vpFREE2 Forums

RNG Operation

#1

This is mainly a curiousity question. I am assume that the number
generator selects ten numbers (cards) when you hit deal. Do all vp
machines work this way and could you see what "hole" cards are behind
dealt hand if the machine was openned? Wouldn't it be a unique
optional feature to be able to reveal what cards were behind in certain
situations after the draw?
  Does any one know at about what rate new numbers are being generated
after you hit draw and are they being generated until you hit the deal
button again. I assume the speed might be a very high number and that
this means most individual mannerism you might see before they hit the
deal button again are really silly. I saw one lady counting and
tapping her finger in order to maintain a perfect rythem and timing
before each deal.

Thanks,
Bob

#2

  This is mainly a curiousity question. I am assume that the

number

generator selects ten numbers (cards) when you hit deal.

Bad assumption. For IGT machines older than 2000 you'd be correct,
for newer machines it's 5 on deal and 5 on draw.

Do all vp
machines work this way and could you see what "hole" cards are

behind

dealt hand if the machine was openned?

To my knowledge only IGT has provided this info, and since the cards
are just numbers internal to the computer chip, openning the machine
would provide no help.

Wouldn't it be a unique
optional feature to be able to reveal what cards were behind in

certain

situations after the draw?

Yes

  Does any one know at about what rate new numbers are being

generated

after you hit draw and are they being generated until you hit the

deal

button again.

The RNG algorithm probably takes between 100-1000 cycles, so if you
know the computer speed it would not be too difficult. For example,
on a 200 MHZ computer using 1000 cycles, the number would be
200,000,000/1000 = 200K cards.

I assume the speed might be a very high number and that
this means most individual mannerism you might see before they hit

the

deal button again are really silly. I saw one lady counting and
tapping her finger in order to maintain a perfect rythem and timing
before each deal.

Right on.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "futrend" <futrend@y...> wrote:

Thanks,
Bob

#3

Bob,

All current IGT machines deal 5 cards then select the draw cards when the
draw button is hit. During idle time the RNG is cycling, running thousands
of numbers through per second. It is assumed that other manufacturers'
machines operate the same way.

Bill

···

At 07:50 PM 05/30/2005, you wrote:

  This is mainly a curiousity question. I am assume that the number
generator selects ten numbers (cards) when you hit deal. Do all vp
machines work this way and could you see what "hole" cards are behind
dealt hand if the machine was openned? Wouldn't it be a unique
optional feature to be able to reveal what cards were behind in certain
situations after the draw?
  Does any one know at about what rate new numbers are being generated
after you hit draw and are they being generated until you hit the deal
button again. I assume the speed might be a very high number and that
this means most individual mannerism you might see before they hit the
deal button again are really silly. I saw one lady counting and
tapping her finger in order to maintain a perfect rythem and timing
before each deal.

Thanks,
Bob

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

Other than the obvious "antiques", is there any way determining which IGT machines are prior to 2000? Thanks.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: mroejacks
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 4:51 AM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: RNG Operation

  --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "futrend" <futrend@y...> wrote:
  > This is mainly a curiousity question. I am assume that the
  number
  > generator selects ten numbers (cards) when you hit deal.

  Bad assumption. For IGT machines older than 2000 you'd be correct,
  for newer machines it's 5 on deal and 5 on draw.

  > Do all vp
  > machines work this way and could you see what "hole" cards are
  behind
  > dealt hand if the machine was openned?

  To my knowledge only IGT has provided this info, and since the cards
  are just numbers internal to the computer chip, openning the machine
  would provide no help.

  > Wouldn't it be a unique
  > optional feature to be able to reveal what cards were behind in
  certain
  > situations after the draw?

  Yes

  > Does any one know at about what rate new numbers are being
  generated
  > after you hit draw and are they being generated until you hit the
  deal
  > button again.

  The RNG algorithm probably takes between 100-1000 cycles, so if you
  know the computer speed it would not be too difficult. For example,
  on a 200 MHZ computer using 1000 cycles, the number would be
  200,000,000/1000 = 200K cards.

  > I assume the speed might be a very high number and that
  > this means most individual mannerism you might see before they hit
  the
  > deal button again are really silly. I saw one lady counting and
  > tapping her finger in order to maintain a perfect rythem and timing
  > before each deal.

  Right on.

  >
  > Thanks,
  > Bob

  vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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#5

Can I ask what *possible* difference it could make to the player whether the machine draws 5 and 5, or 10 at once?

Because either way, (assuming a non-gaffed machine) it's randomly determined, and without some "feature" that would let you see the upcoming cards.... it's irrelevant, because the remaining 47 or 48 cards are still hidden from the player at the time the player chooses to hold or discard....

···

On May 31, 2005, at 9:25 AM, Richard Gordon wrote:

Other than the obvious "antiques", is there any way determining which IGT machines are prior to 2000? Thanks.

#6

Just curious. RG

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: John Thomas
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 6:54 AM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: RNG Operation

  On May 31, 2005, at 9:25 AM, Richard Gordon wrote:

  > Other than the obvious "antiques", is there any way determining
  > which IGT machines are prior to 2000? Thanks.

  Can I ask what *possible* difference it could make to the player
  whether the machine draws 5 and 5, or 10 at once?

  Because either way, (assuming a non-gaffed machine) it's randomly
  determined, and without some "feature" that would let you see the
  upcoming cards.... it's irrelevant, because the remaining 47 or 48
  cards are still hidden from the player at the time the player chooses
  to hold or discard....

  vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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#7

> Other than the obvious "antiques", is there any way determining
> which IGT machines are prior to 2000? Thanks.

Can I ask what *possible* difference it could make to the player
whether the machine draws 5 and 5, or 10 at once?

Because either way, (assuming a non-gaffed machine) it's randomly
determined, and without some "feature" that would let you see the
upcoming cards.... it's irrelevant, because the remaining 47 or 48
cards are still hidden from the player at the time the player chooses
to hold or discard....

···

-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Thomas <jfthomas3@c...> wrote:

On May 31, 2005, at 9:25 AM, Richard Gordon wrote:

***********

How about this scenario, the machine deals 5 cards face up and 5 more
face down underneath the 5 face up (as in older machines). You get 4
to a royal but the 5th card to complete the flush is one of the 5
dealt face down --- underneath one of the 4 keepers. Now is is
impossible to complete the hand and win the royal flush.

I would much rather have the 5th card still in the deck and have a 1
in 47 chance of hitting it than having it already dealt and having NO
chance.

Rick

#8

How about this scenario, the machine deals 5 cards face up and 5 more
face down underneath the 5 face up (as in older machines). You get 4
to a royal but the 5th card to complete the flush is one of the 5
dealt face down --- underneath one of the 4 keepers. Now is is
impossible to complete the hand and win the royal flush.

I would much rather have the 5th card still in the deck and have a 1
in 47 chance of hitting it than having it already dealt and having NO
chance.

Err.... OK. But tell me how that affects your play, or whether or not you will hit the royal flush, or your odds, or your strategy??

Because either way, you get the card that's dealt to you, whether it's dealt when you push "Deal" or when you drop the 5th coin, it's the card that's coming up on the draw.

And either way it's still a random pull of 10 cards out of 52.

So.....?

#9

Well, how about if the card that you need is sitting at the end of the deck. It is
just as unavailable to you.

Remember, the deck in a VP machine is not a "deck of cards", it is a sequence
of numbers, representing cards in a real deck.

No matter what, the card you get, after a discard, is random.

.....bl

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rick & Lucky Lucy" <luckylucy39@e...>
wrote:

···

-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Thomas <jfthomas3@c...> wrote:

How about this scenario, the machine deals 5 cards face up and 5 more
face down underneath the 5 face up (as in older machines). You get 4
to a royal but the 5th card to complete the flush is one of the 5
dealt face down --- underneath one of the 4 keepers. Now is is
impossible to complete the hand and win the royal flush.

I would much rather have the 5th card still in the deck and have a 1
in 47 chance of hitting it than having it already dealt and having NO
chance.

Rick

#10

It won't affect ones play but it clears up how the one-card draw for a
Royal is accomplished. On newer machines(or chips), it is now a
two-step process in determining whether you get the Royal.....Deal and
Draw. It use to be one step....Deal.

> How about this scenario, the machine deals 5 cards face up and 5

more

> face down underneath the 5 face up (as in older machines). You

get 4

> to a royal but the 5th card to complete the flush is one of the 5
> dealt face down --- underneath one of the 4 keepers. Now is is
> impossible to complete the hand and win the royal flush.
>
> I would much rather have the 5th card still in the deck and have

a 1

> in 47 chance of hitting it than having it already dealt and

having NO

···

-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Thomas <jfthomas3@c...> wrote:

> chance.
>

Err.... OK. But tell me how that affects your play, or whether or
not you will hit the royal flush, or your odds, or your strategy??

Because either way, you get the card that's dealt to you, whether
it's dealt when you push "Deal" or when you drop the 5th coin, it's

the card that's coming up on the draw.

And either way it's still a random pull of 10 cards out of 52.

So.....?

#11

It won't affect ones play but it clears up how the one-card draw for a
Royal is accomplished. On newer machines(or chips), it is now a
two-step process in determining whether you get the Royal.....Deal and
Draw. It use to be one step....Deal.

It doesn't "clear up" anything of the sort.

The RF (or any other payout) is "accomplished" when, after the draw, you have the cards necessary to comprise the hand.

Your odds of having them in your hand at the end of the play are exactly the same when you put your coins in the machine, no matter when the cards are drawn.

So.... I ask again how this matters?

#12

It isn't necessarily the year 2000, it is the Game King platform. All Game
Kings have certain characteristics in common: touch screen and the layout
of buttons at the bottom of the screen. Game Kings might have more than one
denomination and / or game but might have only one. All "exotic" games,
multi-plays, Multi-Strike, etc. come on the Game King platform. Essentially
most IGT VP machines found in casinos today are on this platform.

···

At 06:25 AM 05/31/2005, you wrote:

Other than the obvious "antiques", is there any way determining which IGT
machines are prior to 2000? Thanks.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: mroejacks
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 4:51 AM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: RNG Operation

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#13

It is psychological. We have all had the situation where we (correctly)
held a high pair rather than 3 to a Royal and the first two cards dealt
"would have" completed the Royal. Now we can't kick ourselves because we
KNOW that we would not have gotten those cards if we'd held differently. On
the other hand, every time we make this play we "give up a Royal". Oh, well.

Still, let those that want to enjoy the thrill of a near miss have their
fun. They know that mathematically it makes no difference but there is that
pesky psychological factor.

B

···

At 01:56 PM 05/31/2005, you wrote:

> It won't affect ones play but it clears up how the one-card draw for a
> Royal is accomplished. On newer machines(or chips), it is now a
> two-step process in determining whether you get the Royal.....Deal and
> Draw. It use to be one step....Deal.

It doesn't "clear up" anything of the sort.

The RF (or any other payout) is "accomplished" when, after the draw,
you have the cards necessary to comprise the hand.

Your odds of having them in your hand at the end of the play are
exactly the same when you put your coins in the machine, no matter
when the cards are drawn.

So.... I ask again how this matters?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#14

Other than the obvious "antiques", is there any way determining which IGT machines are prior to 2000? Thanks.

I have an IGT multigame slantop

Below the armrest on the right hand side is a label riveted on that has:

Serial number: ..... Bar code: .....
Model: GD67D
Desc: POKER
Date Manf: 5/93

Dennis
vp-connoisseur

#15

But it is not at the "end of the deck", it's number is coming up on
the RNG (along with the other 46 left in the 'deck') and if you press
deal at that exact nano-second, you get the royal. With the 10 card
scenario described below, there is no way in hell of getting the
royal. And that does not replicate the actual card game as called for
by the various gaming commissions.

If my understanding of how this works is in error, please enlighten me.

Rick

Well, how about if the card that you need is sitting at the end of

the deck. It is

just as unavailable to you.

Remember, the deck in a VP machine is not a "deck of cards", it is a

sequence

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@y...> wrote:

of numbers, representing cards in a real deck.

No matter what, the card you get, after a discard, is random.

.....bl

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rick & Lucky Lucy" <luckylucy39@e...>
wrote:
>
>
> -- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Thomas <jfthomas3@c...> wrote:
>
> How about this scenario, the machine deals 5 cards face up and 5 more
> face down underneath the 5 face up (as in older machines). You get 4
> to a royal but the 5th card to complete the flush is one of the 5
> dealt face down --- underneath one of the 4 keepers. Now is is
> impossible to complete the hand and win the royal flush.
>
> I would much rather have the 5th card still in the deck and have a 1
> in 47 chance of hitting it than having it already dealt and having NO
> chance.
>
> Rick

#16

Bill, thanks for the courtesy. RG

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Bill Coleman
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 4:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: RNG Operation

  It isn't necessarily the year 2000, it is the Game King platform. All Game
  Kings have certain characteristics in common: touch screen and the layout
  of buttons at the bottom of the screen. Game Kings might have more than one
  denomination and / or game but might have only one. All "exotic" games,
  multi-plays, Multi-Strike, etc. come on the Game King platform. Essentially
  most IGT VP machines found in casinos today are on this platform.

  At 06:25 AM 05/31/2005, you wrote:
  >Other than the obvious "antiques", is there any way determining which IGT
  >machines are prior to 2000? Thanks.
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: mroejacks
  > To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  > Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 4:51 AM
  > Subject: [vpFREE] Re: RNG Operation

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#17

That brings up a question. Since here in Nevada, a VP game is supposed
to mimic a real deck, wouldn't the sequence of cards be set after a
shuffle? If indeed the deck is being shuffled after the top 5 cards
are dealt, then shouldn't this information be disclosed-posted on the
machine? If I take a real deck of cards and deal the top 5, the rest
of the deck just sits there until I draw cards.

Bob,

All current IGT machines deal 5 cards then select the draw cards

when the

draw button is hit. During idle time the RNG is cycling, running

thousands

of numbers through per second. It is assumed that other

manufacturers'

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@c...> wrote:

machines operate the same way.

#18

In the "10-card deal", the machine is "shuffling" the remaining 42
cards, waiting for you to press the "deal" button. In the "5-card
deal", the machine is "shuffling" the remaining 47 cards, waiting
for you to press the "deal" button. For the "entire operation"
i.e., deal-discard-deal, the probability of you getting a royal are
exactly the same.

.....bl

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rick & Lucky Lucy"
<luckylucy39@e...> wrote:

But it is not at the "end of the deck", it's number is coming up on
the RNG (along with the other 46 left in the 'deck') and if you

press

deal at that exact nano-second, you get the royal. With the 10

card

scenario described below, there is no way in hell of getting the
royal. And that does not replicate the actual card game as called

for

by the various gaming commissions.

If my understanding of how this works is in error, please

enlighten me.

···

Rick

#19

OOOPS! I neglected to add...

In the "10-card deal", if the card you need to coomplete the royal
has already been dealt in the "2nd set of 5 cards", there is a one
in five chance that it is "under" the discarded card and you have
the royal anyway.

.....bl

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@y...>
wrote:

In the "10-card deal", the machine is "shuffling" the remaining 42
cards, waiting for you to press the "deal" button. In the "5-

card

deal", the machine is "shuffling" the remaining 47 cards, waiting
for you to press the "deal" button. For the "entire operation"
i.e., deal-discard-deal, the probability of you getting a royal

are

exactly the same.

.....bl

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rick & Lucky Lucy"
<luckylucy39@e...> wrote:
> But it is not at the "end of the deck", it's number is coming up

on

> the RNG (along with the other 46 left in the 'deck') and if you
press
> deal at that exact nano-second, you get the royal. With the 10
card
> scenario described below, there is no way in hell of getting the
> royal. And that does not replicate the actual card game as

called

···

for
> by the various gaming commissions.
>
> If my understanding of how this works is in error, please
enlighten me.
>
> Rick
>

#20

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@y...>
wrote:

···

In the "10-card deal", the machine is "shuffling" the remaining 42
cards, waiting for you to press the "deal" button. In the "5-card
deal", the machine is "shuffling" the remaining 47 cards, waiting
for you to press the "deal" button. For the "entire operation"
i.e., deal-discard-deal, the probability of you getting a royal are
exactly the same.

.....bl

-------------------------------------------------

Sorry, but I'm still a bit confused about all this. Can you please
explain in more details (examples would be great)?

So if you get dealt 4 to a Royal, pressing the DRAW button 3 seconds
later will have a different result than pressing it 3 minutes later?

I've seen it both ways in the casinos where some people hit the DRAW
button as fast as they can right after getting 4 to a Royal on the
deal while others take all the time they have to slow down, comb
their hair, look around, tell all their friends "this is it, I should
get the Royal now", press the HOLD button on the 5th card repeatedly
to hold then unhold, etc.