vpFREE2 Forums

Revised Back-Rooming Queiy

#21

Gee folks.. In order to get backroomed one has to do something really
bad....Like cheating, winning, wearing a shirt with color house
doesn't like or combing ones hair not to the liking of casino
employees. Actually house doesn't have any reason to ask you to leave
and I would guess one could be backroomed for no reason. Of course
they wouldn't waste their time to do without a reason. My spin on
this, In Vegas don't mess with the house because they have the law on
their side.

Cheers....Jeep
.

>
> Frankly, I think this discussion is just plain silly, and I'm not
> sure why I'm weighing in on it... but I find it highly unlikely

that

> anyone would be "backroomed" in this litigious society, unless

they

···

. --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Steve Jacobs <jacobs@x> wrote:

On Thursday 28 July 2005 09:24 am, John Thomas wrote:
> were actually cheating -- and even then, if you're playing at a
> megaresort with billions of dollars tied up in their licensing, I
> just can't see them taking the chance.

The thing that is most silly about this discussion is those who
voice "opinions" about back-rooming when they simply have
no basis for forming a meaningful opinion.

Card counters are backroomed quite regularly. I know several
players personally who have been backroomed. The point is to
intimidate them so that they will not return. They are photographed
and put in the "Griffin Book" alongside criminals and known cheats.

Many (if not most) pit personnel are trained to view card counting
as a form of cheating, despite the fact that Nevada courts have
repeated ruled that using one's brain to gain an advantage is
entirely legal.

The only thing that is "highly unlikely" is that a successful card
counter will be allowed to play for any length of time after being
identified (or merely suspected) as counting cards.

#22

Well, you can't argue with the truth. Right on, brother mklpryy24!
It is absolutely true that they owe us nothing, except to try to get
us to spend our money in their casinos.

When things completely dry up, I'll try something else. LV and VP
are not the be-all and end-all of civilization's enjoyment. For
now, I like the spirit of what has been just said here and will
continue to enjoy my "jaunts" to LV.

bl

Casinos owe us NUTHIN, nada, squat, s^%$, much less a living,
dont bitch, just move on & adjust
Thought about Poker?
how about Reno-Reno?? Check out my TR on the Peppermill.

How about adjusting to going for cheap vacations, free food,

playing

games that sometimes we can be on the right side of the bell curve

&

bring home some bucks, free drinks, the challange of playin it

right

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@y...> wrote:

all the time?

The fun of finding new games & figuring out the rite way? hunting
for machines not on our data base so we can share the wealth ??

Pissing off those who want to keep the info for themselves??

Lots of wonderfull reasons we luv this game!!!!!!

M J

#23

Isn't card counting, that we all KNOW is legal, analogous to (but,
admitedly, not identical to) reading magazines at the drug store,
without buying one. It is legal to read, as we all know.

But, sometimes, at some places, the store will "bag" the more
interesting magazines to keep us from "browsing without buying".

The casinos are "protecting" their bottom line (IMHO).

bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Steve Jacobs <jacobs@x> wrote:

Many (if not most) pit personnel are trained to view card counting
as a form of cheating, despite the fact that Nevada courts have
repeated ruled that using one's brain to gain an advantage is
entirely legal.

The only thing that is "highly unlikely" is that a successful card
counter will be allowed to play for any length of time after being
identified (or merely suspected) as counting cards.

#24

I don't think that analogy is valid, for a simple reason -- anyone
off the street can go into a drug store, and watch people come
in and read and/or buy magazines, and clearly identify who
only reads the magazines and who buys and who flips through
a few pages before buying. The difference between buyers
and readers is obvious.

Now contrast that to blackjack players. A typical person off the
street will find it virtually impossible to watch two blackjack players
for a short while and identify which one is counting cards and
which one isn't (provided, of course, that the card counter isn't
a complete clod and has at least some ability to disguise his/her
play).

Perhaps a better analogy would be a library that kicks out
those who read quickly or with the highest level of comprehension.
Or a University that expels the top 10% of students.

···

On Friday 29 July 2005 03:49 am, bornloser1537 wrote:

Isn't card counting, that we all KNOW is legal, analogous to (but,
admitedly, not identical to) reading magazines at the drug store,
without buying one. It is legal to read, as we all know.

#25

I'm with M J on this one. If it's still FUN. If it feels good to
play. If you're enjoying yourself in a casino. If the casino is
clean, you feel safe playing there, the employees are friendly, and
the machines are new and up-to-date, that's all that the
casino "owes" you on a gambling trip.

If the casino has also made you a nice offer, and promised certain
comps for playing a specified amount of money, than you should
expect them to follow through with their promises. I do believe
that 99.% of the time they do just that. If they don't, you probably
have a legimate complain. This can often be resolved with a polite
conversation with your host. If this doesn't work, take your
business down the street!

If you find that you're playing primarily for comps, rather than
pure enjoyment, you are likely to start playing more daily coin-in
than you really had planned on putting at risk. If, in addition,
you are disappointed by the freebies generated by this extra play,
it can make for a very unpleasant gambling trip.

If this is happening to you frequently, perhaps it's appropriate to
take a VP "time-out".

Just my opinion, of course.

Babe

···

----------------------------------------------
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@y...> wrote:

Casinos owe us NUTHIN, nada, squat, s^%$, much less a living, dont
bitch, just move on & adjust..................... How about
adjusting to going for cheap vacations, free food,playing games
that sometimes we can be on the right side of the bell curve &
bring home some bucks, free drinks, the challange of playin it right
all the time? The fun of finding new games & figuring out the rite
way? hunting for machines not on our data base so we can share the
wealth ??

.............. Lots of wonderfull reasons we luv this game!!!!!!
M J
----------------------------------------

#26

I can't buy your analogies Steve . Libraries want readers, Schools want good students .
Casinos don't want good players.
A better analogy would be the store that bars you for only buying items on sale and using a coupon at the same time.
There is no store or company in the world that wants customers that they can't make money from, same for Casinos.

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Steve Jacobs
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 10:23 AM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Revised Back-Rooming Queiy

  On Friday 29 July 2005 03:49 am, bornloser1537 wrote:
  > Isn't card counting, that we all KNOW is legal, analogous to (but,
  > admitedly, not identical to) reading magazines at the drug store,
  > without buying one. It is legal to read, as we all know.

  Perhaps a better analogy would be a library that kicks out
  those who read quickly or with the highest level of comprehension.
  Or a University that expels the top 10% of students.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#27

I can't buy your analogies Steve . Libraries want readers, Schools want
good students . Casinos don't want good players.

You'd be hard pressed to prove that based on _any_ of their advertising.
They lure in players with phrases like "you're a winner here" and
"win win win" etc. If truth in advertising were strictly applied to casinos,
they'd be required to say "winners thrown out daily" and "only losers welcome"

A better analogy would be the store that bars you for only buying items on
sale and using a coupon at the same time. There is no store or company in
the world that wants customers that they can't make money from, same for
Casinos.

That's certainly a valid point, and I'm quite aware that casinos are a
business. I just don't think they should be allowed to lie endlessly about
what they are really "selling."

···

On Friday 29 July 2005 10:22 pm, Albert Pearson wrote:

#28

Neither action, in the two examples cited below, negatively affects
the "bottom line" of the institutions involved (i.e. the library or
the University). In fact, each finds that its situation is "enhanced"
by not doing the "action". The library has a seat open up quicker
with the fast reader and the university has greater prestige due to
the better performances of the top 10% of its students.

bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Steve Jacobs <jacobs@x> wrote:

Perhaps a better analogy would be a library that kicks out
those who read quickly or with the highest level of comprehension.
Or a University that expels the top 10% of students.

#29

My point was simply that these places offer an activitity for whoever
wishes to participate, and do not bar those who happen to excel
at that activity. Casinos present a patently false image through their
advertising, as if they want players to win, when nothing is further from
the truth. They don't want winners, nor do they tolerate them, with the
single exception of live poker where the casino has no vested interest
in the talent of the players.

···

On Saturday 30 July 2005 04:50 am, bornloser1537 wrote:

Neither action, in the two examples cited below, negatively affects
the "bottom line" of the institutions involved (i.e. the library or
the University). In fact, each finds that its situation is "enhanced"
by not doing the "action". The library has a seat open up quicker
with the fast reader and the university has greater prestige due to
the better performances of the top 10% of its students.

#30

Of course, I can only agree and defer to A.P.'s "better" analogy.

bl

I can't buy your analogies Steve . Libraries want readers, Schools

want good students .

Casinos don't want good players.
A better analogy would be the store that bars you for only buying

items on sale and using a coupon at the same time.

There is no store or company in the world that wants customers that

they can't make money from, same for Casinos.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Pearson" <a-p@s...> wrote:

Regards
A.P.

#31

I think it is pretty well documented that some types of non cheating
advantage gamblers have been detained by casino security and sometimes even
arrested. You can argue the justice of it or the purpose, but if you argue
that it hasn't happened you look either silly or ignorant IMO. As I have
already mentioned, it has not been a problem for vp players. Incidentally,
tin foil beanies last forever and you need only one
http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
John Thomas
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 2:30 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Revised Back-Rooming Queiy

Did you read the post where a woman on this board mentioned being
backroomed? Do you not know dozens of counters (who are not cheaters
by law) who have been backroomed? Leave it to a lawyer to not
understand what is "highly unlikely" & what is the undeniable truth.
This is not a thinking exercise to have opinions on. It is
doucumented fact. Ludicrous is the word indeed.

Yep. I read a post on that thar Interweb by one person who said they
had been backroomed but they couldn't talk about it.

Therefore it *must* be "undeniable truth." How silly of me to have
used my intellect to doubt you.

You know, I read on the Internet that the moon landings were faked,
too -- and last I checked, the Flat Earth Society has a web page.

I also like how everyone who disagrees with you or dares to question
you receives a personal attack in response. That's what I call good
arguing, maybe I'll use that in my next court case.

With thinking like that, you'd better go stock up on the tin foil
hats, before the CIA puts Reynolds Wrap out of business.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#32

I do not recall a case where a vp player has been beaten. My memory is
extremely fallible, but I believe I recall a case where a player was
detained at the Regent when it first opened. He capitalized on a faulty
card reader as I recall.

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
bornloser1537
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 2:22 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Revised Back-Rooming Queiy

I would still like to hear from a VP player who has been taken to the
backroom and beaten
up.

.....bl

#33

I agree. This is a truly false and odious practice on the part of the casinos.
But, just sit through half an evening of commercial television, or leaf through
any magazine or newspaper. I think that you will find that this course of action
is not reserved to casinos.

The situation always will be "caveat emptor". We should not be so naive as to
believe everything that we see or hear, especially as told to us by the casinos.
I always carry a large beaker of salt with me <smile>.

bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Steve Jacobs <jacobs@x> wrote:

Casinos present a patently false image through their
advertising,

#34

Quite true. One of my favorite "Dilbert" cartoons is one that ends
"There's a fine line between marketing and grand theft".

···

On Sunday 31 July 2005 06:37 am, bornloser1537 wrote:

I agree. This is a truly false and odious practice on the part of the
casinos. But, just sit through half an evening of commercial television, or
leaf through any magazine or newspaper. I think that you will find that
this course of action is not reserved to casinos.

The situation always will be "caveat emptor". We should not be so naive as
to believe everything that we see or hear, especially as told to us by the
casinos. I always carry a large beaker of salt with me <smile>.

#35

It is a tough moral deilemma when we run into things like this. Do we return to
the establishment and return to the merchant that "extra" $10 bill that was in
the change that he gave you or do we "pocket" it and say that he made a
mistake and that is too bad?

bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler" <omnibibulous1@c...> wrote:

He capitalized on a faulty
card reader as I recall.

Chandler

#36

I understand. See my "moral dilemma" reply above.

bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler" <omnibibulous1@c...> wrote:

I think it is pretty well documented that some types of non cheating
advantage gamblers have been detained

#37

Yep. I read a post on that thar Interweb by one person who said

they

had been backroomed but they couldn't talk about it.

Therefore it *must* be "undeniable truth." How silly of me to

have

used my intellect to doubt you.

You know, I read on the Internet that the moon landings were

faked,

too -- and last I checked, the Flat Earth Society has a web page.

I also like how everyone who disagrees with you or dares to

question

you receives a personal attack in response. That's what I call

good

arguing, maybe I'll use that in my next court case.

With thinking like that, you'd better go stock up on the tin foil
hats, before the CIA puts Reynolds Wrap out of business.

You need not believe my post. All you have to do is check the
public record of those cases which have gone to court. The casinos
really do not want to go to court but poorly trained personel and
their use of a loose canon like the Griffen agency has put casinos
in this position.
There are other things that are just not right:
The Venitan had to fire 3 execs who conspired to rig a money drawing
in favor of a certain player. The gaming board fined the casino
(probably should have suspended their licence for a month or so) and
they fired those 3. They did not revoke their gaming licence? and
one of them is currently an exec for a different casino.
The Golden Nugget refused to pay a jackpot of nearly 50,000 but were
forced to pay it but fined only about 30,000.
Victoria