vpFREE2 Forums

Peppermill notes

Hi,

My wife and I just returned from a West Coast trip that included a 4 night (Mon-Thu) stay at the Peppermill Reno. Our trip started off on a dubious note when at checkin we were advised that our host, Sharon Nickson-Cox, was no longer with the Peppermill as of the previous week. We were told by several people over the next few days how "surprised" they were at this news. The wording of this statement was so consistent that I assume "surprised" is a euphemism for something specific.

A couple days later we went to see about getting a new host, and we were assigned to a very pleasant gentleman (who was, of course, "surprised" about Sharon's sudden departure). I'll intentionally omit his name for now.

We had a pretty successful trip. We spent most of our time on the 10 coin 10c SpinPoker NSUD's by the Steak House; also some play on the 50-play 10c 9/6 JB's (*) (not fully loaded) and a little bit of time on the 25c 3-play 9/6 JOB STP's, Big Split, and some other miscellany. Except for an extremely rocky start on my part during our first 24 hours on-site, we met or exceeded expectations, including at least 15 quad-deuces on the Spinnies and 4 royals on the 50-plays (one from a single card hold).

The big surprise was in comps. I should first note that we normally play long and hard -- 2 of us, probably about 8 hours/day, at decent stakes (Spinnies were $9/pull, 50-plays were usually around $7.50/pull). Our original host commitment was for a Tuscany Tower room (which is indeed very nice!) and coffee shop and buffet comped. In addition to a couple coffee shop meals, we had two casual meals (Biscotti's and Saucy's), two upscale meals (Romanza and the Steak House; no wine or liquor; Romanza bill was basically neutralized by a $50 mailer offer), and one massage. Counting tips, we had a bill of about $280 (of which about $70 was tips) -- IMHO, not excessive for a 4 night stay. On our visit last year, a similar bill was fully comped.

At checkout, we went and talked to our new host, who was very gracious about showing us all of our customer data on his screen. He showed we'd played 66 hours, about right (2 people * 8 hrs/day * 4 days). He then showed us our "total EP" (theo) of about $1400, and said that they target comping about 25-33% of that, and that we'd actually been comped at 44% already, and therefore he couldn't comp any of our remaining bill.

Yowza. And here I thought Reno was easy with comps.

His screen also reported our play from our visit last year -- about the same amount of play (60 hours, per his screen), but roughly double the "total EP".

From this data, I concluded two things: 1) They're assessing rather high rates for the Tuscany Tower rooms, even on weekdays. 2) They've halved the theo on the NSUD Spinnies, and perhaps also other games.

BTW, the evening before checking out, we also checked our point balance at the kiosks -- it claimed about 1500 points. No way is this possible if points are valued at $47/point as reported on vpFREE; I'm guessing more like $100/pt. This would also seem to match up with my theory of the theo being halved on these games, assuming "points" have something to do with theo.

Any thoughts or similar/dissimilar experiences at Peppermill lately?

(*) vpFREE database update: I believe the following games are missing or misrepresented in the database:

NSUD: the (6) Spin Pokers near the Steak House also offer 10 cent (10-coin) play ($9/spin fully loaded).

NSUD: there are (2) Spin Poker Deluxes in the hallway outside the Coffee Shop that offer 1c/2c/5c/25c (25-coin) play. Max bet is 500 coins (25 coins, 20 lines). (These games are already reported in the JOB section, which is correct, though it might be nice to note the 25-coin aspect in that entry.)

NSUD and JOB: we looked all over the place and never found the reported (2) Multistrike uprights.

JOB: there are (4) upright 5c/10c/25c 50-plays near the slot club desk.

JOB: there is an additional 25c 5-play Multistrike slant-top between the buffet and the Coffee Shop.

Big Split Poker @ 99.95%: (5) 5c/10c/25c slant-tops on the outside edge of the Cabaret Stage. We played a couple hours on these -- much like table Pai Gow Poker, they're a pleasant way to while away some time listening to music and sipping a cocktail, yay Larry!

Thanks...

--Joe

P.S. Thanks to those who responded to my query a couple weeks ago about scenic stops on our drive to/from Reno... as it turns out, our schedule worked out that we didn't really have much time for these things, but we're keeping them on the list for future trips!

They've had a "losers only" policy in place for some time now. If you
win or breakeven, they don't want your business. Used to be they just
backed off card counters, now they back off anybody who wins or breaks
even, even on progressive and bonus reel slots and keno.

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, Joe Schober <afljoeys@...> wrote:

Any thoughts or similar/dissimilar experiences at Peppermill lately?

Don't you get the "Preview" booklet with a coupon for 2 FREE nights in
the regular tower? You could have combined that with a 2 comped
nights offer from another mailing. Unless you had an overpowering
desire to stay in the Tuscany tower, you would have saved many comp
dollars since the Tuscany rooms are twice as expensive. I'm
estimating your hotel "comp bill" would have been 1/4 of what you paid.

George

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, Joe Schober <afljoeys@...> wrote:

Hi,

My wife and I just returned from a West Coast trip that included a 4
night (Mon-Thu) stay at the Peppermill Reno. Our trip started off on
a dubious note when at checkin we were advised that our host, Sharon
Nickson-Cox, was no longer with the Peppermill as of the previous
week. We were told by several people over the next few days how
"surprised" they were at this news. The wording of this statement was
so consistent that I assume "surprised" is a euphemism for something
specific.

A couple days later we went to see about getting a new host, and we
were assigned to a very pleasant gentleman (who was, of course,
"surprised" about Sharon's sudden departure). I'll intentionally omit
his name for now.

We had a pretty successful trip. We spent most of our time on the 10
coin 10c SpinPoker NSUD's by the Steak House; also some play on the 50-
play 10c 9/6 JB's (*) (not fully loaded) and a little bit of time on
the 25c 3-play 9/6 JOB STP's, Big Split, and some other miscellany.
Except for an extremely rocky start on my part during our first 24
hours on-site, we met or exceeded expectations, including at least 15
quad-deuces on the Spinnies and 4 royals on the 50-plays (one from a
single card hold).

The big surprise was in comps. I should first note that we normally
play long and hard -- 2 of us, probably about 8 hours/day, at decent
stakes (Spinnies were $9/pull, 50-plays were usually around $7.50/
pull). Our original host commitment was for a Tuscany Tower room
(which is indeed very nice!) and coffee shop and buffet comped. In
addition to a couple coffee shop meals, we had two casual meals
(Biscotti's and Saucy's), two upscale meals (Romanza and the Steak
House; no wine or liquor; Romanza bill was basically neutralized by a
$50 mailer offer), and one massage. Counting tips, we had a bill of
about $280 (of which about $70 was tips) -- IMHO, not excessive for a
4 night stay. On our visit last year, a similar bill was fully comped.

At checkout, we went and talked to our new host, who was very gracious
about showing us all of our customer data on his screen. He showed
we'd played 66 hours, about right (2 people * 8 hrs/day * 4 days). He
then showed us our "total EP" (theo) of about $1400, and said that
they target comping about 25-33% of that, and that we'd actually been
comped at 44% already, and therefore he couldn't comp any of our
remaining bill.

Yowza. And here I thought Reno was easy with comps.

His screen also reported our play from our visit last year -- about
the same amount of play (60 hours, per his screen), but roughly double
the "total EP".

From this data, I concluded two things: 1) They're assessing rather
high rates for the Tuscany Tower rooms, even on weekdays. 2) They've
halved the theo on the NSUD Spinnies, and perhaps also other games.

BTW, the evening before checking out, we also checked our point
balance at the kiosks -- it claimed about 1500 points. No way is this
possible if points are valued at $47/point as reported on vpFREE; I'm
guessing more like $100/pt. This would also seem to match up with my
theory of the theo being halved on these games, assuming "points" have
something to do with theo.

Any thoughts or similar/dissimilar experiences at Peppermill lately?

(*) vpFREE database update: I believe the following games are missing
or misrepresented in the database:

NSUD: the (6) Spin Pokers near the Steak House also offer 10 cent (10-
coin) play ($9/spin fully loaded).

NSUD: there are (2) Spin Poker Deluxes in the hallway outside the
Coffee Shop that offer 1c/2c/5c/25c (25-coin) play. Max bet is 500
coins (25 coins, 20 lines). (These games are already reported in the
JOB section, which is correct, though it might be nice to note the 25-
coin aspect in that entry.)

NSUD and JOB: we looked all over the place and never found the
reported (2) Multistrike uprights.

JOB: there are (4) upright 5c/10c/25c 50-plays near the slot club desk.

JOB: there is an additional 25c 5-play Multistrike slant-top between
the buffet and the Coffee Shop.

Big Split Poker @ 99.95%: (5) 5c/10c/25c slant-tops on the outside
edge of the Cabaret Stage. We played a couple hours on these -- much
like table Pai Gow Poker, they're a pleasant way to while away some
time listening to music and sipping a cocktail, yay Larry!

Thanks...

--Joe

P.S. Thanks to those who responded to my query a couple weeks ago
about scenic stops on our drive to/from Reno... as it turns out, our
schedule worked out that we didn't really have much time for these
things, but we're keeping them on the list for future trips!

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

> Any thoughts or similar/dissimilar experiences at Peppermill lately?

They've had a "losers only" policy in place for some time now. If you
win or breakeven, they don't want your business. Used to be they just
backed off card counters, now they back off anybody who wins or breaks
even, even on progressive and bonus reel slots and keno.

Backing off Keno players??? About the highest casino edge game in the
building. Now that's a casino that is REALLY paranoid!

Mike

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, Joe Schober <afljoeys@> wrote:

Agreed! I, now, always try to stay using the 2 free nights we get from
the coupons in the 'Preview' newsletter. Also, the newly remodeled
rooms in the regular tower are super nice! Nice beds with pillow top
mattresses, big flat screen TV, extra wide shower curtains. I can stay
there and not have ANY of my comp dollars going to the room expense.

Mike in Little Rock

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "George" <wxmen@...> wrote:

Don't you get the "Preview" booklet with a coupon for 2 FREE nights in
the regular tower? You could have combined that with a 2 comped
nights offer from another mailing. Unless you had an overpowering
desire to stay in the Tuscany tower, you would have saved many comp
dollars since the Tuscany rooms are twice as expensive. I'm
estimating your hotel "comp bill" would have been 1/4 of what you paid.

George

Good stuff Joe and thanks for sharing.

Tuscany rooms average @$135 per night weekdays (plus additional room-
associated charges) and regular Tower rooms average $50. There used
to be a TT room credit but that's gone, so those TT nights can really
add up and dent your account! Using the Preview coupon for
additional nights in a very acceptable standard Tower room is good
advice to preserve your account balance.

Assuming you started with 0 points and 0 comps (you do know both
expire on a 12 month running balance?) ... and assuming a casino 2%
expected theo loss on VP (and a room rate of @$150) ... what you
reported generally adds up.

Based on your game choices and play time, I estimate your total coin
to be @$70K, which fits nicely with your experience based on the
above parameters. You might call your new host and see if you can
get the exact figure for verification.

The only wrinkle is the double theo you report from last year. As an
explanation, it's possible PM slashed their VP from 4% since last
year (nothing apparent when I visited a few months ago) or you may
have inadvertently been awarded the slot rate (double VP) on your
play last year. I've experienced the latter from time to time either
on select machines or system wide. It's even possible you were
overcomped last visit and started this visit somewhat in the red.
Hard to know ...

I will say the PM Passport system is a tough nut to crack and there
may be other unknown parameters in play (per "noti"). Thus, it's
probably a good idea when checking in for a visit to contact your
host and try to get a ballpark estimate of your current comp acct.
(and check your room rate if not on coupon) so you don't go
overboard.

Hi,

My wife and I just returned from a West Coast trip that included a

4

night (Mon-Thu) stay at the Peppermill Reno. Our trip started off

on

a dubious note when at checkin we were advised that our host,

Sharon

Nickson-Cox, was no longer with the Peppermill as of the previous
week. We were told by several people over the next few days how
"surprised" they were at this news. The wording of this statement

was

so consistent that I assume "surprised" is a euphemism for

something

specific.

A couple days later we went to see about getting a new host, and

we

were assigned to a very pleasant gentleman (who was, of course,
"surprised" about Sharon's sudden departure). I'll intentionally

omit

his name for now.

We had a pretty successful trip. We spent most of our time on the

10

coin 10c SpinPoker NSUD's by the Steak House; also some play on the

50-

play 10c 9/6 JB's (*) (not fully loaded) and a little bit of time

on

the 25c 3-play 9/6 JOB STP's, Big Split, and some other

miscellany.

Except for an extremely rocky start on my part during our first 24
hours on-site, we met or exceeded expectations, including at least

15

quad-deuces on the Spinnies and 4 royals on the 50-plays (one from

a

single card hold).

The big surprise was in comps. I should first note that we

normally

play long and hard -- 2 of us, probably about 8 hours/day, at

decent

stakes (Spinnies were $9/pull, 50-plays were usually around $7.50/
pull). Our original host commitment was for a Tuscany Tower room
(which is indeed very nice!) and coffee shop and buffet comped.

In

addition to a couple coffee shop meals, we had two casual meals
(Biscotti's and Saucy's), two upscale meals (Romanza and the Steak
House; no wine or liquor; Romanza bill was basically neutralized by

a

$50 mailer offer), and one massage. Counting tips, we had a bill

of

about $280 (of which about $70 was tips) -- IMHO, not excessive for

a

4 night stay. On our visit last year, a similar bill was fully

comped.

At checkout, we went and talked to our new host, who was very

gracious

about showing us all of our customer data on his screen. He

showed

we'd played 66 hours, about right (2 people * 8 hrs/day * 4 days).

He

then showed us our "total EP" (theo) of about $1400, and said that
they target comping about 25-33% of that, and that we'd actually

been

comped at 44% already, and therefore he couldn't comp any of our
remaining bill.

Yowza. And here I thought Reno was easy with comps.

His screen also reported our play from our visit last year --

about

the same amount of play (60 hours, per his screen), but roughly

double

the "total EP".

From this data, I concluded two things: 1) They're assessing

rather

high rates for the Tuscany Tower rooms, even on weekdays. 2)

They've

halved the theo on the NSUD Spinnies, and perhaps also other games.

BTW, the evening before checking out, we also checked our point
balance at the kiosks -- it claimed about 1500 points. No way is

this

possible if points are valued at $47/point as reported on vpFREE;

I'm

guessing more like $100/pt. This would also seem to match up with

my

theory of the theo being halved on these games, assuming "points"

have

something to do with theo.

Any thoughts or similar/dissimilar experiences at Peppermill lately?

(*) vpFREE database update: I believe the following games are

missing

or misrepresented in the database:

NSUD: the (6) Spin Pokers near the Steak House also offer 10 cent

(10-

coin) play ($9/spin fully loaded).

NSUD: there are (2) Spin Poker Deluxes in the hallway outside the
Coffee Shop that offer 1c/2c/5c/25c (25-coin) play. Max bet is

500

coins (25 coins, 20 lines). (These games are already reported in

the

JOB section, which is correct, though it might be nice to note the

25-

coin aspect in that entry.)

NSUD and JOB: we looked all over the place and never found the
reported (2) Multistrike uprights.

JOB: there are (4) upright 5c/10c/25c 50-plays near the slot club

desk.

JOB: there is an additional 25c 5-play Multistrike slant-top

between

the buffet and the Coffee Shop.

Big Split Poker @ 99.95%: (5) 5c/10c/25c slant-tops on the outside
edge of the Cabaret Stage. We played a couple hours on these --

much

like table Pai Gow Poker, they're a pleasant way to while away

some

time listening to music and sipping a cocktail, yay Larry!

Thanks...

--Joe

P.S. Thanks to those who responded to my query a couple weeks ago
about scenic stops on our drive to/from Reno... as it turns out,

our

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, Joe Schober <afljoeys@...> wrote:

schedule worked out that we didn't really have much time for these
things, but we're keeping them on the list for future trips!

The base IGT 7 spot Keno (7000-422-22-2-1) returns 95%. If you think
about it, there might be ways to make that positive, and of course
there is always progressive Keno. Promotions these days are based on
theoretical, not coin-in, and generally so-called "advantage games"
(FPDW, FPJP, FPDB) have no theoretical, sometimes even slightly
negative games like NSUD, super aces, or jacks-or-better have no
theoretical. A casino might have them available for advertising
purposes, but if you actually play them, they don't want your
business. It's the same as table blackjack, it's available to play,
but if you even look like you know what you're doing, they don't want
your business. "Losers only" is standard policy now, casinos have to
pay off all that debt they've accumulated to build all those towers to
the gods that are now underwater.

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Aclin" <aclinml@...> wrote:

Backing off Keno players??? About the highest casino edge game in the
building. Now that's a casino that is REALLY paranoid!

There is always progressive Keno, but even if the progressive meter
eventually makes the game 100% or better, it does not affect the overall
return of the game from the casino's standpoint (assuming the progressive is
based only on coin-in).

···

On 7/31/08, nightoftheiguana2000 <nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

  — In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>,
"Michael Aclin" <aclinml@…> wrote:
> Backing off Keno players??? About the highest casino edge game in the
> building. Now that's a casino that is REALLY paranoid!

The base IGT 7 spot Keno (7000-422-22-2-1) returns 95%. If you think
about it, there might be ways to make that positive, and of course
there is always progressive Keno. Promotions these days are based on
theoretical, not coin-in, and generally so-called "advantage games"
(FPDW, FPJP, FPDB) have no theoretical, sometimes even slightly
negative games like NSUD, super aces, or jacks-or-better have no
theoretical. A casino might have them available for advertising
purposes, but if you actually play them, they don't want your
business. It's the same as table blackjack, it's available to play,
but if you even look like you know what you're doing, they don't want
your business. "Losers only" is standard policy now, casinos have to
pay off all that debt they've accumulated to build all those towers to
the gods that are now underwater.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

A casino might have them available for advertising
purposes, but if you actually play them, they don't want your
business. It's the same as table blackjack, it's available to play,
but if you even look like you know what you're doing, they don't want
your business. "Losers only" is standard policy now, casinos have to
pay off all that debt they've accumulated to build all those towers to
the gods that are now underwater.

Again, I must protest. I was at the Peppermill last weekend for
their "High limit Extravaganza weekend" promotion. I was treated great
(as always) and came home $3,500 to the good. I won $6000 within the
first hour I was there on Thursday (9/6 $1 DDB bartop in high-limit
area. 4A w/ kicker and then the Royal 25 minutes later)and my host
punished me by giving me 2-$50 airline credit vouchers. You must really
have done something to pi*s them off at the Pepp because everybody I
know who goes there, goes back and gets treated royally (excuse the
pun). I really enjoy getting my butt kissed by pros 4-5 times a year
and I see no end to this practice since the Pepp keeps sending me
freebies and I'm a sucker for free. Going back the last weekend of
August. As always, my offer to buy you dinner at the Pepp is open when
I'm there. I just wish you would lighten up.

At checkout, we went and talked to our new host, who was very

gracious about showing us all of our customer data on his screen. He
showed we'd played 66 hours, about right (2 people * 8 hrs/day * 4
days). He then showed us our "total EP" (theo) of about $1400, and
said that they target comping about 25-33% of that, and that we'd
actually been comped at 44% already, and therefore he couldn't comp any
of our remaining bill.

Yowza. And here I thought Reno was easy with comps.

Great post.

This is a case of facts versus fallacy, i.e. "Reno was easy with
comps". Those are great stats 25-33%, 44%, etc. My casino benchmarks
are rebate of 10% of actual losses (and I do complain rather loudly if
I had a truly bad session) and comps at 30% of theo.

I know "people" who get bounce back aka free play offers in thousands
from Peppermill and these people rarely use 5% to 10% of their comps. I
don't know what my comp level was at Peppermill, but I doubt if I spent
more than 5% of the comps that I earned -- I don't need the free rooms
or free food.

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, Joe Schober <afljoeys@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

They've had a "losers only" policy in place for some time now. If

you

win or breakeven, they don't want your business. Used to be they

just

backed off card counters, now they back off anybody who wins or

breaks

even, even on progressive and bonus reel slots and keno.

nightoftheiguana2000, please speak for yourself. I understand you get
a lot of your limited information from your network.

As for me, I loved the Peppermill. For every $1 "a player" lost, it
was not uncommon for that "someone" to average over $3 in free play
over a two plus year period that totaled over five-figures!!

I said this before that not all APs are the same since it depends on
your network and who you know changes everything. I see it all the
time, the APs with limited skills that play the no-brainer
progressives, hustle bonus machines, hustle coupons, abuse comp
systems, abuse promos, etc and never learned the refined skills to
politely ask for more. My favorite spiel when asked why I don't play
more at Peppermill is because XYZ casino really likes me and offers
me $$$ in free play (and I show them a convenient mailer -- something
like $1,500 in free play for the month -- alluding to the fact
Peppermill just can't compete for my action).

Lastly, I'll give you this tip -- the bigger Reno casinos like
Peppermill, Atlantis (I don't play there), Eldorado, Harrah's, etc
have tons of money to bribe you to get your actions. Last fall, the
Grand Sierra was practically giving money (and room and food) away if
you had a certain player's card from Thunder Valley. It was a couple
hundred dollars a day no questions asked. There were other really
dumb moves by the casinos -- just down right stupid from an AP
perspective. These casinos were begging to be raped.

It is still possible to get free play bounce-back in the high three
to low four figure range on a monthly basis from several Reno
casinos. However, the caveat is to be prepare to $10,000 a day (not
theo, actual losses). Good luck.

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

The base IGT 7 spot Keno (7000-422-22-2-1) returns 95%. If you think
about it, there might be ways to make that positive, and of course
there is always progressive Keno. Promotions these days are based on
theoretical, not coin-in, and generally so-called "advantage games"
(FPDW, FPJP, FPDB) have no theoretical, sometimes even slightly
negative games like NSUD, super aces, or jacks-or-better have no
theoretical. A casino might have them available for advertising
purposes, but if you actually play them, they don't want your
business.

That comment about theo is patently wrong. Anyone who works with PAR
sheets knows the manufacturer recommends different levels of returns.
There is optimal return that can be solved by a commercial software
as little as $30. Then there is the field return number. Not everyone
plays computer perfect; no everyone plays with max coins, etc. The
general rule is field returns are about 2% less than optimum returns
for video poker.

IGT publicly disclosed the numbers for their Five Aces Poker game:
optimal return was 99.999% and field returns were 95.999% to 97.999%.
I wouldn't be surprised if the casino set the theo at 2% for that
game despite having a 99.999% return.

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan"
<diversified_slave@...> wrote:

...I was at the Peppermill last weekend for
their "High limit Extravaganza weekend" promotion. I was treated

great

We crossed paths then Jonathan. We were there too, but not invited
to the HLE. Played heavily on the 10 coin 9/6 JOB Prog and lost
about as badly as we've ever lost -- but then, it fits with our
results for this year.

Peppermill is one of our favorites because all the comp $ are in
one "bucket" (or at least it seems so) and since we don't take a
comped room (traveling by RV) we have more to spend on food.

By the way, I do know they are giving lower points on better
machines. Not sure the exact formula, but the points have been
changed.

It "seems" they have tightened up overall on comps, but yet to be
proven. We've never been turned down for a food comp, and usually
play heavy quarter VP 6 to 8 hours a day for Chris and about half
that for me. This time playing so much on the half dollar level was
out of the ordinary for us.

Mac
www.CasinoCamper.com

I'm curious, why don't you play at Atlantis?

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "fordscks" <jason_c_vp@...> wrote:

Atlantis (I don't play there)

You're saying casinos should use the theos published by IGT in their
PAR sheets? Sounds like a great idea, but will it ever happen?

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "chungsterama" <chungsty@...> wrote:

IGT publicly disclosed the numbers for their Five Aces Poker game:
optimal return was 99.999% and field returns were 95.999% to 97.999%.
I wouldn't be surprised if the casino set the theo at 2% for that
game despite having a 99.999% return.

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

You're saying casinos should use the theos published by IGT in their
PAR sheets? Sounds like a great idea, but will it ever happen?

I don't think nightoftheiguana2000 understands how the casino system
works. Casino set their own theos just as casinos choose which pay
tables they want. Again, to say certain video poker games have no theo
is just wrong.

From: Jonathan <diversified_slave@yahoo.com>
Subject: [vpFREE_Reno] Re: Peppermill notes
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 2:10 PM
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com,
"nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

> A casino might have them available for advertising
> purposes, but if you actually play them, they
don't want your
> business. It's the same as table blackjack,
it's available to play,
> but if you even look like you know what you're
doing, they don't want
> your business. "Losers only" is standard
policy now, casinos have to
> pay off all that debt they've accumulated to build
all those towers to
> the gods that are now underwater.
>
Again, I must protest. I was at the Peppermill last weekend
for
their "High limit Extravaganza weekend"
promotion. I was treated great
(as always) and came home $3,500 to the good. I won $6000
within the
first hour I was there on Thursday (9/6 $1 DDB bartop in
high-limit
area. 4A w/ kicker and then the Royal 25 minutes later)and
my host
punished me by giving me 2-$50 airline credit vouchers. You
must really
have done something to pi*s them off at the Pepp because
everybody I
know who goes there, goes back and gets treated royally
(excuse the
pun). I really enjoy getting my butt kissed by pros 4-5
times a year
and I see no end to this practice since the Pepp keeps
sending me
freebies and I'm a sucker for free. Going back the last
weekend of
August. As always, my offer to buy you dinner at the Pepp
is open when
I'm there. I just wish you would lighten up.
***********************************************************************

Perfect response , please dont hold your breath.
M J

···

--- On Fri, 8/1/08, Jonathan <diversified_slave@yahoo.com> wrote:

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links

"nightoftheiguana2000" wrote:

... Promotions these days are based on theoretical,
not coin-in, and generally so-called "advantage games"
(FPDW, FPJP, FPDB) have no theoretical ...

On 2 Aug 2008 at 2:01, chungsterama replied:

That comment about theo is patently wrong. Anyone who works with
PAR sheets knows the manufacturer recommends different levels of
returns. There is optimal return that can be solved by a commercial
software as little as $30. Then there is the field return number.
Not everyone plays computer perfect; no everyone plays with max
coins, etc. The general rule is field returns are about 2% less
than optimum returns for video poker.

When I read NOTI's post, it was clear to me that "have no
theoretical" means that Peppermill has arbitrarily assigned a
theo of "zero" to their advantage games.

vpFae

And that is why I disagree with him; for that to be true, it must mean
the only people playing these machines are knowlegdeable people capable
of playing near computer optimal. The fact is people have been known
playing these machines using short coins and sometimes using sub-
optimal strategy.

Unless NOTI works for Peppermill, then he is voicing his opinion, and I
am disagreeing with said opinion. Unlike NOTI, I work with manufacturer
(s) that supply the games to Peppermill; I am NOT an employee of said
manufacturers.

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "vpFae" <vpFae@...> wrote:

When I read NOTI's post, it was clear to me that "have no
theoretical" means that Peppermill has arbitrarily assigned a
theo of "zero" to their advantage games.

vpFae

vpFae wrote:

> When I read NOTI's post, it was clear to me that "have no
> theoretical" means that Peppermill has arbitrarily assigned a
> theo of "zero" to their advantage games.

"chungsterama" replied:

And that is why I disagree with him; for that to be true, it must mean
the only people playing these machines are knowlegdeable people capable
of playing near computer optimal. The fact is people have been known
playing these machines using short coins and sometimes using sub-
optimal strategy.

People who play machines with an assumed theo value of "zero"
at Peppermill are either unaware of the fact, or don't care about
comps.

Unless NOTI works for Peppermill, then he is voicing his opinion, and I
am disagreeing with said opinion. Unlike NOTI, I work with manufacturer
(s) that supply the games to Peppermill; I am NOT an employee of said
manufacturers.

NOTI is merely reporting that he (and others) aren't getting
any comps for playing Peppermill's better machines.

Summarizing:

1. All video poker games have an expected/historical theo
and all video poker machines have an actual theo.

2. Casinos that award comps/cashback based on a theo
formula can arbitrarily use any value for theo that they like.

3. I know that the Palms and many Harrah's casinos assign
a theo value of "zero" to their better video poker machines.

4. When I read NOTI's post, it was clear to me that "have no
theoretical" means that Peppermill has arbitrarily assigned a
theo of "zero" to their advantage games.

vpFae