that one of the IRS's "tests" is that the income (and
deductions) you report matches what they receive from your employer,
bank, etc. Is this different for W2-G's. I'm curious if others
have wrestled with this issue, your outcomes and opinions.>>
Marissa and I discuss this at length in "Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler," available at my Web site below. A day is a "logical" session, but there are those that do it by trip. We do it by day, in one casino. If we change games, like VP to BJ, or change casinos, we put this down as a new session. The IRS if not specific about this at all.
About the W2G's - if that amount is more than your actual session wins, as it often will be, you need to attach a note to your return, listing amount of your W2Gs and stating that they are figured into your win/loss figures.
________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards and for the
Frugal series of books.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Just my opnion, attaching any notes, that are not required, is a bad idea.
Your calling
attention to something which may generate more interest. This also assumes
you
dont file electronically of course.
You are only required to report details of all winnings, including w2g. You
may, assuming you
itemize, report losses to the extent of your reported winnings.
Jean is correct in saying you should attach a note to your return. In this
instance, the W2-G total is less than the total winnings entered on pg 1 of
the return. To file a return without the note would send up a red flag.
Thus, next to the line on page one of the return, you should write "see
statement 1," and then include the supporting schedule with the return. If
you do not do this, the return may be kicked out for a "desk audit" because
the W2-G amount is less, and you will get a letter. You will then need to
explain. It is best to avoid this.
Judy
···
-----Original Message-----
From: Nelson Jackson [mailto:nelson8…@…com]
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 12:09 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Tax Time
The two dollar Multi-Games with AA on the lower floor
(used to be next to the bar) were moved to the
entrance of the High Limit area a couple of weeks ago.
This week, they're still there but are shut off. I
hope this was done to convert them to TITO, but who
knows what evil lurks in the heart of Harrah's
management?
There are still 6 $1 AA machines upstairs in the Video
Poker Zone.
carlos
<<If
you do not do this, the return may be kicked out for a "desk audit" because
the W2-G amount is less, and you will get a letter. >>
This almost certainly will happen because it is automatically caught by the computer. It happened to us one time when we forgot to attach that list of W2Gs. When we got the letter audit, we sent in that list and we never heard any more from them.
···
________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards and for the
Frugal series of books.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Todd,
I believe you have this backwards. If you gamble on a regular basis
your daily wins should greatly exceed your total of W-2s. This total
can easily push a middle income person into the AMT zone (alternative
minimum tax). This is a severe penalty for a hobby. I suggest using
the entire year for your session since this is a gray area. You can
post your W-2 total on page 1 and then offset part or all of your
winnings on your Scheduled A. This may not be technically correct,
but it only seems fair to be taxed on your net profit. By using your
W-2 totals on line 21 you will probably avoid any red flags and you
will not need to attach any notes. You can also obtain win/loss
statements from the casinos to support your losses. Another good
reason to use your slot card.
Chris
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "todd_belsan" <tbelsan@a...> wrote:
Based on the current vpFREE poll, the majority of players consider a
day as a session. Correct me if I'm wrong, but therefore, your
income (the figure reported on line 21) would be the total of all
days that were winning days and your losses (Schedule A) would be
the total of all days that were losing days. My question and point
of discussion, is that it is highly likely that the total of your W2-
G's will exceed your total daily wins reported on line 21.
I have long believed Missouri has the toughest gaming commission in the U.S.
Yes, tougher even than Nevada's. Not being a gaming law expert, there's a
good chance I'm speaking out of ignorance. But here's an example of what
I'm talking about: The Ameristar in St. Charles is being fined $200,000
because a computer glitch caused some of their progressive jackpots to rise
at a slower rate then they were supposed to. A link to the story (KC Star)
is below, but here's the gist of it:
a) No customer complained. It was the casino that reported the problem to
the commission after they did an internal audit.
b) The casino does not advertise the rate at which progressive jackpots are
supposed to rise.
c) Customers who hit a jackpot got the amount displayed on their machine.
d) Auditing software is available to catch these mistakes more quickly, but
there is no law in MO that says a casino has to use it.
Yet they are being fined $200,000 anyway in addition to having to add the
"missing" money to future progressive jackpots.
Does anyone know if the Nevada gaming commission ever done anything like
this? Are they this strict (some might say "unreasonable")?
carlos
I have long believed Missouri has the toughest gaming commission
in the U.S.
Yes, tougher even than Nevada's. Not being a gaming law expert,
there's a
good chance I'm speaking out of ignorance. But here's an example
of what
I'm talking about: The Ameristar in St. Charles is being fined
$200,000
because a computer glitch caused some of their progressive
jackpots to rise
at a slower rate then they were supposed to. A link to the story
(KC Star)
is below, but here's the gist of it:
a) No customer complained. It was the casino that reported the
problem to
the commission after they did an internal audit.
b) The casino does not advertise the rate at which progressive
jackpots are
supposed to rise.
c) Customers who hit a jackpot got the amount displayed on their
machine.
d) Auditing software is available to catch these mistakes more
quickly, but
there is no law in MO that says a casino has to use it.
Yet they are being fined $200,000 anyway in addition to having to
add the
"missing" money to future progressive jackpots.
Does anyone know if the Nevada gaming commission ever done
anything like
this? Are they this strict (some might say "unreasonable")?
carlos
First of all you have to realize that this is like you or me being
fined four cents. Ameristar operates money factories (aka riverboat
casinos) across the Midwest. The fine cost Ameristar approximately
eight minutes of operating revenue.
Also, the fine is deductible from corporate income, and they are
probably in the 25% bracket, so it was really a $150,000 fine. Not
to mention the saving in state income tax.
That said, the Missouri Gaming Control people have a history
of "showing the casinos who's boss" from day one, what with the
bizarre and asinine "let's pretend this is a boat" boarding rules,
to the "cruise spending limits" (and the stupid little cards you had
to buy), etc. etc. etc.
The result of this kind of Big-Brother-on-drugs approach to
regulation has driven many existing and potential operators out of
the market, or discouraged them from expanding.
To compare this with Nevada, in our fair state we have a slumbering
lapdog for our casino overseers. The Nevada GCC does not actually
engage in any enforcement activities against the casinos whatsoever.
There is no oversight and no actual regulation. If a casino is
accused of cheating or other misconduct by a third party, then said
third party learns just how zealously his claim will be prosecuted:
not at all. The only thing the NGCC actually DOES is try to prevent
the casinos from skimming, which prevention is only done to appease
the IRS, which everybody in Nevada wants to stay the hell away as
much as possible.
I agree with you that the fine in the Missouri case was absurd. The
thing is, in Missouri as well as Nevada, the effectiveness as well
as the actions of the gaming commissions are motivated by something
drastically different than the urge to protect the player. My guess
is that sometime before this incident, Ameristar had waited just a
bit too long to jump when the MGCC said "frog". This sounds like an
after-the-fact punitive measure to me.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Carlos Lebron" <calebr0n@y...> wrote:
Kevin,
When I early pointed out that you often provide misinformation you exploded
about how everyone is entitled to his or her opinions. That would be true
except you constantly provide "facts" without any basis for them.
I seem to remember you posting an incident that happened years ago where
you complained and were not upheld. Regulators investigate all claims. They
then determine if the complaint was justified or not. Simply because an
investigation does not uphold your position it does not mean that the
system is corrupt. It simply means that you couldn't prove your case.
You are entitled to believe that the system is corrupt and to express that
belief. However, you are not entitled to state that opinion as fact. I have
on numerous occasions asked you to provide specific evidence to back up
your factual misrepresentations. You are never able to do so.
If you are so certain that the entire gaming industry in Nevada is
conspiring against you then perhaps you should not patronize the casinos.
But there are people reading these posts who think that when facts are
posted they are accurate.
For the sake of these people, please stick to opinion in the future or
provide backup for your "facts".
Thank you.
The Nevada GCC does not actually engage in any enforcement activities
against the casinos whatsoever. There is no oversight and no actual
regulation. If a casino is
accused of cheating or other misconduct by a third party, then said
third party learns just how zealously his claim will be prosecuted:
not at all. The only thing the NGCC actually DOES is try to prevent
the casinos from skimming, which prevention is only done to appease
the IRS, which everybody in Nevada wants to stay the hell away as
much as possible.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fines and penalties are generally not allowed as deductions from
income for tax purposes.
"Also, the fine is deductible from corporate income, and they are
probably in the 25% bracket, so it was really a $150,000 fine. Not
to mention the saving in state income tax."
Irv
Hi Bill,
I am not a resident of Nevada, nor do I have any substantiating
evidence, pro or con, as to the efficacy of the Nevada Gaming
Commission. Therefore, I will refrain from participating in that
dialogue.
My question to you, most respectfully, is this; Why do you keep
referring to "Rock", as "Kevin"? I believe I am familiar with the
former controversial poster, whose name was Kevin, since Tom Sims
was kind enough to direct me to his 2003 posts. But I am quite sure
that rockojello333 has stated he is not Kevin. Therefore, I am
puzzled as to why you apparently, believe that he is Kevin. Can you
enlighten me as to how you know this?
Thank you.
Babe
Kevin,
When I early pointed out that you often provide misinformation you
exploded
about how everyone is entitled to his or her opinions. That would
be true
except you constantly provide "facts" without any basis for them.
I seem to remember you posting an incident that happened years ago
where
you complained and were not upheld. Regulators investigate all
claims. They
then determine if the complaint was justified or not. Simply
because an
investigation does not uphold your position it does not mean that
the
system is corrupt. It simply means that you couldn't prove your
case.
You are entitled to believe that the system is corrupt and to
express that
belief. However, you are not entitled to state that opinion as
fact. I have
on numerous occasions asked you to provide specific evidence to
back up
your factual misrepresentations. You are never able to do so.
If you are so certain that the entire gaming industry in Nevada is
conspiring against you then perhaps you should not patronize the
casinos.
But there are people reading these posts who think that when facts
are
posted they are accurate.
For the sake of these people, please stick to opinion in the
future or
provide backup for your "facts".
Thank you.
>The Nevada GCC does not actually engage in any enforcement
activities
>against the casinos whatsoever. There is no oversight and no
actual
>regulation. If a casino is
>accused of cheating or other misconduct by a third party, then
said
>third party learns just how zealously his claim will be
prosecuted:
>not at all. The only thing the NGCC actually DOES is try to
prevent
>the casinos from skimming, which prevention is only done to
appease
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:
>the IRS, which everybody in Nevada wants to stay the hell away as
>much as possible.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kevin,
When I early pointed out that you often provide misinformation you
exploded
about how everyone is entitled to his or her opinions. That would
be true
except you constantly provide "facts" without any basis for them.
I seem to remember you posting an incident that happened years ago
where
you complained and were not upheld. Regulators investigate all
claims. They
then determine if the complaint was justified or not. Simply
because an
investigation does not uphold your position it does not mean that
the
system is corrupt. It simply means that you couldn't prove your
case.
If you are referring to the same incident I think you are, then you
should also recall that I (we) didn't take our case to the
investigators, and I also stated our several very good reasons why
not. So no investigation ever took place, and your point is moot.
Furthermore, that we didn't pursue the matter to the point of
requesting an investigation, doesn't mean it didn't happen. It
happened. I was there. You weren't. Your skepticism does not alter
that fact.
You are entitled to believe that the system is corrupt and to
express that
belief. However, you are not entitled to state that opinion as
fact.
I most certainly am. The fact that I sometimes fail to preface my
remarks with "it is my sincere and well-considered belief that"
or "I think, but I am mortal, so this thought of mine should not be
construed as fact, but" or some such palaver, doesn't change the
fact that any sane person reading the post would interpret it as an
expression of an OPINION. However: (see below)
I have
on numerous occasions asked you to provide specific evidence to
back up
your factual misrepresentations. You are never able to do so.
I am never WILLING to do so, because it would involve digging into
sometimes decade-old newspaper archives. There have been several
cases where someone else has done this out of curiosity, and
my "misrepresentations" have always been backed up. Frankly, you're
just one person, who's strongly disinclined to believe me anyway,
and it's not worth the time and effort to try to "prove" something
to you that I KNOW to be true and that you won't believe even when
the evidence IS presented before you.
If you are so certain that the entire gaming industry in Nevada is
conspiring against you then perhaps you should not patronize the
casinos.
But there are people reading these posts who think that when facts
are
posted they are accurate.
For the sake of these people, please stick to opinion in the
future or
provide backup for your "facts".
I am certain that the gaming industry in Nevada is and has always
been corrupt, and that the Gaming Control Board, which after all was
a creation of the casinos, is and always has been corrupt. This
viewpoint or belief or thought, however you want to semanticize it,
is based on reading the local newspaper, watching the local
newscasts, and listening to the news on the radio virtually every
day for the last TWENTY YEARS. Therefore I DO give it more weight
than I might some lightly-considered opinion, such as "Fried bats
taste best in a white wine sauce".
Once again, the backup is there; just hit the news archives. If I
have a corresponding SUBJECTIVE opinion, I consider that too to be
well-founded, based on my reading over and over and over and over
about how player complaints are constantly rejected out of hand, and
the total absence of any punitive action against the casinos
for "irregularities", with the previously-noted exception of income-
reporting snafus reated to possible skimming, which sometimes
resulted in slap-on-the-wrist fines, and wouldn't have taken place
at all without IRS pressure.
Thank you.
BTW, if you've been on this board for any length of time, you should
know that someone telling me that he or she dislikes the opinions
that I hold, or the beliefs I express, doesn't affect me in the
slightest; I expect that to happen as long as I stray from
the "fluffy white bunnies" sort of posting.
I LIKE FLUFFY WHITE BUNNIES.
Nyahh.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333" <rockofjello333@y...>
wrote:
The Nevada GCC does not actually engage in any enforcement activities
against the casinos whatsoever. There is no oversight and no actual
regulation.
I can't defend the Nevada GCC, because I don't know much about it.
But I do think, where VP/slots are concerned, they can do their job
and never set foot in a casino. That's because VP/slots are mini-
computers with a logic chip. The Nevada GCC can test the logic chips
at the IGT factory before they are installed, require that the chips
are virtually impossible to alter (with seals, etc.) once installed,
and lastly, make sure casinos follow strict guidelines when they want
to change the VP pay schedules or slot return percentage. IGT is the
entity that needs oversight/regulation. Casinos just market the
product.
Hi all, have decided to rent @ the Airport, using AAA discount and
double upgrade...so I presume the optimal procedure is to rent the
cheapest (economy?) car and then upgrade at the counter (Hertz--I know,
not the cheapest, but with the discount, somewhat close to it); any ways
to wrangle the neverlost GPS system in a car without paying for it??
Thanks
Brian
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"
<rockofjello333@y...>
wrote:
>
The Nevada GCC does not actually engage in any enforcement
activities
against the casinos whatsoever. There is no oversight and no
actual
regulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I can't defend the Nevada GCC, because I don't know much about
it.
But I do think, where VP/slots are concerned, they can do their
job
and never set foot in a casino. That's because VP/slots are mini-
computers with a logic chip. The Nevada GCC can test the logic
chips
at the IGT factory before they are installed, require that the
chips
are virtually impossible to alter (with seals, etc.) once
installed,
and lastly, make sure casinos follow strict guidelines when they
want
to change the VP pay schedules or slot return percentage. IGT is
the
entity that needs oversight/regulation. Casinos just market the
product.
Have you ever, or has anyone ever, seen Gaming officials march into
a casino, seize a machine or bank of machines, and take them away
for inspection? Or conduct any kind of unannounced audit or
inspection? This would be the only way to validate that the machines
ON THE FLOOR, RIGHT NOW, are fair and random as they're supposed to
be.
So why isn't this done? Because the casinos DON'T WANT THEM TO DO
IT. The disruption and the effect it would have on customers who
only see Gaming swooping down, not understanding that it's part of a
routine checkup, are what scares the casinos.
To make a comparison, bank audits are unannounced, occur without
warning, and all employees are expected to leave everything exactly
the way it was when the examiners entered the building. If Gaming
was serious about enforcement, they would conduct surprise audits
and examinations in this fashion on a regular basis.
With any kind of warning, a software program that overlays the
existing programs--such as one that reassigns weighted values to
cards (which would be illegal)--could be erased in moments, probably
without actually opening the machine, by turning the slot key to
the "diagnostic" setting and then using the buttons as a keyboard to
input a code sequence. In case you're wondering how I know all this,
I was told how the American Coin machines cheated in some detail
(the overlay program simply examined the final hand to see if it was
a royal flush; if it was, it simply instructed the main program not
to display the results, and instead, redraw), by a friend who was an
IGT slot tech/builder. He also says that a "master" subprogram can
be loaded into volatile memory and programmed to erase itself
whenever a machine is opened, powered down, put into diagnostic
mode, etc. In other words, the people who built these things are FAR
ahead of the people who try to examine them.
You have to keep in mind that IGT and other slot manufacturers sell
slot machines in Nevada AND other jurisdictions. In many of those
jurisdictions, what we would call blatantly cheating VP machines are
perfectly legal (such as the Washington State "fake VP" machines).
Now, either you build entirely new machines for these jurisdictions--
which are a small part of the market--or you simply make it possible
to alter the existing platforms.
Also, my experience with C code and assembly language tells me that
the writer of such code can hide an "irregularity" deep within a
subprogram that is so obtuse that no one but another programmer who
works in the same field and is familiar with the gaming subroutines
and algorithms installed in slot/VP machine software could possibly
fathom or detect it. And where ARE all such individuals employed?
(hint: They don't work for Gaming)
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:
You still haven't answered the question of why you continue to allow
yourself to be cheated.
Have you ever, or has anyone ever, seen Gaming officials march into
a casino, seize a machine or bank of machines, and take them away
for inspection? Or conduct any kind of unannounced audit or
inspection? This would be the only way to validate that the machines
ON THE FLOOR, RIGHT NOW, are fair and random as they're supposed to
be.
They can be audited by examining that the factory chips are still intact.
Hooking up a notebook computer with diagnostic software can audit the
machine and no customer would even be aware that Gaming was auditing the
casino. It happens frequently at small casinos, very infrequently (if at
all) at large, corporate ones.
With any kind of warning, a software program that overlays the
existing programs--such as one that reassigns weighted values to
cards (which would be illegal)--could be erased in moments, probably
without actually opening the machine, by turning the slot key to
the "diagnostic" setting and then using the buttons as a keyboard to
input a code sequence. In case you're wondering how I know all this,
I was told how the American Coin machines cheated in some detail
(the overlay program simply examined the final hand to see if it was
a royal flush; if it was, it simply instructed the main program not
to display the results, and instead, redraw), by a friend who was an
IGT slot tech/builder. He also says that a "master" subprogram can
be loaded into volatile memory and programmed to erase itself
whenever a machine is opened, powered down, put into diagnostic
mode, etc. In other words, the people who built these things are FAR
ahead of the people who try to examine them.
You are assuming that either new chips were installed in the machine
(easily detected) or IGT ships gaffed machines (absurd -- they have no
incentive to do so).
You have to keep in mind that IGT and other slot manufacturers sell
slot machines in Nevada AND other jurisdictions. In many of those
jurisdictions, what we would call blatantly cheating VP machines are
perfectly legal (such as the Washington State "fake VP" machines).
Now, either you build entirely new machines for these jurisdictions--
which are a small part of the market--or you simply make it possible
to alter the existing platforms.
Kevin, again you are showing ignorance of the laws in various
jurisdictions. Washington State does not permit Class III machines nor do
many other jurisdictions. In most of those the machines are actually
playing a Bingo game and the game itself is displayed on the machines with
the results displayed as reels or VP games (if there are any Class II VP
machines, I've never seen one but there is no reason why there should not be.)
Washington State is a bit different (I've heard them referred to as Class 2
1/2 machines). They are truly lottery terminals. When the game is initiated
a central lottery computer's RNG determines an outcome, either 0 or some $
amount. The paybacks are NOT reflected by the paytable unlike EVERY Class
III IGT VP machine. If the lottery computer selects a top jackpot then the
display will reflect a Royal Flush, at least after the draw. It does not
matter what cards you hold the end result is always determined when the
game is initiated. Everything else is entertainment. However, this does
not indicate that the machines are "cheating", nor are they "fake". And it
is not a secret how they work, all anyone need do is ask. If they were
"cheating" they would hide this information. Instead, it is public record.
As I've asked you previously, please do not make statements of fact which
are provably false. One of the benefits of email lists like this is that
there are people who know the facts and can explain why machines behave as
they do in different areas. My information came from an executive of a
company that makes machines for the Washington State market.
Also, my experience with C code and assembly language tells me that
the writer of such code can hide an "irregularity" deep within a
subprogram that is so obtuse that no one but another programmer who
works in the same field and is familiar with the gaming subroutines
and algorithms installed in slot/VP machine software could possibly
fathom or detect it. And where ARE all such individuals employed?
(hint: They don't work for Gaming)
Actually, Gaming prefers to hire testers who have experience programming
slot machines for the major manufacturers. Of course IGT or any other
company could hide cheating subroutines that need activation and would not
be detected by routine testing. Or a rogue programmer could do the same (as
happened in Bingo two years ago). But if IGT programmed cheating routines
that needed to be activated they would have to tell Slot Directors about it
and give them the key. By now there would be hundreds of people in on the
secret. And no one has told? Again, your failure to post accurate
information (hint: yes, they do) shows a reckless disregard for facts and a
willingness to justify your fears with theories that do not stand up to the
simplest scrutiny.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill Coleman wrote:
Washington State does not permit Class III machines nor do
many other jurisdictions ... Washington State is a bit different
(I've heard them referred to as Class 2 1/2 machines). They are
truly lottery terminals. When the game is initiated a central
lottery computer's RNG determines an outcome, either 0 or some $
amount. The paybacks are NOT reflected by the paytable unlike EVERY
Class III IGT VP machine.
I just want to clarify that the WA State tribal vp games (e.g. "Match
Card Bingo") are classified as Class III equipment as defined by the NIGC.
Keep in mind that Class II specifically refers to pseudo-Bingo
simulation games. Anything else falls into Class III. This includes
non-fully random games such as video lottery terminals as well as the
familiar random equipment such as found in Las Vegas.
The point is that one should be clear that Class III doesn't translate
as necessary "fair".
- Harry
Bill,
It's obvious that I'm not going to convince you of anything, nor you
of me. However, I'd appreciate if you would not characterize my
disagreeing with you as "ignorance". I've seen things you haven't,
talked to people you've never met, and been places you've never
seen. So my viewpoints are different than yours. That doesn't make
YOU "ignorant" any more than my disagreeing with you makes
ME "ignorant". Since you seem to have set yourself up as self-
appointed watchdog to point out the untruth of my opinions
(ostensibly to protect the naive masses from the perjury of my
words), why don't we save a lot of bandwidth by agreeing to
disagree, and refraining from boring the members of this board by
continually reiterating our disagreement (especially since it's
gotten well-nigh automatic in your case)?
BTW, I'm aware of the parameters of the Washington State
lottery/gaming/pseudo-VP machines and the rules governing them. What
I object to it that they project the ILLUSION of the player having
some control of the outcome (as he indeed does in REAL video poker).
Nowhere on the machine, or in the casino, is it stated that player
input has no effect whatsoever on the outcome. To not reveal a
simple basic fact such as that about how the game functions is
CHEATING in my humble OPINION, which opinion is obviously not shared
by the powers that regulate such things in Washington State, which
does not change by one iota my opinion that it is indeed cheating,
nor does it affect my right to say it, here, or elsewhere.
Also, I do NOT state my opinions/viewpoints/whatever the hell you
want to call them to "mislead" anyone, as you have so many times
stated. In the first place, I think most people on this board are
capable of forming their own opinions even while heretics like me
post their blasphemy. Second, I have no agenda here, other than to
warn people against what I've SEEN, HEARD, READ, and (most
important) EXPERIENCED.
I don't know what your personal agenda is in taking up the banner of
the casinos, but I'm sure it isn't from a deliberate plan
to "mislead" anyone or spoken out of "ignorance". If you cannot
disagree with me without affording me the same dignity, I would ask
you not to express your disagreement at all.