vpFREE2 Forums

Pep Talk needed - please help!

#21

You have exceeded your psychological bankroll.
Solution is to drop to a level where you feel comfortable, go back to quarters or try 50 centers, or try triple play quarters.

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: john_chinnock
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:27 AM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Pep Talk needed - please help!

  Ok, this might be a corny post, but after a successful 18 months of
  playing 25c video poker (primarily JOB, but some others as well), I
  decided to switch over to $1 games to increase my comps substantially
  and get all of the perks that the "high rollers" who play $1 VP
  receive. Unfortunately, after only 3 months of $1 VP play (with
  extensive hours), I am stuck slightly over $20K!!! Luckily, I have
  the bankroll to support big downswings, but I am over 5 royals behind
  expectation with the amount of hours that my wife and I have put in.
  It's getting to the point where we bring 3K down to the casino each
  weekend and we feel like it's just going straight into the fireplace!

  I know that there are many higher-stakes players than me on these
  boards, and I'm sure that people have experienced way worse
  downswings than this, so I just wanted to know if someone else could
  share their horror stories of VP past, and perhaps provide a pep talk
  for the rest of us. I'm quite sure that I'm not the only one on
  these boards who would benefit greatly from the wisdom of the higher
  stakes players and the trials and tribulations that they have been
  through. I hear about pros who play $5 VP, and I can't even imagine
  the nerves of steel that these people must have.

  Thanks in advance,

  John

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#22

rockofjello333 wrote:

To me, this is the exception that proves the rule. No CASINO had an
American coin VP machine confiscated: the ones taken were all
installed in bars, laundromats, convenience stores, etc. (none of
whom actually OWNED the machines; they were leased).

You've nailed this in a nutshell, rock. (And the modest degree of
consenseus between us lately is getting a little scary :wink:

The American Coin tale has never given me much pause (none, in fact)
for thought in my mainstream casino play.

···

------

I'll add an additional thought to this discussion that I've expressed
before. Any rational player should be very circumspect about the
prospect of fraudulent machines ... or for that matter, the potential
for the entire industry to misrepresent the fairness in machine design.

But that said, it's critical that a player come to a firm
determination in their mind about this probability. If, as I have, you
assess the risk to be relatively nominal (I put it at less than 1%)
and you decide to proceed with play, the only reasonable action is to
put this slim likelihood out of mind and fully accept on faith that
there's no question of unfairness.

To do otherwise exposes you to unnecessary play distraction that's
entirely counter productive and therefore irrational.

If, on the other hand, your risk assessment is higher -- or, it's
simply your nature that you can't set aside all concern -- then DON'T
play. Frankly, anyone who continues to play possessing any doubts is
a fool.

I don't fault anyone who would abandon play on this count. You need
to have the commitment and determination to go with your gut instincts
for life to be fulfilling.

- Harry

#23

Hi all: Just got back from my latest Vegas trip. I discovered Multi-play , multi-strike .
5 games by 4 lines at 100 coins per deal.
This game is serious fun, you get to the top line way more often, ( I also got lucky and won $180 playing nickels on a short pay version of bonus deuces) .
Beware and bring a bankroll.
The game I played was at Boulder Station.
For those that were wondering about the time it takes for scratch cards at MSS, I found that over 4 days I only had to wait for a long time a few times over the course of the 4 days.

No other significant events or sightings during the trip.

Regards
A.P.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#24

Albert Pearson wrote:

You have exceeded your psychological bankroll.
Solution is to drop to a level where you feel comfortable, go back
to quarters or try 50 centers, or try triple play quarters.

A very decent capsule of the situation.

There's another possibly to consider, however. There's a clear sense
in the post that the speed of the loss was a greater consideration
than the absolute loss itself.

I'll attest from personal experience that a loss that I was prepared
to absorb over 2 or 3 years becomes very uncomfortable when it occurs
within a 1 year timespan (not to even try to conceive of this writer's
3 month loss :(.

The remedy here might be to simply back off on play per trip or trip
frequency to reduce the risk of an abrupt large loss, rather than cut
back in denomination. In other words, psychological bankroll may not
be at issue here.

···

------

A side note prompted by my own experience: I suspect that it's the
case that while reasonably knowledgable players gird themselves for a
big hit over time, relatively few realistically are prepared for the
swiftness with which painful downturns can develop.

More often than not a player will find that they're nailed hard in
play, a prolonged royal drought is the culprit. We're talking about a
swift retribution by the game. A player who manages 700 hands/hour
can find that they've suffered a 5 royal drought in just 300 hours
(say 50 days of 6 hr./day play).

If they should happen to be playing at a .5% disadvantage (realistic
if you're talking 9/6 Jacks and .2% cb that's fully offset by a .2%
theo error cost, or perhaps 9/7 DB), you're looking at a bankroll hit
equivalent to the payout on 6 royals on average in this example.

Things get even worse if you're talking about a game like DB. Add in
a relatively moderate 10% shortfall in quad Aces on top of this
negative ER drain and the hit is upped to 7 royals. OUCH!

And anyone who'd take comfort that things statistically have to turn
around at that point is delusional.

VP is a hazardous pastime, particularly if you're playing a near
break-even game in which you have NO expected cushion against such
droughts.

- Harry

#25

I basically agree with Harry, and we all have to remember that the
reason we can play any Full pay or close to Full pay machines is that
for every one of us educated players there are 10's or 100's of
totally uneducated 'fly by the seat of your pants' players who think
they are playing a good game and really are playing quite poorly. We
have to be very thankfull for those kind contributors for allowing the
casinos to have the payscales we do have. As more and more players
are educated the games have tightened up to compensate, and
unfortunately it will most likely continue in that fashion.

Jim & Kelli

···

You've nailed this in a nutshell, rock. (And the modest degree of
consenseus between us lately is getting a little scary :wink:

The American Coin tale has never given me much pause (none, in fact)
for thought in my mainstream casino play.

------

I'll add an additional thought to this discussion that I've expressed
before. Any rational player should be very circumspect about the
prospect of fraudulent machines ... or for that matter, the potential
for the entire industry to misrepresent the fairness in machine design.

But that said, it's critical that a player come to a firm
determination in their mind about this probability. If, as I have, you
assess the risk to be relatively nominal (I put it at less than 1%)
and you decide to proceed with play, the only reasonable action is to
put this slim likelihood out of mind and fully accept on faith that
there's no question of unfairness.

To do otherwise exposes you to unnecessary play distraction that's
entirely counter productive and therefore irrational.

If, on the other hand, your risk assessment is higher -- or, it's
simply your nature that you can't set aside all concern -- then DON'T
play. Frankly, anyone who continues to play possessing any doubts is
a fool.

I don't fault anyone who would abandon play on this count. You need
to have the commitment and determination to go with your gut instincts
for life to be fulfilling.

- Harry

#26

AP,
Sounds like an exciting game. What were the paytables?

Hi all: Just got back from my latest Vegas trip. I discovered Multi-

play , multi-strike .

5 games by 4 lines at 100 coins per deal.
This game is serious fun, you get to the top line way more often, (

I also got lucky and won $180 playing nickels on a short pay version
of bonus deuces) .

Beware and bring a bankroll.
The game I played was at Boulder Station.
For those that were wondering about the time it takes for scratch

cards at MSS, I found that over 4 days I only had to wait for a long
time a few times over the course of the 4 days.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Pearson" <a-p@s...> wrote:

No other significant events or sightings during the trip.

Regards
A.P.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#27

Unfortunately swings are the good and bad of VP play. My wife and I
started out this year on a very good note and did well for the first 6
weeks, then we didnt hit a single royal for 3 months and 1 day,
finally (after we were starting to think we couldnt hit a royal) we
hit a royal, then another and another and ended up with 5 royals in a
9 day span. We ended up winning in 9 days more then we were behind in
the previous 3 months. Of course we (or anyone else) didnt/shouldnt
expect to have such a nice comeback, but we certainly didnt complain a
bit. Hopefully something simular will happen, or as others have said
maybe a different denomanation would be more apropriate for you. I
certainly do simpathize with your situation.

take care
Jim & Kelli

···

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: john_chinnock
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:27 AM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Pep Talk needed - please help!

  Ok, this might be a corny post, but after a successful 18 months of
  playing 25c video poker (primarily JOB, but some others as well), I
  decided to switch over to $1 games to increase my comps substantially
  and get all of the perks that the "high rollers" who play $1 VP
  receive. Unfortunately, after only 3 months of $1 VP play (with
  extensive hours), I am stuck slightly over $20K!!! Luckily, I have
  the bankroll to support big downswings, but I am over 5 royals behind
  expectation with the amount of hours that my wife and I have put in.
  It's getting to the point where we bring 3K down to the casino each
  weekend and we feel like it's just going straight into the fireplace!

  I know that there are many higher-stakes players than me on these
  boards, and I'm sure that people have experienced way worse
  downswings than this, so I just wanted to know if someone else could
  share their horror stories of VP past, and perhaps provide a pep talk
  for the rest of us. I'm quite sure that I'm not the only one on
  these boards who would benefit greatly from the wisdom of the higher
  stakes players and the trials and tribulations that they have been
  through. I hear about pros who play $5 VP, and I can't even imagine
  the nerves of steel that these people must have.

  Thanks in advance,

  John

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#28

I noticed this game for the first time at the Atlantis in Reno this
weekend. Along the walkway near the concierge tower elevators.
Didn't get a look at the paytables though.

#29

The paytables that I checked out were for nickels and they were poor. I didn't check out what they were at higher levels because I wasn't going to put in that kind of money and I was only in Boulder station for a brief visit. Sorry I didn't record any, but for the bonus deuces it was either the %95.3 or 97.3 payback version and nothing that you would play for serious money, I just had to try it out.

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: hockeystl
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 10:58 AM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Addiction warning for multi-strike addicts

  AP,
  Sounds like an exciting game. What were the paytables?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#30

I've been thinking about this book title since last night. I finally
found it:

License to Steal by Jeff Burbank

http://tinyurl.com/5wh77

There was a book written on the American Coin saga a few years ago.

I

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hockeystl" <vegasstl@c...> wrote:

read it but do not recall the title. Anyone???

The circumstances behind the death of this programmer were very
shady.

#31

Hi I can sure relate to the royal drought myself. I play 5 days a week
and have only hit 2 royals all year. Mostly everyone I talk to seems to
be doing particularly badly this year. How many people are actually
ahead this year? Raise your hand. :slight_smile: I have been playing for 10 years
and I have never seen anything resembling this or even heard of so much
ugly news from other players. A lot of crazy rumors are going around
with chips in poker machines, that casinos can actually change VP % by
leaving the payable the same but changing the percentage down to 98% or
so, like a slot machine. I hate to believe this but sometimes I wonder.
A friend told me they heard from a slot person that this is happening.
What does everyone else think? I lose 48 out of 50 nights I play and not
only am I at 2 royals for the whole year but cant even ever book a win
against the drop. I might add, to those of you that don't know me, I am
not a beginner. I'm a very experienced player and only play "advantages"
Ha Ha! Things that are suppose to be advantageous anyway! So by a raise
of hands, how many are actually ahead for the year? Then I guess I will
know it's just me. By the way Glen, if you are reading this, that
progressive is still up there..:slight_smile: Thanks in advance, everyone...Jodie
SHA

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpdeuces [mailto:vpdeu…@…com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:29 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Pep Talk needed - please help!

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "john_chinnock" <chinnock@h...> wrote:

I know that there are many higher-stakes players than me on these
boards, and I'm sure that people have experienced way worse
downswings than this, so I just wanted to know if someone else

could

share their horror stories of VP past, and perhaps provide a pep

talk

for the rest of us.

First, I'm not a higher-stake player, but I'm in the middle of my own
Royal drought, so I can relate. The jump to dollars can be
unnerving. One thing I would suggest is to drop down to $.50.
You'll get increased comps and cashback over quarters but you'll also
have more staying power than with dollars. Look for multi-denom
machines with the better games.

I know many of these posts sound like ads, but it would help to
reread the VP chapter in "More Frugal Gambling," especially the last
section, Knowing What To Expect. Many of us have had success in
playing VP early on and are shaken by long periods of nothing. It's
hard not to be, but for now I'll keep plugging away. Who knows, I
might even reread some of that stuff about penalty cards!!

Finally, VP has to remain fun for me to stay in the game. It would
stop being fun for me if I was down the value of 5 royals at any
denomination. That's my limit; everyone else will have a different
threshold.

Drew

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#32

I AGREE. THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. A LOT OF PROS ARE BEGINNING TO
WONDER..EVEN ME, WHO WOULD OF NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS IN MY WHOLE 10 YRS
OF PLAY REGARGLESS OF MY TERRIBLE LOSING STREAKS IN THE PAST. JODIE

···

-----Original Message-----
From: jackessiebabe [mailto:jackessieb…@…com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 4:49 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Poop Talk

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333" <rockofjello333@y...>

wrote

>
There's also something that I'd like to mention, that I already

know

that the VP community at large heartily disagrees with, but we

take

it on faith--WITHOUT VERIFICATION OF ANY KIND--that the VP

machines

are 100% honest. I say "on faith" because I've NEVER seen--or

heard

of for that matter--Gaming officials marching into a casino floor
unannounced and grabbing a VP machine, to have it taken back to

the

lab. I know how easy it would be to, for instance, have the A's

come

up slightly less often, or the 2's on a DW machine. Just a little
biasing on the part of thr "RNG" (there is no such thing as an
actual Random Number Generator) and there goes our 0.7% advantage,
poof, just like that. Just a thought...I don't like the idea of
spending $1 million bucks (that's what we dollar players shove

into

the machines in a year) and not being SURE everything is on the
level.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I agree with most everything you say, Rock, however what can the VP
community realistically do about this? Outside of quitting, which
most of us will never do voluntarily, what recourse do we have to
force the casinos to PROVE that the FPVP will pay off (in the long-
run, of course) according to computer generated math with which they
had NOTHING whatever to do. I think that proving that vp payoffs are
only controlled by the pay schedule, and not rigged in any way, is a
fruitless task. Anyway, thanks for an interesting post.

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#33

I think a lot of people are confused about to expect when playing
video poker. I also went through a very long drought of over a year
without a royal , but when I first started I had amazing luck and hit
tons of royals on very negative machines because I knew nothing about
the game. When I was running well and was clueless about the math of
the game I expected to win more sessions than I lost. But here's the
deal. You should expect to lose money in between royals and more
sessions in general will be losing sessions than winning ones - or you
will book small wins a big losses in between royals. If you are
playing JOB or any other negative game, you should expect to lose more
in between royals than the royal itself. But the game is very very
streaky. As I said over a year without a royal and then BAM - 3
royals in 6 weeks and a bunch of deuces playing loose deuces at the
Hilton - a lucky streak finally! I sometimes forget the variance of
this game myself. But that seems to be my pattern anyway - my short
term ids very very erratic.

By the way, being 5 royal cycles without a royal doesn't mean being
down $20,000 (4000x5) but rather means you have played approx 450k
hands X 5 (give or take hands based on game you play), which means
approx 2.3M hands which means anywhere from 2k-3k hours depending on
how fast you play. So if you are playing 5 hours a day then that
means a year and half playing day in and day out for 5 hours a day. Do
you see what I am saying here? If you've only been playing dollars
for a short time it is highly unlikely that you are 5 royal cyles
behind. You are stuck the dollar equivalent of 5 royals.

I didn't used to look at things in such a practical manner and I hated
having losing days. But now I know that they happen very frequently
and you just ride it out.

Now if I could just get myself to stop taking every big winning trip
as an excuse to go shopping, I would be in better shape - since a 4k
win isn't really a 4k win but my win is my long term rate really. :slight_smile:

Sabyl

···

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:02:35 -0700, you wrote:

Hi I can sure relate to the royal drought myself. I play 5 days a week
and have only hit 2 royals all year. Mostly everyone I talk to seems to
be doing particularly badly this year. How many people are actually
ahead this year? Raise your hand. :slight_smile: I have been playing for 10 years
and I have never seen anything resembling this or even heard of so much
ugly news from other players. A lot of crazy rumors are going around
with chips in poker machines, that casinos can actually change VP % by
leaving the payable the same but changing the percentage down to 98% or
so, like a slot machine. I hate to believe this but sometimes I wonder.
A friend told me they heard from a slot person that this is happening.
What does everyone else think? I lose 48 out of 50 nights I play and not
only am I at 2 royals for the whole year but cant even ever book a win
against the drop. I might add, to those of you that don't know me, I am
not a beginner. I'm a very experienced player and only play "advantages"
Ha Ha! Things that are suppose to be advantageous anyway! So by a raise
of hands, how many are actually ahead for the year? Then I guess I will
know it's just me. By the way Glen, if you are reading this, that
progressive is still up there..:slight_smile: Thanks in advance, everyone...Jodie
SHA

-----Original Message-----
From: vpdeuces [mailto:vpdeu…@…com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:29 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Pep Talk needed - please help!

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "john_chinnock" <chinnock@h...> wrote:

I know that there are many higher-stakes players than me on these
boards, and I'm sure that people have experienced way worse
downswings than this, so I just wanted to know if someone else

could

share their horror stories of VP past, and perhaps provide a pep

talk

for the rest of us.

First, I'm not a higher-stake player, but I'm in the middle of my own
Royal drought, so I can relate. The jump to dollars can be
unnerving. One thing I would suggest is to drop down to $.50.
You'll get increased comps and cashback over quarters but you'll also
have more staying power than with dollars. Look for multi-denom
machines with the better games.

I know many of these posts sound like ads, but it would help to
reread the VP chapter in "More Frugal Gambling," especially the last
section, Knowing What To Expect. Many of us have had success in
playing VP early on and are shaken by long periods of nothing. It's
hard not to be, but for now I'll keep plugging away. Who knows, I
might even reread some of that stuff about penalty cards!!

Finally, VP has to remain fun for me to stay in the game. It would
stop being fun for me if I was down the value of 5 royals at any
denomination. That's my limit; everyone else will have a different
threshold.

Drew

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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#34

Decent post, sab. But you've lost me in the following text:

By the way, being 5 royal cycles without a royal doesn't mean
being down $20,000 (4000x5) but rather means you have played approx
450k hands X 5 (give or take hands based on game you play), which
means approx 2.3M hands which means anywhere from 2k-3k hours
depending on how fast you play. So if you are playing 5 hours a day
then that means a year and half playing day in and day out for 5
hours a day. Do you see what I am saying here? If you've only been
playing dollars for a short time it is highly unlikely that you are
5 royal cyles behind. You are stuck the dollar equivalent of 5
royals.

Assuming a 40K royal cycle, 5 royals is 200K hands. If we allow 800
hands per hour, that's 250 hours. There's every indication from
John's email that he and his wife have been playing very hard -- quite
possibly most every weekend. If we credit them with a combined 10
hours play per day in the casino that's 25 days. Allow a 2 day
stretch of play (say Fri noon to Sun noon) each weekend that's about
13 weekends.

That's cutting it close for the stated 3 months of $1 play, but I'm
both willing to allow for a little rounding in the 5 royal estimate
(maybe we're actually talking 4.5) and also that they've averaging
more than 20 hours of play per weekend. Speaking from my wife's and
my experience in the casino, with my wife putting in half the play I
do, 20 hours play isn't unusual so it's credible that they put in more
than that in a weekend, especially if they're actually on the floor
for close to 3 full days.

So, I'm willing to take it at face value that they've put in the 200K
hands these last 3 months that would qualify as 5 royal cycles of play.

As far as their expected loss given this royal drought, if they're
playing at breakeven expectation then $20K is right on. To the extent
that they're playing at a modest negative or positive ER, then the
$20K is adjusted accordingly.

It's a loss stretch like this that emphasizes just how important it is
to consistently play at an advantage, where possible, in order to have
an expected cushion when these droughts occur.

- Harry

#35

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@y...>
wrote:

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree with most everything you say, Rock, however what can the

VP

community realistically do about this? Outside of quitting, which
most of us will never do voluntarily,

Not to pick on your post, but as long as people are unwilling to
quit they will be in a disadvantageous position in regard to the
casinos. It seems to me that the secret to "advantage" play is the
willingness to walk away whenever conditions are not good.

I thought long and hard about becoming a vp "professional". I
probably would have failed if I had tried. But the reason I didn't
make the commitment was that I didn't want to tie myself to the
casinos. I wanted to be able to walk away at any time.

I decided to invest the time I would have spent on becoming a
professional into my career instead. Although as a professional I
could have theoretically walked away at any time. The investment of
time I would have spent finding the right plays and learning the
games carried some opportunity costs that would have limited my
possibilities for having a successful life outside the casinos.

At my crucial moment, I had an opportunity to transfer into Las
Vegas at an entry-level position or accept a promotion in an area
with no vp. I like vp a lot, I love the search for the right plays
and the great opportunities. But I just didn't want to make a major
life decision around something that could disappear tomorrow.

I think that was professional approach to my decision to walk away
from the opportunity to play vp everyday. I think that the problem
is that the vp community has backed itself into a corner in which it
has linked itself too closely to casinos. Many people will play bad
vp rather than no vp. That's the real casino secret behind vp. The
people really at the mercy of the casinos aren't the casual gamblers
but the "professionals" who don't play in a professional manner.

Don Vito

#36

Strange things happen in the world of gambling. If I were the
parinoid type (which I am not) I would think there is something wrong
in Harrah's in Kansas City. I have played VP there since they opened
the doors 10 years ago and still visit at least once a week. During
this time I have played hundreds of thousands of hands and have NEVER
hit a royal at Harrah's. However, Lucky Lucy has hit bunches of them
sitting next to me.

So I figure Harrah's has secret code in their slot card readers and
when my card goes into a machine they activate a royal blocker.
"Let's get old Loosing Rick". :wink:

Rick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jodi's Mail" <jsmall12@c...> wrote:

I AGREE. THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. A LOT OF PROS ARE BEGINNING TO
WONDER..EVEN ME, WHO WOULD OF NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS IN MY WHOLE 10 YRS
OF PLAY REGARGLESS OF MY TERRIBLE LOSING STREAKS IN THE PAST. JODIE

#37

Assuming a 40K royal cycle, 5 royals is 200K hands. If we allow 800
hands per hour, that's 250 hours. There's every indication from
John's email that he and his wife have been playing very hard -- quite
possibly most every weekend. If we credit them with a combined 10
hours play per day in the casino that's 25 days. Allow a 2 day
stretch of play (say Fri noon to Sun noon) each weekend that's about
13 weekends.

Oops - forgive my math error - that's what I get for posting a math
issue and responding late at night. You are right - certainly
possible.

It's a loss stretch like this that emphasizes just how important it is
to consistently play at an advantage, where possible, in order to have
an expected cushion when these droughts occur.

True

Sabyl
embarrassed and realizing posting when I'm cranky and sleepy is
probably a bad idea :slight_smile:

#38

sabyl55 wrote:

... embarrassed and realizing posting when I'm cranky and sleepy is
probably a bad idea :slight_smile:

Don't be. The only ones who never post a statement that's out of left
field from time to time are those who place a total chokehold on
themselves, for fear of being incorrect and thought the fool ...
robbing others of their insights.

- H.

#39

I AGREE. THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. A LOT OF PROS ARE

BEGINNING TO

WONDER..EVEN ME, WHO WOULD OF NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS IN MY WHOLE 10

YRS

OF PLAY REGARGLESS OF MY TERRIBLE LOSING STREAKS IN THE PAST. JODIE

From: jackessiebabe [mailto:jackessiebabe@y…]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 4:49 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Poop Talk

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"

<rockofjello333@y...>

> wrote

> >
> There's also something that I'd like to mention, that I already
know
> that the VP community at large heartily disagrees with, but we
take
> it on faith--WITHOUT VERIFICATION OF ANY KIND--that the VP
machines
> are 100% honest. I say "on faith" because I've NEVER seen--or
heard
> of for that matter--Gaming officials marching into a casino

floor

> unannounced and grabbing a VP machine, to have it taken back to
the
> lab. I know how easy it would be to, for instance, have the A's
come
> up slightly less often, or the 2's on a DW machine. Just a

little

> biasing on the part of thr "RNG" (there is no such thing as an
> actual Random Number Generator) and there goes our 0.7%

advantage,

> poof, just like that. Just a thought...I don't like the idea of
> spending $1 million bucks (that's what we dollar players shove
into
> the machines in a year) and not being SURE everything is on the
> level.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree with most everything you say, Rock, however what can the

VP

community realistically do about this? Outside of quitting, which
most of us will never do voluntarily, what recourse do we have to
force the casinos to PROVE that the FPVP will pay off (in the long-
run, of course) according to computer generated math with which

they

had NOTHING whatever to do. I think that proving that vp payoffs

are

only controlled by the pay schedule, and not rigged in any way, is

a

fruitless task. Anyway, thanks for an interesting post.

I believe that VP in Nevada is basically honest. The Commission
could no more let dishonest machines persist than the Feds could let
phony Franklins circulate. Too much potential to kill the golden
goose. Nevertheless, it is logical that the Commission not publicly
fry casinos in most cases for the same reason. Furthermore, pros
have made a good case to me that machines were likely rigged in
certain cases. One pro related that back in the days of $1 FPDW a
large bank of machines which had the ringer for a RF go off once a
day, did not go off for several weeks after work on the bank.
Certainly the programming to modify a machine is not that
complicated. If a casino were loosing money or trying to sell itself
based on current earning, it might be desperate to risk tampering,
even if the risked loss of license.

My suggestion is to set up an exploratory meeting (involving several
concerned players) with the Commission to see if they are amenable
to testing machines when presented with statistical anomalies based
on large multi-player experience. I wouldn't expect the Commission
to necessarily embrace the idea, however they would be loathe to
reject it because negative publicity could also engender loss of
confidence.

David

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jodi's Mail" <jsmall12@c...> wrote:

-----Original Message-----

#40

5-play Multistrike is also available at Peppermill. JB was full pay in quarters. I did not have time to check the other paytables.

Sylvia

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "MJRaposa" <MJRaposa@aol.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 10:44 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Addiction warning for multi-strike addicts

I noticed this game for the first time at the Atlantis in Reno this
weekend. Along the walkway near the concierge tower elevators.
Didn't get a look at the paytables though.

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