I feel your pain, Harry. That is the way I felt about another obvious
machine programming error that a member of this list seems determined to repeatedly
'out'
In a message dated 1/29/2005 6:25:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
harry.porter@verizon.net writes:
Damn! There goes one of the better kept LVH secrets.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Add another who hopes this doesn't get fixed. I noticed this during
my mid-November trip.....
I feel your pain, Harry. That is the way I felt about another
obvious
machine programming error that a member of this list seems
determined to repeatedly
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, ezfromnwon@a... wrote:
'out'
In a message dated 1/29/2005 6:25:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
harry.porter@v... writes:
Damn! There goes one of the better kept LVH secrets.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amazing.....as much as people talk about being honest
about what plays are out there that they would be
upset about the LVH AA play being outed.
Would love to know how long you actually knew about
it and didn't telling anyone.For the person who did
"out" it....congrats.Seems there are many on here who
want to get info on good plays but when they find one
they keep it quiet.Selfish I say.
SteveB
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
steve bork wrote:
Amazing.....as much as people talk about being honest
about what plays are out there that they would be
upset about the LVH AA play being outed.
Would love to know how long you actually knew about
it and didn't telling anyone.For the person who did
"out" it....congrats.Seems there are many on here who
want to get info on good plays but when they find one
they keep it quiet.Selfish I say.
I'll comment on this ... and hope I don't quickly regret doing so.
My own reply was purely tongue in cheek. I play AA principally
because I enjoy the challenge of the strategy ... but it's small
potatoes in my LVH play -- I prefer DW and multiplay, not to mention
not dealing with coin (or have they finally ticketed those GameMakers?
... haven't been there since the ownership change).
There are two schools of players: those who share everything under
the sun and those who share all but the more exceptional plays. (Ok,
there are the lurkers, but I'll set them aside.) I'm of the latter
group, but can't discount the motivation of the first.
Frankly, anyone who's been around the vp block at least once has seen
an exceptional play "outed", only to see it suddenly removed by the
casino. That's occurred sufficiently to make me err on the side of
caution. (But I bridle at the suggestion that I may be "dishonest" in
some respect.)
That's the only reason to be a little discrete with some plays.
Behaving selfishly rarely produces a positive result and isn't a
motive here.
As far as this particular game, I expect that there's limited actual
threat from open disclosure. Let's hope so, anyways.
- Harry
steve bork wrote:
Amazing.....as much as people talk about being honest
about what plays are out there that they would be
upset about the LVH AA play being outed.
Would love to know how long you actually knew about
it and didn't telling anyone.For the person who did
"out" it....congrats.Seems there are many on here who
want to get info on good plays but when they find one
they keep it quiet.Selfish I say.
Well, no, not really. More of a public service, actually. Most VP/slot club writers (as well as dozens, if not hundreds, of members of this forum - the LVH is a very popular play for visitors and locals alike) in LV have known about this one for about 6 months, and the selfish thing to do would be to make it the headline of their next column... because while it makes for great reading, it's probably an oversight by LVH, and publicizing the play would therefore kill it. They may fix the cashback rate, or worse, they may simply kill off these aging machines.
It's all spilt milk now, but it's quite possible that this thread will go unnoticed by the LVH. Most casino management sorts don't bother joining forums like this. However, if this becomes a long diatribe about the ethics of posting plays, and with extended finger-pointing and rancor, it almost certainly WILL be noticed. I suggest we end this discussion (or at least conduct it using private emails), and strive never to speak of this again.
-John, who hopes he has the last word.
As a visitor to Las Vegas I rely entirely on this site and
vphomepage for my VP inventory information. Without these sites it
would take me days to find any remotely good plays. Because of this
when I find a good play I almost always like to "give back" to the
group. In fact, I was a little disappointed that someone else beat
me to the punch by a couple of hours with their posting.
I hope the play lasts, if not I am sure others will follow (if not
then my golf game could use some extra work anyway!). Thanks to
everyone who contributes to this site (especially Tom).
Cheers
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:
steve bork wrote:
> Amazing.....as much as people talk about being honest
> about what plays are out there that they would be
> upset about the LVH AA play being outed.
> Would love to know how long you actually knew about
> it and didn't telling anyone.For the person who did
> "out" it....congrats.Seems there are many on here who
> want to get info on good plays but when they find one
> they keep it quiet.Selfish I say.I'll comment on this ... and hope I don't quickly regret doing so.
My own reply was purely tongue in cheek. I play AA principally
because I enjoy the challenge of the strategy ... but it's small
potatoes in my LVH play -- I prefer DW and multiplay, not to
mention
not dealing with coin (or have they finally ticketed those
GameMakers?
... haven't been there since the ownership change).
There are two schools of players: those who share everything under
the sun and those who share all but the more exceptional plays.
(Ok,
there are the lurkers, but I'll set them aside.) I'm of the latter
group, but can't discount the motivation of the first.Frankly, anyone who's been around the vp block at least once has
seen
an exceptional play "outed", only to see it suddenly removed by the
casino. That's occurred sufficiently to make me err on the side of
caution. (But I bridle at the suggestion that I may
be "dishonest" in
some respect.)
That's the only reason to be a little discrete with some plays.
Behaving selfishly rarely produces a positive result and isn't a
motive here.As far as this particular game, I expect that there's limited
actual
threat from open disclosure. Let's hope so, anyways.
- Harry
Your right Steve - you cant have your cake and eat it too!
The #1 objective of this group is to disseminate good machine and play location.
regards...Tom
----- Original Message ----- From: "steve bork" <stevebork@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: LV Hilton CB Report
Amazing.....as much as people talk about being honest
about what plays are out there that they would be
upset about the LVH AA play being outed.
Would love to know how long you actually knew about
it and didn't telling anyone.For the person who did
"out" it....congrats.Seems there are many on here who
want to get info on good plays but when they find one
they keep it quiet.Selfish I say.SteveB
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:
steve bork wrote:
> Amazing.....as much as people talk about being honest
> about what plays are out there that they would be
> upset about the LVH AA play being outed.
> Would love to know how long you actually knew about
> it and didn't telling anyone.For the person who did
> "out" it....congrats.Seems there are many on here who
> want to get info on good plays but when they find one
> they keep it quiet.Selfish I say.
This post is in no way critical of what Harry posted. I totataly
concur with him. There are some plays you keep to yourself or good
friends, but others you don't mind sharing with the group as a
whole. To find these jewels you have to look around many locations
and put in some time doing so. I feel as though after going through
this much "work" you should be able to reap the benifits of your
efforts for a nominal amount of time before broadcasting it.
Selfish "no" only self preserving.
Paul
So you can do the slot ops work of casino management for them. Very
clever of you.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tomflush" <tomflush@n...> wrote:
Your right Steve - you cant have your cake and eat it too!
The #1 objective of this group is to disseminate good machine and play
location.
In my mind, either we share information within this group, or we
don't.
Maybe I am just too simple minded to see the subtleties of "keeping
the best plays to ourselves".
.....bl
> steve bork wrote:
> > Amazing.....as much as people talk about being honest
> > about what plays are out there that they would be
> > upset about the LVH AA play being outed.
> > Would love to know how long you actually knew about
> > it and didn't telling anyone.For the person who did
> > "out" it....congrats.Seems there are many on here who
> > want to get info on good plays but when they find one
> > they keep it quiet.Selfish I say.
>
In my mind this site is here to share info period. To think a casino
is going to read these boards to find good play "holes" in their
properties is silly. For each machine they have the hold data for
each day, month and year. If a machine is not making enough it will
probably be replaced. To my mind this direct data is much more
valuable to the casino than info from vegas boards.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@y...>
wrote:
In my mind, either we share information within this group, or we
don't.Maybe I am just too simple minded to see the subtleties
of "keeping
the best plays to ourselves".
.....bl
> > steve bork wrote:
> > > Amazing.....as much as people talk about being honest
> > > about what plays are out there that they would be
> > > upset about the LVH AA play being outed.
> > > Would love to know how long you actually knew about
> > > it and didn't telling anyone.For the person who did
> > > "out" it....congrats.Seems there are many on here who
> > > want to get info on good plays but when they find one
> > > they keep it quiet.Selfish I say.
> >
It was already disseminated abt 6 months ago. Don't need to discuss much.
JAS
----- Original Message -----
From: "tomflush" <tomflush@nyc.rr.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: LV Hilton CB Report
Your right Steve - you cant have your cake and eat it too!
The #1 objective of this group is to disseminate good machine and play
location.regards...Tom
rosspark100 wrote:
In my mind this site is here to share info period. To think a casino
is going to read these boards to find good play "holes" in their
properties is silly. For each machine they have the hold data for
each day, month and year. If a machine is not making enough it will
probably be replaced. To my mind this direct data is much more
valuable to the casino than info from vegas boards.
I am a little hesitant to post on this because Tom and I don't quite see eye to eye on this isssue, (although I'd say we are at least in 90% agreement) and I am a guest here. But I believe I know as much and probably more about this topic than anyone. So here goes:
I agree, and have always agreed, with rosspark's common sense that the casinos know what machines they have in house, what games are on them, and what kind of hold they are getting and they don't need to lurk on Internet forums to find out these things. In fact, some of of them (the "old school" type) would be ticked off at the very idea.
However, I have also learned through many years of experience that the younger, smarter, and more computer-wise casino folks do keep an eye on the gambling sites on the Internet and I believe a huge free one like this is an obvious place - it would be the first place I would monitor if I were a casino person, both because of the fact that it's free and open to the public, but also because of the very open policy you are discussing.
But mostly, I don't think that's a bad thing, not only because of the point about the casinos already knowing their inventory, but because often they lurk on these groups in order to find out what the player wants and how they can attract them. There are a couple of instances of this I can point out. One example is the new mailers being mailed out by the Barbary Coast with the verbiage ""I am pleased to announced that all our Deuces Wild games, quarter and above, have been restored to NSUD." Of course, I am always get a kick out of it when a casino uses that term (and even IGT has used it on it's web site), but what is more interesting is that I have been told that Lisa Vios is a member of this group. If, in fact, that's true, then it has obviously been a benefit.
For a number of years the slot director at MSS, Hal Welch was a member of vpmail. John and I both spoke to him about it. He didn't even try to hide his ID but used his boyd gaming address to join. He told us he wanted to see what players wanted. We were very nervous about this but shared it with the membership and he proved his honesty by leaving the best plays in his casino for years after that and when he finally removed the old Bally gamemakers (w/10/7/80), he told us in a direct mail that I passed along to the group, that he would be adding something as good or better and he did - fpdw. BTW, here's an example where the Internet folks DID have better information. When he first told us he had installed the fpdw, a number of folks went out and checked and we got back to him "No you didn't!" It turned out that the slot techs screwed up and put up the wrong pay table - it was quickly corrected. We have had other casino people on vpmail in the past, but the ones I knew about for sure were mostly hosts - again, if I was a casino host, I would certainly be on this (VPFREE) group.
But that story about the MSS deuces bring up a point that rosspark's note overlooks: There are times when the casino folks DON'T know something about the casino floor. In other words a mistake like the MSS slot techs made can go the other way and it might take a while for them to find out. Some of these cases involve slot points. How to deal with this is has always been a problem and after seven years of doing this I still have no good answers and I haven't seen any good ones from anyone else. Insular, subscription groups like vphomepage.com /VPInsider.com have a little different set of circumstances. Sometimes an item can be discreetly pointed out to the alert members and then left alone. This happened in this case. A big (huge, actually) public group like VPFREE does not really have that option. Tom has decided it's better for VPFREE to have an "open play" policy and I sincerely respect that. And in fact, for this kind of group perhaps that is the only kind of viable policy. But there is no getting away from the fact that openly publicizing a "casino mistake" will usually not have the effect of sharing it, but of killing it. I doubt anyone can seriously dispute that. No doubt, for 99% of VPFREE members this is a small price to pay for the tremendous valuable information they get here. Call it collateral damage, I guess. Is it necessary? My opinion would be no, but others will disagree.
Just my observations, based on my experience. This is a difficult problem and I doubt there will ever be an answer that is satisfactory to everyone
Thanks,
Skip
It all goes back to what Bob Dancer once wrote - that everyone loves open information on the Internet and loves all the books, software, and other resources that make them smarter gamblers UNTIL they personally have become very skilled. NOW they want to shut off this geyser of information to anyone else.
It's an impossible issue to "settle."
________________________________________
Jean $�ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards and for the
Frugal series of books. Now is the time you might
need "Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler."
Skip: I basically agree with everything you say, however, in this particular instance I don't believe that the effect will be that great.
My reason for this is that very few people play All American, and that is the only good game on those machines. Even if they do
change these machines back to .33% that will only cost the average player about $25 per day, plus I believe that these old machines
are probably on the list for being replaced by shiny new TITO machines.
Regards
A.P.
----- Original Message -----
From: Skip Hughes
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Outing Plays
I agree, and have always agreed, with rosspark's common sense that the
casinos know what machines they have in house, what games are on them,
and what kind of hold they are getting and they don't need to lurk on
Internet forums to find out these things. In fact, some of of them (the
"old school" type) would be ticked off at the very idea.
However, I have also learned through many years of experience that the
younger, smarter, and more computer-wise casino folks do keep an eye on
the gambling sites on the Internet and I believe a huge free one like
this is an obvious place - it would be the first place I would monitor
if I were a casino person, both because of the fact that it's free and
open to the public, but also because of the very open policy you are
discussing.
But mostly, I don't think that's a bad thing, not only because of the
point about the casinos already knowing their inventory, but because
often they lurk on these groups in order to find out what the player
wants and how they can attract them. There are a couple of instances of
this I can point out. One example is the new mailers being mailed out by
the Barbary Coast with the verbiage ""I am pleased to announced that all
our Deuces Wild games, quarter and above, have been restored to NSUD."
Of course, I am always get a kick out of it when a casino uses that term
(and even IGT has used it on it's web site), but what is more
interesting is that I have been told that Lisa Vios is a member of this
group. If, in fact, that's true, then it has obviously been a benefit.
For a number of years the slot director at MSS, Hal Welch was a member
of vpmail. John and I both spoke to him about it. He didn't even try to
hide his ID but used his boyd gaming address to join. He told us he
wanted to see what players wanted. We were very nervous about this but
shared it with the membership and he proved his honesty by leaving the
best plays in his casino for years after that and when he finally
removed the old Bally gamemakers (w/10/7/80), he told us in a direct
mail that I passed along to the group, that he would be adding something
as good or better and he did - fpdw. BTW, here's an example where the
Internet folks DID have better information. When he first told us he had
installed the fpdw, a number of folks went out and checked and we got
back to him "No you didn't!" It turned out that the slot techs screwed
up and put up the wrong pay table - it was quickly corrected. We have
had other casino people on vpmail in the past, but the ones I knew about
for sure were mostly hosts - again, if I was a casino host, I would
certainly be on this (VPFREE) group.
But that story about the MSS deuces bring up a point that rosspark's
note overlooks: There are times when the casino folks DON'T know
something about the casino floor. In other words a mistake like the MSS
slot techs made can go the other way and it might take a while for them
to find out. Some of these cases involve slot points. How to deal with
this is has always been a problem and after seven years of doing this I
still have no good answers and I haven't seen any good ones from anyone
else. Insular, subscription groups like vphomepage.com /VPInsider.com
have a little different set of circumstances. Sometimes an item can be
discreetly pointed out to the alert members and then left alone. This
happened in this case. A big (huge, actually) public group like VPFREE
does not really have that option. Tom has decided it's better for VPFREE
to have an "open play" policy and I sincerely respect that. And in fact,
for this kind of group perhaps that is the only kind of viable policy.
But there is no getting away from the fact that openly publicizing a
"casino mistake" will usually not have the effect of sharing it, but of
killing it. I doubt anyone can seriously dispute that. No doubt, for 99%
of VPFREE members this is a small price to pay for the tremendous
valuable information they get here. Call it collateral damage, I guess.
Is it necessary? My opinion would be no, but others will disagree.
Just my observations, based on my experience. This is a difficult
problem and I doubt there will ever be an answer that is satisfactory to
everyone
Thanks,
Skip
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Albert Pearson wrote:
I believe that these old machines
are probably on the list for being replaced by shiny new TITO machines.
I suspect you're right - All American is almost gone now and when the LVH machines go, it will not likely come back in LV. Most people don't play it, but that's no consolation for those that do.
Skip
Albert Pearson wrote:
Skip: I basically agree with everything you say, however, in this
particular instance I don't believe that the effect will be that
great.
My reason for this is that very few people play All American, and
that is the only good game on those machines. Even if they do
change these machines back to .33% that will only cost the average
player about $25 per day, plus I believe that these old machines
are probably on the list for being replaced by shiny new TITO
machines.
You're on target, here, AP.
Truth is, I never went out of my way to mention the cb "bonus" to
anyone since it presented absolutely no compelling reason to play AA
if they weren't already attracted to the game. (And the "$25 per day"
value is clearly inflated; damned few hammered away at those
coin-droppers for a full 8 hours in a day.)
The only reason not to discuss these machines was the possibility that
management might rethink the cb on these machines ... which I don't
think was a mistake but a conscious decision, reasoning that as a
whole these machine draw greater keno play. But given the chance for
reconsideration, I'd prefer to play it safe. Especially since I
really doubt now that this info has been "outed", anyone's going to go
rushing for the machines.
This is a case where I expect no one will appreciably benefit from
this "share", nor would be expected to. (Aside for bragging rights
for the one to air it.) However, those who currently enjoy the game
(and likely would play it with or without the cb boost) may suffer as
a consequence.
No one need post that they differ in opinion (clearly more than one
will), but I don't see any winners in this particular situation.
Granted, it's more likely than not there aren't any losers either. I
think it simply surfaces one unambiguous instance where this "play"
might have best been kept under wraps.
Trust me when I say I'm not losing any sleep over this. But, like AP,
I think Skip's made a clean call here.
- Harry
However, I have also learned through many years of experience that
the
younger, smarter, and more computer-wise casino folks do keep an eye on
the gambling sites on the Internet and I believe a huge free one like
this is an obvious place - it would be the first place I would monitor
And vpfree is monitored, trust me.
But there is no getting away from the fact that openly publicizing a
"casino mistake" will usually not have the effect of sharing it, but of
killing it.
Or a mistaken attempt at goodwill towards locals, like the $2 FPDW at
Harvey's (which I remember, was someone's "Thanksgiving Treat)?
I think any quarter play is safe (I can not believe the discussion
over the LVH AA-if you're that good to get max EV out of that machine,
you're wasting your talents), or pretty much anything up to $1 10/7
with reasonable mail. After that, you're asking for the burnout
artists (who also monitor vpfree). Again, consider the Harvey's
debacle. I did smile when I heard some Vegas team players (the
absolute bottom of the AP food chain) got backed off the game for
overplaying it.
Y'all crack me up. I once mentioned about a $1 FPDW game in Clark
County (there are at least two I know of-good luck finding them!), and
I thought the woman was going to offer to drop the panties in exchange
for the location.
I appreciate that everyone wants something for nothing, and although
the commercial Internet is approaching 15 years old, we're still
wedded to the thought that because it's on the net, we should get
something for free. Frankly, these sites (as well as the pay ones)
only hurt my EV. I rely on my own private backchannel for info, and
even then, we don't share the absolute best plays.
For example, I found out a little too late about the quarter 100-play
at a Caesars Entertainment casino which had mostly FP games on it. My
guess is that those games would have stayed there almost forever had
Harrah's management not walked through and had a cow over seeing it.
But if you do this full time, scouting is a must and the information
gleaned is too valuable to really share (although I have shared stuff
here in the past). The more suckers playing "my" machines, the longer
those machines will stay in service, and the more pros (especially the
ones who are "hot") playing those same machines will cause the plays
to be shut down. The word does get out eventually, but my EV locally
is still several thousand a month on a relatively limited bankroll.
There are still decent plays out there, but you have to go out and
find them on your own.
I suspect you're right - All American is almost gone now and when the
LVH machines go, it will not likely come back in LV. Most people don't
play it, but that's no consolation for those that do.
Skip
The newer Game Makers have AA with 150 and 175 coin quads.
I am told you'll see TITO Game Makers within 6 months-they were
recently approved in NV-and I'm also told that when that happens,
you'll probably see the reappearance of a much beloved $5 Game Maker
somewhere in the Silver State.
There was a progressive bank at GVR that had been programed wrong
and the resets on the progressives started the game out at 101.8.
This went from the day they opened until April of the following
year. I had the honor of hitting the last progressive meter before
it reset to it's corrected new value. When I looked up at the meter
I thought to myself, "son of a gun, they finally fixed it".
Although I have no problem sharing info that is common knowledge, I
was not going to advertise this play. It was often in the 103% range
and most of the people playing the bank didn't even realize it.