Can someone explain how the RNG along with the card selection to be
drawn in vp works in the 'Deuces Wild' game?
As we all know, the 'Deuces' or the number '2' come out more frequently
in the Deuces Wild game than in the other games such as JoB, Bonus
Poker, DB, DDB, TDB, etc.
How does this compare to the frequency of drawing the "Ace" in the
Super Aces or Triple Double Bonus game?
Thanks for your input!
gilbert
gilbert_616 wrote:
Can someone explain how the RNG along with the card selection to be
drawn in vp works in the 'Deuces Wild' game?As we all know, the 'Deuces' or the number '2' come out more
frequently in the Deuces Wild game than in the other games such as
JoB, Bonus Poker, DB, DDB, TDB, etc.
You're just as likely to be dealt a deuce in any of these games (for
it to be otherwise would defy logic). However, you have much greater
cause to hold a deuce when dealt to you in DW than the other games ...
thus, you'll see a deuce present in the final hand more often in DW.
- H.
'Deuces' or '2s'
As we all know, the 'Deuces' or the number '2' come out more frequently
in the Deuces Wild game than in the other games such as JoB, Bonus
Poker, DB, DDB, TDB, etc.
Just where did you get this little nugget of fiction from? Did you read a
book? I suppose that aces and picture cards show up more often in Aces and
Faces then. Or, perhaps when I play KBJW, I'll see the card showing the guy
with the funny pointed hat more often than any other card. I guess when I
play super aces I can look forward to being overrun with those bullets, huh.
Why do I have a suspicion that your unfamiliarity with the technical
operation of a random number generator is the least of your problems?
Nudge
From: "gilbert_616"
Subject: [vpFREE] Random Number Generation (RNG), cards drawn, and the
We do?
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gilbert_616" <gilbert_616@...> wrote:
As we all know, the 'Deuces' or the number '2' come out more frequently
in the Deuces Wild game than in the other games such as JoB, Bonus
Poker, DB, DDB, TDB, etc.gilbert
Obviously not the universal "we", but I have to agree with Gilbert in that it "seems" that more deuces show
up than in other non-deuces wild games. It would be interesting if one of you skeptics would play Deuces Wild
for an hour while counting how many deuces appear (even in redraws) and then any other non-deuces wild game
for an hour also and once again count all the deuces that appear and I believe you will find a disproportionate difference
in the amount of deuces shown between the two games. Hmmm, maybe a good project for Dancer's next article
along with the game manufacturers explanation for the disparity.
Jackie
----- Original Message -----
From: bornloser1537
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 6:42 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Random Number Generation (RNG), cards drawn, and the 'Deuces' or '2s'
We do?
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gilbert_616" <gilbert_616@...> wrote:
>
> As we all know, the 'Deuces' or the number '2' come out more frequently
> in the Deuces Wild game than in the other games such as JoB, Bonus
> Poker, DB, DDB, TDB, etc.
>
> gilbert
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Why not help the guy instead of acting like an ass. Not everyone that
uses the forum is a "super duper poker pro." We have to many elitist
wannabe experts here.
From: "gilbert_616"
Subject: [vpFREE] Random Number Generation (RNG), cards drawn, and
the
'Deuces' or '2s'
> As we all know, the 'Deuces' or the number '2' come out more
frequently
> in the Deuces Wild game than in the other games such as JoB, Bonus
> Poker, DB, DDB, TDB, etc.Just where did you get this little nugget of fiction from? Did you
read a
book? I suppose that aces and picture cards show up more often in
Aces and
Faces then. Or, perhaps when I play KBJW, I'll see the card showing
the guy
with the funny pointed hat more often than any other card. I guess
when I
play super aces I can look forward to being overrun with those
bullets, huh.
Why do I have a suspicion that your unfamiliarity with the technical
operation of a random number generator is the least of your
problems?
Well, they just can't help it.......like my dad always said. If it
smells like an a-hole it probably is an a-hole.
marvele66 wrote:
Why not help the guy instead of acting like an ass. Not everyone that
uses the forum is a "super duper poker pro." We have to many elitist
wannabe experts here.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>,
"nudge51" <nudge51@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: "gilbert_616"
> Subject: [vpFREE] Random Number Generation (RNG), cards drawn, and
the
> 'Deuces' or '2s'
>
>
> > As we all know, the 'Deuces' or the number '2' come out more
frequently
> > in the Deuces Wild game than in the other games such as JoB, Bonus
> > Poker, DB, DDB, TDB, etc.
>
> Just where did you get this little nugget of fiction from? Did you
read a
> book? I suppose that aces and picture cards show up more often in
Aces and
> Faces then. Or, perhaps when I play KBJW, I'll see the card showing
the guy
> with the funny pointed hat more often than any other card. I guess
when I
> play super aces I can look forward to being overrun with those
bullets, huh.
> Why do I have a suspicion that your unfamiliarity with the technical
> operation of a random number generator is the least of your
problems?
> Nudge
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Jackie and Gilbert,
I'm going to take an educated guess here. When we're playing ducks not only is that the first card we look for but they stand out with the "WILD" on them. Play double bonus, get dealt A-A-A-K-2 and you're just not likely to notice it's a 2. Your autopilot will classify the 2 as a low card, just like it would a 3, 4, etc.
The feeling that we see more ducks when playing a deuces game probably comes from this. Just like we often see patterns in randomness that aren't really there.
Possibly with a few execptions in isolated joints every commercial casino (excepting a few racinos and some native casinos) have machines that select cards in a way that every card has an equal chance to be dealt or drawn. I've posted many times exactly how this works. If you need more information please feel free to ask.
And I'm sorry that too many idiots on this list think you should be flamed simply for making a statement that shows you don't understand how the machines work. Even Bob Dancer didn't how IGT machines are programmed until recently and, based on his writing, may not really believe it yet so there's nothing wrong with having mistaken beliefs about the inner workings.
Thanks,
Bill
At 07:53 AM 12/9/2007, you wrote:
Obviously not the universal "we", but I have to agree with Gilbert in that it "seems" that more deuces show
up than in other non-deuces wild games. It would be interesting if one of you skeptics would play Deuces Wild
for an hour while counting how many deuces appear (even in redraws) and then any other non-deuces wild game
for an hour also and once again count all the deuces that appear and I believe you will find a disproportionate difference
in the amount of deuces shown between the two games. Hmmm, maybe a good project for Dancer's next article
along with the game manufacturers explanation for the disparity.Jackie
----- Original Message -----
From: bornloser1537
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 6:42 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Random Number Generation (RNG), cards drawn, and the 'Deuces' or '2s'We do?
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gilbert_616" <gilbert_616@...> wrote:
>
> As we all know, the 'Deuces' or the number '2' come out more frequently
> in the Deuces Wild game than in the other games such as JoB, Bonus
> Poker, DB, DDB, TDB, etc.
>
> gilbert[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
I'm afraid I don't agree that deuces show up more when playing Deuces Wild.
I always get Aces with a kicker on the deal when playing multi-play deuces
wild! But do I get 2222x on the deal? Naaaaaaahhhhhhhh.
On Dec 9, 2007 7:53 AM, Jackie <ajackiek@cox.net> wrote:
Obviously not the universal "we", but I have to agree with Gilbert in
that it "seems" that more deuces show
up than in other non-deuces wild games. It would be interesting if one of
you skeptics would play Deuces Wild
for an hour while counting how many deuces appear (even in redraws) and
then any other non-deuces wild game
for an hour also and once again count all the deuces that appear and I
believe you will find a disproportionate difference
in the amount of deuces shown between the two games. Hmmm, maybe a good
project for Dancer's next article
along with the game manufacturers explanation for the disparity.Jackie
----- Original Message -----
From: bornloser1537
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 6:42 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Random Number Generation (RNG), cards drawn, and the
'Deuces' or '2s'We do?
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>, "gilbert_616"
<gilbert_616@...> wrote:
>
> As we all know, the 'Deuces' or the number '2' come out more frequently
> in the Deuces Wild game than in the other games such as JoB, Bonus
> Poker, DB, DDB, TDB, etc.
>
> gilbert[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Well said Bill!
Bill Coleman wrote:
Hi Jackie and Gilbert,
I'm going to take an educated guess here. When we're playing ducks
not only is that the first card we look for but they stand out with
the "WILD" on them. Play double bonus, get dealt A-A-A-K-2 and you're
just not likely to notice it's a 2. Your autopilot will classify the
2 as a low card, just like it would a 3, 4, etc.The feeling that we see more ducks when playing a deuces game
probably comes from this. Just like we often see patterns in
randomness that aren't really there.Possibly with a few execptions in isolated joints every commercial
casino (excepting a few racinos and some native casinos) have
machines that select cards in a way that every card has an equal
chance to be dealt or drawn. I've posted many times exactly how this
works. If you need more information please feel free to ask.And I'm sorry that too many idiots on this list think you should be
flamed simply for making a statement that shows you don't understand
how the machines work. Even Bob Dancer didn't how IGT machines are
programmed until recently and, based on his writing, may not really
believe it yet so there's nothing wrong with having mistaken beliefs
about the inner workings.Thanks,
Bill
>Obviously not the universal "we", but I have to agree with Gilbert
>in that it "seems" that more deuces show
>up than in other non-deuces wild games. It would be interesting if
>one of you skeptics would play Deuces Wild
>for an hour while counting how many deuces appear (even in redraws)
>and then any other non-deuces wild game
>for an hour also and once again count all the deuces that appear and
>I believe you will find a disproportionate difference
>in the amount of deuces shown between the two games. Hmmm, maybe a
>good project for Dancer's next article
>along with the game manufacturers explanation for the disparity.
>
>Jackie
>
> From: bornloser1537
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 6:42 AM
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Random Number Generation (RNG), cards
> drawn, and the 'Deuces' or '2s'
>
>
> We do?
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>,
"gilbert_616" <gilbert_616@...> wrote:
> >
> > As we all know, the 'Deuces' or the number '2' come out more
frequently
> > in the Deuces Wild game than in the other games such as JoB, Bonus
> > Poker, DB, DDB, TDB, etc.
> >
> > gilbert
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
<http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
At 07:53 AM 12/9/2007, you wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
Can someone explain how the RNG along with the card selection to be
drawn in vp works in the 'Deuces Wild' game?
As we all know, the 'Deuces' or the number '2' come out more
frequently
in the Deuces Wild game than in the other games such as JoB, Bonus
Poker, DB, DDB, TDB, etc.
I know my first feeling on this question has been stated already, that
is, with WILD printed on the card it becomes more obvious. However,
maybe we should ask Gilbert exactly why he believes this to be the
situation. Maybe we're missing something.
Dick
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gilbert_616" <gilbert_616@...> wrote:
Bill Coleman wrote: Even Bob Dancer didn't how IGT machines are
programmed until recently and, based on his writing, may not really
believe it yet
Hardly. Bill Coleman periodically slams me and attributes this to me
that I didn't say.
In the series of posts Coleman is probably referring to, I posted that
"IF we assume that we hit the button at the same time, then . . ." and
that is/was a true statement. Coleman decided that since it is unlikely
that buttons are hit at the same time that I was incorrect. I wasn't
addressing how likely that was, and he wasn't addressing how likely the
consequence was once we make that assumption. He was addressing
something totally different that what I was saying.
Bob Dancer
For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com
'Deuces' or '2s'
Why not help the guy instead of acting like an ass.
Gilbert_616 has been posting on this forum for years. If he truly believes
that, in any gaming jurisdiction that is stringently controlled and
regulated to offer fair games, any video poker game would deal one card rank
more often than another, then I can't help him. With the tremendous
collection of valid information that is available just on vpFREE, all one
needs is to invest a modicum of time studying the already assembled
resources to start down the path to become a "Pro". No, I don't mean a
professional. I mean becoming proficient at the games one plays.
>We have to many elitist
wannabe experts here.
I don't want to be anything. Elitist? Expert? I can't say, but I will say
this. I have been playing video poker for more than 20 years, and full time
for the past six, and have never had a losing year. On a rocky climb on any
mountain range, even the witless burro will begin his ascent after only mild
prodding from a pair of spurs.
Nudge
From: "marvele66" <marvele66@yahoo.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Random Number Generation (RNG), cards drawn, and the
Can someone explain how the RNG along with the card selection to be
drawn in vp works in the 'Deuces Wild' game?
As we all know, the 'Deuces' or the number '2' come out more
frequently
in the Deuces Wild game than in the other games such as JoB, Bonus
Poker, DB, DDB, TDB, etc.How does this compare to the frequency of drawing the "Ace" in the
Super Aces or Triple Double Bonus game?Thanks for your input!
gilbert
In the State of Nevada the RNG is computer tested extensively by
Gaming before it's placed in the machine. If you could catch a flaw
just by eyesight it would have been a no-brainer for gaming to catch
it. I'm not all boned up on the law but Gaming has extensive
regulations governing video pokers. Regulations like "there can be
no internal or external bias", "any card, ball or die must have an
equal chance of appearing." The regulations go so far as to state
something like "any machine manufacturer doing business in the State
of Nevada cannot make gaffed equipment for other jurisdictions."
I once read in a Dan Paymar book that the tests Gaming runs on these
chips are called "chi squared tests" and "correlation tests." Does
anyone have any knowledge of how these tests work or what chi-squared
and correlation mean?
Per the usual, Drainbramage's jokes were the funniest on this
subject.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gilbert_616" <gilbert_616@...> wrote:
I was not slamming you, I was simply stating the fact that the way these programs are designed are rather complicated and even you, as an expert, are not always accurate. Not that these differences matter mathematically but here's what I'm referring to.
In the summer of 2006 you finally found out that IGT Game Kings (and other machines of similar vintage) do not select 10 cards initially but 5 and then randomly select draw cards later. This makes it impossible for someone to think they'd selected the "wrong" cards when they cannot possibly determine what cards "would have" been drawn if other cards had been held.
That summer you published, for the first time to my knowledge, the correct description of how the machines work. (Others of us had published the same information earlier and I was glad to see that you'd finally been correctly informed). In the issue of Strictly Slots that was published in early August, 2006, you again (in your Beginner's Corner column) gave the incorrect information that 10 cards were initially selected. Although I don't read you regularly (and I no longer read either Strictly Slots or Casino Player due to numerous factual errors by many authors) I have come across at least one more reference that appeared to show you still sometimes think the machines deal this way when they do not.
And just for a clarification I would not have responded that last time as I did had you given that "if" statement the way you describe. I am sorry that you consider any criticism (or even factual correction) as a personal attack. I have never written anything that could reasonably be construed as a "slam". In my post I said that "even Bob Dancer didn't know....". The word "even" implies that you are at the top of your field and that it is no surprise that an average person would be confused when even you were not aware for many years how this worked.
Please try to understand that stating a fact, respectfully, is not an attack. However, another intimation that I have a grudge or desire to slam you could generate an example of what a personal attack is like. And I do not refer to you or anyone else by a last name. I would write about you as Mr. Dancer (or use your real name) and I'd appreciate the same courtesy in the future.
Bill
At 11:34 AM 12/9/2007, you wrote:
Bill Coleman wrote: Even Bob Dancer didn't how IGT machines are
programmed until recently and, based on his writing, may not really
believe it yetHardly. Bill Coleman periodically slams me and attributes this to me
that I didn't say.In the series of posts Coleman is probably referring to, I posted that
"IF we assume that we hit the button at the same time, then . . ." and
that is/was a true statement. Coleman decided that since it is unlikely
that buttons are hit at the same time that I was incorrect. I wasn't
addressing how likely that was, and he wasn't addressing how likely the
consequence was once we make that assumption. He was addressing
something totally different that what I was saying.Bob Dancer
For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.comvpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
I was going to say....I took your comment toward Mr. Dancer as a
compilment. Many of us here know that he IS at the top of the game and
your point was that even the best of us (not that I'm included in that)
may not fully understand the process. I was a little tooken back at
his response.....maybe he takes note of those who disrespect and
question is authority on the subject, but I just thought it was a little
harsh.
Bill Coleman wrote:
I was not slamming you, I was simply stating the fact that the way
these programs are designed are rather complicated and even you, as
an expert, are not always accurate. Not that these differences matter
mathematically but here's what I'm referring to.In the summer of 2006 you finally found out that IGT Game Kings (and
other machines of similar vintage) do not select 10 cards initially
but 5 and then randomly select draw cards later. This makes it
impossible for someone to think they'd selected the "wrong" cards
when they cannot possibly determine what cards "would have" been
drawn if other cards had been held.That summer you published, for the first time to my knowledge, the
correct description of how the machines work. (Others of us had
published the same information earlier and I was glad to see that
you'd finally been correctly informed). In the issue of Strictly
Slots that was published in early August, 2006, you again (in your
Beginner's Corner column) gave the incorrect information that 10
cards were initially selected. Although I don't read you regularly
(and I no longer read either Strictly Slots or Casino Player due to
numerous factual errors by many authors) I have come across at least
one more reference that appeared to show you still sometimes think
the machines deal this way when they do not.And just for a clarification I would not have responded that last
time as I did had you given that "if" statement the way you describe.
I am sorry that you consider any criticism (or even factual
correction) as a personal attack. I have never written anything that
could reasonably be construed as a "slam". In my post I said that
"even Bob Dancer didn't know....". The word "even" implies that you
are at the top of your field and that it is no surprise that an
average person would be confused when even you were not aware for
many years how this worked.Please try to understand that stating a fact, respectfully, is not an
attack. However, another intimation that I have a grudge or desire to
slam you could generate an example of what a personal attack is like.
And I do not refer to you or anyone else by a last name. I would
write about you as Mr. Dancer (or use your real name) and I'd
appreciate the same courtesy in the future.Bill
>Bill Coleman wrote: Even Bob Dancer didn't how IGT machines are
>programmed until recently and, based on his writing, may not really
>believe it yet
>
>
>Hardly. Bill Coleman periodically slams me and attributes this to me
>that I didn't say.
>
>In the series of posts Coleman is probably referring to, I posted that
>"IF we assume that we hit the button at the same time, then . . ." and
>that is/was a true statement. Coleman decided that since it is unlikely
>that buttons are hit at the same time that I was incorrect. I wasn't
>addressing how likely that was, and he wasn't addressing how likely the
>consequence was once we make that assumption. He was addressing
>something totally different that what I was saying.
>
>Bob Dancer
>
> For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
>computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com
>
>
>
>
>
>vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
<http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
At 11:34 AM 12/9/2007, you wrote:
Why don't YOU do it?
Many people here believe you will find NO disproportionate difference
in the amount of deuces
shown between the two games.
On 12/9/07, Jackie <ajackiek@cox.net> wrote:
... I have to agree with Gilbert in that it "seems" that more deuces show
up than in other non-deuces wild games. It would be interesting if one of
you skeptics would play Deuces Wild for an hour while counting how many
deuces appear (even in redraws) and then any other non-deuces wild game
for an hour also and once again count all the deuces that appear and I
believe you will find a disproportionate difference in the amount of deuces
shown between the two games.
in the amount of deuces
shown between the two games.
What's a "disproportionate difference?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message -----
From: King Fish
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Random Number Generation (RNG), cards drawn, and the 'Deuces' or '2s'
On 12/9/07, Jackie <ajackiek@cox.net> wrote:
> many people here believe you will find NO disproportionate difference
I think it's something like "good success."
----- Original Message -----
From: King Fish
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Random Number Generation (RNG), cards drawn, and the 'Deuces' or '2s'On 12/9/07, Jackie <ajackiek@cox.net> wrote:
> many people here believe you will find NO disproportionate difference
in the amount of deuces
shown between the two games.What's a "disproportionate difference?"
Bill Coleman wrote: I was not slamming you, I was simply stating the
fact that the way
these programs are designed are rather complicated and even you, as an
expert, are not always accurate.
Perhaps I overreacted. I apologize.
Bob Dancer
For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com