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Jeffrey Compton SS Stepping Up Column - MAR 2008

In a message dated 4/2/08 8:07:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, vpFae@Cox.net
writes:

What you should know about players club tiers,
and how to pick one that works for you

http://strictlyslots.com/archive/0803ss/steppingup.htm

<A HREF="http://strictlyslots.com/archive/0803ss/steppingup.htm">
http://strictlyslots.com/archive/0803ss/steppingup.htm</A>

************************************************

A Quote from the article:

"The first time I ever tried to “go to the head of the class” was on a trip
to Laughlin, which was one of the first gaming regions to take tiered clubs
seriously.

I was with a friend who had hit a decent jackpot using our pooled funds, so
we decided to reach the highest tier at was then the Pioneer’s All American
Round-Up Club. As I recall, we needed about $25,000 coin-in to qualify, which we
did over the course of the weekend. For our efforts we collected some nice
cash bonuses, and were guaranteed a $10 room rate for future stays."

I enjoy the old stories about the Pioneer Hotel & Gambling Hall. I signed-up
in Summer of 1995 myself to be a "Cowpoke". The Pioneer was the first Nevada
casino to introduce a slot club. These were the old punch card style cards.
You really had to pay attention to make sure you were greeted with the right
name. I just wonder how many points "Sharon" got from me.

Pioneer installed the first Acres card system as an upgrade on the River. It
greets you, tells you your points and current comp $ balance. During any
promo it tells you the multiplier and actually keeps a running count for the play
session. What is so hard about that you other non-informative casinos?

Pioneer also has a fine first 24 hour new sign-up promo. Currently earning
3000 points lifetime ($12k coin-in on VP) will get you two comped nights
Sun-Thursday each month. All you need is $1k/month to keep them going.

More Pioneer stories please...

Bluestreak
    
<BR><BR>**************<BR>Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.<BR>
  (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
</HTML>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

More Pioneer stories? It is interesting that the Pioneer had the
first slot club, but in this day and age they have not converted at
all to ticket in ticket out. They are still 100% coin operation. Up
until a few years ago you could play an old mechanical slot machine.
It is still there at the entrance to Sassy Sue's bar, but it is no
longer opereational. Also speaking of Sassy Sue's bar, it is amazing
to me that they have a good selection of premium expensive beers on
tap. They will comp them for players too.

Remember old Vegas Vic? Well, his brother River Rick is still in
operation with his huge arm waving to all in the Laughlin area. Also,
the grounds at the Pioneer are the nicest kept along the river walk.

They also do a free video poker and slot tournament each week. There
is a catch however. You have to give them a minimum amount of play to
be eligible to enter. How much? $20 is all that is required.

I enjoy the old stories about the Pioneer Hotel & Gambling Hall. I
signed-up

in Summer of 1995 myself to be a "Cowpoke". The Pioneer was the

first Nevada

casino to introduce a slot club. These were the old punch card

style cards.

You really had to pay attention to make sure you were greeted with

the right

name. I just wonder how many points "Sharon" got from me.

Pioneer installed the first Acres card system as an upgrade on the

River. It

greets you, tells you your points and current comp $ balance.

During any

promo it tells you the multiplier and actually keeps a running

count for the play

session. What is so hard about that you other non-informative

casinos?

Pioneer also has a fine first 24 hour new sign-up promo. Currently

earning

3000 points lifetime ($12k coin-in on VP) will get you two comped

nights

Sun-Thursday each month. All you need is $1k/month to keep them

going.

More Pioneer stories please...

Bluestreak
    
<BR><BR>**************<BR>Planning your summer road trip? Check out

AOL Travel Guides.<BR>

  (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?

ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, GRAYTLEEGRAY@... wrote:

</HTML>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My memory is faded as to names of the systems, hustlers involved,
events that happened, and many of the details. But, Gray, nothing is
made up in the following story. I'll have to change some names, if I
use any, to protect the guilty. This story may take a few posts.

SPRING 2002

So there I was. Walking into the Vegas Club again for the latest copy
of Gaming Today. I didn't read it for gambling advice, that was all
junk. It was the Gaming Business News I was interested in. You'd be
surprised how one could read between the lines of the news snippets
and maybe come up with a play.

I picked the copy up at the Sportsbook desk, grabbed a seat and
started flipping the pages. And there it was: "The Pioneer Hotel &
Gambliing Hall set to Install Acres Gamings Double Time System."

I can't remember what year Mandalay Bay opened up, but it was a major
hustlers convention for the first two months because of the leaks
hustlers had figured out in Acres Gamings "Lucky Coin Bonus System."
These are the systems hustlers call the "will go" or the "must go."
I'm sure Stations Jumbo Jackpots is a morphed edition of it.
Basically, it's a progressive system where the money will go by a
certain amount, no one knows exactly when. A random number generator
is used to pick a coin number and whoever bets that specific coin
number gets the progressive. Hence, the name "Lucky Coin Bonus
System."

So, if you were to see a "must go" that starts at $100 and must go by
$500, and the meter, whioh runs at 2%, is sitting on $490, do you
think you might want to play that bank of slots? Even if the meter
went to the last penny you would have to run only $500 in action.
But, with the "lucky coin" being chosen at random, assuming you were
the only one on the bank, the average amount of action you would run
per play is only $250. There is no way to lose, and every way to
win, even if you have competition, by continually putting your money
into action like this.

Mandalay had about a dozen banks like this, nickels, quarters,
dollars and even big nickels, with every bank having two and three
different meters. And even though the "lucky coin" was random, it
was weighted to the highside. Lowside numbers were eliminated so they
continually ran to the highside--way, way, way to the highside.

And it didn't hurt that the place had lots of IGT Visions, Williams
bonusing games, and Silicon Gamings Oddyssey machines with ther
bonusing games, to goof around with when the meters on the "must
go's" were down.

Yep, it was a hustler's paradise. That is, until two months after
they opened. Mandalay got disgusted with the "must go's." Mostly
because of us hustlers tagging the tourists who were major dogs to
get any of the progressive money. Bonus money has to come from
somewhere. It came out of the line pays. The machines were lousy
for line pays. The tourists were complaining bitterly about no line
pays, and the hustler's were "Living Large in Las Vegas." So Mandalay
jerked the whole system out.

HUSTLER'S DOGMA: Make every grand opening of every new casino. You
never what you might find. And you will be one of the first if there
is anything. Word gets around quick. You want to be the one that
torches it.

Anyways, back to the story. After reading the little news snippet I
headed back to the hotel, packed my bags, walked over to the
Greyhound Station, and grabbed the next bus to Laughlin.

I have to do something consructive today. More later....

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, GRAYTLEEGRAY@... wrote:

More Pioneer stories please...

Bluestreak
    

I got into Laughlin and checked into the Pioneer. After dropping off
the luggage I went snooping around the casino to see if techs were
installing the system. There was no activity of that sort.

I ran into a few friends. They were regular Laughlin players and the
Pioneer was a good spot. I checked out the VP situation to see if
there had been any changes. The Flush Attacks, Jackpot Cards, The
Maxx, the Four-Play Oddyssey's with the 9/6 Jacks, the FPDW, the
psuedo FPDW progressive, the 9/7 DB four meter job, and the 8-Coin
dollar 9/6 Jacks with the quad meter were all still there. Great.

I took off up river. Next stop was the belle poker room where I knew
I would run into some old friends. I did. But I noticed a couple of
hustlers in the games that were not Laughlin regulars. I wondered
what was up with that. Maybe they know what might happen.

I took a look at the Omaha 8 games. I played the game frequently at
the Belle. It was a good spot because it was mostly bad playing
snowbirds. But the birds were fixing to fly. It was early April and
the snowbirds clear out of Laughlin by biker weekend (River Run), the
last weekend in April, and don't come back until the fall--it kills
the Omaha games.

Biker weekend was gonna be a problem for me if the Acres Gaming
system went in before that. You can't get a room anywhere in the
area. But, then, I still didn't know whether the system was gonna be
exploitable or not.

I took off for the Edgewater, checking the bonus machines along the
way. My final destination was the Riverside Post Office. I had had
that P.O. box for about 5 years. I started out paying $14 a year for
but it was up to $35. The darn thing was worth at least 6 months a
year room comp and a couple thousand dollars in welfare checks
(bounceback, etc.) I had to grab my mail and plan my room comp
calendar.

I passed through the Edgewater and Flamingo snagging a few bonus
machine plays along the way and bumping into hustlers who ain't
supposed to be in Laughlin. It was getting comical. None of us
wanted to admit anything. Exchanging of pleasantries were going
along these lines:

"What the hell are YOU doing here?"
"Me? What the hell are YOU doing here?"

Yep! The cat was out of the bag. The town was packing in with
hustlers. Hustlers that should be in California, Oregon, New Mexico,
Mississippi, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, were piling into
Laughlin. Oh, Christ!!!

I lumbered into the Riverside just in time to see a couple more
hustlers on the no smoking flush attacks. I lapped the bonus
machines then headed for the smoking flush attacks. When I rounded
the corner I couldn't believe my eyes. Oh, God!!! A dozen hustlers
trying to pick off three tourists!!! Why me, Lord? I don't even
want to go to the North Tower Bar and check out the House A Rockin'.
It's bound to be ugly!!!

Oh, well. When life deals you lemons make lemonade. I went down and
grabbed my mail then headed back downriver to my hotel room. I had
to plan my room comp calendar.

Since late '97 the Pioneer was the centerpiece of my Laughlin RFB365
strategy. The quality of the rooms was the reason. Just joking.
The real reason was their video poker equipment, their comp system,
and promotions.

The Pioneer card was worth .166% cashback, .333% comp. They had
advantage video poker. And frequent promotions like double points,
and cards of the day, with infrequent promotions that were highly
lucrative. But it was their room comp system that was the big
attraction for me.

A room night cost 15 comp dollars. But you couldn't just put $15 on
the card and go and get a room. You had to have a minimum balance of
100 comp dollars after you bought the room. So you had to have 115
comp dollars on the card to get the room. For two nights 130, and so
on. I kept a high balance; around 400 or 500. But there was another
part of it that was the big easy. It only cost 15 comp dollars for a
weeknight, a Friday night, a Saturday night, or a Holiday night. I
kept a high balance so I could book 4 or five weekends in a row. And
I kept an eye out or 3 and 4 day holiday weekends coming up and
booked them at least a month and a half ahead of time.

Booking 4 weekends in a row covered 8 days of the month. Their
Getaway package covered another 2 days a month. I got 4 two-day
packages a month from River Palms. That's 18 days covered. The
Riverside Getaway covered another 2 days per month. The Ramada
Getaway added 3 more days per month but cost $11. That's 23 days out
of the month. I filled in the rest with infrequent mailings from the
Belle, Edgewater, Golden Nugget or used my comp balaces at River
Palms, Riverside, or the Ramada. And if I occasionally got stuck
payig for a night or two it was midweek, easy to get, and cheap.

HUSTLER'S DOGMA: Do not homestead. Repeat. Do not homestead. It's
okay for the losers to homestead. Casinos love homesteading losers.
They hate homesteading winners.

By using this rotating system I was never in one casino for more than
3 or 4 days. Most of it was two days at a time. And I never lost a
Laughlin casino.

On moving day I would pack up the rollaway, cab it to the next
casino, request an early check-in, leave the rollaway at the bell
desk if I didn't get it. And boom! I was back in action. I'd come
back and pick up the kays and the rollaway later.

I ate for free all up and down the River. But I never used my
Pioneer comp for meals. It was to important to keep it banked up.
                
More later.....

Judging from the offerings at most of these establishments, I wouldn't
call it "free", although Harrah's looks edible.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

I ate for free all up and down the River. But I never used my
Pioneer comp for meals. It was to important to keep it banked up.

> I ate for free all up and down the River. But I never used my
> Pioneer comp for meals. It was to important to keep it banked up.

Paladin wrote:

Judging from the offerings at most of these establishments, I wouldn't
call it "free", although Harrah's looks edible.

A picky eater I'm not. Anything beats my cooking.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:

Hi mickey:) What does hustlers trying to pick off three tourists mean?? I am a tourist in Laughlin. Thanks:)

mickeycrimm <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com> wrote: I got into Laughlin and checked into the Pioneer. After dropping off
the luggage I went snooping around the casino to see if techs were
installing the system. There was no activity of that sort.

I ran into a few friends. They were regular Laughlin players and the
Pioneer was a good spot. I checked out the VP situation to see if
there had been any changes. The Flush Attacks, Jackpot Cards, The
Maxx, the Four-Play Oddyssey's with the 9/6 Jacks, the FPDW, the
psuedo FPDW progressive, the 9/7 DB four meter job, and the 8-Coin
dollar 9/6 Jacks with the quad meter were all still there. Great.

I took off up river. Next stop was the belle poker room where I knew
I would run into some old friends. I did. But I noticed a couple of
hustlers in the games that were not Laughlin regulars. I wondered
what was up with that. Maybe they know what might happen.

I took a look at the Omaha 8 games. I played the game frequently at
the Belle. It was a good spot because it was mostly bad playing
snowbirds. But the birds were fixing to fly. It was early April and
the snowbirds clear out of Laughlin by biker weekend (River Run), the
last weekend in April, and don't come back until the fall--it kills
the Omaha games.

Biker weekend was gonna be a problem for me if the Acres Gaming
system went in before that. You can't get a room anywhere in the
area. But, then, I still didn't know whether the system was gonna be
exploitable or not.

I took off for the Edgewater, checking the bonus machines along the
way. My final destination was the Riverside Post Office. I had had
that P.O. box for about 5 years. I started out paying $14 a year for
but it was up to $35. The darn thing was worth at least 6 months a
year room comp and a couple thousand dollars in welfare checks
(bounceback, etc.) I had to grab my mail and plan my room comp
calendar.

I passed through the Edgewater and Flamingo snagging a few bonus
machine plays along the way and bumping into hustlers who ain't
supposed to be in Laughlin. It was getting comical. None of us
wanted to admit anything. Exchanging of pleasantries were going
along these lines:

"What the hell are YOU doing here?"
"Me? What the hell are YOU doing here?"

Yep! The cat was out of the bag. The town was packing in with
hustlers. Hustlers that should be in California, Oregon, New Mexico,
Mississippi, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, were piling into
Laughlin. Oh, Christ!!!

I lumbered into the Riverside just in time to see a couple more
hustlers on the no smoking flush attacks. I lapped the bonus
machines then headed for the smoking flush attacks. When I rounded
the corner I couldn't believe my eyes. Oh, God!!! A dozen hustlers
trying to pick off three tourists!!! Why me, Lord? I don't even
want to go to the North Tower Bar and check out the House A Rockin'.
It's bound to be ugly!!!

Oh, well. When life deals you lemons make lemonade. I went down and
grabbed my mail then headed back downriver to my hotel room. I had
to plan my room comp calendar.

Since late '97 the Pioneer was the centerpiece of my Laughlin RFB365
strategy. The quality of the rooms was the reason. Just joking.
The real reason was their video poker equipment, their comp system,
and promotions.

The Pioneer card was worth .166% cashback, .333% comp. They had
advantage video poker. And frequent promotions like double points,
and cards of the day, with infrequent promotions that were highly
lucrative. But it was their room comp system that was the big
attraction for me.

A room night cost 15 comp dollars. But you couldn't just put $15 on
the card and go and get a room. You had to have a minimum balance of
100 comp dollars after you bought the room. So you had to have 115
comp dollars on the card to get the room. For two nights 130, and so
on. I kept a high balance; around 400 or 500. But there was another
part of it that was the big easy. It only cost 15 comp dollars for a
weeknight, a Friday night, a Saturday night, or a Holiday night. I
kept a high balance so I could book 4 or five weekends in a row. And
I kept an eye out or 3 and 4 day holiday weekends coming up and
booked them at least a month and a half ahead of time.

Booking 4 weekends in a row covered 8 days of the month. Their
Getaway package covered another 2 days a month. I got 4 two-day
packages a month from River Palms. That's 18 days covered. The
Riverside Getaway covered another 2 days per month. The Ramada
Getaway added 3 more days per month but cost $11. That's 23 days out
of the month. I filled in the rest with infrequent mailings from the
Belle, Edgewater, Golden Nugget or used my comp balaces at River
Palms, Riverside, or the Ramada. And if I occasionally got stuck
payig for a night or two it was midweek, easy to get, and cheap.

HUSTLER'S DOGMA: Do not homestead. Repeat. Do not homestead. It's
okay for the losers to homestead. Casinos love homesteading losers.
They hate homesteading winners.

By using this rotating system I was never in one casino for more than
3 or 4 days. Most of it was two days at a time. And I never lost a
Laughlin casino.

On moving day I would pack up the rollaway, cab it to the next
casino, request an early check-in, leave the rollaway at the bell
desk if I didn't get it. And boom! I was back in action. I'd come
back and pick up the kays and the rollaway later.

I ate for free all up and down the River. But I never used my
Pioneer comp for meals. It was to important to keep it banked up.
                 
More later.....

···

---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If it weren't for Harrah's and Harlow's, I think I would starve in Laughlin:) Although the cookies left in the suite at Harrah's are sssoooo good:)

···

paladingamingllc <paladingamingllc@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

> I ate for free all up and down the River. But I never used my
> Pioneer comp for meals. It was to important to keep it banked up.

Judging from the offerings at most of these establishments, I wouldn't
call it "free", although Harrah's looks edible.

---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi mickey:) What does hustlers trying to pick off three tourists

mean?? I am a tourist in Laughlin. Thanks:)

It will be six years next month since I've been back to Laughlin.
Writing about it has made me a little homesick. I got heavily involved
in the Reno VP scene shortly after leaving Laughlin and the earning
power was such that it kept thoughts of RFB 365 in Laughlin from
creeping up on me. I payed my own rent in Reno---but I ate for free.
And, Yes, Paladin, the quality of the meals in Reno are much better
than Laughlin.

You would have to be an old Flush Attacker, I guess, to understand the
rediculousness of the situation I saw that night at the Riverside. The
smoking flush attacks sat at the base of the escalator up to the Bingo
Hall. It was an 18 machine linked-bank of flush attacks.

Flush Attack is an 8/5 Double Bonus game with every 4th flush paying
125 coins. When the machne goes into flush attack mode, at the top of
the screen, it will say "Flush Attack" next flush pays 125 coins."
This brings the theoretical up to 101.8% with expert strategy. But
ploppies playing this game probably couldn't do better than maybe 98%.
They just don't understand the value of the flush cards. They play the
game like it is regular jacks or better.

When they are linked together it becomes a collective effort to put the
machies into flush attack mode. It takes 15 points worth of flush.
Someone betting one coin, making a flush puts 1 point in. Someone
bettig 5 coins, making a flush puts 5 points in. At 15 points the
flush attack mode triggers on all the machines and the next person to
make a flush gets payed 25 for 1 (125 coins if you are betting 5
coins).

The game drew controversy everywhere. Hustlers would sit on the banks
playing only when the machines were in flush attack mode. It's the OPM
principle. The ploppies were paying the cost to trigger flush attack
mode and once the light came on they are competing against someone who
is cranking 15 hands a minute using flush125 strategy that produces a
flush every 42 games. Multiply that by the number of hustlers on the
bank and the ploppie doesn't stand a chance. At best, they might be at
94%.

There were probably 100 times more people thrown off that Riverside
flush attack bank than any other situation I've ever seen in Video
Poker. By 2002 the machines had been there for 8 years. Everyone knew
the score, change people, slot techs, security, casino hosts, Pat
Laughlin, Don Laughlin, everybody. You had to be sharp to keep that
bank.

So when I see 12 hustlers trying to pick off 3 tourists, this is what I
see. The ploppies might be cranking out 15 hands a minute
collectively. They are not using flush125, or even flush50, they are
using flush25. So they might trigger the light every 20 minutes. Each
light is worth a twenty dollar bill. So you've got 12 hustlers chasing
$60 dollars an hour or about $5 an hour each. And since the bank is
suffering from hustler's overload there is no place for any new
ploppies to sit down.

Just because you are a hustler doesn't mean you are bright. Since
these dumb hustlers are not contributing to the kitty, in other words,
they are sitting there for 20 minutes at a time without playing. then
playing like a bat out of hell for 15 seconds, they are looking like
some major 86 action. This is what got so many people pitched off the
bank.

Now, flip the situation over. What if there were 12 ploppies and 3
hustlers. Now you are getting a light every 3 minutes. You may only
get in 6 or 7 hands a light, but at 120 hands an hour you got yourself
a $50 an hour gig. Throw in betting 1 coin between lights, 5 coins in
the light, and you are not sitting there scratching your butt looking
like 86 material.

The correct way to handle it is to walk up and down the bank checking
out the players to see if the situation is right before taking a seat.
If it isn't find something else to do.

BTW, Flush Attack is extinct. Good luck.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Money Works <worksforthemoney@...> wrote:

Hey mickey:) I am going to be Reno for the first time and staying at Harrah's. Free trip:) Since you know Reno, could you give me some advice? Where to eat, shows and the best casinos close to Harrah's? My sister actually got married in Reno 50 years ago. Thanks for any advice:)

>
> Hi mickey:) What does hustlers trying to pick off three tourists
mean?? I am a tourist in Laughlin. Thanks:)
>
>
  It will be six years next month since I've been back to Laughlin.
Writing about it has made me a little homesick. I got heavily involved
in the Reno VP scene shortly after leaving Laughlin and the earning
power was such that it kept thoughts of RFB 365 in Laughlin from
creeping up on me. I payed my own rent in Reno---but I ate for free.
And, Yes, Paladin, the quality of the meals in Reno are much better
than Laughlin.

You would have to be an old Flush Attacker, I guess, to understand the
rediculousness of the situation I saw that night at the Riverside. The
smoking flush attacks sat at the base of the escalator up to the Bingo
Hall. It was an 18 machine linked-bank of flush attacks.

Flush Attack is an 8/5 Double Bonus game with every 4th flush paying
125 coins. When the machne goes into flush attack mode, at the top of
the screen, it will say "Flush Attack" next flush pays 125 coins."
This brings the theoretical up to 101.8% with expert strategy. But
ploppies playing this game probably couldn't do better than maybe 98%.
They just don't understand the value of the flush cards. They play the
game like it is regular jacks or better.

When they are linked together it becomes a collective effort to put the
machies into flush attack mode. It takes 15 points worth of flush.
Someone betting one coin, making a flush puts 1 point in. Someone
bettig 5 coins, making a flush puts 5 points in. At 15 points the
flush attack mode triggers on all the machines and the next person to
make a flush gets payed 25 for 1 (125 coins if you are betting 5
coins).

The game drew controversy everywhere. Hustlers would sit on the banks
playing only when the machines were in flush attack mode. It's the OPM
principle. The ploppies were paying the cost to trigger flush attack
mode and once the light came on they are competing against someone who
is cranking 15 hands a minute using flush125 strategy that produces a
flush every 42 games. Multiply that by the number of hustlers on the
bank and the ploppie doesn't stand a chance. At best, they might be at
94%.

There were probably 100 times more people thrown off that Riverside
flush attack bank than any other situation I've ever seen in Video
Poker. By 2002 the machines had been there for 8 years. Everyone knew
the score, change people, slot techs, security, casino hosts, Pat
Laughlin, Don Laughlin, everybody. You had to be sharp to keep that
bank.

So when I see 12 hustlers trying to pick off 3 tourists, this is what I
see. The ploppies might be cranking out 15 hands a minute
collectively. They are not using flush125, or even flush50, they are
using flush25. So they might trigger the light every 20 minutes. Each
light is worth a twenty dollar bill. So you've got 12 hustlers chasing
$60 dollars an hour or about $5 an hour each. And since the bank is
suffering from hustler's overload there is no place for any new
ploppies to sit down.

Just because you are a hustler doesn't mean you are bright. Since
these dumb hustlers are not contributing to the kitty, in other words,
they are sitting there for 20 minutes at a time without playing. then
playing like a bat out of hell for 15 seconds, they are looking like
some major 86 action. This is what got so many people pitched off the
bank.

Now, flip the situation over. What if there were 12 ploppies and 3
hustlers. Now you are getting a light every 3 minutes. You may only
get in 6 or 7 hands a light, but at 120 hands an hour you got yourself
a $50 an hour gig. Throw in betting 1 coin between lights, 5 coins in
the light, and you are not sitting there scratching your butt looking
like 86 material.

The correct way to handle it is to walk up and down the bank checking
out the players to see if the situation is right before taking a seat.
If it isn't find something else to do.

BTW, Flush Attack is extinct. Good luck.

···

mickeycrimm <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Money Works <worksforthemoney@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mickeycrimm wrote:

The correct way to handle it is to walk up and down the bank checking
out the players to see if the situation is right before taking a
seat. If it isn't find something else to do.

Mickey,

In raising the ghost of Flush Attack, you surface a question that's
been stewing in the back of my mind.

In an earlier discussion last year you alluded to the fact that you
played a constant strategy throughout the game cycle (based upon the
average flush payout, non-bonus/bonus).

In sizing up your fellow knights-errant on the bank, did you really
deem them to have assiduously boned up on Dan Paymar sufficiently to
stick to such a strategy themselves? I'll grant you we're talking a
pretty well-informed bunch, but I can't help to think they'd still
aggressively chase the flush during attack mode (warranting abandoning
a "play alone" strategy to charge with the herd).

- H.

Isn't the Flush Attack article by Doug Reul? If so, he, or at least
someone under his name, occasionally contributes to this group.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

In raising the ghost of Flush Attack, you surface a question that's
been stewing in the back of my mind.

In an earlier discussion last year you alluded to the fact that you
played a constant strategy throughout the game cycle (based upon the
average flush payout, non-bonus/bonus).

In sizing up your fellow knights-errant on the bank, did you really
deem them to have assiduously boned up on Dan Paymar

Harry Porter wrote:

> In raising the ghost of Flush Attack, you surface a question that's
> been stewing in the back of my mind.
>
> In an earlier discussion last year you alluded to the fact that you
> played a constant strategy throughout the game cycle (based upon
> the average flush payout, non-bonus/bonus).
>
> In sizing up your fellow knights-errant on the bank, did you really
> deem them to have assiduously boned up on Dan Paymar

nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:

Isn't the Flush Attack article by Doug Reul? If so, he, or at least
someone under his name, occasionally contributes to this group.

The earlier Micky discussion I mention is found at:
Payback % - FA
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/message/76648

He mentions an article contained in Paymar's published collection of
VP Times articles. I intended at the time to check it out, but the
book is AWOL (my best guess is that it was set aside as bedtime
reading and got boxed up when we painted the room a year or so ago).

In a mental exercise I satisfied myself that a uniform play strategy,
based on average Fl payout, would be optimal -- but only if it was
reasonable to assume that the other aggressive players on the bank
were doing so as well (vs. an attack mode strategy based upon the full
flush pay).

(I found it interesting that this was a second example, in addition to
progressive play, where the play of other players on the bank impacts
optimal play ER and, at least this case, optimal play strategy.)

If there's another reference on the topic, I'd be interested (it's an
academic subject, at best, for me).

- Harry

The linked version is extinct ... probably.

Don't ask me for details, I ain't seen nutin ...

Flush Attack is a good game, if you happen to run into one, you should
probably investigate, but I would play dumb, there is a lot of heat
over this game ...

If you happen to run into one in Flush Attack mode, it's like a 35%
overlay:

800-50-160-80-50-8-25-4-3-1-1

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

BTW, Flush Attack is extinct. Good luck.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

> BTW, Flush Attack is extinct. Good luck.

The linked version is extinct ... probably.

Don't ask me for details, I ain't seen nutin ...

If it's the bank in Mahnoman, Minnesota I promised I wouldn't tell
anyone about it. So, sorry, I have to keep my mouth shut on this one.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:

Yeah, that's it, VP Times, edited by Dan Paymar, the particular
article was authored by Doug Reul: "Flush Attack, History,
Perspective, and Independent Game Strategy"

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

Harry Porter wrote:
> > In raising the ghost of Flush Attack, you surface a question that's
> > been stewing in the back of my mind.
> >
> > In an earlier discussion last year you alluded to the fact that you
> > played a constant strategy throughout the game cycle (based upon
> > the average flush payout, non-bonus/bonus).
> >
> > In sizing up your fellow knights-errant on the bank, did you really
> > deem them to have assiduously boned up on Dan Paymar

nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:
> Isn't the Flush Attack article by Doug Reul? If so, he, or at least
> someone under his name, occasionally contributes to this group.

The earlier Micky discussion I mention is found at:
Payback % - FA
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/message/76648

He mentions an article contained in Paymar's published collection of
VP Times articles. I intended at the time to check it out, but the
book is AWOL (my best guess is that it was set aside as bedtime
reading and got boxed up when we painted the room a year or so ago).

In a mental exercise I satisfied myself that a uniform play strategy,
based on average Fl payout, would be optimal -- but only if it was
reasonable to assume that the other aggressive players on the bank
were doing so as well (vs. an attack mode strategy based upon the full
flush pay).

(I found it interesting that this was a second example, in addition to
progressive play, where the play of other players on the bank impacts
optimal play ER and, at least this case, optimal play strategy.)

If there's another reference on the topic, I'd be interested (it's an
academic subject, at best, for me).

- Harry

Game theory gets really complicated when there are more than two
contestants.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

(I found it interesting that this was a second example, in addition to
progressive play, where the play of other players on the bank impacts
optimal play ER and, at least this case, optimal play strategy.)

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

Mickey,
In raising the ghost of Flush Attack, you surface a question that's
been stewing in the back of my mind.

In an earlier discussion last year you alluded to the fact that you
played a constant strategy throughout the game cycle (based upon the
average flush payout, non-bonus/bonus).

Stand alone flush attacks and linked flush attacks are two different
strategies, hence, two different discussions. So, I'll go with the
stand alones first. There are various payscales in flush attack so
this discussion is about the best paying game. Payscale: RF 800, SF
50, 4A 160, Small Quads 80, Generic Quads 50, FH 8, FL 5, ST 4, 3K,
3, 2P 1, HP 1, Every fourth flush pays 25 for 1.

Here is what would happen if you used two different straties,
Standard 8/5 double bonus for the first three flushes, then switching
to a strategy predicated on the flush being worth 25 for 1.

Per the averages, you will play 275.1 games to make three flushes at
standard 8/5 double bonus with a theoretical of 94.19%. You will
then play 42 games to make a flush using the flush125 strategy with a
theoretical of 134.9%.

This averages to an overall payback of 99.58%. You will collect the
bonus flush every 317.1 games.

But what would happen if you played a strategy based on the flush
being worth 10 for 1. Because that is exactly what you have. The
first three flushes pay 5 for 1, and the bonus flush pays 25 for 1.
That averages to a flush value of 10. Using the above listed
payscale, change the flush value to 10 and run it on a program and it
will come up at 101.8%. This strategy is known as Flush50 because
it's based on an average pay of 50 coins on the flush when you are
betting 5 coins.

What is going on is you are taking a bigger drop by holding all those
flush cards over other hands but you collect the bonus flush every
220 games.

Harry, I'll get to your second question in a later post.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

Yeah, that's it, VP Times, edited by Dan Paymar, the particular
article was authored by Doug Reul: "Flush Attack, History,
Perspective, and Independent Game Strategy"

That particular book is called "The Best of Video Poker Times." He
later came out with "The Best of Video Poker Times II." Then he
combined the two and came out with "All the Best of Video Poker
Times." Whether it is still in print I don't know.

Harry wrote:

> The earlier Micky discussion I mention is found at:
> Payback % - FA
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/message/76648
>
>

The particular version of flush attack I discussed with GraytleeGray
in this post is the one found in the Pioneer/Laughlin. It's a rare
payscale where where the first three flushes pay 6 for 1, but the
bonus flush pays only 20 for 1. It comes in at 100.9%. The average
flush value is 9.5. Gray came up with a nice trick of running it on
Winpoker. Since you can't punch in 9.5 he doubled the whole payscale
then halved the result.

If the bank in the River Palms/Laughlin is still there these machines
have the same payscale as the best paying version but the bonus flush
pays only 20 for 1. It comes in at 99.6%.

If the linked bank at Ramada/Tropicana Express is still there they are
the best paying variety coming in at 101.8%. There was only four
machines and teamsters used to lock them up and play straight through
using flush50. If the team was short a couple of members for the day
they would tape up the bill acceptors on two of the machines, making
them appear out of order, so they wouldn't get dive bombed by hustlers
when they triggered flush attack mode. You know how hustlers are.

If it's the lone clunking dollar flush attack at Ascuagua's Nugget the
payscale shows that it is the best paying version, but it takes 4
flushes to turn the light on. Hence, it comes in at 100%.

If the lone flush attack is still in the Carson Valley Inn in Minden,
Nevada, it's the same as the best paying version but the full house
pays only 7 for 1. It comes in at 100.8%.

Another version was the same as the best paying but the full house
payed only 6 for 1. It came in at 99.7%.

I think I have now covered all the different versions of flush
attack.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:
> > BTW, Flush Attack is extinct. Good luck.
>
> The linked version is extinct ... probably.
>
> Don't ask me for details, I ain't seen nutin ...
>
>