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Jeffrey Compton SS Stepping Up Column - MAR 2008

nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:

Game theory gets really complicated when there are more than two
contestants.

No doubt.

There's a modestly interesting divergence from the typical examples
posed in game theory study (e.g. "The Prisoner's Dilemma") and the
limited examples found in video poker.

In the Prisoner's Dilemma, when one player deviates from the strategy
that's optimal for both participants, that player enhances his own
outcome at the expense of the other (assuming no change in behavior in
anticipation by the other player). The other player has similar
incentive and the game is structured such that the outcome of a change
in behavior by both is both are made worse off. The consequence is
that in absence of a mediator, both players tend to adopt the path
that impairs all involved.

With vp, a deviation by one player results from imperfect
understanding of the game and diminishes the EV of all players
concerned. An impacted player has the opportunity to improve their EV
if they adjust strategy appropriately, provided they accurately assess
the strategy change of the first player in question.

- Harry

If the bank in the River Palms/Laughlin is still there these

machines

have the same payscale as the best paying version but the bonus

flush

pays only 20 for 1. It comes in at 99.6%.

If the linked bank at Ramada/Tropicana Express is still there they

are

the best paying variety coming in at 101.8%. There was only four
machines and teamsters used to lock them up and play straight

through

using flush50. If the team was short a couple of members for the

day

they would tape up the bill acceptors on two of the machines,

making

them appear out of order, so they wouldn't get dive bombed by

hustlers

when they triggered flush attack mode. You know how hustlers

are.

If it's the lone clunking dollar flush attack at Ascuagua's Nugget

the

payscale shows that it is the best paying version, but it takes 4
flushes to turn the light on. Hence, it comes in at 100%.

If the lone flush attack is still in the Carson Valley Inn in

Minden,

Nevada, it's the same as the best paying version but the full house
pays only 7 for 1. It comes in at 100.8%.

Another version was the same as the best paying but the full house
payed only 6 for 1. It came in at 99.7%.

I think I have now covered all the different versions of flush
attack.

I forgot to mention, the bank at Ramada/Tropicana Express is an 8
coin job, not 5 coin.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

mickeycrimm wrote:

Stand alone flush attacks and linked flush attacks are two different
strategies, hence, two different discussions. So, I'll go with the
stand alones first ...

The discussion last year caught my eye. I had had a discussion with
an AC player a few years ago re strategy on a stand alone game. My
gut feeling was that you would play by an average Fl payout -- they
argued that you'd go strictly by the current payout. (Note, it's been
ages -- before my play -- since an attractive game existed in AC.)

Unable to find locate Paymar's book in my collection, I worked out a
rationale for an average flush approach (more specifically, why a
strategy based on actual payout couldn't be optimal). FWIW:

···

------

In standard mode, a strategy using the current payout value failed to
place value on accelerating the bonus round. Clearly that was
fallacious. Once you concede that some boost to the flush is
appropriate in determining strategy, gut sense suggests that an
offsetting weakening of the bonus value during attack mode is
warranted in finding optimal strategy -- as a necessary balance to
preserve overall EV.

However, on the surface, that seems self-defeating. When in attack
mode, that necessarily weakens the EV of each play -- it seems that
you want to aggressively pursue the Fl as the actual numbers suggest
is appropriate. However, offsetting the diminished EV of each play is
the fact that in pursuing the Fl less aggressively, you extend the
length of the attack cycle. While the overall attack cycle will be
worth less, it displaces play that otherwise would shift to the very
negative non-bonus cycle. That displacement more than compensates for
the reduced EV of the attack cycle.

A Q&D of the actual numbers bore this out, of course.

------

My question to you specifically focused on your approach to a linked
bank -- for as noted, unless you deem that the competition has as fine
an understanding of the strategy as you do, adopting a strategy keyed
to the actual attack cycle of the full bank (vs that of optimal
standalone play) is called for.

- Harry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

The discussion last year caught my eye. I had had a discussion with
an AC player a few years ago re strategy on a stand alone game. My
gut feeling was that you would play by an average Fl payout -- they
argued that you'd go strictly by the current payout.

Your gut feeling was correct. But I haven't discussed the absolute
best strategy for stand alones yet. It's called the Sweep:

How many flushes would you have to make to collect 10 bonus flushes?
Since you have to make 3 to turn the light on and 1 to turn it off
you would have to make 40 total flushes to collect 10 bonus flushes.

But what if you walked into a casino and found a bank of 10 flush
attack machines with no one playing them. We'll use the 7/5 flush
atacks that come in at 100.8%, using the flush 50 strategy, as an
example.

So you sit down on the end machine, play it until you collect the
bonus flush. Then cashout, move to the next machine and play it
until you collect the bonus flush. Then cashout, move to the next
machine and play it until you collect the bonus flush. You sweep out
all 10 machines like this counting all the flushes you made.

And when you get through you made only 30 flushes total. Oh, it
might be 27, or 34, but we'll use 30 as an example. What you have
done is picked up all the 5 for 1 flushes that the previous players
made before quitting.

So where would you be percentagewise. You made 20 regular flushes
and ten bonus flushes. 20 X 5 = 100; 10 X 25 = 250; 100 plus 250 =
350. 350 divided by 30 = a flush value of 11.66. A gain in value of
1.66. 1.66 divided by 55 (how often you make a flush) is 3%. So
instead of your money being at 100.8% it's at 103.8%.

Then you come back a few hours later and do the same thing. Who
wants to play straight through on one machine when you can do it like
this and get a much bigger theoretical.

There is added value from what Flush Attackers jokingly call the
Motel 6. "I'm Tom Bodette, and we'll leave the light on for you."
Occasionally, some person will put the machine in flush attack mode,
run out of credits and walk off. Every one you find is worth a
twenty dollar bill. Finding 10 or 15 a week greatly adds to the
bottom line.

In places like Tahoe, Minden and Elko I made $5000 to $6000 a month
sweeping flush attacks. It was a bread and butter play.

My question to you specifically focused on your approach to a linked
bank -- for as noted, unless you deem that the competition has as

fine

an understanding of the strategy as you do, adopting a strategy

keyed

to the actual attack cycle of the full bank (vs that of optimal
standalone play) is called for.

- Harry

On the linked banks I used two strategies. First, when the light is
not on, the best strategy is to not play. But that created a problem
in the Laughlin houses because you could get pitched out for using
that strategy. So I played 1 coin to make myself look busy. I used
8/5 double bonus strategy. If I used any kind of flush strategy I
would just be contributing to the coffers of the other hustlers.
Because they are doing everything they can not to contribute to
turning the light on. I wanted the lowest loss rate I could get
between lights.

When the light came on I went to the 5-coin bet and played the
strategy based on 125 coins for the flush. It produces a flush every
42 games and your money is at 135%. I also played as fast as
possible.

The strategies the other hustlers used in mode was not that big a
concern to me. Most of the players had the key holds down--like
holding a flush 3 over a low pair, etc.

There were some who insisted on using flush 50 strategy which
produces a flush every 55 games with a return of 129%. But there was
a problem with this strategy, beside the lower payback, to me. It
stretched out how long you spent on the bank to get a win. Maybe you
don't want to do that in a house where what you are doing could get
you pitched out.

The ploppie tourist types might be able to produce a flush every 80
or 90 games. Maybe some were smarter than that.

Then you had the stone cold kamikaze hustlers who would hold a 3
flush over two low pair, or over a high pair.

There were all types. But my thing was hands per hour. How many
hands per hour am I getting in when the game is in flush attack
mode. 100 games per hour has a theoretical of $44 per hour. 150
games per hour has a theoretical of $66 per hour, etc. As long as I
am getting in a decent amount of hands per hour in the mode I don't
care what the other players are doing.

mickeycrimm wrote:

Your gut feeling was correct. But I haven't discussed the absolute
best strategy for stand alones yet. It's called the Sweep:

Great discussion, Mickey ... thanks :slight_smile:

- H.

Hey mickey:) I am going to be Reno for the first time and staying at

Harrah's. Free trip:) Since you know Reno, could you give me some
advice? Where to eat, shows and the best casinos close to Harrah's?

Information I provide here is dated. I haven't been back to Reno since
the Fall of 2006. I had a good run there for a few years but the plays
eventually dried up.

I would say the best casinos for vacationers that are located downtown
are the El Dorado and the Silver Legacy. And I give the El Dorado the
nod over Silver Legacy. They are just up the street from Harrah's.

I give the Eldorado the nod because of their VP inventory and comps.
Besides 9/6 Jacks, they have 10/7 and NSUD. They have dollar 9/6 Jacks
progressives in their bartops. They have several bars so you have to
check them all because they are on different meters. They don't get as
much action as they used to because the machines are multi-game/multi-
denom now. People have a wide selection of games to play.

The El Dorado comp meter runs .5%. That's why I give it the nod over
Silver Legacy. They have kiosks where you can check your comp
balance. The card is user friendly. Just go eat and hand them your
card. I also liked the fact that I could stop at the El Dorado Coffee
Company in the mornings and pick up my morning cup of joe using the
card to pay for it.

As for eating, I am not an expert on fine dining. I'm rather frugal,
to steal someone else's line, with comp. If the choice is blowing off
a hundred dollars worth of comp at Roxy's for one meal, or eating 7 or
8 times at the buffet for the same amount of domp dollars, you'll find
me at the buffet.

My eating establishments at El Dorado were Brew Brothers, Tivoli
Gardens (coffee shop), and the buffet. I also ate breakfast at the
food court quite a bit---for some reason they only charged me one comp
dollar for a full breakfast. I never asked them why? I didn't want to
wake anybody up.

As for the Legacy, I ate there too. Usually the buffet, Cafe Al
Fresca, or Fairchild's Oyster Bar. Their VP inventory was much better
back then than it is now. But they still have some good games.

My sister actually got married in Reno 50 years ago.

What a coincidence! My mother divorced my father 50 years ago in Reno.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Money Works <worksforthemoney@...> wrote:

Thanks for the tips on Reno:) LOL on the divorce answer:) I lost my sister to breast cancer in August so memories count:)

>
> Hey mickey:) I am going to be Reno for the first time and staying at
Harrah's. Free trip:) Since you know Reno, could you give me some
advice? Where to eat, shows and the best casinos close to Harrah's?
>
>
>
Information I provide here is dated. I haven't been back to Reno since
the Fall of 2006. I had a good run there for a few years but the plays
eventually dried up.

I would say the best casinos for vacationers that are located downtown
are the El Dorado and the Silver Legacy. And I give the El Dorado the
nod over Silver Legacy. They are just up the street from Harrah's.

I give the Eldorado the nod because of their VP inventory and comps.
Besides 9/6 Jacks, they have 10/7 and NSUD. They have dollar 9/6 Jacks
progressives in their bartops. They have several bars so you have to
check them all because they are on different meters. They don't get as
much action as they used to because the machines are multi-game/multi-
denom now. People have a wide selection of games to play.

The El Dorado comp meter runs .5%. That's why I give it the nod over
Silver Legacy. They have kiosks where you can check your comp
balance. The card is user friendly. Just go eat and hand them your
card. I also liked the fact that I could stop at the El Dorado Coffee
Company in the mornings and pick up my morning cup of joe using the
card to pay for it.

As for eating, I am not an expert on fine dining. I'm rather frugal,
to steal someone else's line, with comp. If the choice is blowing off
a hundred dollars worth of comp at Roxy's for one meal, or eating 7 or
8 times at the buffet for the same amount of domp dollars, you'll find
me at the buffet.

My eating establishments at El Dorado were Brew Brothers, Tivoli
Gardens (coffee shop), and the buffet. I also ate breakfast at the
food court quite a bit---for some reason they only charged me one comp
dollar for a full breakfast. I never asked them why? I didn't want to
wake anybody up.

As for the Legacy, I ate there too. Usually the buffet, Cafe Al
Fresca, or Fairchild's Oyster Bar. Their VP inventory was much better
back then than it is now. But they still have some good games.

>
>
>My sister actually got married in Reno 50 years ago.
>
>
What a coincidence! My mother divorced my father 50 years ago in Reno.

···

mickeycrimm <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Money Works <worksforthemoney@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There is a very good place for breakfast called Peg's Glorified Ham and Eggs, 420 S.
Sierra St.

A long time hamburger joint across from Harrahs was recommended to me (name
excapes me) but never tried.

My number one suggestion that is worthy of a detour is Adeles in Carson City, a
few blocks north of state capitol building on main highway.

There also used to be many good Basque places in Reno but my favorite one is
still in Bakersfield.

  As for eating, I am not an expert on fine dining. I'm rather frugal,

to steal someone else's line, with comp. If the choice is blowing off
a hundred dollars worth of comp at Roxy's for one meal, or eating 7 or
8 times at the buffet for the same amount of domp dollars, you'll find
me at the buffet.

My eating establishments at El Dorado were Brew Brothers, Tivoli
Gardens (coffee shop), and the buffet. I also ate breakfast at the
food court quite a bit---for some reason they only charged me one comp
dollar for a full breakfast. I never asked them why? I didn't want to
wake anybody up.

As for the Legacy, I ate there too. Usually the buffet, Cafe Al
Fresca, or Fairchild's Oyster Bar. Their VP inventory was much better
back then than it is now. But they still have some good games.

>
>
>My sister actually got married in Reno 50 years ago.
>
>
What a coincidence! My mother divorced my father 50 years ago in Reno.

---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access,

No Cost.

···

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the tips George:)

George Lee <glee4ever@yahoo.com> wrote: There is a very good place for breakfast called Peg's Glorified Ham and Eggs, 420 S.
Sierra St.

A long time hamburger joint across from Harrahs was recommended to me (name
excapes me) but never tried.

My number one suggestion that is worthy of a detour is Adeles in Carson City, a
few blocks north of state capitol building on main highway.

There also used to be many good Basque places in Reno but my favorite one is
still in Bakersfield.

As for eating, I am not an expert on fine dining. I'm rather frugal,
> to steal someone else's line, with comp. If the choice is blowing off
> a hundred dollars worth of comp at Roxy's for one meal, or eating 7 or
> 8 times at the buffet for the same amount of domp dollars, you'll find
> me at the buffet.
>
> My eating establishments at El Dorado were Brew Brothers, Tivoli
> Gardens (coffee shop), and the buffet. I also ate breakfast at the
> food court quite a bit---for some reason they only charged me one comp
> dollar for a full breakfast. I never asked them why? I didn't want to
> wake anybody up.
>
> As for the Legacy, I ate there too. Usually the buffet, Cafe Al
> Fresca, or Fairchild's Oyster Bar. Their VP inventory was much better
> back then than it is now. But they still have some good games.
>
> >
> >
> >My sister actually got married in Reno 50 years ago.
> >
> >
> What a coincidence! My mother divorced my father 50 years ago in Reno.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access,
No Cost.

···

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A long time hamburger joint across from Harrahs was recommended to

me (name

excapes me) but never tried.

The burger is called the "Awful, Awful." A huge hamburger with a huge
pile of fries. The Awful, Awful would be a good name for the little
casino this greasy spoon is in. The place hasn't been remodeled since
maybe 1936.

The restaurant is in the back and is no bigger than a hotel room.
Breakfast, lunch, dinner, 24 hours a day. Go to the cash register and
order then grab a seat, if you can find one. There ain't many.

The name escapes me too. But if you go out the Virginia Street side of
Harrah's you will see it sitting across the street.

It's a greasy spoon's greasy spoon. But they do a hell of a
business.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Money Works <worksforthemoney@...> wrote:

The name of the place for the awful awful is the Reno Nugget- not to
be confused with the Nugget down the road east a few miles in Sparks-
not to be confused with the Nugget a few miles south in Carson City-
not to be confused with the Nugget a few miles west at North Lake
Tahoe- not to..... How many Nuggets are there?

The awful awful was voted the best burger in Reno last year by the
local newspaper-- beat out the McD double chesseburger.

The Reno Nugget used to be a nice place in the 1950's.

While we are speaking of Reno, the RGJ had an article today about the
proposed tax increase on casinos for schools. This could be huge, and
they claim some casinos in Northern Nevada would not survive. If this
thing passes, costs to casinos will go up, and so will the hold on vp
and gambling in general?

http://www.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?
AID=/20080407/NEWS19/804070342

The burger is called the "Awful, Awful." A huge hamburger with a

huge

pile of fries. The Awful, Awful would be a good name for the

little

casino this greasy spoon is in. The place hasn't been remodeled

since

maybe 1936.

The restaurant is in the back and is no bigger than a hotel room.
Breakfast, lunch, dinner, 24 hours a day. Go to the cash register

and

order then grab a seat, if you can find one. There ain't many.

The name escapes me too. But if you go out the Virginia Street

side of

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

Harrah's you will see it sitting across the street.

It's a greasy spoon's greasy spoon. But they do a hell of a
business.

That sounds good, but for my money( or lack of it ) and 2 hours of quarter play consisting of 10/7 DB or NSUD deuces, you can get a comp to the Virginian's( CalNeva) Copper Ledge or Upper Deck coffee shops. We're talking giant portions of quality diner type food , most under $8.

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com>

The burger is called the "Awful, Awful." A huge hamburger with a huge
pile of fries. The Awful, Awful would be a good name for the little
casino this greasy spoon is in. The place hasn't been remodeled since
maybe 1936.

The restaurant is in the back and is no bigger than a hotel room.
Breakfast, lunch, dinner, 24 hours a day. Go to the cash register and
order then grab a seat, if you can find one. There ain't many.

The name escapes me too. But if you go out the Virginia Street side of
Harrah's you will see it sitting across the street.

It's a greasy spoon's greasy spoon. But they do a hell of a
business.

That sounds good, but for my money( or lack of it ) and 2 hours of

quarter

play consisting of 10/7 DB or NSUD deuces, you can get a comp to the
Virginian's( CalNeva) Copper Ledge or Upper Deck coffee shops. We're
talking giant portions of quality diner type food , most under $8.

I like the Copper Ledge myself. My comp may have got X'ed out at Cal
Neva because I haven't been back in a year and a half. The Prime Rib
Dinner was $9. I've heard the nickel and dime spin poker with 10/7 is
still there.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tomflush" <tomflush@...> wrote:

Lots and LOTS of Nuggets:) LOL

hamstockman <AB6PQ@aol.com> wrote: The name of the place for the awful awful is the Reno Nugget- not to
be confused with the Nugget down the road east a few miles in Sparks-
not to be confused with the Nugget a few miles south in Carson City-
not to be confused with the Nugget a few miles west at North Lake
Tahoe- not to..... How many Nuggets are there?

The awful awful was voted the best burger in Reno last year by the
local newspaper-- beat out the McD double chesseburger.

The Reno Nugget used to be a nice place in the 1950's.

While we are speaking of Reno, the RGJ had an article today about the
proposed tax increase on casinos for schools. This could be huge, and
they claim some casinos in Northern Nevada would not survive. If this
thing passes, costs to casinos will go up, and so will the hold on vp
and gambling in general?

http://www.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?
AID=/20080407/NEWS19/804070342

> The burger is called the "Awful, Awful." A huge hamburger with a
huge
> pile of fries. The Awful, Awful would be a good name for the
little
> casino this greasy spoon is in. The place hasn't been remodeled
since
> maybe 1936.
>
> The restaurant is in the back and is no bigger than a hotel room.
> Breakfast, lunch, dinner, 24 hours a day. Go to the cash register
and
> order then grab a seat, if you can find one. There ain't many.
>
> The name escapes me too. But if you go out the Virginia Street
side of

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:
> Harrah's you will see it sitting across the street.
>
> It's a greasy spoon's greasy spoon. But they do a hell of a
> business.
>

---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Is this proposal statewide or just in Reno? If it is statewide it
probably won't fly. There would be some heavy lobbying going on by the
casino industry.

Washoe County took a huge hit when California Indian Gaming came
online. The win dropped from 600K to 480K. That's a depression. And
Reno has a very high bed tax for Nevada, like 12.5%. If it flies it
will definitely knock some Washoe casinos out.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hamstockman" <AB6PQ@...> wrote:

.

While we are speaking of Reno, the RGJ had an article today about the
proposed tax increase on casinos for schools. This could be huge, and
they claim some casinos in Northern Nevada would not survive. If this
thing passes, costs to casinos will go up, and so will the hold on vp
and gambling in general?