vpFREE2 Forums

Revised Back-Rooming Queiy

#1

Let me rephrase this so I'm not insinuating anything (I wasn't in the
first place), and so it is a reasonable query.

To the people who are so concerned about being "back-roomed:" What
exactly are you doing that has you worried about being detained by
casino security? I go to Indian casino more frequently than I go to
Vegas, but I am more concerned about getting lung cancer from
second-hand smokers than getting kicked out or taken away.

Are you doing something more "suspicious" than just "winning?"

Again, don't read this as if I'm insinuating that you're cheating-- I
don't know if you are or not. But with the thousands of people who go
through the casinos every day, you're standing out for some reason.

I don't know if I can word this more "reasonably," and don't be so grumpy.

Rico

#2

Yes, we stand out for some reason - for winning.

Casinos HATE winners, no matter what their promotional literature might
indicate. Casinos are the worst losers in the world. Casinos will
implement controls on games that will cost them thousands of dollars if
it will save them from losing one dollar to an advantage player.

I am acquainted with dozens of card counters, and every one of them has
been tossed out of at least one casino for simply using their brains to
play a game offered by the casino and according to the casino's own
rules. If the casino simply asks us to leave - that's OK. We may not
like it very much, but that's just the way things are. But some
casinos feel the need to "teach the counter a lesson". That's when
treatment such as illegal detention in the bacroom starts. This kind
of thing becomes more likely at higher stakes, and especially if the
casino thinks you are playing on a team (whether or not you really are).

Such treatment for VP players is much more rare, but not totally
unheard of.

EE

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Rico Suave <lumpyland@g...> wrote:

Again, don't read this as if I'm insinuating that you're cheating-- I
don't know if you are or not. But with the thousands of people who go
through the casinos every day, you're standing out for some reason.

#3

for some reason you refuse to accept that it has long been the case
that just winning in 21 is often enough reason to be backroomed.
Those who say it won't ever happen with VP have thier heads in the
sand. By again asking "what we are doing" as if there is no reason
for reasonable fear sends a clear negative message that shows you
have no clue but possibly an agenda. Security/casino probe, perhaps?

Let me rephrase this so I'm not insinuating anything (I wasn't in

the

first place), and so it is a reasonable query.

To the people who are so concerned about being "back-roomed:" What
exactly are you doing that has you worried about being detained by
casino security? I go to Indian casino more frequently than I go

to

Vegas, but I am more concerned about getting lung cancer from
second-hand smokers than getting kicked out or taken away.

Are you doing something more "suspicious" than just "winning?"

Again, don't read this as if I'm insinuating that you're cheating--

I

don't know if you are or not. But with the thousands of people

who go

through the casinos every day, you're standing out for some reason.

I don't know if I can word this more "reasonably," and don't be so

grumpy.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Rico Suave <lumpyland@g...> wrote:

Rico

#4

Wow. Talk about paranoid... Someone questions you and you think they're both stupid and in on the "conspiracy."

Should I ask if you regularly line your hat with tin foil to prevent the casino security people from reading your thoughts on the floor? :wink:

Frankly, I think this discussion is just plain silly, and I'm not sure why I'm weighing in on it... but I find it highly unlikely that anyone would be "backroomed" in this litigious society, unless they were actually cheating -- and even then, if you're playing at a megaresort with billions of dollars tied up in their licensing, I just can't see them taking the chance.

Since it's CONSIDERABLY harder to cheat playing VP or slots (you need to gimmick the machines, which are fairly gimmick resistant) and by and large, the plays on VP or slots are negative or, at best, breakeven -- I don't think the casinos are going to bother.

Maybe if someone hit them as a team on a particularly good $10 or up play, where they could lose more than $10K or so if someone pops a Royal (instead of, you know, your standard $1-2 jackpots) I could see them backing you off.

But stop trying to scare the quarter VP players, it's just.... ludicrous.

···

On Jul 28, 2005, at 11:13 AM, Michael Boutot wrote:

for some reason you refuse to accept that it has long been the case
that just winning in 21 is often enough reason to be backroomed.
Those who say it won't ever happen with VP have thier heads in the
sand. By again asking "what we are doing" as if there is no reason
for reasonable fear sends a clear negative message that shows you
have no clue but possibly an agenda. Security/casino probe, perhaps?

#5

No need to xplain, most of us know you wasnt, but then some people cant
handle a hard ? anyway.

SOOO, what did you do to get backroomed anyway??

M J

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Rico Suave <lumpyland@g...> wrote:

Let me rephrase this so I'm not insinuating anything (I wasn't in the
first place), and so it is a reasonable query.

#6

No need to xplain, most of us know you wasnt, but then some people cant
handle a hard ? anyway.

SOOO, what did you do to get backroomed anyway??

M J

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Rico Suave <lumpyland@g...> wrote:

Let me rephrase this so I'm not insinuating anything (I wasn't in the
first place), and so it is a reasonable query.

#7

I play blackjack at the Rampart frequently. Same thing at the
Suncoast. I write down game notes in a notebook WITHIN PLAIN SIGHT of
the dealer and pit boss between shuffles when the cut card is out. I
win as often as I lose. I have never had any problem with any member
of the pit, and/or security. So it can't just be the winning as so
many state is the problem. But it might very well be the SIZE of the
winning that causes so many incidents.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Rico Suave <lumpyland@g...> wrote:

Let me rephrase this so I'm not insinuating anything (I wasn't in the
first place), and so it is a reasonable query.

To the people who are so concerned about being "back-roomed:" What
exactly are you doing that has you worried about being detained by
casino security? I go to Indian casino more frequently than I go to
Vegas, but I am more concerned about getting lung cancer from
second-hand smokers than getting kicked out or taken away.

Are you doing something more "suspicious" than just "winning?"

#8

Interesting, considering a casino "earns' its percentage, or house
advantage, on the winning bets it pays out.

reason.

Casinos HATE winners, no matter what their promotional literature

might

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "eecounter" <eecounter@h...> wrote:

indicate. Casinos are the worst losers in the world.

#9

Did you read the post where a woman on this board mentioned being
backroomed? Do you not know dozens of counters (who are not cheaters
by law) who have been backroomed? Leave it to a lawyer to not
understand what is "highly unlikely" & what is the undeniable truth.
This is not a thinking exercise to have opinions on. It is
doucumented fact. Ludicrous is the word indeed.

> for some reason you refuse to accept that it has long been the

case

> that just winning in 21 is often enough reason to be backroomed.
> Those who say it won't ever happen with VP have thier heads in the
> sand. By again asking "what we are doing" as if there is no reason
> for reasonable fear sends a clear negative message that shows you
> have no clue but possibly an agenda. Security/casino probe,

perhaps?

Wow. Talk about paranoid... Someone questions you and you think
they're both stupid and in on the "conspiracy."

Should I ask if you regularly line your hat with tin foil to

prevent

the casino security people from reading your thoughts on the

floor? :wink:

Frankly, I think this discussion is just plain silly, and I'm not
sure why I'm weighing in on it... but I find it highly unlikely

that

anyone would be "backroomed" in this litigious society, unless

they

were actually cheating -- and even then, if you're playing at a
megaresort with billions of dollars tied up in their licensing, I
just can't see them taking the chance.

Since it's CONSIDERABLY harder to cheat playing VP or slots (you

need

to gimmick the machines, which are fairly gimmick resistant) and

by

and large, the plays on VP or slots are negative or, at best,
breakeven -- I don't think the casinos are going to bother.

Maybe if someone hit them as a team on a particularly good $10 or

up

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Thomas <jfthomas3@c...> wrote:

On Jul 28, 2005, at 11:13 AM, Michael Boutot wrote:
play, where they could lose more than $10K or so if someone pops a
Royal (instead of, you know, your standard $1-2 jackpots) I could
see them backing you off.

But stop trying to scare the quarter VP players, it's just....
ludicrous.

#10

Not a hard ? but an ignorant one. At least he has company in the land
of the oblivious.

> Let me rephrase this so I'm not insinuating anything (I wasn't in

the

> first place), and so it is a reasonable query.
>
No need to xplain, most of us know you wasnt, but then some people

cant

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@y...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Rico Suave <lumpyland@g...> wrote:
handle a hard ? anyway.

SOOO, what did you do to get backroomed anyway??

M J

#11

But, isn't this a VP group? How many VP counters are there? LOL

We are getting our apples and our oranges mixed up.

I would still like to hear from a VP player who has been taken to the backroom and beaten
up.

.....bl

···

-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Boutot" <vegas_iwish@y...> wrote:

Did you read the post where a woman on this board mentioned being
backroomed? Do you not know dozens of counters (who are not cheaters
by law) who have been backroomed? Leave it to a lawyer to not
understand what is "highly unlikely" & what is the undeniable truth.
This is not a thinking exercise to have opinions on. It is
doucumented fact. Ludicrous is the word indeed.

#12

Ben Franklin wisely counciled at the meeting to produce the
declaration of Independence thet "We must all hang together or we
most certainly will hang seperately". We have people here even
arguing whether the casino or just the house edge is the enemy which
is mind boggling. The blindfolds are on & the last cigarette is
nearing the nub. BJ went to 6/5. Good VP plays are drying up. When
are you going to start worrying? There is no seperation here - must
battle on all fronts or watch it all dry up.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@y...>
wrote:

But, isn't this a VP group? How many VP counters are there? LOL

We are getting our apples and our oranges mixed up.

I would still like to hear from a VP player who has been taken to

the backroom and beaten

up.

.....bl

-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Boutot" <vegas_iwish@y...>

wrote:

> Did you read the post where a woman on this board mentioned being
> backroomed? Do you not know dozens of counters (who are not

cheaters

> by law) who have been backroomed? Leave it to a lawyer to not
> understand what is "highly unlikely" & what is the undeniable

truth.

···

> This is not a thinking exercise to have opinions on. It is
> doucumented fact. Ludicrous is the word indeed.

#13

Did you read the post where a woman on this board mentioned being
backroomed? Do you not know dozens of counters (who are not cheaters
by law) who have been backroomed? Leave it to a lawyer to not
understand what is "highly unlikely" & what is the undeniable truth.
This is not a thinking exercise to have opinions on. It is
doucumented fact. Ludicrous is the word indeed.

Yep. I read a post on that thar Interweb by one person who said they had been backroomed but they couldn't talk about it.

Therefore it *must* be "undeniable truth." How silly of me to have used my intellect to doubt you.

You know, I read on the Internet that the moon landings were faked, too -- and last I checked, the Flat Earth Society has a web page.

I also like how everyone who disagrees with you or dares to question you receives a personal attack in response. That's what I call good arguing, maybe I'll use that in my next court case.

With thinking like that, you'd better go stock up on the tin foil hats, before the CIA puts Reynolds Wrap out of business.

#14

The only thing to "worry" about is the "bottom line" of the casino's balance sheet. They
are in business to make money and will "play with" the blackjack return and VP tables,
appropriate to keeping it a paying biusiness. I assure you they will do all they can to not
have their business "dry up". There is no way we can "fight" that, aside from luring more
"bad players" into the casinos.

.....bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Boutot" <vegas_iwish@y...> wrote:

When
are you going to start worrying? There is no seperation here - must
battle on all fronts or watch it all dry up.

#15

huh? somebody want to explain this to me?

···

On 7/28/05, Charles <fromthevault@yahoo.com> wrote:

Interesting, considering a casino "earns' its percentage, or house
advantage, on the winning bets it pays out.

#16

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Boutot" <vegas_iwish@y...>
wrote:

Not a hard ? but an ignorant one. At least he has company in the land
of the oblivious.

BUT you still can not answer it & you try to insult others to prove
what, ???
SOOO AGAIN What did you do to get backroomed???
M J

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@y...> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Rico Suave <lumpyland@g...> wrote:
> > Let me rephrase this so I'm not insinuating anything (I wasn't in
the
> > first place), and so it is a reasonable query.
> >
> No need to xplain, most of us know you wasnt, but then some people
cant
> handle a hard ? anyway.
>
> SOOO, what did you do to get backroomed anyway??
>
> M J

#17

> Did you read the post where a woman on this board mentioned being
> backroomed? Do you not know dozens of counters (who are not

cheaters

> by law) who have been backroomed? Leave it to a lawyer to not
> understand what is "highly unlikely" & what is the undeniable

truth.

> This is not a thinking exercise to have opinions on. It is
> doucumented fact. Ludicrous is the word indeed.

Yep. I read a post on that thar Interweb by one person who said

they

had been backroomed but they couldn't talk about it.

Therefore it *must* be "undeniable truth." How silly of me to

have

used my intellect to doubt you.

You know, I read on the Internet that the moon landings were

faked,

too -- and last I checked, the Flat Earth Society has a web page.

I also like how everyone who disagrees with you or dares to

question

you receives a personal attack in response. That's what I call

good

arguing, maybe I'll use that in my next court case.

With thinking like that, you'd better go stock up on the tin foil
hats, before the CIA puts Reynolds Wrap out of business.

carefull, he might think thats a hard ? & be really really upset!!!!
LMAO
M J

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Thomas <jfthomas3@c...> wrote:

#18

are you for real? Casino suits make mistakes all the time like the rest
of us. Unfortunately they have been right recently. The experts laughed
when 6-5 BJ came out. Said no 1 would play. Wrong. VP going same way.
Not playing bad games & spreading the word we can at least do. It is
our opportunities that ARE drying up - read at least that deep. That
last line is beneath your normal level of post though this repeated
attempt to trivialize backroomings or ignore them because you know of
no VP 1s is troubling. If we can only get more lambs for the slaughter
as it implies then let's give up now.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@y...>
wrote:

The only thing to "worry" about is the "bottom line" of the casino's

balance sheet. They

are in business to make money and will "play with" the blackjack

return and VP tables,

appropriate to keeping it a paying biusiness. I assure you they will

do all they can to not

have their business "dry up". There is no way we can "fight" that,

aside from luring more

"bad players" into the casinos.

.....bl

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Boutot" <vegas_iwish@y...>

wrote:

···

> When
> are you going to start worrying? There is no seperation here - must
> battle on all fronts or watch it all dry up.

#19

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Boutot" <vegas_iwish@y...>
wrote:

are you for real? Casino suits make mistakes all the time like the

rest

of us. Unfortunately they have been right recently. The experts

laughed

when 6-5 BJ came out. Said no 1 would play. Wrong. VP going same

way.

Not playing bad games & spreading the word we can at least do. It

is

our opportunities that ARE drying up - read at least that deep.

That

last line is beneath your normal level of post though this repeated
attempt to trivialize backroomings or ignore them because you know

of

no VP 1s is troubling. If we can only get more lambs for the

slaughter

···

as it implies then let's give up now.

**********************************************************************

Casinos owe us NUTHIN, nada, squat, s^%$, much less a living,
dont bitch, just move on & adjust
Thought about Poker?
how about Reno-Reno?? Check out my TR on the Peppermill.

How about adjusting to going for cheap vacations, free food, playing
games that sometimes we can be on the right side of the bell curve &
bring home some bucks, free drinks, the challange of playin it right
all the time?

The fun of finding new games & figuring out the rite way? hunting
for machines not on our data base so we can share the wealth ??

Pissing off those who want to keep the info for themselves??

Lots of wonderfull reasons we luv this game!!!!!!

M J

#20

The thing that is most silly about this discussion is those who
voice "opinions" about back-rooming when they simply have
no basis for forming a meaningful opinion.

Card counters are backroomed quite regularly. I know several
players personally who have been backroomed. The point is to
intimidate them so that they will not return. They are photographed
and put in the "Griffin Book" alongside criminals and known cheats.

Many (if not most) pit personnel are trained to view card counting
as a form of cheating, despite the fact that Nevada courts have
repeated ruled that using one's brain to gain an advantage is
entirely legal.

The only thing that is "highly unlikely" is that a successful card
counter will be allowed to play for any length of time after being
identified (or merely suspected) as counting cards.

···

On Thursday 28 July 2005 09:24 am, John Thomas wrote:

Frankly, I think this discussion is just plain silly, and I'm not
sure why I'm weighing in on it... but I find it highly unlikely that
anyone would be "backroomed" in this litigious society, unless they
were actually cheating -- and even then, if you're playing at a
megaresort with billions of dollars tied up in their licensing, I
just can't see them taking the chance.