vpFREE2 Forums

Silverton January Promotion

#1

I just picked up the rules for the January drawings at Silverton and there is a section which amazes me, one that I have never seen in writing. I am copying it word for word:

<<The Promotion shall be open only to registered Silverton Discover Club account members. The management of the Silverton reserves the right to determine that any SDC account member who is deemed in the sole and absolute discretion of the management of the Silverton to be an "advantage player," [their punctuation] to be ineligible to participate in the Promotion, or to have his ability to participate in the Promotion otherwise limited. Any such "advantage player" who is already a Silverton Discover Club member prior to the commencement of the Promotion, will be notified by the Silverton prior to the commencement of the Promotion of any such ineligibility or limitation determination. Otherwise, any such "advantage player" will be notified by the Silverton of any ineligibility or limitation determination as soon as possible after such a determination is made.>>

In my opinion this is an unwise move by the casino management because of its negative PR effect. On these forums we have never been able to exactly come to a consensus what an "advantage player" is. So what does Silverton consider as one? Silverton has only a handful of 100+ machines and they are mostly (or all?) on the quarter level. (FPDW and FPDB) It would seem that a quarter player could not earn enough drawing tickets to be a "threat."

Those that are playing at higher levels may be able to play enough to "flood" the drum, but I would think the casino would like that - because they are playing negative-expectation games.

I just can't understand why Silverton thought it necessary to put this item in the rules???

···

________________
Jean $¢ott
The much-expanded new edition of my tax book,
including a new chapter on poker, is now available
to order at my Web site, http://queenofcomps.com/.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Jean, I find this written "rule" to be absolutely astounding!

Have you, or anyone else that you know, been advised of your
ineligibilty for the drawings?

~Babe~

···

=========================================
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

I just picked up the rules for the January drawings at Silverton and
there is a section which amazes me, one that I have never seen in
writing. I am copying it word for word:

<<The Promotion shall be open only to registered Silverton Discover
Club account members. The management of the Silverton reserves the
right to determine that any SDC account member who is deemed in the
sole and absolute discretion of the management of the Silverton to
be an "advantage player," [their punctuation] to be ineligible to
participate in the Promotion, or to have his ability to participate
in the Promotion otherwise limited. Any such "advantage player" who
is already a Silverton Discover Club member prior to the
commencement of the Promotion, will be notified by the Silverton
prior to the commencement of the Promotion of any such ineligibility
or limitation determination. Otherwise, any such "advantage player"
will be notified by the Silverton of any ineligibility or limitation
determination as soon as possible after such a determination is
made.>>

#3

... In my opinion this is an unwise move by the casino management

because of its negative PR effect....

You're being much too nice. I would classify this in the "crazy-
stupid move" category, for a couple of reasons.

For one thing, I'm surprised that a casino would even admit in
writing to the general public that such a thing as an "advantage
player" exists at all. This contradicts the myth perpetuated by the
casino industry that might be paraphrased as...

"Casino gaming is really just another form of entertainment, but the
casino always wins in the end. Anyone who thinks they can beat the
casino in the long run is self-delusional."

This myth is so widely believed by the general public that many
otherwise intelligent casino players won't even investigate subjects
like card counting and expert VP play, figuring that these are just
more losing systems for suckers, because "no one can really beat the
casinos". (Live poker may be an exception to this rule, mainly
because the public has been beat over the head recently with
televised poker events showing winning poker players.)

The other main reason this is a bad move is, as you say, the negative
PR effect - especially the seemingly arbitrary exclusion by the
casino of whoever they determine to be an "advantage player". I
assume they provided no definition in their mailer for the
term "advantage player". I can just picture a whole bunch of squares
lining up at the players club to check on whether or not they
are "advantage players" before they start playing in the promotion.
What is the casino going to tell them? "No, don't worry, you're just
a regular sucker like most everyone else".

Casinos are getter ever closer to posting big signs by the front door
which say "no thinking allowed".

EE

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

#4

........I can just picture a whole bunch of squares lining up at the
players club to check on whether or not they are "advantage players"
before they start playing in the promotion.............

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "eecounter" <eecounter@...> wrote:

==================================================
Right on, EE. And, how about the ones who, when told that they're not
barred from the drawings, complain vociferously, "Whadda mean I'm NOT
an AP!!!!

~Babe~

#5

No way.

One of the things that differentiates an AP from a square:

A square doesn't read the fine print on a promotion.

···

On 1/2/08, eecounter <eecounter@hotmail.com> wrote:

   I can just picture a whole bunch of squares
lining up at the players club to check on whether or not they
are "advantage players" before they start playing in the promotion.

#6

Casinos are getter ever closer to posting big signs by the front door
which say "no thinking allowed".

EE

Which is, of course, the exact same policy of successful gamblers who
seek out the "path of least resistance." Successful poker players
call this search for the least intelligent competition "looking for
good games."

#7

Jean Scott wrote:

I just picked up the rules for the January drawings at Silverton and
there is a section which amazes me, one that I have never seen in
writing. I am copying it word for word:

<<The Promotion shall be open only to registered Silverton Discover
Club account members. The management of the Silverton reserves the
right to determine that any SDC account member who is deemed in the
sole and absolute discretion of the management of the Silverton to
be an "advantage player," [their punctuation] to be ineligible to
participate in the Promotion, or to have his ability to participate
in the Promotion otherwise limited. Any such "advantage player" who
is already a Silverton Discover Club member prior to the
commencement of the Promotion, will be notified by the Silverton
prior to the commencement of the Promotion of any such ineligibility
or limitation determination. Otherwise, any such "advantage player"
will be notified by the Silverton of any ineligibility or limitation
determination as soon as possible after such a determination is
made.>>

jackessiebabe wrote:

Jean, I find this written "rule" to be absolutely astounding!

Have you, or anyone else that you know, been advised of your
ineligibilty for the drawings?

In performing my own mental reality check of this news I find this
stipulation very surprising, but not entirely unexpected.

Jean and Bob have discussed drawing/promotion EV at some length over
the years in their writing -- to the benefit of most. It's a basic
fact that where casinos offer promotions that are particularly
attractive, there is now a subset of skilled players who play them
hard -- and consequently show a strong representation in the winners
circle.

Some casinos will find it distasteful when a customer who they
reliably expect is unprofitable, or inadequately profitable, pulls a
big prize in an event. It's not who they intend to target with the
promotion. Further, when one of these players stands with others,
waiting for the drawing with a ream of ticket stubs and then comes out
on top, the rank and file players tend to recognize that the player
isn't among "one of their own" ... some come away feeling a bit
cheated (admittedly, not an accurate call on their part).

···

------

Without belaboring this further, VERY aggressive advantage player
participation in a drawing can be a bit of a downer for both the other
players and the casino. It should be no surprise that a casino might
look for some way to discourage it.

Of course, none of this speaks to the specifics of Silverton's
situation. It's quite likely that the actual facts show this
particular move on their part to be a knee jerk reaction to concerns
that our entirely out of touch with the reality there.

But what's to be understood is that casinos are aware that there are
what might be deemed charity cases in the casino -- those who are
along for the ride but aren't adequately paying up for what it costs,
much less yielding an acceptable profit margin on top of that. As the
perception grows that the bandwagon is loading up, look for casinos to
attempt to single out lesser profitable patrons for similar
"discrimination" (look for an elephant gun to be the weapon of choice
in hunting down the "fleas" :wink:

- H.

#8

I'm an out of town player who has noticed a drastic decrease in
Silverton offers since I discovered the small bank of full-pay Vp
machines several months ago. For the past three years (until recently)
I have been getting nice Silverton invitations for free rooms
including hundreds of dollars freeplay (ABC credits) and special event
weekends and free gifts. Previously I played mostly spin-poker NSUD.
Then the last couple visits I spent a lot of time on the fullpay bank
racking up far more cedits per visit than usual and losing lots more
money than usual. (Probably because I hadn't practiced those games and
I left my cheat sheets at home...heh heh)
Well...subsequently I've gotten absolutely no offers from Silverton
other than a couple free nights per month (no free play or invites,
etc). Has anyone else had this experience? Perhaps Bob Dancer can tell
us if Silverton has changed their comp policy recently.

>Casinos are getter ever closer to posting big signs by the front

door

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:

>which say "no thinking allowed".
>
>EE

Which is, of course, the exact same policy of successful gamblers who
seek out the "path of least resistance." Successful poker players
call this search for the least intelligent competition "looking for
good games."

#9

Great post eecounter!

Scot

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
eecounter
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 1:33 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Silverton January Promotion

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

... In my opinion this is an unwise move by the casino management

because of its negative PR effect....

You're being much too nice. I would classify this in the "crazy-
stupid move" category, for a couple of reasons.

For one thing, I'm surprised that a casino would even admit in
writing to the general public that such a thing as an "advantage
player" exists at all. This contradicts the myth perpetuated by the
casino industry that might be paraphrased as...

"Casino gaming is really just another form of entertainment, but the
casino always wins in the end. Anyone who thinks they can beat the
casino in the long run is self-delusional."

This myth is so widely believed by the general public that many
otherwise intelligent casino players won't even investigate subjects
like card counting and expert VP play, figuring that these are just
more losing systems for suckers, because "no one can really beat the
casinos". (Live poker may be an exception to this rule, mainly
because the public has been beat over the head recently with
televised poker events showing winning poker players.)

The other main reason this is a bad move is, as you say, the negative
PR effect - especially the seemingly arbitrary exclusion by the
casino of whoever they determine to be an "advantage player". I
assume they provided no definition in their mailer for the
term "advantage player". I can just picture a whole bunch of squares
lining up at the players club to check on whether or not they
are "advantage players" before they start playing in the promotion.
What is the casino going to tell them? "No, don't worry, you're just
a regular sucker like most everyone else".

Casinos are getter ever closer to posting big signs by the front door
which say "no thinking allowed".

EE

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

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12:09 PM

#10

I just picked up the rules for the January drawings at Silverton

and there is a section which amazes me, one that I have never seen in
writing. I am copying it word for word:

<<The Promotion shall be open only to registered Silverton Discover

Club account members. The management of the Silverton reserves the
right to determine that any SDC account member who is deemed in the
sole and absolute discretion of the management of the Silverton to be
an "advantage player," [their punctuation] to be ineligible to
participate in the Promotion, or to have his ability to participate
in the Promotion otherwise limited. Any such "advantage player" who
is already a Silverton Discover Club member prior to the commencement
of the Promotion, will be notified by the Silverton prior to the
commencement of the Promotion of any such ineligibility or limitation
determination. Otherwise, any such "advantage player" will be
notified by the Silverton of any ineligibility or limitation
determination as soon as possible after such a determination is
made.>>

In my opinion this is an unwise move by the casino management

because of its negative PR effect. On these forums we have never
been able to exactly come to a consensus what an "advantage player"
is. So what does Silverton consider as one? Silverton has only a
handful of 100+ machines and they are mostly (or all?) on the quarter
level. (FPDW and FPDB) It would seem that a quarter player could
not earn enough drawing tickets to be a "threat."

Those that are playing at higher levels may be able to play enough

to "flood" the drum, but I would think the casino would like that -
because they are playing negative-expectation games.

I just can't understand why Silverton thought it necessary to put

this item in the rules???

________________
Jean $¢ott
The much-expanded new edition of my tax book,
including a new chapter on poker, is now available
to order at my Web site, http://queenofcomps.com/.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree about the negative spin in the letter. You could stuff the
barrel playing 9/6 JOB in the $1 10 plays if you really wanted to.
There is also 9/6 JOB in .25 and .50 ten play.

GimmeaQuad

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

#11

I can just picture a whole bunch of squares lining
up at the players club to check on whether or not
they are "advantage players" before they start
playing in the promotion. What is the casino going
to tell them? "No, don't worry, you're just a regular
sucker like most everyone else".

EE

This is my favorite paragraph of the New Year. I'm
still voting for the motto, "We love losers" as
the next national Las Vegas ad campaign.

#12

Couldn't they at any time pull a win/loss statement and if you've won more than you lost consider you an a/p?
Rod

... In my opinion this is an unwise move by the casino management

because of its negative PR effect....

You're being much too nice. I would classify this in the "crazy-
stupid move" category, for a couple of reasons.

For one thing, I'm surprised that a casino would even admit in
writing to the general public that such a thing as an "advantage
player" exists at all. This contradicts the myth perpetuated by the
casino industry that might be paraphrased as...

"Casino gaming is really just another form of entertainment, but the
casino always wins in the end. Anyone who thinks they can beat the
casino in the long run is self-delusional."

This myth is so widely believed by the general public that many
otherwise intelligent casino players won't even investigate subjects
like card counting and expert VP play, figuring that these are just
more losing systems for suckers, because "no one can really beat the
casinos". (Live poker may be an exception to this rule, mainly
because the public has been beat over the head recently with
televised poker events showing winning poker players.)

The other main reason this is a bad move is, as you say, the negative
PR effect - especially the seemingly arbitrary exclusion by the
casino of whoever they determine to be an "advantage player". I
assume they provided no definition in their mailer for the
term "advantage player". I can just picture a whole bunch of squares
lining up at the players club to check on whether or not they
are "advantage players" before they start playing in the promotion.
What is the casino going to tell them? "No, don't worry, you're just
a regular sucker like most everyone else".

Casinos are getter ever closer to posting big signs by the front door
which say "no thinking allowed".

EE

···

eecounter <eecer@hotmail.com> wrote: --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#13

Hmmm, I wonder how the Silverton management became educated
about "advantage players"? Guesses anyone?

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...>
wrote:

Jean, I find this written "rule" to be absolutely astounding!

Have you, or anyone else that you know, been advised of your
ineligibilty for the drawings?

~Babe~

I just picked up the rules for the January drawings at Silverton

and

there is a section which amazes me, one that I have never seen in
writing. I am copying it word for word:

<<The Promotion shall be open only to registered Silverton Discover
Club account members. The management of the Silverton reserves the
right to determine that any SDC account member who is deemed in the
sole and absolute discretion of the management of the Silverton to
be an "advantage player," [their punctuation] to be ineligible to
participate in the Promotion, or to have his ability to participate
in the Promotion otherwise limited. Any such "advantage player"

who

is already a Silverton Discover Club member prior to the
commencement of the Promotion, will be notified by the Silverton
prior to the commencement of the Promotion of any such

ineligibility

or limitation determination. Otherwise, any such "advantage

player"

will be notified by the Silverton of any ineligibility or

limitation

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@> wrote:
determination as soon as possible after such a determination is
made.>>

#14

I realize that this doesn't answer your question, hockeystl, but
I KNOW that it wasn't me!

The last time that I stayed at Silverton in October, as I was
thanking my host for his courtesies, he noticed that I was scatching
my elbow. "You're not a FLEA, are you?", he asked, suspiciously.
"Oh no, Sir!", I replied. "Not even an annoying gnat". That seemed
to satisfy him.

Since I am still receiving generous offers, sans AP disclaimers, I
assume that I have maintained my ploppie designation. This is not
all that difficult to do, especially if you lose a substantial
amount, a few times in a row!

~Babe~

···

=========================================
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hockeystl" <vegasstl@...> wrote:

Hmmm, I wonder how the Silverton management became educated
about "advantage players"? Guesses anyone?

#15

I just picked up the rules for the January drawings at Silverton and

there is a section which amazes me, one that I have never seen in
writing. I am copying it word for word:

<<The Promotion shall be open only to registered Silverton Discover

Club account members. The management of the Silverton reserves the
right to determine that any SDC account member who is deemed in the
sole and absolute discretion of the management of the Silverton to be
an "advantage player," [their punctuation] to be ineligible to
participate in the Promotion, or to have his ability to participate in
the Promotion otherwise limited. Any such "advantage player" who is
already a Silverton Discover Club member prior to the commencement of
the Promotion, will be notified by the Silverton prior to the
commencement of the Promotion of any such ineligibility or limitation
determination. Otherwise, any such "advantage player" will be
notified by the Silverton of any ineligibility or limitation
determination as soon as possible after such a determination is made.>>

In my opinion this is an unwise move by the casino management

because of its negative PR effect. On these forums we have never been
able to exactly come to a consensus what an "advantage player" is. So
what does Silverton consider as one? Silverton has only a handful of
100+ machines and they are mostly (or all?) on the quarter level.
(FPDW and FPDB) It would seem that a quarter player could not earn
enough drawing tickets to be a "threat."

Those that are playing at higher levels may be able to play enough

to "flood" the drum, but I would think the casino would like that -
because they are playing negative-expectation games.

I just can't understand why Silverton thought it necessary to put

this item in the rules???

I can't figure this out, either, for any number of reasons (which I
think I'll keep to myself). Let's just say this is just totally
hardcore, mega, burning midday sun on Mercury stupid. Unless you've
gotten one of those letters already, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Hint for Silverton Legal Dept.: all you have to do is to insert a
simple catchall clause reserving all rights and to refuse entry into
the promotion as they see fit. Unless you've put letters out already,
you really haven't done anything much at all.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

#16

LOL! I was just going to post the same thing. Where's palladin :-)?

Hmmm, I wonder how the Silverton management became educated
about "advantage players"? Guesses anyone?

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@>
wrote:
>
> Jean, I find this written "rule" to be absolutely astounding!
>
> Have you, or anyone else that you know, been advised of your
> ineligibilty for the drawings?
>
> ~Babe~
> =========================================
>
> I just picked up the rules for the January drawings at Silverton
and
> there is a section which amazes me, one that I have never seen in
> writing. I am copying it word for word:
>
> <<The Promotion shall be open only to registered Silverton

Discover

> Club account members. The management of the Silverton reserves

the

> right to determine that any SDC account member who is deemed in

the

> sole and absolute discretion of the management of the Silverton

to

> be an "advantage player," [their punctuation] to be ineligible to
> participate in the Promotion, or to have his ability to

participate

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hockeystl" <vegasstl@...> wrote:

> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@> wrote:
> in the Promotion otherwise limited. Any such "advantage player"
who
> is already a Silverton Discover Club member prior to the
> commencement of the Promotion, will be notified by the Silverton
> prior to the commencement of the Promotion of any such
ineligibility
> or limitation determination. Otherwise, any such "advantage
player"
> will be notified by the Silverton of any ineligibility or
limitation
> determination as soon as possible after such a determination is
> made.>>
>

#17

It would seem that a quarter player could not earn enough drawing
tickets to be a "threat."

Those that are playing at higher levels may be able to play enough

to "flood" the drum, but I would think the casino would like that -
because they are playing negative-expectation games.

Sounds like a classic case of slot floor managment paranoia to me.

But
excluding quote 'advantage players' from drawings, promos,ect. is
becoming trendy among casinos. Jean is absolutly right that quarter
players are a less than minimal threat. However, well financed
advantage players/burn-out artists/team players hammering a high
denom.
negative game may seem advantagous for the casino at first glance.
But
slot directors have become more clued in. Always the "negative" games
played during such promos,9/6 JOB or NSU for example, are with-in
three-
quarters % of being break-even or higher. Tack on cash back, mailers,
free play,food/casino comps, and of course whatever e.v. the drawing
tickets have and you have a situation thats fairly lucrative for the
player. We shouldnt be surprised quite frankly that casinos are
targeting advantage players. True nobody can exactly define advantage
player, but casinos know exactly what the burn-out artist playing 2$
NSU spin poker earning 1000 tickets an hour is doing. High denom.
pros
often whine about how much the casino is screwing them or how much
they've lost playing for drawing tickets. They're all full of crap!
Sure the promos arnt as good as they used to be, but one thing Ive
learned about high limit pros/burn-out artists is that they dont play
if they dont have an advantage. Casinos are just starting to catch on.

-Dan

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

#18

     Couldn't they at any time pull a win/loss statement and if

you've won more than you lost consider you an a/p?

Rod

They could do this, but it would be an awfully inaccurate method to
detect advantage VP players. This method would produce all sorts of
false "hits": regular slot players who have hit a major jackpot in
the past, bad VP players who are "over-royaled", players who have put
in little play and have been lucky in the short term (and not yet
been ground down by the house edge), etc. etc. In short, they would
end up tossing many of their "best" customers. Curiously, the
win/loss method of detection would also tend NOT to detect higher
denomination APs, who tend to play mainly slightly negative games
like 9/6 JOB and NSUD. These players *expect* to lose some money to
the games (but make up the difference and then some with cash back,
drawing equity, etc.).

Not to mention the fact that such a casino would quickly get a "win
money / get barred" reputation with the public.

EE

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, rod carlon <vprod1@...> wrote:

#19

Hint for Silverton Legal Dept.: all you have to do is
to insert a simple catchall clause reserving all rights
and to refuse entry into the promotion as they see fit.
Unless you've put letters out already,
you really haven't done anything much at all.

Yes and no. With your generic wording, if you turn away
someone in a protected class you create a legal risk (no
matter how small) that is easily avoided with their wording
choice. On one level it's pretty smart. What's the downside
for the Silverton -- a slew of AP's avoid their casino because
there's no way to eek out a profit, boo hoo.

#20

www.advantageplayer.com

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hockeystl" <vegasstl@...> wrote:

Hmmm, I wonder how the Silverton management became educated
about "advantage players"? Guesses anyone?