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SIN CITY and OLD BIDDIES

A geriatric groupie! VERY NICE

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: hansjurgent
  To: FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:39 AM
  Subject: [FREEvpFREE] Re: SIN CITY and OLD BIDDIES

  "Judge not unless ye be judged."

  You have a lot of bad prejudices. I'll be ignoring you now.

  Long Live Jean Scott!

  --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:
  > You still don't get it. The comps you're talking about and the
  ones
  > she blabs about all the time are two different animals. And I
  > actually do far better than her with a lot less play at all
  > levels....and I win.
  >
  > One point you didn't miss, however, is that video poker is a low-
  > class vice. Look around at any mostly locals casino at all the
  > regular vp players on your next visit. What do you see? Right--the
  > MAJORITY are some of the lowest of life's leftovers....people who
  > consume far too much alcohol, most are chain smokers, and many who
  > take pbesity to the highest level. Self-respect is NOT is most
  video
  > poker player's vocabulary. Your lady hero would just as soon sell
  her
  > products to anyone of these pathetic people, while I offer to
  teach
  > them a better way at no charge. I help them to think for
  themselves
  > while staying away from all the sales pitches thrown at them by
  > people who seem to have no problem sticking their hands in other
  > people's pockets.
  >
  > --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hansjurgent"
  <hansjurgent16@h...>
  > wrote:
  > > I think your jealous of her success and her comps. What a
  bitter
  > > old man you have become.
  > >
  > > You can get quite a few comps with low level gambling. I barely
  > > take $500 to Vegas and I get free buffets and free rooms by
  using
  > > her system and strategy. I used to play slots and lose $100 in
  a
  > > half hour and now I play video poker and play for hours.
  > >
  > > Thanks for contributing to the stigma that gambling is a low
  life
  > > vice lower than drinking alcohol, smoking or overeating which
  kills
  > > more people and wastes more taxpayer money than gambling. I
  > > appreciate it.
  > >
  > > You've become jealous of a retired school teacher what a sad man
  > you
  > > are.
  > >
  > > --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...>
  wrote:
  > > > I don't think you get it. Since when does someone who claims
  to
  > be
  > > so
  > > > frugal--and who really has a bunch of lower-level players that
  > > > idolize her--blab so often about playing on the machines I
  > > > mentioned? "Frugal" gamblers do not play higher than quarters,
  > and
  > > > most of them can't even afford THAT. Anyone who buys into her
  vp
  > > show
  > > > whenever she toots her horn about all that casino junk and
  pile
  > of
  > > > comps/gift certificates she gets "for free" SHOULD be
  intelligent
  > > > enough to realize that it takes several hundred thousands of
  > > dollars
  > > > run through the machines every month to keep that nonsense up.
  > And
  > > > that spells a-d-d-i-c-t-i-o-n. It also spells "I paid $650 for
  > > > my 'free' lunch buffet I got with my points". That is NOT what
  > > public
  > > > figures should be teaching people.
  > > >
  > > > RS
  > > >
  > > > --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hansjurgent"
  > > <hansjurgent16@h...>
  > > > wrote:
  > > > > So she likes to gamble, don't we all (who are reading this)?
  > > > >
  > > > > Stop with these addict comments! It just perpetuates the
  > stigma
  > > > > associated with gambling.
  > > > >
  > > > > I would think if she was a guru she would be at most casino
  > > > > promotions.
  > > > >
  > > > > She is not the "high roller gambler" but the "frugal
  gambler."
  > > > >
  > > > > Jealousy is so unbecoming.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

and Hans is ignorant people

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: hansjurgent
  To: FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 11:48 AM
  Subject: [FREEvpFREE] Re: SIN CITY and OLD BIDDIES

  Bill is good people.

  --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:
  > Bill, you and this hans fellow are exactly the type of weak
  > individuals Jean thrives and preys off of. You both build her
  > confidence up so she feels right about developing that state of
  > theoretical fantasy which leads to it being "OK" to play far
  beyond
  > her means, and you're both incapable of thinking for yourselves.
  And
  > I don't think you personally WANT to believe I win so often and so
  > much because you cannot win yourself--although you just can't
  shake
  > that phony long-term/expert-play strategy habit--if you even
  really
  > play that way.
  >
  > God bless you, and thank you for posting the shortest message of
  your
  > life!
  >
  > --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...>
  wrote:
  > > deadin7 wrote:
  > >
  > > > You still don't get it. The comps you're talking about and the
  > ones
  > > > she blabs about all the time are two different animals. And I
  > > > actually do far better than her with a lot less play at all
  > > > levels....and I win.
  > >
  > > I feel a sneeze coming on. <Uhhh ... uhhhh .... uhhh-Bull
  > Shit.>
  > > Excuse me, Rob, ... sorry about that ... you were saying ...?
  > >
  > > Bill

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..if only he had a brain

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: hansjurgent
  To: FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 3:03 PM
  Subject: [FREEvpFREE] Re: SIN CITY and OLD BIDDIES

  You're in contact with thousands of people? Why are dicking around
  with this yahoo group? You are on here all the time. There is only
  a 100 members.

  You probably live in a trailer outside of Laughlin.

  --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:
  > No, I've BEEN all over the world many times over, and have lived
  in 6
  > foreign countries. Most people ARE good people in 3rd world
  > countries, because they have far more drive in getting ahead than
  we
  > do. The fact that they live like slugs means nothing to them, and
  > should mean nothing to us when we talk about 'good' or 'bad'.
  >
  > I would state that what I do in video poker compared to what you
  do,
  > I'm in a far better position to extract the truth about who plays
  and
  > who does not than you or any of your studies. You likely have a
  small
  > group of 'buddies' you hang around with - or a few family members,
  > and you might surf the Internet for other opinions that match
  yours -
  > including studies by those who are pro-gambling and Internet
  > gambling. I don't mess with such ambiguities or biases. I'm in
  > constant contact with thousands of players all the time for the
  dose
  > of reality that you are lacking, and it also doesn't take much
  > upstairs to figure out what type of players play this game when
  you
  > go in and look around the casinos all the time.
  >
  > Rob
  >
  > --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...>
  wrote:
  > > --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...>
  wrote:
  > > > When people discuss such issues, they usually speak in
  > > generalities.
  > > > Most people DO drive,
  > >
  > > In this assertion that most people "DO" drive you must be
  limiting
  > > your view to the non-third world counties. Or, do you believe
  your
  > > statement is true all over the world and most of them are
  not "good
  > > people".
  > >
  > > > just as most people who play video poker are
  > > > overweight, they on average drink much more than others, their
  > > income
  > > > level is far below the norm, and their levels of discipline,
  > > > determination & self-confidence are severely lacking. We're
  not
  > all
  > > > like that, but in general, overwhelmingly that's what our
  group
  > is
  > > > like.
  > > >
  > >
  > > And what scientific study, may I ask, is this pearl of wisdom
  based
  > > on? I doubt the demographics of the gambling population is all
  that
  > > different from the general population, but if you have something
  to
  > > backup your assertion please feel free to post it. By the way, I
  > have
  > > seen a study on gamblers income and education levels. The group
  as
  > a
  > > whole was ABOVE average. I don't remember where I saw this but
  if I
  > > can find it I will post a link.
  > >
  > > It looks to me like you've created a view in your mind that
  > gamblers
  > > are generally "bad people" to justify your behavior. It wouldn't
  be
  > > nice to "scam" good people.
  > >
  > > Dick

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  From: hansjurgent
  To: FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:39 AM

  Long Live Jean Scott!

Well, we certainly don't wish her anything that would take her away
from us. I do wish she at least portrayed that same feeling towards
her boyfriend though. Dragging him in and out of the smoke-unfested
casinos all the time hasn't helped his health any, and if it were up
to me I'd prefer, especially because he's a veteran, that he enjoy a
life outside the casinos.

> You admit (1) the math is valid and (2) learning Perfect play

isn't

> difficult, and then you state the "theory doesn't work". Amazing!
> The first two items ARE the theory in practice. QED.

That's an incomplete answer to what I said. That's typical of

people

who aren't capable of going any further with a 'theory'.

No, what I said is proof. You just can't seem to understand the
basics of simple math and logic.

. All you're doing is preaching a math class. Where's
> > YOUR proof--you always ask for mine! Prove to me that you're

more

> > than a boring math geek when it comes to video poker.

> "boring math geek"? Looks like you're back in the 3rd grade

again.

> Name calling is a clear sign you have lost the ability to debate
> intelligently.

Even if you're hurt by my truthful response, that's no reason not

to

answer the questions or debate the statements. I see nothing but a
cop out here.

Another good belly laugh. How does one debate name calling?

>
> Let's see, you stated in the last note that it was impossible to
> prove or disprove whether someone made a profit (I even agreed

with

> you) and now your asking for the exact proof you said was
impossible.

So why do you keep asking ME to produce evidence that I win? Have

you

figured that part out yet or what?

No, in the last post I never ask for you to provide evidence that you
win. I thought we agreed earlier that this was not possible. Once
again you show a complete lack of reading comprehension. I did ask
you to provide mathematical support for your systems.

> I will repeat what I stated before. I have no motive to lie. I

will

> not make a dime if anyone believes me or not.

Seems like you've taken that statement from several of my articles.

I have never read any of your articles. So, once again, another of
your assertions is false. It's becoming more apparent that your ego
is your driving factor. You tend to use the "I" word and the "my"
word to excess.

> > Show us how a human can attain the same results as a computer,
how we never tire, are never distracted, and never make mistakes. I
never said any of this was necessary. Are you going off the deep

end?

What's the 'deep end'? Yes, you were portraying that position until

I

rattled you into saying the equivalent of "you don't really need to
play perfectly--just almost perfectly". That's what they all say

when

I open that can of worms. It's an unsubstantiated position on a
theory that doesn't work with people and you know it. Even Skip
Hughes knows it.

Rattled? Since I've never said completely accurate play is required
how do you come to this conclusion? You must be dreaming again. As
for "unsubstantiated", you are once again ignoring the mathematical
proof.

> No, you tell me, what's the difference between your system and
> Martingale?

You mean you can't figure that out? A mathematical mind that isn't
able to understand this point? Martingale works only on table

games.

In video poker, I've lost 32 hands in a row -- all within the same
denomination -- and still went home with +$2600. I double nothing.
The casino can't stop me with too high a limit for my bankroll. My
system and that disastrous method is as far apart as day & night.

If I remember right you move up to the next higher denomination
machine when you lose a certain amount a money. Please, correct me if
I'm wrong. I don't want to mis-state your system before I show you
it's mathematically equivalent to the Martingale system.

> This is pure and simple garbage. Produce any mathematical model,
> statistical model or objective empirical evidence that what you

are

> saying is true? Of course, you can't since it's not based on a
sound mathematical foundation.
>This is the RS scam ... That somehow you can structure your

betting

> to change mathematical probabilities. It just doesn't work that

way

> Rob and never will. Over time anyone's results will approach the
> level of skill they use. If they play at a 99% skill level then
they will lose 1% of their money.If you say anything else works

(like

your progression system) that gives people false hope, and that

makes

you a fraud.

The reason you can't accept my Play Strategies is because you don't
know enough about them. I don't alter anything mathematically, in
fact, I don't care about or even consider mathematics when I play.

This pretty much nets out the whole problem with your approach.

That's where all you optimal-play fanatics go wrong. You're tied to

a

strategy that only the casinos have an advantage at.

Quit with the worthless assertions. You have never proved this and,
in fact, can't prove it. The mathematically based proof I have
previously described has shown just the opposite to be true.

If you play at a
99% skill level you WILL lose 1% of your money--over hundreds of
millions of hands.

Wrong again, it may take thousands to maybe 5 million hands depending
on the volatility of the game. It's in the math.

But no one either cares about or does that--it's
just a classroom theory who's "practice" is enjoyed only by the
casinos. They're the only ones who see that much play. I don't win

by

altering the math. I go after high-paying winners that almost

always

show, and I don't usually need them to win. And I'm not greedy--I
stop when I reach a limit. That's called taking complete advantage

of

good luck and walking when it arrives.

Now you're stating that your system is "luckier" than a
mathematically sound approach. Is this funny or what?

As for giving people false
hope, I don't care what they have or do. I'm not selling them
anything about strategy. I report my play results, answer thousands
of questions about my strategies, and tell people if they don't
understand my 1700+ special plays then they likely won't win as

often

and as much percentage-wise as I do.

So, this is how you get around the inevitable losses that will come
to those who use your system. You come back with "Oh, you must have
missed option 1399 out of the 1700+ special plays". I'm getting a
better picture of your scam all the time.

You and your misconceptions are
what creates this perceived 'scam' you're always mentioning.

No misconceptions required.

> So, you don't make any money writing for GT?

No, I turned down the money--which is probably a lot to Hughes and
Dancer and the Queen but not to me--for occasional ads on my book

and

site. And if they stop those I'll still write for as long as I or
they want me to. My message about the fradulent long-term strategy
method and the phony gurus who sell that baloney for their own gain
is what drives me.

No, I think you're driven by your own eqo. Since you can't get
attention presenting a factual representation of VP you've gone to an
anti-establishment approach to catch whatever praise you can get.

> Nope, this is all in your mind. I suspect because you had/have an
> addiction it makes you feel better to think most others have the
same weakness/disease. It just ain't so. Get over it.

As I said, people who gamble as you say you do and deny they have
this addiction do have it. You have your opinion and I have mine,

but

I'm the one known for separating the truth from fiction. All you

are

is someone in denial. As a writer you would fail.

Nope, you have your assertions and your scam, and I have the facts.
Too bad your ego keeps you in "denial".

> All you need to do is ask. I have talked with many people in Las
> Vegas, Reno and elsewhere that make a profit. They have no motive
to lie to me as they are not selling anything. Naturally, there are
> always a few who exaggerate, but they are in the minority.

How do you know who's in the minority and who's in the majority?

You

and your group always say "there's hundreds of pros and other

players

prowling the streets of Nevada who win win win with advantage play,
soak the casinos for comps, gifts, and cash back, get a ton of
freebies, and yet no casino manager ever blinks an eye--and all

this,

with the Queen blabbing all over the place where she does it and

how

much they give her "for free". And I'm sure you know there's no
bigger liars than gamblers....except fishermen. So if you believe

all

those people you claim to have discussed their prowess with, that
proves less than nothing.

I agree it proves nothing, just like "all" of your assertions. I was
just giving you a little of your own medicine.

> Like I said, it is not necessary to play perfectly to play with

an

> advantage. However, it does require a high degree of accuracy.
> Harping on the "perfect-play" issue is is a waste of time. It's

not

> needed nor is it relevant.

Accuracy, perfection....the next thing you'll say is immortality.

Nope, not required.

OK,
so like I said, it's the default statement that you and your kind
come out with when I talk common sense about the subject.

If you consider an unsound mathematical approach to be common sense
then you are showing very little common sense.

> I'm going assume this is a truthful statement. So, here's a

little

of my personal history for you. For over 20 years I gambled a

couple

of times a year playing mostly slots. Naturally, I lost during this
> time, but I never gambled very much (nickel/quarter) and never
> considered myself much of a gambler. My wife is actually the one
who loves to gamble. When I started playing advantage VP I went the
first 5 1/2 months without a RF. I also had about 1/2 the number of
> secondary jackpots (equivalent of 4 deuces) in this same period

of

> time. During this time I played over 200K hands. I lost over

$6,000

> playing .25 VP. I could easily have become discouraged and given
up. Instead, I kept with it. This was almost 6 years ago. Since

then

I have probably played 3-4 million hands and I am ahead. My overall
> results are almost exactly what the math predicts. So, "it"
> actually "does work" if you stay with it for the long term.

If I assume what you're saying is the truth, you're play has been
blessed by luck--esp. lately.

Lately? Over 5 1/2 years. You must work on that reading comprehension.

The rest is common sense. Video poker
uses very little skill. How hard is it to make the seemingly

correct

hold? And who's to say that if you didn't, a good winner wouldn't
appear over and over and over and over again--easily wiping out any
perceived disadvantage you'd have for years to come. 2-3 million
hands is not a good sampling at all when we're talking about a game
where people can easily be distracted, tire, and make many mistakes
they have no idea they're making.

Your assertions are getting weaker and weaker. Talking about a single
hand/hold has nothing to do with long term success. However, "2-3
million hands" is a sufficiently large number of hands to be
mathematically sound.

> I don't know why you experienced poor results. It probably was

just

> poor luck like it was for me. If you've made money since then,

it's

> probably due to a simple change in luck. Since you are still

using

> expert play strategies then you are the beneficiary of advantage
> play. Your progression system and "quit when you reach a goal
> strategy" may have helped you overcome your addiction, but it's

had

> absolutely nothing to do with your long term results.

You've actually said something that's 100% correct and I agree
wholeheartedly with. Yes, it is the reason why I no longer have

that

addiction, or desire to play for long periods of time. But you're
dead wrong when you don't accept my strategy is why I'm so far

ahead

now. Increases in denomination as well as volatility do make a
difference.

Show me the math. You can't because it just isn't true.

Check out my record on my site. You know how many times
you've sat at a machine and have been ahead by ANY amount--but left

a

loser. I usually don't leave a loser, because I take advantage of

the

many times i'm ahead.

From a mathematical standpoint all of your play is equivalent to a
single session. It has to do with mathematical associativity. You
know associativity don't you (3+2+1 = 1+2+3)? What you said above is
pure fantasy.

> Nope. Short term: luck is the most important factor, long term:
> strategy is the most important factor. This is supported by the
math and your assertions cannot change it.

You're wrong again. Every hand won is due to luck.

I think that's what I just said. Or, doesn't one hand qualify as
short term in your mind? Now if you want to restate that as "All
hands won are due to luck" then I would disagree. This is when the
math becomes important.

You may WANT it to
be due to some strategy or playing prowess, but you have no control
over the most important part of the game: the deal. And it's even
more important on multi-plays. Skill has little to do with any of

it,

and you know that.

Skill has everthing to do with it and I know that. Your assertions
mean nothing. You like to focus on a single hand or, in this case a
single deal, that's not relevant. What is relevant is your skill
level across many hands.

> Spoken like a true scammer. You sound like a TV commerical for

the

> latest gym equipment. "Just 3 minutes a week and you too can have
perfect abs". If you want to be successful at any endeavor then

hard

work is required. I like being successful, so I continue to work at
it.

I'm very successful at the game and I have nothing to do with it

when

I'm home except when people come to town and want to train at the
Indian casino. Besides, I believe a home occupied with a habit has
seen better days. Around here, you won't see me try to force my

wife

or boyfriend (like Dancer and the Queen have done) into believing
that video poker is the most important thing on earth. That comes
from an uncontrollable compulsion to gamble. Working at it while at
home? I consider that a confidence-building sickness.

Of course you do, anything that would make someone successful would
eliminate them as a potential victim of your scams.

> What a bunch of mularky.
>Looks like I hit the truth pretty much right on the nose. I can
> always tell when you start babbling.

So you have nothing prepared to defend it--big surprise.

Defend what. Unproveable assertions on your part. You're getting
funnier by the moment.

> NO. To me it's money AND entertainment. Since your "play plan" is
> mathematically unsound then you are wasting a lot of time.

More denial.

Not on my part. I'm still waiting for any mathematical support for
your endless assertions.

> More babble. Don't you have anything at all clever to say. This
must be about the 10th time you've repeated yourself.

Must be because you don't show you understood anything prior.

I think you've got that backwards. I'm the one with the mathematical
proof. You're the one with nothing but worthless assertions.

> Covered earlier. First you say a proof is impossible, then you

say

> give me a proof. Make up your mind.

OK, give me proof. That's what you ask of me, is it not?

I already gave you a mathematical proof. You love to skip over that
and get back to the unproveable assertions of wins/losses.

> You really have lost it. We agree expert play is mathematically
> sound. You stated earlier it's not that difficult to master. It's
now simply up to the "law of large numbers". That is, the long

term.

This is a sound mathematical fact. Before you disagree, read on ..

Back to the classroom again. And again, it all means nothing to
anyone anytime they play. It's simply a feel-good position those

who

are overly addicted to the game take in order to justify their

habit.

It means everything if someone wants to be successful. Keep on
denying the facts, it's really a gas to see you make a fool of
yourself.

> Since you stated earlier you're an engineer you should know this.
> Quantum physics contains a lot probability theory. It's how
scientist
> are able to accurately predict much of nature when studying
particles
> at an atomic scale. The "law of large numbers" is how Quantum
physics
> manifests itself in the macro world. If you disagree with this
fact,
> then that is the equivalent of saying the universe does not exist.

Back to the classroom AGAIN.

No come back? No reference to addiction? You must be getting tired.
Of course, there's nothing meaningful you can say (even though that
seldom stops you). I'm talking irrefutable facts. Not surprising a
scamster like you would want to skip over this.

I didn't invent the math or the "probability theories", I'm simply
> trying to explain them to you. You resist because you'd have to
admit you're a fraud and all of your character assassinations were
targeted at those who were simply providing truthful information.
> If your publishers also deny mathematical facts then they are no
> better than you. However, I suspect they'd be more open.

So why don't you submit a sample of your writings and see what they
say??? As for the concept of math models & probability theories,
you're preaching to someone who could probably teach you a class on
them.

I'm ready. Start preaching.

I've been on both sides of the fence, and I came prepared.

Clearly, you're not prepared since you haven't given a single scrap
of evidence that's mathematically sound.

You're only on one side and you're not.

I'm prepared, come on let's see your "math models & probability
theories".

We're in different leagues.
That's the biggest misconception you critics have, and it's all
because you wear those expert-play blinders.

No blinders here. If you can show me mathematically sound evidence
supporting your position then I will agree with you.

Along this line of thought, I have shown you mathematically sound
evidence supporting advantage play and you still deny it's validity.
Who's wearing the blinders?

Dick

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:

I think it's time to net out our positions. I will try to separate
opinions (assertions) from mathematically sounds principles.

First, let me define a new term. I'll call it "maximum play". It is
the selection of the best possible hold for any VP hand of a given
game for all possible dealt hands. I think we both can agree that
the "theory" behind maximum play is mathematically sound. This is
evident in that it only takes the standard mathematical operations:
addition, subtraction, multiplication and division the logical
operators > (greater than), < (less than) and = (equal) to compute
the return of any VP game. I also think we can agree that "maximum
play" yields returns greater than 100% for certain VP games.

Next, expert play strategy is the selection of the best hold for any
given 5 card deal. There are 32 possible holds for any dealt hand.
Essentially, maximum play (defined above) requires using expert play
strategy on every possible hand to achieve the maximum return.

Now I will define advantage play. Advantage play is the long term use
of expert play strategy, allowing for some errors, that still yields
returns greater than 100%. I think this is where we disagree. You
assert this is not possible, I assert it is posssible. Let's dig a
little deeper.

The next mathematical field required is statistics. Using statistics
it is possible to compute a range of possible results from using
expert play strategy for a large number of hands. In other words,
statistics allows us to evaluate advantage play. This is where the
use of the term "long term" comes into play. Statistics can only be
used validly when dealing with large numbers. Terms such as variance,
standard deviation and effective return (ER) are all statistical
values generated when examining a specific VP game.

I won't go any further at this time with the math at this time.

If you disagree with anything I've stated above, let's examine your
objections before going on.

Next, let's see if we can agree on our assertions.

You assert that advantage play in not possible for many reasons, such
as interruptions, getting tired, etc. whereas, I assert that even
with these factors, advantage play is possible.

Dick

No, what I said is proof. You just can't seem to understand the
basics of simple math and logic.

What you SAID is proof? Try that on people from Missouri....

Another good belly laugh. How does one debate name calling?

Like this. I'll bet you have quite the belly to laugh with, being
you're an addicted video poker player.
   

No, in the last post I never ask for you to provide evidence that

you

win. I thought we agreed earlier that this was not possible. Once
again you show a complete lack of reading comprehension. I did ask
you to provide mathematical support for your systems.

They're not 'systems'--they're Play Strategies. And since they're not
based totally on mathematical nonsense (because I'm smart enough to
realize that the math is ALWAYS on the side of the casinos) the
support lies with the results.
  

I have never read any of your articles.

No one will believe that.

Rattled? Since I've never said completely accurate play is required
how do you come to this conclusion? You must be dreaming again. As
for "unsubstantiated", you are once again ignoring the mathematical
proof.

You're rattled because you yak on and on about mathematical proof but
you provide none in the form of play results that can be
substantiated. And you know i know that.
     

If I remember right you move up to the next higher denomination
machine when you lose a certain amount a money. Please, correct me

if

I'm wrong. I don't want to mis-state your system before I show you
it's mathematically equivalent to the Martingale system.

Read my Play Strategy on my home page if you can't 'remember' what
you've read before. Even you're buddy the great Bob Dancer couldn't
equate my strategy to Martingale after a debate, so good luck on the
impossible. I guess the easiest part for you to try to prove
mathematically is in why I cannot be stopped by my own bankroll when
that's a key in Martingale.

Wrong again, it may take thousands to maybe 5 million hands

depending on the volatility of the game. It's in the math.

You apparently have not been involved in any actual samplings at all.
Oh, I get it. You have no experience, but you have the THEORY once
again! I wonder what it's like basing one's entire life on theory...

Now you're stating that your system is "luckier" than a
mathematically sound approach. Is this funny or what?

You didn't read it correctly. I have no more luck than you or your
wife when I play. But i have a plan and i know what to do with it.
Good luck means something to me. To you, it's just a way to keep on
playing like a zombie.

So, this is how you get around the inevitable losses that will come
to those who use your system. You come back with "Oh, you must have
missed option 1399 out of the 1700+ special plays". I'm getting a
better picture of your scam all the time.

As I said, I don't care who uses my strategies, how they do, or what
happens to them when they do--and I tell them that. So please explain
where the scam is. They were developed only for my personal
circumstances, bankroll, and levels of determination and discipline--
and no one else's. But those who do choose to use them in their own
variation will undoubtedly lose less and/or win for a change.

No, I think you're driven by your own eqo. Since you can't get
attention presenting a factual representation of VP you've gone to

an anti-establishment approach to catch whatever praise you can get.

You ducked the point.

I agree it proves nothing, just like "all" of your assertions. I

was just giving you a little of your own medicine.

???
  

Lately? Over 5 1/2 years. You must work on that readincomprehension.

Yes, that's lately.

Your assertions are getting weaker and weaker. Talking about a

single hand/hold has nothing to do with long term success.
However, "2-3

million hands" is a sufficiently large number of hands to be
mathematically sound.

Like I said, you're showing you haven't any experience with actual
samplings. You can believe all you choose to that your play is a good
sampling, but that's only because you need it to be in order to
continue with your incessant habit. My sympathies to you and yours.

  
Show me the math. You can't because it just isn't true.

Read my results. I don't live in a blinding math-based world as you
do. In case you haven't yet figured it out, the computers on the top
of our necks are far more capable of figuring out mathematical and
all other problems than a man-made computer. Once you come to grips
with that, get back with me.

From a mathematical standpoint all of your play is equivalent to a
single session. It has to do with mathematical associativity. You
know associativity don't you (3+2+1 = 1+2+3)? What you said above

is pure fantasy.

And you're incorrect on that too. Put away the slide rule and live a
little. There's a whole world out there that's not math-based. Short
sessions all equate to one long session? Come on, you can do better
than that. What do you do when it snows or rains---calculate the
droplets and say "it's not complete because it may rain tomorrow
too"? And let's see your "math" answer this one: You look up into the
sky, and realize it must go on forever...or at least until it ends at
a wall or black hole. So what does the math calculate at that point--
how far does it all go on from there? Your lesson here is, not
EVERYTHING can be formulated with the slide of a rule or a punch of a
button. People are equipped to understand things far beyond the reach
of the math. that's what I've done in gambling.

I think that's what I just said. Or, doesn't one hand qualify as
short term in your mind? Now if you want to restate that as "All
hands won are due to luck" then I would disagree. This is when the
math becomes important.

Every single winning hand is due to luck and nothing else. That is
obvious. There is zero math involved in that occurence.

Skill has everthing to do with it and I know that. Your assertions
mean nothing. You like to focus on a single hand or, in this case a
single deal, that's not relevant. What is relevant is your skill
level across many hands.

You bunch events together because you aren't capable of looking at
them in any other way. Every single hand is an independent event. We
all know that. And they have no effect whatsoever on any other hand--
if any more are played.

Of course you do, anything that would make someone successful would
eliminate them as a potential victim of your scams.

That evaded the point that anyone who corrals their spouse into the
same habit as they have does have a true gambling sickness, and the
home would be far better off without it. I imagine yours falls into
that category or else you'd have addressed it?

>
Not on my part. I'm still waiting for any mathematical support for
your endless assertions.

You and your 'mathematical support'. If you have people willing to
put up with your continuing mathematical fantasies, God bless you and
them.

> >
I already gave you a mathematical proof. You love to skip over that
and get back to the unproveable assertions of wins/losses.

There is no such thing as mathematical proof. I'd like proof of play
results as I've provided to my publishers. Other than that, you can
say all you want about math this and math that--it means nothing to
anyone. You know that, but you just can't let go of that silly and
useless slide rule.

No come back? No reference to addiction? You must be getting tired.
Of course, there's nothing meaningful you can say (even though that
seldom stops you). I'm talking irrefutable facts. Not surprising a
scamster like you would want to skip over this.

Imagine living with you---or waking up in the same room as you in the
morning, after a night of snoring to the tune of ones & zeroes??
Robby the robot would be more exciting.....

> We're in different leagues.
> That's the biggest misconception you critics have, and it's all
> because you wear those expert-play blinders.

No blinders here. If you can show me mathematically sound evidence

supporting your position then I will agree with you.

Math this and math that again. Blah blah blah. Do you know how silly
you appear here, not providing answers other than "gee, the math
models & probability theories say it is possible, so I'll close my
mind to any other outcome because it MUST be so!"

I'll get to it later. It's Mother's Day today, and I have other
things to do. I know that concern isn't valid to a math geek and it
can't be calculated using any math model or long-term probability
theories, but here's an assertion for you: IT'S TRUE! I'm not
consumed by gambling and I have another life to live--actually,
several other interesting ones besides video poker. And unlike you, I
actually DO it. And if you receive my e-newsletter, you'll be seeing
my Mother's Day wishes go out that has nothing to do with video
poker. That should explain a little more about the differences
between you and I.

I think it's time to net out our positions. I will try to separate
opinions (assertions) from mathematically sounds principles.

First, let me define a new term. I'll call it "maximum play". It is
the selection of the best possible hold for any VP hand of a given
game for all possible dealt hands. I think we both can agree that
the "theory" behind maximum play is mathematically sound. This is
evident in that it only takes the standard mathematical operations:
addition, subtraction, multiplication and division the logical
operators > (greater than), < (less than) and = (equal) to compute
the return of any VP game. I also think we can agree that "maximum
play" yields returns greater than 100% for certain VP games.

Next, expert play strategy is the selection of the best hold for

any

given 5 card deal. There are 32 possible holds for any dealt hand.
Essentially, maximum play (defined above) requires using expert

play

strategy on every possible hand to achieve the maximum return.

Now I will define advantage play. Advantage play is the long term

use

of expert play strategy, allowing for some errors, that still

yields

returns greater than 100%. I think this is where we disagree. You
assert this is not possible, I assert it is posssible. Let's dig a
little deeper.

The next mathematical field required is statistics. Using

statistics

it is possible to compute a range of possible results from using
expert play strategy for a large number of hands. In other words,
statistics allows us to evaluate advantage play. This is where the
use of the term "long term" comes into play. Statistics can only be
used validly when dealing with large numbers. Terms such as

variance,

standard deviation and effective return (ER) are all statistical
values generated when examining a specific VP game.

I won't go any further at this time with the math at this time.

If you disagree with anything I've stated above, let's examine your
objections before going on.

Next, let's see if we can agree on our assertions.

You assert that advantage play in not possible for many reasons,

such

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...> wrote:

as interruptions, getting tired, etc. whereas, I assert that even
with these factors, advantage play is possible.

Dick

RR thinks you have done a great job defining your position. RR agrees with the math. "Long Term" is the fly in the ointment. Most players will never play enough hands in a lifetime to assure a "long term" results (though there are many who will achieve this since they live in LV and play every day for many hours). I would accept a minimum of a million hands as long term play. The vast majority of players are playing short term and in the short term anything can happen. For those players who do play enough hands to qualify as "long term" players, being humans, they will simply make mistakes. Very few if any can play that number of hands perfectly. The results achieved by a computer will be far greater than the results achieved by humans. Your math is sound for computers yet flawed for practically every human being. None the less, I agree with optimum play and strategy. RR believes it gives the player the best chance. That being said, I disagree with killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. The gurus have obviously decided there is much more money to be made by selling the secrets to VP success than by actually playing the games. Thus a few are being rewarded at the expense of many. The games are disappearing while those that will suffer financially, blindly worship the few that are not only killing the games but laughing all the way to the bank (Jean Scott's own words, not mine).
When the code was cracked, the word got out and it was a good thing. But greed being what it is, the gurus will not stop until the games are no longer available. Jean Scott is just one example of a greedy person who seeks fame and fortune at the expense of those who follow blindly and worship her as a god. Scott is a pox upon optimum play VP and the irony is that she knows nothing about the math. Scott started out as a simple English teacher who dug through the trash to find coupons to support her slot habit. I understand what drives Scott. I do not understand why others stand idly by while she does everything she can to destroy these positive expectation gaming opportunities. Scott and others of her ilk, are putting money in their bank accounts and taking money from all the other optimum players as the full pay opportunities disappear daily. Last year thousands of games disappeared. AS more people learn optimum strategy, more games will go until there are none with a positive expectation for the player. The results are obvious. Scott and a few others get the fame and fortune and her cult of worshippers and all other optimum VP players get the shaft.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: rgmustain
  To: FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 9:15 AM
  Subject: [FREEvpFREE] The basics

  I think it's time to net out our positions. I will try to separate
  opinions (assertions) from mathematically sounds principles.

  First, let me define a new term. I'll call it "maximum play". It is
  the selection of the best possible hold for any VP hand of a given
  game for all possible dealt hands. I think we both can agree that
  the "theory" behind maximum play is mathematically sound. This is
  evident in that it only takes the standard mathematical operations:
  addition, subtraction, multiplication and division the logical
  operators > (greater than), < (less than) and = (equal) to compute
  the return of any VP game. I also think we can agree that "maximum
  play" yields returns greater than 100% for certain VP games.

  Next, expert play strategy is the selection of the best hold for any
  given 5 card deal. There are 32 possible holds for any dealt hand.
  Essentially, maximum play (defined above) requires using expert play
  strategy on every possible hand to achieve the maximum return.

  Now I will define advantage play. Advantage play is the long term use
  of expert play strategy, allowing for some errors, that still yields
  returns greater than 100%. I think this is where we disagree. You
  assert this is not possible, I assert it is posssible. Let's dig a
  little deeper.

  The next mathematical field required is statistics. Using statistics
  it is possible to compute a range of possible results from using
  expert play strategy for a large number of hands. In other words,
  statistics allows us to evaluate advantage play. This is where the
  use of the term "long term" comes into play. Statistics can only be
  used validly when dealing with large numbers. Terms such as variance,
  standard deviation and effective return (ER) are all statistical
  values generated when examining a specific VP game.

  I won't go any further at this time with the math at this time.

  If you disagree with anything I've stated above, let's examine your
  objections before going on.

  Next, let's see if we can agree on our assertions.

  You assert that advantage play in not possible for many reasons, such
  as interruptions, getting tired, etc. whereas, I assert that even
  with these factors, advantage play is possible.

  Dick

  vpFREE Links: http://tinyurl.com/v9qq

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

First, let me define a new term. I'll call it "maximum play". It is
the selection of the best possible hold for any VP hand of a given
game for all possible dealt hands. I think we both can agree that
the "theory" behind maximum play is mathematically sound. I also
think we can agree that "maximum play" yields returns greater than
100% for certain VP games.

I agree.

Next, expert play strategy is the selection of the best hold for

any given 5 card deal.Essentially, maximum play (defined above)
requires using expert play strategy on every possible hand to achieve
the maximum return. Advantage play is the long term use

of expert play strategy, allowing for some errors, that still

yields returns greater than 100%. I think this is where we disagree.
You assert this is not possible, I assert it is posssible. Let's dig
a little deeper.

I agree, reserving however, my assertion on the effect of 'errors'.

The next mathematical field required is statistics. Using

statistics

it is possible to compute a range of possible results from using
expert play strategy for a large number of hands. In other words,
statistics allows us to evaluate advantage play. This is where the
use of the term "long term" comes into play. Statistics can only be
used validly when dealing with large numbers. Terms such as

variance,

standard deviation and effective return (ER) are all statistical
values generated when examining a specific VP game.

Yes, and this is what I mean when I say that the gurus who sell their
wares on video poker have turned the game into a math class--and have
in fact forgotten that they are gambling.

You assert that advantage play in not possible for many reasons,

such as interruptions, getting tired, etc. whereas, I assert that
even with these factors, advantage play is possible.

That's correct, but my assertion is not only based on what a very
many former long-term strategists turned short-term players have told
me---I have my own very expert-play experience to draw upon that
solidifies this position.

The math is not and never has been the issue. Since I play 90%-95% of
my hands computer-perfectly, that should be known. My strategy both
wavers from that at optimal times that I have developed (my 1700+
special plays) due to the presumption that we are playing to win
TODAY and not over any other amount of time (which we ALL really only
do when we play whether anyone disagrees or not)and it uses a
progression to counter any number of a series of in-session losing
streaks. Along with the fact that long-term strategy encourages
addiction by it's own definition of the methodology behind it's
reason for being, it requires players stay inside smoke-filled,
generally unhealthy casinos for long periods of time in order to
attain the arguable number of hands required to enter the so-called
long-term. Similarly, it encourages a serious addiction to the slot
club card, and casino promotions, in that people will go in and play
far more hours and risk far more money than they intended to--just to
get that trinket, praise or slot club card status they long for. But
it's all a moot point when we see the points about machine-removal
that Rastis brings up, because both that and the reasons behind their
demise is true.

RR, I agree with almost all of what you have stated. I understand
most players will never play enough to have the "long term"
advantage. In addition, most gamblers are not even motivated to learn
expert play strategy. Too much work. However, for those willing to
put in just a little time, they will see better results as
a "population" of gamblers (i.e. their total play will see the "long
term" advantage). Some of these gamblers will garner the benefits
therein.

As for Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. I'm not sure I agree with your position.
First of all, we live in a capitalistic system and they are simply
doing no more or less than anyone else trying to make a buck. You may
not like it, but the system has proved to be successful overall.

If all the advantage plays disappear I will spend more time on my
other recreational ventures (golf, tennis, bowling, etc).

Dick

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rasti$ P. Rulz" <vpvegas@c...>
wrote:

RR thinks you have done a great job defining your position. RR

agrees with the math. "Long Term" is the fly in the ointment. Most
players will never play enough hands in a lifetime to assure a "long
term" results (though there are many who will achieve this since they
live in LV and play every day for many hours). I would accept a
minimum of a million hands as long term play. The vast majority of
players are playing short term and in the short term anything can
happen. For those players who do play enough hands to qualify
as "long term" players, being humans, they will simply make
mistakes. Very few if any can play that number of hands perfectly.
The results achieved by a computer will be far greater than the
results achieved by humans. Your math is sound for computers yet
flawed for practically every human being. None the less, I agree
with optimum play and strategy. RR believes it gives the player the
best chance. That being said, I disagree with killing the goose that
lays the golden eggs. The gurus have obviously decided there is much
more money to be made by selling the secrets to VP success than by
actually playing the games. Thus a few are being rewarded at the
expense of many. The games are disappearing while those that will
suffer financially, blindly worship the few that are not only killing
the games but laughing all the way to the bank (Jean Scott's own
words, not mine).

When the code was cracked, the word got out and it was a good

thing. But greed being what it is, the gurus will not stop until the
games are no longer available. Jean Scott is just one example of a
greedy person who seeks fame and fortune at the expense of those who
follow blindly and worship her as a god. Scott is a pox upon optimum
play VP and the irony is that she knows nothing about the math.
Scott started out as a simple English teacher who dug through the
trash to find coupons to support her slot habit. I understand what
drives Scott. I do not understand why others stand idly by while she
does everything she can to destroy these positive expectation gaming
opportunities. Scott and others of her ilk, are putting money in
their bank accounts and taking money from all the other optimum
players as the full pay opportunities disappear daily. Last year
thousands of games disappeared. AS more people learn optimum
strategy, more games will go until there are none with a positive
expectation for the player. The results are obvious. Scott and a
few others get the fame and fortune and her cult of worshippers and
all other optimum VP players get the shaft.

I have several disagreements with what you just wrote. First, I've
heard far too often about how there's a certain small super-
knowledgeable, optimal-play crowd who supposedly know more than the
others, understand video poker better than the others, and are
willing to put in "the work" over and above all the others in order
to make it that way. That makes little sense. The crowd you allegedly
are included in leads to that conclusion. As Rastis mentioned, Jean
Scott has - by her own admission - absolutely NO knowledge of how
math works, and cannot explain anything about optimal play except as
in her own words, "I Win!" I Win!". So please explain how it is she
wins as she claims (and as I personally know she does not--which is
why she hates me so much) without knowing why? Further, can you
picture this attention-seeking/VIP loving/professional-wannabee
putting in ANY kind of work other than driving to and from as many
casinos as she can stay awake for and she has the remaining bankroll
for? Second, it is highly unlikely any of this secret crowd does
anything other than manufacture stories of winning with optimal play.
Why? Because no one has ever offered even the slightest method of
actual winning proof to anyone, AND they HAVE to say they win--or
else who would buy any of that junk they sell? Make sense yet?

The big problem with Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. that Rastis is talking
about also has to do with them pushing incomplete rationale to their
customers. Never do they tell anyone about the dangers of playing
long-term strategy. All they care about is making money off of people-
-whether it be from sales or teaching or charging for web access. It
stands to ultimate reason: IF THEY WIN LIKE THEY SAID THEY DID,
THEY'D HAVE ZERO NEED FOR OUR MONEY. That's why I charge for nothing,
I freely give my time to as many players as I can handle, I answer
every e-mail no matter how tedious it gets--without charge (unlike
Dancer and your friend Dan Paymar), and why it is refreshing for
people to see that someone such as me actually exists in the gaming
community. I have no problem with them making a living, but 'tell the
truth about that living'.

I'll take a line out of several of your responses: Do we really need
to know what you say your other activities are? A certain Phd. friend
of mine says a person will offer unnecessary information simply to
cover up a problem others may perceive he or she has based on an on-
going discussion. I think you know what that might be.

As for Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. I'm not sure I agree with your

position.

First of all, we live in a capitalistic system and they are simply
doing no more or less than anyone else trying to make a buck. You

may

not like it, but the system has proved to be successful overall.

If all the advantage plays disappear I will spend more time on my
other recreational ventures (golf, tennis, bowling, etc).

Dick

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rasti$ P. Rulz" <vpvegas@c...>
wrote:
> RR thinks you have done a great job defining your position. RR
agrees with the math. "Long Term" is the fly in the ointment. Most
players will never play enough hands in a lifetime to assure

a "long

term" results (though there are many who will achieve this since

they

live in LV and play every day for many hours). I would accept a
minimum of a million hands as long term play. The vast majority of
players are playing short term and in the short term anything can
happen. For those players who do play enough hands to qualify
as "long term" players, being humans, they will simply make
mistakes. Very few if any can play that number of hands perfectly.
The results achieved by a computer will be far greater than the
results achieved by humans. Your math is sound for computers yet
flawed for practically every human being. None the less, I agree
with optimum play and strategy. RR believes it gives the player the
best chance. That being said, I disagree with killing the goose

that

lays the golden eggs. The gurus have obviously decided there is

much

more money to be made by selling the secrets to VP success than by
actually playing the games. Thus a few are being rewarded at the
expense of many. The games are disappearing while those that will
suffer financially, blindly worship the few that are not only

killing

the games but laughing all the way to the bank (Jean Scott's own
words, not mine).
> When the code was cracked, the word got out and it was a good
thing. But greed being what it is, the gurus will not stop until

the

games are no longer available. Jean Scott is just one example of a
greedy person who seeks fame and fortune at the expense of those

who

follow blindly and worship her as a god. Scott is a pox upon

optimum

play VP and the irony is that she knows nothing about the math.
Scott started out as a simple English teacher who dug through the
trash to find coupons to support her slot habit. I understand what
drives Scott. I do not understand why others stand idly by while

she

does everything she can to destroy these positive expectation

gaming

···

opportunities. Scott and others of her ilk, are putting money in
their bank accounts and taking money from all the other optimum
players as the full pay opportunities disappear daily. Last year
thousands of games disappeared. AS more people learn optimum
strategy, more games will go until there are none with a positive
expectation for the player. The results are obvious. Scott and a
few others get the fame and fortune and her cult of worshippers and
all other optimum VP players get the shaft.

Well said Rob!! How people can argue with common sense, I'll never
know.

Along these lines, picked up Casino Player magazine lately? Damn
near every "columnist" that writes for the magazine is selling
something. Every issue is the same old rehashed crap from Tamburin,
Dancer, Scott, Curtis, Hughes, etc. EVERY one of them not only
points you to their website so that you hopefully buy some crap, but
probably 45-50% of the ads in the magazine are from the same
columnists!! You get doubly bombarded with advertising from so-
called "professional gamblers".

The latest atrocity, in my opinion, is the $695 blackjack card-
counting class from Tamburin. Sucker born every minute.

-Tom

I have several disagreements with what you just wrote. First, I've
heard far too often about how there's a certain small super-
knowledgeable, optimal-play crowd who supposedly know more than the
others, understand video poker better than the others, and are
willing to put in "the work" over and above all the others in order
to make it that way. That makes little sense. The crowd you

allegedly

are included in leads to that conclusion. As Rastis mentioned, Jean
Scott has - by her own admission - absolutely NO knowledge of how
math works, and cannot explain anything about optimal play except

as

in her own words, "I Win!" I Win!". So please explain how it is she
wins as she claims (and as I personally know she does not--which is
why she hates me so much) without knowing why? Further, can you
picture this attention-seeking/VIP loving/professional-wannabee
putting in ANY kind of work other than driving to and from as many
casinos as she can stay awake for and she has the remaining

bankroll

for? Second, it is highly unlikely any of this secret crowd does
anything other than manufacture stories of winning with optimal

play.

Why? Because no one has ever offered even the slightest method of
actual winning proof to anyone, AND they HAVE to say they win--or
else who would buy any of that junk they sell? Make sense yet?

The big problem with Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. that Rastis is talking
about also has to do with them pushing incomplete rationale to

their

customers. Never do they tell anyone about the dangers of playing
long-term strategy. All they care about is making money off of

people-

-whether it be from sales or teaching or charging for web access.

It

stands to ultimate reason: IF THEY WIN LIKE THEY SAID THEY DID,
THEY'D HAVE ZERO NEED FOR OUR MONEY. That's why I charge for

nothing,

I freely give my time to as many players as I can handle, I answer
every e-mail no matter how tedious it gets--without charge (unlike
Dancer and your friend Dan Paymar), and why it is refreshing for
people to see that someone such as me actually exists in the gaming
community. I have no problem with them making a living, but 'tell

the

truth about that living'.

I'll take a line out of several of your responses: Do we really

need

to know what you say your other activities are? A certain Phd.

friend

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:

of mine says a person will offer unnecessary information simply to
cover up a problem others may perceive he or she has based on an on-
going discussion. I think you know what that might be.

Rob, I have nothing more to add to this diatribe that I haven't
already written. This is way to typical of your rantings. You make
all kinds of assertions and provide absolutely no supporting
evidence. Do you really think anyone believes you? Especially given
the mean spirited way in which you refer to others.

Dick

PS. I will get back to the facts in a later post.

I have several disagreements with what you just wrote. First, I've
heard far too often about how there's a certain small super-
knowledgeable, optimal-play crowd who supposedly know more than the
others, understand video poker better than the others, and are
willing to put in "the work" over and above all the others in order
to make it that way. That makes little sense. The crowd you

allegedly

are included in leads to that conclusion. As Rastis mentioned, Jean
Scott has - by her own admission - absolutely NO knowledge of how
math works, and cannot explain anything about optimal play except

as

in her own words, "I Win!" I Win!". So please explain how it is she
wins as she claims (and as I personally know she does not--which is
why she hates me so much) without knowing why? Further, can you
picture this attention-seeking/VIP loving/professional-wannabee
putting in ANY kind of work other than driving to and from as many
casinos as she can stay awake for and she has the remaining

bankroll

for? Second, it is highly unlikely any of this secret crowd does
anything other than manufacture stories of winning with optimal

play.

Why? Because no one has ever offered even the slightest method of
actual winning proof to anyone, AND they HAVE to say they win--or
else who would buy any of that junk they sell? Make sense yet?

The big problem with Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. that Rastis is talking
about also has to do with them pushing incomplete rationale to

their

customers. Never do they tell anyone about the dangers of playing
long-term strategy. All they care about is making money off of

people-

-whether it be from sales or teaching or charging for web access.

It

stands to ultimate reason: IF THEY WIN LIKE THEY SAID THEY DID,
THEY'D HAVE ZERO NEED FOR OUR MONEY. That's why I charge for

nothing,

I freely give my time to as many players as I can handle, I answer
every e-mail no matter how tedious it gets--without charge (unlike
Dancer and your friend Dan Paymar), and why it is refreshing for
people to see that someone such as me actually exists in the gaming
community. I have no problem with them making a living, but 'tell

the

truth about that living'.

I'll take a line out of several of your responses: Do we really

need

to know what you say your other activities are? A certain Phd.

friend

of mine says a person will offer unnecessary information simply to
cover up a problem others may perceive he or she has based on an on-
going discussion. I think you know what that might be.

> As for Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. I'm not sure I agree with your
position.
> First of all, we live in a capitalistic system and they are

simply

> doing no more or less than anyone else trying to make a buck. You
may
> not like it, but the system has proved to be successful overall.
>
> If all the advantage plays disappear I will spend more time on my
> other recreational ventures (golf, tennis, bowling, etc).
>
> Dick
>
>
> --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rasti$ P. Rulz"

<vpvegas@c...>

> wrote:
> > RR thinks you have done a great job defining your position. RR
> agrees with the math. "Long Term" is the fly in the ointment.

Most

> players will never play enough hands in a lifetime to assure
a "long
> term" results (though there are many who will achieve this since
they
> live in LV and play every day for many hours). I would accept a
> minimum of a million hands as long term play. The vast majority

of

> players are playing short term and in the short term anything can
> happen. For those players who do play enough hands to qualify
> as "long term" players, being humans, they will simply make
> mistakes. Very few if any can play that number of hands

perfectly.

> The results achieved by a computer will be far greater than the
> results achieved by humans. Your math is sound for computers yet
> flawed for practically every human being. None the less, I agree
> with optimum play and strategy. RR believes it gives the player

the

> best chance. That being said, I disagree with killing the goose
that
> lays the golden eggs. The gurus have obviously decided there is
much
> more money to be made by selling the secrets to VP success than

by

> actually playing the games. Thus a few are being rewarded at the
> expense of many. The games are disappearing while those that

will

> suffer financially, blindly worship the few that are not only
killing
> the games but laughing all the way to the bank (Jean Scott's own
> words, not mine).
> > When the code was cracked, the word got out and it was a good
> thing. But greed being what it is, the gurus will not stop until
the
> games are no longer available. Jean Scott is just one example of

a

> greedy person who seeks fame and fortune at the expense of those
who
> follow blindly and worship her as a god. Scott is a pox upon
optimum
> play VP and the irony is that she knows nothing about the math.
> Scott started out as a simple English teacher who dug through the
> trash to find coupons to support her slot habit. I understand

what

> drives Scott. I do not understand why others stand idly by while
she
> does everything she can to destroy these positive expectation
gaming
> opportunities. Scott and others of her ilk, are putting money in
> their bank accounts and taking money from all the other optimum
> players as the full pay opportunities disappear daily. Last year
> thousands of games disappeared. AS more people learn optimum
> strategy, more games will go until there are none with a positive
> expectation for the player. The results are obvious. Scott and

a

> few others get the fame and fortune and her cult of worshippers

and

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:

> all other optimum VP players get the shaft.

Dick:

Your post reminds me of the way a politician reacts to common sense,
and what they do when asked to do something to support what they have
preached. I've continually asked you to provide this forum...right
here....with direct supporting rationale that would prove--or you may
submit the proof from any of these other members of your secret
society of winners--that you or any of them actually win from using
strictly long-term strategy. I'm not asking for anything more than
real proof--not practice, theory, probability, using math models,
algorythmic hocus pocus, or anything else. If you even approach how I
proved my play results to my publishers, I'll accept that. If you
cannot do that then please say so. There's no more need to double-
talk as if it's been taken right out of one of Dan Paymar's books. Be
clear and be thorough, because anything less will be a waste of
time.

Rob, I have nothing more to add to this diatribe that I haven't
already written. This is way to typical of your rantings. You make
all kinds of assertions and provide absolutely no supporting
evidence. Do you really think anyone believes you? Especially given
the mean spirited way in which you refer to others.

Dick

PS. I will get back to the facts in a later post.

> I have several disagreements with what you just wrote. First,

I've

> heard far too often about how there's a certain small super-
> knowledgeable, optimal-play crowd who supposedly know more than

the

> others, understand video poker better than the others, and are
> willing to put in "the work" over and above all the others in

order

> to make it that way. That makes little sense. The crowd you
allegedly
> are included in leads to that conclusion. As Rastis mentioned,

Jean

> Scott has - by her own admission - absolutely NO knowledge of how
> math works, and cannot explain anything about optimal play except
as
> in her own words, "I Win!" I Win!". So please explain how it is

she

> wins as she claims (and as I personally know she does not--which

is

> why she hates me so much) without knowing why? Further, can you
> picture this attention-seeking/VIP loving/professional-wannabee
> putting in ANY kind of work other than driving to and from as

many

> casinos as she can stay awake for and she has the remaining
bankroll
> for? Second, it is highly unlikely any of this secret crowd does
> anything other than manufacture stories of winning with optimal
play.
> Why? Because no one has ever offered even the slightest method of
> actual winning proof to anyone, AND they HAVE to say they win--or
> else who would buy any of that junk they sell? Make sense yet?
>
> The big problem with Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. that Rastis is talking
> about also has to do with them pushing incomplete rationale to
their
> customers. Never do they tell anyone about the dangers of playing
> long-term strategy. All they care about is making money off of
people-
> -whether it be from sales or teaching or charging for web access.
It
> stands to ultimate reason: IF THEY WIN LIKE THEY SAID THEY DID,
> THEY'D HAVE ZERO NEED FOR OUR MONEY. That's why I charge for
nothing,
> I freely give my time to as many players as I can handle, I

answer

> every e-mail no matter how tedious it gets--without charge

(unlike

> Dancer and your friend Dan Paymar), and why it is refreshing for
> people to see that someone such as me actually exists in the

gaming

> community. I have no problem with them making a living, but 'tell
the
> truth about that living'.
>
> I'll take a line out of several of your responses: Do we really
need
> to know what you say your other activities are? A certain Phd.
friend
> of mine says a person will offer unnecessary information simply

to

> cover up a problem others may perceive he or she has based on an

on-

> going discussion. I think you know what that might be.
>
> > As for Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. I'm not sure I agree with your
> position.
> > First of all, we live in a capitalistic system and they are
simply
> > doing no more or less than anyone else trying to make a buck.

You

> may
> > not like it, but the system has proved to be successful overall.
> >
> > If all the advantage plays disappear I will spend more time on

my

> > other recreational ventures (golf, tennis, bowling, etc).
> >
> > Dick
> >
> >
> > --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rasti$ P. Rulz"
<vpvegas@c...>
> > wrote:
> > > RR thinks you have done a great job defining your position.

RR

> > agrees with the math. "Long Term" is the fly in the ointment.
Most
> > players will never play enough hands in a lifetime to assure
> a "long
> > term" results (though there are many who will achieve this

since

> they
> > live in LV and play every day for many hours). I would accept a
> > minimum of a million hands as long term play. The vast

majority

of
> > players are playing short term and in the short term anything

can

> > happen. For those players who do play enough hands to qualify
> > as "long term" players, being humans, they will simply make
> > mistakes. Very few if any can play that number of hands
perfectly.
> > The results achieved by a computer will be far greater than the
> > results achieved by humans. Your math is sound for computers

yet

> > flawed for practically every human being. None the less, I

agree

> > with optimum play and strategy. RR believes it gives the player
the
> > best chance. That being said, I disagree with killing the

goose

> that
> > lays the golden eggs. The gurus have obviously decided there is
> much
> > more money to be made by selling the secrets to VP success than
by
> > actually playing the games. Thus a few are being rewarded at

the

> > expense of many. The games are disappearing while those that
will
> > suffer financially, blindly worship the few that are not only
> killing
> > the games but laughing all the way to the bank (Jean Scott's

own

> > words, not mine).
> > > When the code was cracked, the word got out and it was a good
> > thing. But greed being what it is, the gurus will not stop

until

> the
> > games are no longer available. Jean Scott is just one example

of

a
> > greedy person who seeks fame and fortune at the expense of

those

> who
> > follow blindly and worship her as a god. Scott is a pox upon
> optimum
> > play VP and the irony is that she knows nothing about the

math.

> > Scott started out as a simple English teacher who dug through

the

> > trash to find coupons to support her slot habit. I understand
what
> > drives Scott. I do not understand why others stand idly by

while

> she
> > does everything she can to destroy these positive expectation
> gaming
> > opportunities. Scott and others of her ilk, are putting money

in

> > their bank accounts and taking money from all the other optimum
> > players as the full pay opportunities disappear daily. Last

year

> > thousands of games disappeared. AS more people learn optimum
> > strategy, more games will go until there are none with a

positive

> > expectation for the player. The results are obvious. Scott

and

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...> wrote:

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:
a
> > few others get the fame and fortune and her cult of worshippers
and
> > all other optimum VP players get the shaft.

Casino Player is a waste of time to even go near, so I rarely read
it. Aside from the fact that I condemn it for being loaded with on-
line casino ads, I detest the way the Huntington Press crowd uses it
as a stepping stone for their vp and other junk for sale--with no
mention whatsoever of the dangers of blindly following their foolish
ways. In time, I will overtake all of their popularity combined, and
I will have done it all by not selling any trinkets whatsoever.
People respect the truth: As in "She wins all the time? Then why does
she want or need MY money!?"

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bonuspokergod"
<bonuspokergod@y...> wrote:

Well said Rob!! How people can argue with common sense, I'll never
know.

Along these lines, picked up Casino Player magazine lately? Damn
near every "columnist" that writes for the magazine is selling
something. Every issue is the same old rehashed crap from

Tamburin,

Dancer, Scott, Curtis, Hughes, etc. EVERY one of them not only
points you to their website so that you hopefully buy some crap,

but

probably 45-50% of the ads in the magazine are from the same
columnists!! You get doubly bombarded with advertising from so-
called "professional gamblers".

The latest atrocity, in my opinion, is the $695 blackjack card-
counting class from Tamburin. Sucker born every minute.

-Tom

> I have several disagreements with what you just wrote. First,

I've

> heard far too often about how there's a certain small super-
> knowledgeable, optimal-play crowd who supposedly know more than

the

> others, understand video poker better than the others, and are
> willing to put in "the work" over and above all the others in

order

> to make it that way. That makes little sense. The crowd you
allegedly
> are included in leads to that conclusion. As Rastis mentioned,

Jean

> Scott has - by her own admission - absolutely NO knowledge of how
> math works, and cannot explain anything about optimal play except
as
> in her own words, "I Win!" I Win!". So please explain how it is

she

> wins as she claims (and as I personally know she does not--which

is

> why she hates me so much) without knowing why? Further, can you
> picture this attention-seeking/VIP loving/professional-wannabee
> putting in ANY kind of work other than driving to and from as

many

> casinos as she can stay awake for and she has the remaining
bankroll
> for? Second, it is highly unlikely any of this secret crowd does
> anything other than manufacture stories of winning with optimal
play.
> Why? Because no one has ever offered even the slightest method of
> actual winning proof to anyone, AND they HAVE to say they win--or
> else who would buy any of that junk they sell? Make sense yet?
>
> The big problem with Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. that Rastis is talking
> about also has to do with them pushing incomplete rationale to
their
> customers. Never do they tell anyone about the dangers of playing
> long-term strategy. All they care about is making money off of
people-
> -whether it be from sales or teaching or charging for web access.
It
> stands to ultimate reason: IF THEY WIN LIKE THEY SAID THEY DID,
> THEY'D HAVE ZERO NEED FOR OUR MONEY. That's why I charge for
nothing,
> I freely give my time to as many players as I can handle, I

answer

> every e-mail no matter how tedious it gets--without charge

(unlike

> Dancer and your friend Dan Paymar), and why it is refreshing for
> people to see that someone such as me actually exists in the

gaming

> community. I have no problem with them making a living, but 'tell
the
> truth about that living'.
>
> I'll take a line out of several of your responses: Do we really
need
> to know what you say your other activities are? A certain Phd.
friend
> of mine says a person will offer unnecessary information simply

to

> cover up a problem others may perceive he or she has based on an

on-

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:
> going discussion. I think you know what that might be.

Rob,

I can turn around and say the same thing back to you. Please give me
absolute proof that you have made money playing games that play back
less than 100% and using non-expert play strategy. By the way, bank
account statements don't count. You must have certifiable evidence
that the machines you were playing were < 100% payback. Otherwise,
you are just proving advantage play DOES work. Come on, Rob, give me
the proof.

As I've said many times there is no such thing as proof of success.
Anyone can say anything they want over an internet forum. I've said
I've made a profit. You've said you've made a profit. You've asserted
that yours is proof and mine is not. What a bunch of malarky.

The ONLY real way to determine anyones potential for success is
through the math. Unlike you Rob, the math doesn't lie.

Dick

Dick:

Your post reminds me of the way a politician reacts to common

sense,

and what they do when asked to do something to support what they

have

preached. I've continually asked you to provide this forum...right
here....with direct supporting rationale that would prove--or you

may

submit the proof from any of these other members of your secret
society of winners--that you or any of them actually win from using
strictly long-term strategy. I'm not asking for anything more than
real proof--not practice, theory, probability, using math models,
algorythmic hocus pocus, or anything else. If you even approach how

I

proved my play results to my publishers, I'll accept that. If you
cannot do that then please say so. There's no more need to double-
talk as if it's been taken right out of one of Dan Paymar's books.

Be

clear and be thorough, because anything less will be a waste of
time.

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...>

wrote:

> Rob, I have nothing more to add to this diatribe that I haven't
> already written. This is way to typical of your rantings. You

make

> all kinds of assertions and provide absolutely no supporting
> evidence. Do you really think anyone believes you? Especially

given

> the mean spirited way in which you refer to others.
>
> Dick
>
> PS. I will get back to the facts in a later post.
>
>
> > I have several disagreements with what you just wrote. First,
I've
> > heard far too often about how there's a certain small super-
> > knowledgeable, optimal-play crowd who supposedly know more than
the
> > others, understand video poker better than the others, and are
> > willing to put in "the work" over and above all the others in
order
> > to make it that way. That makes little sense. The crowd you
> allegedly
> > are included in leads to that conclusion. As Rastis mentioned,
Jean
> > Scott has - by her own admission - absolutely NO knowledge of

how

> > math works, and cannot explain anything about optimal play

except

> as
> > in her own words, "I Win!" I Win!". So please explain how it is
she
> > wins as she claims (and as I personally know she does not--

which

is
> > why she hates me so much) without knowing why? Further, can you
> > picture this attention-seeking/VIP loving/professional-wannabee
> > putting in ANY kind of work other than driving to and from as
many
> > casinos as she can stay awake for and she has the remaining
> bankroll
> > for? Second, it is highly unlikely any of this secret crowd

does

> > anything other than manufacture stories of winning with optimal
> play.
> > Why? Because no one has ever offered even the slightest method

of

> > actual winning proof to anyone, AND they HAVE to say they win--

or

> > else who would buy any of that junk they sell? Make sense yet?
> >
> > The big problem with Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. that Rastis is

talking

> > about also has to do with them pushing incomplete rationale to
> their
> > customers. Never do they tell anyone about the dangers of

playing

> > long-term strategy. All they care about is making money off of
> people-
> > -whether it be from sales or teaching or charging for web

access.

> It
> > stands to ultimate reason: IF THEY WIN LIKE THEY SAID THEY DID,
> > THEY'D HAVE ZERO NEED FOR OUR MONEY. That's why I charge for
> nothing,
> > I freely give my time to as many players as I can handle, I
answer
> > every e-mail no matter how tedious it gets--without charge
(unlike
> > Dancer and your friend Dan Paymar), and why it is refreshing

for

> > people to see that someone such as me actually exists in the
gaming
> > community. I have no problem with them making a living,

but 'tell

> the
> > truth about that living'.
> >
> > I'll take a line out of several of your responses: Do we really
> need
> > to know what you say your other activities are? A certain Phd.
> friend
> > of mine says a person will offer unnecessary information simply
to
> > cover up a problem others may perceive he or she has based on

an

on-
> > going discussion. I think you know what that might be.
> >
> > > As for Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. I'm not sure I agree with your
> > position.
> > > First of all, we live in a capitalistic system and they are
> simply
> > > doing no more or less than anyone else trying to make a buck.
You
> > may
> > > not like it, but the system has proved to be successful

overall.

> > >
> > > If all the advantage plays disappear I will spend more time

on

my
> > > other recreational ventures (golf, tennis, bowling, etc).
> > >
> > > Dick
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rasti$ P. Rulz"
> <vpvegas@c...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > RR thinks you have done a great job defining your

position.

RR
> > > agrees with the math. "Long Term" is the fly in the

ointment.

> Most
> > > players will never play enough hands in a lifetime to assure
> > a "long
> > > term" results (though there are many who will achieve this
since
> > they
> > > live in LV and play every day for many hours). I would accept

a

> > > minimum of a million hands as long term play. The vast
majority
> of
> > > players are playing short term and in the short term anything
can
> > > happen. For those players who do play enough hands to

qualify

> > > as "long term" players, being humans, they will simply make
> > > mistakes. Very few if any can play that number of hands
> perfectly.
> > > The results achieved by a computer will be far greater than

the

> > > results achieved by humans. Your math is sound for computers
yet
> > > flawed for practically every human being. None the less, I
agree
> > > with optimum play and strategy. RR believes it gives the

player

> the
> > > best chance. That being said, I disagree with killing the
goose
> > that
> > > lays the golden eggs. The gurus have obviously decided there

is

> > much
> > > more money to be made by selling the secrets to VP success

than

> by
> > > actually playing the games. Thus a few are being rewarded at
the
> > > expense of many. The games are disappearing while those that
> will
> > > suffer financially, blindly worship the few that are not only
> > killing
> > > the games but laughing all the way to the bank (Jean Scott's
own
> > > words, not mine).
> > > > When the code was cracked, the word got out and it was a

good

> > > thing. But greed being what it is, the gurus will not stop
until
> > the
> > > games are no longer available. Jean Scott is just one

example

of
> a
> > > greedy person who seeks fame and fortune at the expense of
those
> > who
> > > follow blindly and worship her as a god. Scott is a pox upon
> > optimum
> > > play VP and the irony is that she knows nothing about the
math.
> > > Scott started out as a simple English teacher who dug through
the
> > > trash to find coupons to support her slot habit. I understand
> what
> > > drives Scott. I do not understand why others stand idly by
while
> > she
> > > does everything she can to destroy these positive expectation
> > gaming
> > > opportunities. Scott and others of her ilk, are putting money
in
> > > their bank accounts and taking money from all the other

optimum

> > > players as the full pay opportunities disappear daily. Last
year
> > > thousands of games disappeared. AS more people learn optimum
> > > strategy, more games will go until there are none with a
positive
> > > expectation for the player. The results are obvious. Scott
and
> a
> > > few others get the fame and fortune and her cult of

worshippers

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:

> --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:
> and
> > > all other optimum VP players get the shaft.

You're still ducking the question....as you know. That's not what I
would expect from a scientific mind.

Absolute proof is given only when absilutely necessary. In my case, I
had 2 very skeptical publishers, and after 25 or so trips, I gave
them that proof. And, they witnessed one of my play sessions. But it
ended almost as quickly as it started at Terrible's with a dollar RF
on 8/5 BP.

In this case there's little to be gained, and since I rarely play
single-play strategy these days and have moved all my money locally,
it wouldn't work anyway. But if you think I go out and play only 100%
+ games over a dollar, then please tell me where they are. On dollars
I always play 10/7 if it's available where I play--and given the
resorts I frequent, they usually don't have it. There's a few casinos
with >100% around, but it's rare. In any case, I almost always play
BP--whether it be 8/5, 7/5, or 6/5. Since I usually win, I don't need
your positive games anyway. If you don't believe me then so be it.

Rob,

I can turn around and say the same thing back to you. Please give

me

absolute proof that you have made money playing games that play

back

less than 100% and using non-expert play strategy. By the way, bank
account statements don't count. You must have certifiable evidence
that the machines you were playing were < 100% payback. Otherwise,
you are just proving advantage play DOES work. Come on, Rob, give

me

the proof.

As I've said many times there is no such thing as proof of success.
Anyone can say anything they want over an internet forum. I've said
I've made a profit. You've said you've made a profit. You've

asserted

that yours is proof and mine is not. What a bunch of malarky.

The ONLY real way to determine anyones potential for success is
through the math. Unlike you Rob, the math doesn't lie.

Dick

> Dick:
>
> Your post reminds me of the way a politician reacts to common
sense,
> and what they do when asked to do something to support what they
have
> preached. I've continually asked you to provide this

forum...right

> here....with direct supporting rationale that would prove--or you
may
> submit the proof from any of these other members of your secret
> society of winners--that you or any of them actually win from

using

> strictly long-term strategy. I'm not asking for anything more

than

> real proof--not practice, theory, probability, using math models,
> algorythmic hocus pocus, or anything else. If you even approach

how

I
> proved my play results to my publishers, I'll accept that. If you
> cannot do that then please say so. There's no more need to double-
> talk as if it's been taken right out of one of Dan Paymar's

books.

Be
> clear and be thorough, because anything less will be a waste of
> time.
>
> --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...>
wrote:
> > Rob, I have nothing more to add to this diatribe that I haven't
> > already written. This is way to typical of your rantings. You
make
> > all kinds of assertions and provide absolutely no supporting
> > evidence. Do you really think anyone believes you? Especially
given
> > the mean spirited way in which you refer to others.
> >
> > Dick
> >
> > PS. I will get back to the facts in a later post.
> >
> >
> > --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...>

wrote:

> > > I have several disagreements with what you just wrote. First,
> I've
> > > heard far too often about how there's a certain small super-
> > > knowledgeable, optimal-play crowd who supposedly know more

than

> the
> > > others, understand video poker better than the others, and

are

> > > willing to put in "the work" over and above all the others in
> order
> > > to make it that way. That makes little sense. The crowd you
> > allegedly
> > > are included in leads to that conclusion. As Rastis

mentioned,

> Jean
> > > Scott has - by her own admission - absolutely NO knowledge of
how
> > > math works, and cannot explain anything about optimal play
except
> > as
> > > in her own words, "I Win!" I Win!". So please explain how it

is

> she
> > > wins as she claims (and as I personally know she does not--
which
> is
> > > why she hates me so much) without knowing why? Further, can

you

> > > picture this attention-seeking/VIP loving/professional-

wannabee

> > > putting in ANY kind of work other than driving to and from as
> many
> > > casinos as she can stay awake for and she has the remaining
> > bankroll
> > > for? Second, it is highly unlikely any of this secret crowd
does
> > > anything other than manufacture stories of winning with

optimal

> > play.
> > > Why? Because no one has ever offered even the slightest

method

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...> wrote:

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:
of
> > > actual winning proof to anyone, AND they HAVE to say they win-

-

or
> > > else who would buy any of that junk they sell? Make sense yet?
> > >
> > > The big problem with Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. that Rastis is
talking
> > > about also has to do with them pushing incomplete rationale

to

> > their
> > > customers. Never do they tell anyone about the dangers of
playing
> > > long-term strategy. All they care about is making money off

of

> > people-
> > > -whether it be from sales or teaching or charging for web
access.
> > It
> > > stands to ultimate reason: IF THEY WIN LIKE THEY SAID THEY

DID,

> > > THEY'D HAVE ZERO NEED FOR OUR MONEY. That's why I charge for
> > nothing,
> > > I freely give my time to as many players as I can handle, I
> answer
> > > every e-mail no matter how tedious it gets--without charge
> (unlike
> > > Dancer and your friend Dan Paymar), and why it is refreshing
for
> > > people to see that someone such as me actually exists in the
> gaming
> > > community. I have no problem with them making a living,
but 'tell
> > the
> > > truth about that living'.
> > >
> > > I'll take a line out of several of your responses: Do we

really

> > need
> > > to know what you say your other activities are? A certain

Phd.

> > friend
> > > of mine says a person will offer unnecessary information

simply

> to
> > > cover up a problem others may perceive he or she has based on
an
> on-
> > > going discussion. I think you know what that might be.
> > >
> > > > As for Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. I'm not sure I agree with your
> > > position.
> > > > First of all, we live in a capitalistic system and they are
> > simply
> > > > doing no more or less than anyone else trying to make a

buck.

> You
> > > may
> > > > not like it, but the system has proved to be successful
overall.
> > > >
> > > > If all the advantage plays disappear I will spend more time
on
> my
> > > > other recreational ventures (golf, tennis, bowling, etc).
> > > >
> > > > Dick
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rasti$ P. Rulz"
> > <vpvegas@c...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > RR thinks you have done a great job defining your
position.
> RR
> > > > agrees with the math. "Long Term" is the fly in the
ointment.
> > Most
> > > > players will never play enough hands in a lifetime to

assure

> > > a "long
> > > > term" results (though there are many who will achieve this
> since
> > > they
> > > > live in LV and play every day for many hours). I would

accept

a
> > > > minimum of a million hands as long term play. The vast
> majority
> > of
> > > > players are playing short term and in the short term

anything

> can
> > > > happen. For those players who do play enough hands to
qualify
> > > > as "long term" players, being humans, they will simply make
> > > > mistakes. Very few if any can play that number of hands
> > perfectly.
> > > > The results achieved by a computer will be far greater than
the
> > > > results achieved by humans. Your math is sound for

computers

> yet
> > > > flawed for practically every human being. None the less, I
> agree
> > > > with optimum play and strategy. RR believes it gives the
player
> > the
> > > > best chance. That being said, I disagree with killing the
> goose
> > > that
> > > > lays the golden eggs. The gurus have obviously decided

there

is
> > > much
> > > > more money to be made by selling the secrets to VP success
than
> > by
> > > > actually playing the games. Thus a few are being rewarded

at

> the
> > > > expense of many. The games are disappearing while those

that

> > will
> > > > suffer financially, blindly worship the few that are not

only

> > > killing
> > > > the games but laughing all the way to the bank (Jean

Scott's

> own
> > > > words, not mine).
> > > > > When the code was cracked, the word got out and it was a
good
> > > > thing. But greed being what it is, the gurus will not stop
> until
> > > the
> > > > games are no longer available. Jean Scott is just one
example
> of
> > a
> > > > greedy person who seeks fame and fortune at the expense of
> those
> > > who
> > > > follow blindly and worship her as a god. Scott is a pox

upon

> > > optimum
> > > > play VP and the irony is that she knows nothing about the
> math.
> > > > Scott started out as a simple English teacher who dug

through

> the
> > > > trash to find coupons to support her slot habit. I

understand

> > what
> > > > drives Scott. I do not understand why others stand idly by
> while
> > > she
> > > > does everything she can to destroy these positive

expectation

> > > gaming
> > > > opportunities. Scott and others of her ilk, are putting

money

> in
> > > > their bank accounts and taking money from all the other
optimum
> > > > players as the full pay opportunities disappear daily.

Last

> year
> > > > thousands of games disappeared. AS more people learn

optimum

> > > > strategy, more games will go until there are none with a
> positive
> > > > expectation for the player. The results are obvious.

Scott

> and
> > a
> > > > few others get the fame and fortune and her cult of
worshippers
> > and
> > > > all other optimum VP players get the shaft.

I have never questioned the right of these capitalists to make a buck. Certainly they are not heroes to those that would like to continue to enjoy the benefits of FPVP. In fact they are killing the games while "laughing all the way to the bank". They are the enemy and will be treated as such by RR. I will leave it to morons and fools to support and encourage these greedy capitalists in their venture to destroy full pay video poker. The really sad part is that they could make more money by keeping their mouths shut and actually playing the games. But that involves too much work and would hasten the demise of their fleeting "fame". It's so much easier to write the same article, book or post and give the same speech over and over and over and over and over again...until all that remains is a Queen without subjects to worship her and a Dancer without a dance to attend.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: rgmustain
  To: FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:30 PM
  Subject: [FREEvpFREE] Re: The basics

  RR, I agree with almost all of what you have stated. I understand
  most players will never play enough to have the "long term"
  advantage. In addition, most gamblers are not even motivated to learn
  expert play strategy. Too much work. However, for those willing to
  put in just a little time, they will see better results as
  a "population" of gamblers (i.e. their total play will see the "long
  term" advantage). Some of these gamblers will garner the benefits
  therein.

  As for Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. I'm not sure I agree with your position.
  First of all, we live in a capitalistic system and they are simply
  doing no more or less than anyone else trying to make a buck. You may
  not like it, but the system has proved to be successful overall.

  If all the advantage plays disappear I will spend more time on my
  other recreational ventures (golf, tennis, bowling, etc).

  Dick

  --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rasti$ P. Rulz" <vpvegas@c...>
  wrote:
  > RR thinks you have done a great job defining your position. RR
  agrees with the math. "Long Term" is the fly in the ointment. Most
  players will never play enough hands in a lifetime to assure a "long
  term" results (though there are many who will achieve this since they
  live in LV and play every day for many hours). I would accept a
  minimum of a million hands as long term play. The vast majority of
  players are playing short term and in the short term anything can
  happen. For those players who do play enough hands to qualify
  as "long term" players, being humans, they will simply make
  mistakes. Very few if any can play that number of hands perfectly.
  The results achieved by a computer will be far greater than the
  results achieved by humans. Your math is sound for computers yet
  flawed for practically every human being. None the less, I agree
  with optimum play and strategy. RR believes it gives the player the
  best chance. That being said, I disagree with killing the goose that
  lays the golden eggs. The gurus have obviously decided there is much
  more money to be made by selling the secrets to VP success than by
  actually playing the games. Thus a few are being rewarded at the
  expense of many. The games are disappearing while those that will
  suffer financially, blindly worship the few that are not only killing
  the games but laughing all the way to the bank (Jean Scott's own
  words, not mine).
  > When the code was cracked, the word got out and it was a good
  thing. But greed being what it is, the gurus will not stop until the
  games are no longer available. Jean Scott is just one example of a
  greedy person who seeks fame and fortune at the expense of those who
  follow blindly and worship her as a god. Scott is a pox upon optimum
  play VP and the irony is that she knows nothing about the math.
  Scott started out as a simple English teacher who dug through the
  trash to find coupons to support her slot habit. I understand what
  drives Scott. I do not understand why others stand idly by while she
  does everything she can to destroy these positive expectation gaming
  opportunities. Scott and others of her ilk, are putting money in
  their bank accounts and taking money from all the other optimum
  players as the full pay opportunities disappear daily. Last year
  thousands of games disappeared. AS more people learn optimum
  strategy, more games will go until there are none with a positive
  expectation for the player. The results are obvious. Scott and a
  few others get the fame and fortune and her cult of worshippers and
  all other optimum VP players get the shaft.

  vpFREE Links: http://tinyurl.com/v9qq

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Let's all agree that RR & RS are not only mean, they are ugly too. Queen Jean on the other hand is the nicest person ever to walk the earth since Jesus. The fact is, Jean Scott and other capitalists are making money directly by selling in every manner they can contrive, information that is in fact resulting in almost daily downgrades of full pay video poker. RR & RS are not. That is really all you need to know. Continue to drink the Kool Aide and get you bowling game in shape. The end is near. And Jean Scott is as responsible as any person that has ever walked the earth for the demise of full pay video poker. She is also the most public and relentless in the marketing of SELF. We all have other hobbies, but the death of full pay video poker is the only one we can lay directly at the feet of Jean Scott, Bob Dancer and Skip Hughes. If those three would just go away, full pay would live to see many more days. But they ain't going and the money they make comes from your VP take.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: rgmustain
  To: FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 8:10 AM
  Subject: [FREEvpFREE] Re: The basics

  Rob, I have nothing more to add to this diatribe that I haven't
  already written. This is way to typical of your rantings. You make
  all kinds of assertions and provide absolutely no supporting
  evidence. Do you really think anyone believes you? Especially given
  the mean spirited way in which you refer to others.

  Dick

  PS. I will get back to the facts in a later post.

  --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:
  > I have several disagreements with what you just wrote. First, I've
  > heard far too often about how there's a certain small super-
  > knowledgeable, optimal-play crowd who supposedly know more than the
  > others, understand video poker better than the others, and are
  > willing to put in "the work" over and above all the others in order
  > to make it that way. That makes little sense. The crowd you
  allegedly
  > are included in leads to that conclusion. As Rastis mentioned, Jean
  > Scott has - by her own admission - absolutely NO knowledge of how
  > math works, and cannot explain anything about optimal play except
  as
  > in her own words, "I Win!" I Win!". So please explain how it is she
  > wins as she claims (and as I personally know she does not--which is
  > why she hates me so much) without knowing why? Further, can you
  > picture this attention-seeking/VIP loving/professional-wannabee
  > putting in ANY kind of work other than driving to and from as many
  > casinos as she can stay awake for and she has the remaining
  bankroll
  > for? Second, it is highly unlikely any of this secret crowd does
  > anything other than manufacture stories of winning with optimal
  play.
  > Why? Because no one has ever offered even the slightest method of
  > actual winning proof to anyone, AND they HAVE to say they win--or
  > else who would buy any of that junk they sell? Make sense yet?
  >
  > The big problem with Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. that Rastis is talking
  > about also has to do with them pushing incomplete rationale to
  their
  > customers. Never do they tell anyone about the dangers of playing
  > long-term strategy. All they care about is making money off of
  people-
  > -whether it be from sales or teaching or charging for web access.
  It
  > stands to ultimate reason: IF THEY WIN LIKE THEY SAID THEY DID,
  > THEY'D HAVE ZERO NEED FOR OUR MONEY. That's why I charge for
  nothing,
  > I freely give my time to as many players as I can handle, I answer
  > every e-mail no matter how tedious it gets--without charge (unlike
  > Dancer and your friend Dan Paymar), and why it is refreshing for
  > people to see that someone such as me actually exists in the gaming
  > community. I have no problem with them making a living, but 'tell
  the
  > truth about that living'.
  >
  > I'll take a line out of several of your responses: Do we really
  need
  > to know what you say your other activities are? A certain Phd.
  friend
  > of mine says a person will offer unnecessary information simply to
  > cover up a problem others may perceive he or she has based on an on-
  > going discussion. I think you know what that might be.
  >
  > > As for Jean, Bob, Skip, etc. I'm not sure I agree with your
  > position.
  > > First of all, we live in a capitalistic system and they are
  simply
  > > doing no more or less than anyone else trying to make a buck. You
  > may
  > > not like it, but the system has proved to be successful overall.
  > >
  > > If all the advantage plays disappear I will spend more time on my
  > > other recreational ventures (golf, tennis, bowling, etc).
  > >
  > > Dick
  > >
  > >
  > > --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rasti$ P. Rulz"
  <vpvegas@c...>
  > > wrote:
  > > > RR thinks you have done a great job defining your position. RR
  > > agrees with the math. "Long Term" is the fly in the ointment.
  Most
  > > players will never play enough hands in a lifetime to assure
  > a "long
  > > term" results (though there are many who will achieve this since
  > they
  > > live in LV and play every day for many hours). I would accept a
  > > minimum of a million hands as long term play. The vast majority
  of
  > > players are playing short term and in the short term anything can
  > > happen. For those players who do play enough hands to qualify
  > > as "long term" players, being humans, they will simply make
  > > mistakes. Very few if any can play that number of hands
  perfectly.
  > > The results achieved by a computer will be far greater than the
  > > results achieved by humans. Your math is sound for computers yet
  > > flawed for practically every human being. None the less, I agree
  > > with optimum play and strategy. RR believes it gives the player
  the
  > > best chance. That being said, I disagree with killing the goose
  > that
  > > lays the golden eggs. The gurus have obviously decided there is
  > much
  > > more money to be made by selling the secrets to VP success than
  by
  > > actually playing the games. Thus a few are being rewarded at the
  > > expense of many. The games are disappearing while those that
  will
  > > suffer financially, blindly worship the few that are not only
  > killing
  > > the games but laughing all the way to the bank (Jean Scott's own
  > > words, not mine).
  > > > When the code was cracked, the word got out and it was a good
  > > thing. But greed being what it is, the gurus will not stop until
  > the
  > > games are no longer available. Jean Scott is just one example of
  a
  > > greedy person who seeks fame and fortune at the expense of those
  > who
  > > follow blindly and worship her as a god. Scott is a pox upon
  > optimum
  > > play VP and the irony is that she knows nothing about the math.
  > > Scott started out as a simple English teacher who dug through the
  > > trash to find coupons to support her slot habit. I understand
  what
  > > drives Scott. I do not understand why others stand idly by while
  > she
  > > does everything she can to destroy these positive expectation
  > gaming
  > > opportunities. Scott and others of her ilk, are putting money in
  > > their bank accounts and taking money from all the other optimum
  > > players as the full pay opportunities disappear daily. Last year
  > > thousands of games disappeared. AS more people learn optimum
  > > strategy, more games will go until there are none with a positive
  > > expectation for the player. The results are obvious. Scott and
  a
  > > few others get the fame and fortune and her cult of worshippers
  and
  > > all other optimum VP players get the shaft.

  vpFREE Links: http://tinyurl.com/v9qq

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