vpFREE2 Forums

SB 6613

#1

The Washington State online gambling bill prohibits anyone from knowingly
transmitting or receiving wagers and/or other gambling information online. The
state of Washington is teeming with Indian casinos and their own lottery, so
communications about 'gambling' takes place on a daily basis in other
communication media. Senator Prentice was the mover behind SB 6613, the banning of
Internet gambling, and it has been alleged that she was the recipient of substantial
campaign donations from the Indian Casinos.

    The law has been upgraded from a previous and similar statute to carry an
unranked felony penalty with a maximum of one year prison time and a fine.
The previous law, which was a misdemeanor, was never utilized to prosecute any
citizen of Washington State. Another interesting issue is that horse racing is
specifically excluded from SB 6613.

The Federal Wire Act and RECO take a similar stance and thus most online
gambling is originated outside this country. Free and "play money" gambling is not
included in the SB 6613 Bill, which is in conflict with the law as it states
any "transmission of gambling' information is illegal. Whether gambling is for
fun or profit, it is "gambling information" is it not?

    The issue I find most interesting; is how the State proposes to enforce
such a law. Laws of our country that unenforceable are not really considered
valid. Common law waives the specifics of any law not enforced or enforced
randomly. The President alludes to this premise on the issue of illegal
immigration, since borders are not effectively guarded and the Feds do not want to
enforce illegal status through any police action, how can you "send these people
back' when they have been here so long? In the immigration issue, you must begin
to enforce immigration laws or admit that we no longer have any immigration
laws in this country. In the case of Washington, they must enforce SB 6613 or
there really is no law.

    Now how will they enforce it? Go after known "gamblers." That would be
going after someone for by status as a "gambler" and it is illegal. It would be
like going after an Alcoholic without probable cause for some known illegal
action. You are breaking no law being a gambler or an alcoholic. Status which is
not a crime cannot be punished.

    Will they look for online gamblers through their IRS returns? Sort of
puts a chill on getting anyone to report a win eh? Plus, it would be another
fishing expedition to look through everyone's tax return for online gambling.

    Or will they resort to violating citizens civil rights by monitoring
telecommunications? Feds have been doing this sort of illegal "fishing"
expeditions for sometime now in the name of looking for terrorists-or Mafia--or drug
lords. Will they now use it to find out who is gambling online, break down their
home door and catch them in the act? Or will they look for credit card and
bank pay outs to online gambling concerns? For any of us, that thought it was
just fine to take away civil rights in the search of terrorist--or drug
organizations--I wander if it all seems OK when they may very well use the same tactics
to find your bingo or poker playing?

    I suspect there will be no enforcement. In fact, I will be shocked if the
citizens of Washington do not rise up and question why they have a state
lottery, Indian Casinos, horse racing--but cannot communicate online about
gambling! Pretty amusing when you think about it--but than these people could be
spending their time and energy on doing something for the state and it becomes
less funny.
China

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

The Washington State online gambling bill prohibits anyone from

knowingly

transmitting or receiving wagers and/or other gambling information

online. The

state of Washington is teeming with Indian casinos and their own

lottery, so

communications about 'gambling' takes place on a daily basis in

other

communication media. Senator Prentice was the mover behind SB 6613,

the banning of

Internet gambling, and it has been alleged that she was the

recipient of substantial

campaign donations from the Indian Casinos.

    The law has been upgraded from a previous and similar statute

to carry an

unranked felony penalty with a maximum of one year prison time and

a fine.

The previous law, which was a misdemeanor, was never utilized to

prosecute any

citizen of Washington State. Another interesting issue is that

horse racing is

specifically excluded from SB 6613.

The Federal Wire Act and RECO take a similar stance and thus most

online

gambling is originated outside this country. Free and "play money"

gambling is not

included in the SB 6613 Bill, which is in conflict with the law as

it states

any "transmission of gambling' information is illegal. Whether

gambling is for

fun or profit, it is "gambling information" is it not?

    The issue I find most interesting; is how the State proposes to

enforce

such a law. Laws of our country that unenforceable are not really

considered

valid. Common law waives the specifics of any law not enforced or

enforced

randomly. The President alludes to this premise on the issue of

illegal

immigration, since borders are not effectively guarded and the Feds

do not want to

enforce illegal status through any police action, how can you "send

these people

back' when they have been here so long? In the immigration issue,

you must begin

to enforce immigration laws or admit that we no longer have any

immigration

laws in this country. In the case of Washington, they must enforce

SB 6613 or

there really is no law.

    Now how will they enforce it? Go after known "gamblers." That

would be

going after someone for by status as a "gambler" and it is illegal.

It would be

like going after an Alcoholic without probable cause for some known

illegal

action. You are breaking no law being a gambler or an alcoholic.

Status which is

not a crime cannot be punished.

    Will they look for online gamblers through their IRS returns?

Sort of

puts a chill on getting anyone to report a win eh? Plus, it would

be another

fishing expedition to look through everyone's tax return for online

gambling.

    Or will they resort to violating citizens civil rights by

monitoring

telecommunications? Feds have been doing this sort of

illegal "fishing"

expeditions for sometime now in the name of looking for terrorists-

or Mafia--or drug

lords. Will they now use it to find out who is gambling online,

break down their

home door and catch them in the act? Or will they look for credit

card and

bank pay outs to online gambling concerns? For any of us, that

thought it was

just fine to take away civil rights in the search of terrorist--or

drug

organizations--I wander if it all seems OK when they may very well

use the same tactics

to find your bingo or poker playing?

    I suspect there will be no enforcement. In fact, I will be

shocked if the

citizens of Washington do not rise up and question why they have a

state

lottery, Indian Casinos, horse racing--but cannot communicate

online about

gambling! Pretty amusing when you think about it--but than these

people could be

spending their time and energy on doing something for the state and

it becomes

less funny.
China

Thanks for the interesting discussion of the new Washington law.

A question: If I win more than $1200 gambling online is it reported
to the IRS? If so (as you mentioned) that tells Uncle Sam you broke
a federal and state law. Pretty easy to enforce that violation.

But overall, I think online gambling presents many difficult
enforcement issues. In fact, many illegal activities are difficult
to enforce when they are happen online, especially if one party
resides in a different state or outside the US.

Where did you get the scoop that Senator Prentice received campaign
donations from the Tribal Casinos?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, China15334@... wrote:

#3

As I recall, there was about a 103-104% dollar play at a savon drug store a few years ago, and a number of other profitable plays in other drug stores. I think Cardfather once posted a very good dollar play at a drugstore or supermarket back in the day. I haven't seen many of those lately (of course, I haven't looked for them either).
Skip

brumar_lv wrote:

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>, China15334@... wrote:
>
> The Washington State online gambling bill prohibits anyone from
knowingly
> transmitting or receiving wagers and/or other gambling information
online. The
> state of Washington is teeming with Indian casinos and their own
lottery, so
> communications about 'gambling' takes place on a daily basis in
other
> communication media. Senator Prentice was the mover behind SB 6613,
the banning of
> Internet gambling, and it has been alleged that she was the
recipient of substantial
> campaign donations from the Indian Casinos.
>
> The law has been upgraded from a previous and similar statute
to carry an
> unranked felony penalty with a maximum of one year prison time and
a fine.
> The previous law, which was a misdemeanor, was never utilized to
prosecute any
> citizen of Washington State. Another interesting issue is that
horse racing is
> specifically excluded from SB 6613.
>
> The Federal Wire Act and RECO take a similar stance and thus most
online
> gambling is originated outside this country. Free and "play money"
gambling is not
> included in the SB 6613 Bill, which is in conflict with the law as
it states
> any "transmission of gambling' information is illegal. Whether
gambling is for
> fun or profit, it is "gambling information" is it not?
>
> The issue I find most interesting; is how the State proposes to
enforce
> such a law. Laws of our country that unenforceable are not really
considered
> valid. Common law waives the specifics of any law not enforced or
enforced
> randomly. The President alludes to this premise on the issue of
illegal
> immigration, since borders are not effectively guarded and the Feds
do not want to
> enforce illegal status through any police action, how can you "send
these people
> back' when they have been here so long? In the immigration issue,
you must begin
> to enforce immigration laws or admit that we no longer have any
immigration
> laws in this country. In the case of Washington, they must enforce
SB 6613 or
> there really is no law.
>
> Now how will they enforce it? Go after known "gamblers." That
would be
> going after someone for by status as a "gambler" and it is illegal.
It would be
> like going after an Alcoholic without probable cause for some known
illegal
> action. You are breaking no law being a gambler or an alcoholic.
Status which is
> not a crime cannot be punished.
>
> Will they look for online gamblers through their IRS returns?
Sort of
> puts a chill on getting anyone to report a win eh? Plus, it would
be another
> fishing expedition to look through everyone's tax return for online
gambling.
>
> Or will they resort to violating citizens civil rights by
monitoring
> telecommunications? Feds have been doing this sort of
illegal "fishing"
> expeditions for sometime now in the name of looking for terrorists-
or Mafia--or drug
> lords. Will they now use it to find out who is gambling online,
break down their
> home door and catch them in the act? Or will they look for credit
card and
> bank pay outs to online gambling concerns? For any of us, that
thought it was
> just fine to take away civil rights in the search of terrorist--or
drug
> organizations--I wander if it all seems OK when they may very well
use the same tactics
> to find your bingo or poker playing?
>
> I suspect there will be no enforcement. In fact, I will be
shocked if the
> citizens of Washington do not rise up and question why they have a
state
> lottery, Indian Casinos, horse racing--but cannot communicate
online about
> gambling! Pretty amusing when you think about it--but than these
people could be
> spending their time and energy on doing something for the state and
it becomes
> less funny.
> China
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thanks for the interesting discussion of the new Washington law.

A question: If I win more than $1200 gambling online is it reported
to the IRS? If so (as you mentioned) that tells Uncle Sam you broke
a federal and state law. Pretty easy to enforce that violation.

But overall, I think online gambling presents many difficult
enforcement issues. In fact, many illegal activities are difficult
to enforce when they are happen online, especially if one party
resides in a different state or outside the US.

Where did you get the scoop that Senator Prentice received campaign
donations from the Tribal Casinos?

--
Thanks!
Skip
http://www.vpinsider.com

#4

<<A question: If I win more than $1200 gambling online is it reported
to the IRS? If so (as you mentioned) that tells Uncle Sam you broke
a federal and state law. Pretty easy to enforce that violation.>>

Online casinos do not issue W2G's since they are not headquartered in the U.S. Same for cruise ships. (American-based cruise companies do not have gambling onboard.) Supposedly the IRS doesn't communicate with other government agencies concerning information on tax returns. They expect people to report ALL income, from both legal and illegal sources. Many taxpayers report income on illegal activities, including prostitution, illegal gambling, bookmaking, etc. (Remember Al Capone was prosecuted for failing to report his illegal income on tax returns!)

And the IRS is not supposed to go on "fishing expeditions" in audits, but stick to the issue (s) involved. However, in this age of terrorists, the IRS may have (or take) broader powers.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott
New book coming this summer
"FRUGAL VIDEO POKER"
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

<<Online casinos do not issue W2G's since they are not headquartered in the
U.S. Same for cruise ships.>>

I have received W-2Gs on cruise ships.

Cogno

#6

Jean wrote: Online casinos do not issue W2G's since they are not
headquartered in the U.S. Same for cruise ships.

  This isn't always true. When I taught classes on the Norwegian
Dawn a few years ago, W2Gs WERE issued, and was told that this was a NCL
corporate policy.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

#7

<<I have received W-2Gs on cruise ships.>>

What cruise line? Has anyone else received them? I was sure they never gave them because they aren't U.S. based or owned.

I'm not sure about a "cruise to nowhere," which is U.S. based and owned.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott
New book coming this summer
"FRUGAL VIDEO POKER"
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#8

<<Jean wrote: Online casinos do not issue W2G's since they are not
headquartered in the U.S. Same for cruise ships.""

Thanx to those who answered about cruise ships, that SOME do issue W2G's. I think that most do not, but I will note that this is not universal. Of course, I will also emphasize that the IRS expects you to report ALL gambling income, whether there is any official paperwork or not. Now, what an individual does about this is a personal issue!!

I am assuming no online casino issues W2G's, but has anyone ever gotten one?

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott
New book coming this summer
"FRUGAL VIDEO POKER"
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

Jean Scott wrote:

Thanx to those who answered about cruise ships, that SOME do issue
W2G's. I think that most do not, but I will note that this is not
universal.

NCL (which Bob noted) is the only cruise line I've seen discussed as
issuing W2-G's.

Prior to our cruise earlier this year I came across the following on
the NCL "Casinos at Sea" info webpage:
http://www.nclcasino.com/faq.htm

···

=====================================================================

IRS Reporting
W2G or 1042S forms are issued for single slot machine winnings in
excess of $1200.00 or a single table wager earning more than 300%
return, as in the case of a Caribbean Stud Progressive Jackpot Win.

Federal Income Tax Act stipulates that all American citizens and
Permanent Residents are subject to global income tax. Regardless if a
US citizen or Permanent Resident earns this income in international
waters or with a ship that carries a foreign flag, if income is
generated, such income becomes taxable. If a Social Security number is
furnished, then the document W2G will be issued with NO upfront tax
deduction. If a Social Security number is not furnished, then an
upfront withholding tax will apply. Foreign guests will be taxed only
if winnings are derived within US domestic waters. Whenever a tax form
is issued to the guest, a duplicate copy will be sent to the IRS.

=====================================================================

I have to assume that this is strictly a case of voluntary reporting
compliance and that there's no way the IRS could enforce such
reporting. I'm surprised that they're motivated to do it.

- Harry

#10

What about Indian (Native American) casinos? I thought Indian reservations were supposed to be sovereign nations... so what are they doing issuing US W2G's? I wonder about the legality.

What if you refuse to give your SSN on a cruise or Indian reservation....are they going to withhold your jackpot, or a portion thereof?

···

---------------------------------
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#11

Jean–my husband won over $1200 on the Carnival Conquest about 2 years ago and guess what he got??? Right. . . .a W2G!!! We asked since we were on a foreign ship in international waters but they still issued it to us! And we had to report it that year. So you MAY want to check your resources about this–I can go in the basement and dig thru the old taxes and send you a copy if you wish! BUT they will report your winnings over $1200 (in fact that trip I think my husband got 2 W2Gs)
  Just an FYI. . . .JH
  $+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$

Jean Scott <QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz> wrote:<to the IRS? If so (as you mentioned) that tells Uncle Sam you broke a federal and state law. Pretty easy to enforce that violation.>>

Online casinos do not issue W2G's since they are not headquartered in the U.S. Same for cruise ships. (American-based cruise companies do not have gambling onboard.) Supposedly the IRS doesn't communicate with other government agencies concerning information on tax returns. They expect people to report ALL income, from both legal and illegal sources. Many taxpayers report income on illegal activities, including prostitution, illegal gambling, bookmaking, etc. (Remember Al Capone was prosecuted for failing to report his illegal income on tax returns!)
And the IRS is not supposed to go on "fishing expeditions" in audits, but stick to the issue (s) involved. However, in this age of terrorists, the IRS may have (or take) broader powers.

Jean H--
   
  You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes.
You can steer yourself any direction you choose.
You're on your own. And you know what you know.
  And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go.... Dr. Suess

···

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#12

Miccosukee Resort & Gaming casino in Miami will withhold federal income tax if you cannot present a valid SS Card...no exceptions...would not even take my valid military ID card with SSN on it. There is another Indian casino in Hollywood, FL...we have played both and are major winners by staying completely away from them! Won a few jackpots but this was by far the exception. They both issued W2G's. IRS requires you to report "worldwide" income so it doesn't matter where it's earned. (25 years with H&R Block)
   
  All the Indian casinos in FL are Bingo games that look exactly like Vegas slot machines, including the video poker. Don't be fooled. If you like playing Bingo, you will love these casinos, but expect the same percentage of win rate.
   
  Chuck & Kathy

···

John Douglass <john.douglass@yahoo.com> wrote:
          What about Indian (Native American) casinos? I thought Indian reservations were supposed to be sovereign nations... so what are they doing issuing US W2G's? I wonder about the legality.

What if you refuse to give your SSN on a cruise or Indian reservation....are they going to withhold your jackpot, or a portion thereof?

---------------------------------
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#13

If you do not share your SScard or your SS # - just and id card. They
will withhold 28% of the jackpot for taxes. Then they file it with
the state. At least I know that is true in California. In California
the Indian Casinos are souverign nations but they are only allow to
have VP and slots and only a certain amount of them as sanctioned by
the state. otherwise, they are just a bingo hall.
That is what I have been told by people who should definitely know.

What about Indian (Native American) casinos? I thought Indian

reservations were supposed to be sovereign nations... so what are they
doing issuing US W2G's? I wonder about the legality.

What if you refuse to give your SSN on a cruise or Indian

reservation....are they going to withhold your jackpot, or a portion
thereof?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Douglass <john.douglass@...> wrote:

   
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#14

There's a big difference between the IRS requiring you as a US citizen to report your income, versus the IRS requiring a foreign casino to issue you American tax forms. There's no way they can enforce that.
   
  It seems to me that cruise ships are reporting W2Gs as a courtesy to the US government, unless they do business here and agree to do that as part of their licensing as a cruise ship operator. As far as Indian casinos go, it may be a part of their agreements with the individual states that W2G transactions get reported.

···

Kathy Howard <kc42223@yahoo.com> wrote:
  IRS requires you to report "worldwide" income so it doesn't matter where it's earned. (25 years with H&R Block)

---------------------------------
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#15

<<Miccosukee Resort & Gaming casino in Miami will withhold federal income
tax if you cannot present a valid SS Card...no exceptions>>

It would probably be fun to sic the Feds on them. The Social Security card
is not a valid ID. Signing a W9 form is all they need.

Cogno

#16

A couple of years ago, a friend hit a 50c RF at an Indian Casino in
WI. He did not carry his SS card w/ him and as a result, they would
not pay him anything. They did allow him to return later with the
card and get his money, but it proved to be a huge hassle.

Correna Correna

What about Indian (Native American) casinos? I thought Indian

reservations were supposed to be sovereign nations... so what are they
doing issuing US W2G's? I wonder about the legality.

What if you refuse to give your SSN on a cruise or Indian

reservation....are they going to withhold your jackpot, or a portion
thereof?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Douglass <john.douglass@...> wrote:

#17

I cannot imagine why the IRS or US Govt could not enforce that.
They easily could send someone on the cruise ship to monitor what is
happening. I personally have no idea why an American citizen would
not have their SS card with them or why anyone would want to argue
with an Indian operated casino or a Cruise Ship Casino about a tax
form. Only thing I can figure is that such a person probably does
not report winnings (or loses) on their indiviual tax filings each
year.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Douglass <john.douglass@...>
wrote:

There's a big difference between the IRS requiring you as a US

citizen to report your income, versus the IRS requiring a foreign
casino to issue you American tax forms. There's no way they can
enforce that.

   
  It seems to me that cruise ships are reporting W2Gs as a

courtesy to the US government, unless they do business here and
agree to do that as part of their licensing as a cruise ship
operator. As far as Indian casinos go, it may be a part of their
agreements with the individual states that W2G transactions get
reported.

Kathy Howard <kc42223@...> wrote:
  IRS requires you to report "worldwide" income so it doesn't

matter where it's earned. (25 years with H&R Block)

···

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Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

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#18

Having lived outside the U.S. for 13 of my 60 years and having traveled
to many foreign countries, I have never carried my SS card here or
abroad. It states on the card that it is not to be used for
identification. I have also never been asked for it in any casino, no
matter the size of the W2G, I have been in, foreign or domestic. But to
be fair, I do not and will not go to Indian Casinos either. If I were
ever asked for it, I would file a formal complaint with the gaming
authority, state, casino, and feds.

Bob

missdeuces wrote:

I personally have no idea why an American citizen would
not have their SS card with them or why anyone would want to argue
with an Indian operated casino or a Cruise Ship Casino about a tax
form. Only thing I can figure is that such a person probably does
not report winnings (or loses) on their indiviual tax filings each
year.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#19

I hit a W2G jackpot in WI at an Indian casino 2 years ago. I was
given two options: return with my SS card or have federal taxes
withheld.

A couple of years ago, a friend hit a 50c RF at an Indian Casino

in

WI. He did not carry his SS card w/ him and as a result, they

would

not pay him anything. They did allow him to return later with the
card and get his money, but it proved to be a huge hassle.

Correna Correna

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Douglass <john.douglass@>

wrote:

>
> What about Indian (Native American) casinos? I thought Indian
reservations were supposed to be sovereign nations... so what are

they

doing issuing US W2G's? I wonder about the legality.
>
> What if you refuse to give your SSN on a cruise or Indian
reservation....are they going to withhold your jackpot, or a

portion

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "correna2" <correna2@...> wrote:

thereof?

#20

<<I personally have no idea why an American citizen would not have their SS
card with them>>

Because the card says "not valid for identification" on it and you are not
required to present it for any reason whatsoever.

Cogno