vpFREE2 Forums

RNG Operation

#21

So if you get dealt 4 to a Royal, pressing the DRAW button 3 seconds
later will have a different result than pressing it 3 minutes later?

No, it won't. The outcome is the same -- you have the same chance of turning over the last card to RF no matter when the identity of that card is determined. Given that the RNG is running through the cards a zillion times a second, and a millisecond's difference in hitting the deal button (or dropping the 5th coin) makes the determination, it's just not something that you can reasonably control. Even on the old old old machines, the RNG is still going a heck of a lot faster than you are.

The "psychological" thing here is even less appropriate. You don't, and can't, know what the last card is, no matter when you press the button. Therefore, it can't possibly affect you, even if it's indeterminate until the draw button is pressed -- because the next card out will always be the next card out, period. It can't affect your play, and it's not like you can count to 10 to make sure you hit the King of Hearts.

Wondering if it makes a difference *when* you push the button is like pondering whether God can make a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it. You don't know, you can't know, and it doesn't matter, anyway.

#22

So if you get dealt 4 to a Royal, pressing the DRAW button 3 seconds
later will have a different result than pressing it 3 minutes later?

Here's my two cents. Let's assume that you have discovered a method to
determine the exact sequence of the large amount of numbers being generated
by the processor and you can connect each number to the corresponding card
representation that the monitor will display on the draw. Let's further
assume that you have mastered some sort of incredible timing talent to hit
the button at exactly the perfect time to produce the honor card needed to
complete the royal. All we need now is to analyze a large number of
independent trials. Since you have brought up these two distinct drawing
methods, you have my vote for being in charge of gleaning the empirical
trial data that we will need to determine the best type of one card draw
speed that we can use. If you can contribute eight hours a day cautiously
observing a bank of players, you should be able to observe a couple of one
card draws each hour, and then log the length of delay that the player is
using,the immediate draw or comb the hair long type. Just a guess here, but
I am going to assume that we will need about five royal cycles worth of one
card draws for this trial data to be significant. Based on my two per hour
visual spottings at eight hours per day, you should be able to witness 5,840
draws per year. Using my 200,000 estimate of draws, your task should be
completed well within the lifespan of a lot of our members 34 years from
now. Will look forward to your posted results of the trial in 2039.
                                             Nudge

···

From: "gilbert_616" <gilbert_616@yahoo.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: RNG Operation

#23

I know that the original poster is serious in his question. And there are times
(many times) in probability and statistics that the "gut feeling" is quite different
from what the "numbers" say. The classic problem of polling a group of
people for a commmon birthdate is the obvious example.

In this case (the 5-card deal and the 10-card deal), you, as always, have to
look at the "total picture". You cannot isolate one part of it, while ignoring all
the other parts. If you look at each of the parts separately, computing the
probability of each separately, then combining them at the end, you will come
up with EXACTLY the same probability of getting the RF.

Aditionally, whether the RNG is going at 1 hertz or 10,000 hertz or 1 million
hertz, you have no idea what that rate is and it does not matter when you push
the button because you have no CONTROL over what will happen. That is
why there is so much time and money invested in the proper building of a
RNG,

The whole "ball of wax" rests on 10 cards, in a simulation, being pulled from a
deck. It does not matter how the 10 cards are selcted, as long as you have a
proper random number generator. The probablility of your getting a RF is
EXACTLY the same.

.....bl

#24

AFAIK, mimicing or simulating the game procedures isn't
a requirement. Here's the applicable reg:

"14.040 2. (b) For gaming devices that are representative of live
gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other
element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical
probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling
game. For other gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a
symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant."

···

On 1 Jun 2005 at 9:25, Charles wrote:

That brings up a question. Since here in Nevada, a VP game is supposed
to mimic a real deck, wouldn't the sequence of cards be set after a
shuffle?

#25

> So if you get dealt 4 to a Royal, pressing the DRAW button 3

seconds

> later will have a different result than pressing it 3 minutes

later?

No, it won't. The outcome is the same -- you have the same chance

of

turning over the last card to RF no matter when the identity of

that

card is determined. Given that the RNG is running through the

cards

a zillion times a second, and a millisecond's difference in

hitting

the deal button (or dropping the 5th coin) makes the

determination,

it's just not something that you can reasonably control. Even on

the

old old old machines, the RNG is still going a heck of a lot

faster

than you are.

The "psychological" thing here is even less appropriate. You

don't,

and can't, know what the last card is, no matter when you press

the

button. Therefore, it can't possibly affect you, even if it's
indeterminate until the draw button is pressed -- because the next
card out will always be the next card out, period. It can't

affect

your play, and it's not like you can count to 10 to make sure you

hit

the King of Hearts.

Wondering if it makes a difference *when* you push the button is

like

pondering whether God can make a stone so heavy that He cannot

lift

it. You don't know, you can't know, and it doesn't matter,

anyway.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Thomas <jfthomas3@c...> wrote:
----------------------------------------------

This is where the confusion is -- when people talk about the speed of
the vp machines. Sorry for not being clear Nudge. I was just trying
to ask a question and not making a statement about the 3 seconds vs
the 3 minutes.

I thought I read an article/post before where someone explained it as
follows: (machine speed therefore does not matter)

- machine deals you 10 cards (5 you can see and 5 underneath them)
and the machine can keep shuffling the remaining cards but, the 10
cards and their positions are already final (meaning you can hit the
DRAW button now, this afternoon, tomorrow, 3 weeks from now, the 5
cards hidden behind the dealt 5 cards are already made up).

Sample:
dealt cards are: AKQJ3 (AKQJ suited diamond)
If underneath the fifth card "3" is a 10d, you get the Royal while if
the 10 of diamond was underneath the Kd, of course you don't get the
Royal.

So, my question is: "Is this true or that somebody just made this
up?"

Thanks.
Gilbert

#26

Charles,

The wording of the regulation (14.040(b)) is:

(b) For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the
mathematical
probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must
be equal to the
mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live
gambling game. For other
gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a
position in any game
outcome must be constant.

As you can see, the key is the mathematical probability, thus allowing any
of the three known dealing styles.

B

···

At 02:25 AM 06/01/2005, you wrote:

That brings up a question. Since here in Nevada, a VP game is supposed
to mimic a real deck, wouldn't the sequence of cards be set after a
shuffle? If indeed the deck is being shuffled after the top 5 cards
are dealt, then shouldn't this information be disclosed-posted on the
machine? If I take a real deck of cards and deal the top 5, the rest
of the deck just sits there until I draw cards.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#27

Gilbert,

There is good anecdotal evidence that the early VP machines did deal this
way. Current IGT machines do not, and it is very probably that no
manufacturer does at present.
- machine deals you 10 cards (5 you can see and 5 underneath them)

and the machine can keep shuffling the remaining cards but, the 10
cards and their positions are already final (meaning you can hit the
DRAW button now, this afternoon, tomorrow, 3 weeks from now, the 5
cards hidden behind the dealt 5 cards are already made up).

Sample:
dealt cards are: AKQJ3 (AKQJ suited diamond)
If underneath the fifth card "3" is a 10d, you get the Royal while if
the 10 of diamond was underneath the Kd, of course you don't get the
Royal.

So, my question is: "Is this true or that somebody just made this
up?"

Thanks.
Gilbert

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#28

<<> So if you get dealt 4 to a Royal, pressing the DRAW button 3 seconds

later will have a different result than pressing it 3 minutes later?

No, it won't. The outcome is the same -- you have the same chance of
turning over the last card to RF no matter when the identity of that
card is determined.>>

You will have a different result, won't you? But mathematically it doesn't matter in the long run?

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards.
  NEW - Blackjack Strategy Cards +
              Updated Second Edition of
             "The Frugal Gambler."

#29

<<> So if you get dealt 4 to a Royal, pressing the DRAW button 3

seconds

> later will have a different result than pressing it 3 minutes

later?

No, it won't. The outcome is the same -- you have the same chance of
turning over the last card to RF no matter when the identity of that
card is determined.>>

You will have a different result, won't you? But mathematically it

doesn't

matter in the long run?
________________________________________

Thank you all for your input!
Looks like the bottom line is that the newer vp machines work
differently than the old machines. I should be able to explain this
to others quite easily if I am someday.

And for the example, I should be able to give something like:
-- Held 4 cards, pressing DRAW at 10:30am may give an Ace of diamond
and pressing DRAW at 10:31am may also have given me an Ace of diamond
or some other card --- meaning that 5th card has not been determined
yet until the DRAW button is pressed a 2nd time.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@f...> wrote: