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Interrogated At Edgewater: Did you cheat?

These days, you need to be careful. You could be arrested as a
terrorist, held indefinitely and subjected to torture. It's only a
matter of time before they bring back burning at the stake.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@y...> wrote:

What possible answer could this supervisor expect to the
question, "Did you cheat"? Even discounting the very obvious
conclusion that it would be very difficult if not impossible to
cheat in this manner, did he actually think that Brian would
say, "Yes! I cheated. Confiscate my six $500 tickets and call the
Metro Police!"

Had I been in Brian's place I would have been extremely insulted by
the insinuation of this casino employee that I was cheating! I
would have immediately demanded to speak with the highest ranking
manager currently in the casino, and would have insisted on an
apology.

Very cute!
   
  When I have wins like this, I make several trips to the cage and cash my tickets individually. I've done this because I never wanted anyone in the cage to make a mistake and insist on issuing a W2G.
   
  But seriously, as advantage players, we need to be a little careful. There was an interesting article about a year ago that spoke about the World Series of Blackjack, the difference between advantage players and cheaters, and the $400k jury award granted to James Grosjean (for the rough and improper treatment he received at the Imperial Palace). http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/gaming/2004/nov/22/517866261.html).
   
  My favorite quote from this article is "People aren't trained enough in these casinos to understand the difference between cheating and advantage play"
   
  That supervisor could have very easily believed that Brian was cheating and called in the goons. After all, I'm sure that EVERYONE on the Edgewater's staff knows that unless you hit a big jackpot, if you've been playing all day, you MUST be losing... unless of course, you're cheating. <g>
   
  Seriously, how is it possible that the cage supervisor doesn't know that their TITO machines kicks out tickets for $500 hands?
   
  Perhaps Sue Ihnen taught the "People Skills" class that that supervisor took.
   
  Lainie

  These days, you need to be careful. You could be arrested as a
terrorist, held indefinitely and subjected to torture. It's only a
matter of time before they bring back burning at the stake.

···

nightoftheiguana2000 <nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@y...> wrote:

What possible answer could this supervisor expect to the
question, "Did you cheat"? Even discounting the very obvious
conclusion that it would be very difficult if not impossible to
cheat in this manner, did he actually think that Brian would
say, "Yes! I cheated. Confiscate my six $500 tickets and call the
Metro Police!"

Had I been in Brian's place I would have been extremely insulted by
the insinuation of this casino employee that I was cheating! I
would have immediately demanded to speak with the highest ranking
manager currently in the casino, and would have insisted on an
apology.

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm confused. Doesn't this talk about depositing funds with the casinos (as opposed to removing funds from the casinos)? I can see that the government would want to regulate record-keeping depending on how much money you can deposit up front - or withdraw from those accounts in one transaction (as anti money laundering measures), but what's the relationship between this and cashing your VP TITO vouchers?
   
  Thanks,
  Lainie

···

nightoftheiguana2000 <nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
  http://gaming.nv.gov/stats_regs/reg6a.pdf

For transactions involving more than $3,000 with respect to each
deposit of funds, including gaming front money deposits or safekeeping
deposits, account opened, or line of credit extended or established,
6A licensees shall, at the time the funds are deposited, the account
is opened, or credit is extended or established, secure and maintain
the same information as required in Regulations 6A.030(3)(d) through
(j) in the manner required in Regulation 6A.030(1). Where the deposit,
account, or credit is in the names of two or more patrons, the 6A
licensee shall secure such information for each patron having a
financial interest in the deposit, account, or line of credit. In the
event a 6A licensee has been unable to secure all the required
information, it shall not be deemed to be in violation of this section
if it has made a reasonable effort to secure such information,
maintains a list containing the names and permanent addresses of those
patrons from whom it has been unable to obtain the information, and
makes the names and addresses of those patrons available to the state
upon request.

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Great post Babe!
   
  The bottom line is that casinos are in the hospitality business. Players deserve to be treated as valued guests and treated with both dignity and respect.
   
  You would think that with all the competition that the physical casinos are getting from online casinos, that casino staff would go out of their way to be nice to players like Brian -- so that they could lure the players back (and try to recoup some of the winnings).
   
  We should not tolerate being ill-treated, under any circumstances. Nothing anyone can say will ever tell me that treating customers with disrespect is "appropriate."
   
  Lainie

···

jackessiebabe <jackessiebabe@yahoo.com> wrote:
  
Good Morning, Bob.

I have read and re-read your post a few times and must respectfully,
but strongly disagree with your premise that the cage supervisor's
behavior was "appropriate."

The fact that Brian was playing a full-pay machine (provided by the
casino) utilizing optimum strategy (probably provided by you) and
actually WINNING (provided by the VP Goddess swinging the curve in
his direction)is, IMO, no reason whatsover for him to be questioned
as though he was a common cheat (read thief)! I believe that this
was egregiously rude behavior on the part of the cage supervisor (I
prefer stupidvisor, in this instance).

Furthermore, if as Brian said, the machine "spit out" a $500 ticket
each time he had the good fortune to hit the deuces, the supervisor
should have been aware of the method in which the casino's TITO
machines automatically dispensed the tickets.

What possible answer could this supervisor expect to the
question, "Did you cheat"? Even discounting the very obvious
conclusion that it would be very difficult if not impossible to
cheat in this manner, did he actually think that Brian would
say, "Yes! I cheated. Confiscate my six $500 tickets and call the
Metro Police!"

Had I been in Brian's place I would have been extremely insulted by
the insinuation of this casino employee that I was cheating! I
would have immediately demanded to speak with the highest ranking
manager currently in the casino, and would have insisted on an
apology.

Certainly, I would not have bothered to "explain" (apologize for
winning!) that my partner had lost. I'm absolutely certain that no
one in the casino apologized to Brian when BOTH he and his wife lost.

You express the thought that Brian had "nothing to complain about"
because he had a nice winning trip, and was not delayed very long in
completing the transaction. I strongly disagree with that
statement. Do you think that he would have had a legitimate
complaint had he lost? It certainly is possible, as we all know, to
cash in $3,000 worth of tickets and still lose.

I think that he had a major issue with this casino employee
regarding the employee's total lack of respect for him, as a
customer. I believe that it would have been more appropriate for him
to have been "red-faced" from anger, rather than from embarrassment.

I do however agree with you that Brian's original post was not
addressed as well as it might have been. The thread immediately
changed course and focused instead on an EW host with whom a few
list members (including me) had varying experiences.

Regards,
-Babe-

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@c...> wrote:

I've reread Brian's original Tuesday-morning post on this a couple
of times (which concerned a cage supervisor), and I see that it
has generated a lot of posts about rude hosts.

As near as I can tell from the original post, the cage supervisor's
behavior was appropriate, in general terms, at least. He'd never
seen six $500 tickets all at once, and the fact that they were all
for the same amount made him suspicious --- which is appropriate for
someone responsible for over-seeing the giving out the company's
money.......................

                  <SNIP>

.......The bottom line appears to be that Brian got paid with a 30-
second-at-most delay. It was his best trip ever. What's to complain
about?

Bob Dancer

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babe said to me: I have read and re-read your post a few times and must
respectfully,
but strongly disagree with your premise that the cage supervisor's
behavior was "appropriate."

        Okay. Let's disagree civilly. But I definitely stick with my
position. Let me tell you a little more about it.

        Back in 1993 and 94, I was "asked" to leave casinos for being a
blackjack counter. In 2001, both the MGM Grand and Venetian told me I
could play there, but only with sufficiently reduced benefits that I
choose to voluntarily stay away. (See "Million Dollar Video Poker" for
details.) I know many other people who've been asked to leave casinos
because they are skilled. I KNOW I'm going to average more than $150K
every year from casinos, and I accept that parting with this kind of
money doesn't always come graciously to some casinos or casino
employees.

        While I don't like this, I accept that officially I am legally
the "guest" of casinos and that they may ask me to leave for any reason
they like --- so long as it isn't because I'm non-white, female,
disabled, or some other protected class. If casinos want to question me
about something, that's their right. If they touch me, threaten me, yell
at me, or otherwise cross the line, then we'd have had a different
situation. But in the situation at the Edgewater, we had none of that
kind of abuse.

        In addition to being a "guest" of the casino, one additional
factor that affects me and not most others is that I'm a well-known
gambling personality. In addition to being a winning player, a status
several others here also qualify for, I'm a "big fish in a small pond"
video-poker-wise. In effect, I am always "on stage" when I'm in the
casino. There will often be someone seeing Bob Dancer for the first
time, and if I do anything loud, negative, or otherwise
attention-worthy, they'll remember it --- and often talk about it
disparageingly to others. (I'm not always good at remembering that I'm
always on stage, but I try.) So the situation at Edgewater would have
truly been small change to me. Not the time at all to cop an attitude.
Something to note as I made my way to another casino. (Now Brian may not
be part of this "well known gambling personality" fraternity, but the
fact that I am affected my answer.)

        Please remember that this was an unusual situation. There have
only been a few times lifetime that I've collected six or more sets of
deuces on a single-line machine in the same day, (or four aces on a
Double Bonus machine) and I suspect I've played these games 500
different times in the past 12 years. Having 6 of these jackpots in one
day is unusual. (Come on, how many times have YOU had this good
fortune?) And 50 cents is a rather obscure denomination --- relatively
speaking. I doubt that this supervisor had EVER seen more than two of
these $500 jackpot tickets at the same time before. Six all at once?
Quite unusual. And many casino cage supervisors have only a very
superficial knowledge of the specific games on their floor. The
Edgewater has a couple of thousand machines, and several are multi-game
multi-denom. The fact that very few of them would be of interest to
members here, the cage supervisor has to deal with players who play ALL
machines.

        Some people are more prone to get emotional and demand they be
treated "appropriately" than I usually am (although I've had my moments
through the years). Part of that might be a difference in personality.
Part of this might be a difference in perspective due to our different
statuses within the casino. There are truly times when it's right to
yell and scream and demand to speak to the president. But this, IMO,
wasn't one of them.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<< When I have wins like this, I make several trips to the cage and cash my
tickets individually. I've done this because I never wanted anyone in the
cage to make a mistake and insist on issuing a W2G. >>

Structuring your cashouts to avoid having the CTR-C filed on you is actually
a federal crime. I know that's not why you're doing it, but be careful.
   
Cogno

<<I'm confused. Doesn't this talk about depositing funds with the casinos
(as opposed to removing funds from the casinos)? I can see that the
government would want to regulate record-keeping depending on how much money
you can deposit up front - or withdraw from those accounts in one
transaction (as anti money laundering measures), but what's the relationship
between this and cashing your VP TITO vouchers?>>

Any cash transactions with a total aggregate amount of over $10k in a day
cause a secret form to be filed called a CTR-C (Cash Transaction Report for
Casinos). To comply with this, they record every transaction of $3000 or
more. They are not permitted to tell you why they are doing this, even if
you ask.

Cogno

I have found that it is usually best not to cash in alot of tickets
at one time. Some casinos even have rules that are posted not
allowing more than 5 at one time. I try to break up how many I
cash at a time. I have had 4 - $400 tickets because of playing the
BPD $1 - and I cashed 2 in and then later cashed another in the
other one along with a $700 ticket and no one seemed to care. And
it was a real slow period that day.

I appreciate the feedback. And I suppose that any number of us

that

play regularily have had issues with a host at one time or

another.

But this is the first time that I've heard of a casino employee
suggest that a player might be cheating based upon the amount of
their winnings. Being an advantage player, it kind of made me
nervous - as if "they were on to me" or something. While I know

that

that wasn't the case, when I was "accused" I'm sure that my face
turned red - feeling a tad guilty I guess. But that feeling didn't
last too long. Like about 5 minutes or so. Brian
>
> The 50 cent machine kicked out a $500 TITO slip every time I hit
> deuces. By the end of a long day
> I had collected six of them for $3,000. I went to the cashier

cage

to
> cash them in, the clerk added them
> up, stapled them together and handed the vouchers to his
supervisor
> that happened to be standing there.
> Instead of glancing at me and signing off on the payment as I

have

> come to expect he first asked me the following
> questions:
> Super: These are all $500. How did you do this? Did you cheat?
> Me: No, how could I do that?
> Super: Well how did you do this? What are you playing?
> Me: Deuces
> Super: Deuces? What denomination?
> Me: 50 cents
> Super: Looks like you can make some pretty good money at this,
hugh?
> Me: Well, while I was winning my wife was losing.
> Super: (Looking at my wife) So you were losing?
> Yeah, yeah ha ha - we all chuckled (uncomfortably)
> He signed off on my three grand.
>
> I think it's important to note that his questions didn't exactly
have
> a friendly tone -
> although he was trying to appear more curious than

investigative.

But
> it was an effort and
> my wife and I found the exchange a bit tense. Also, he didn't

sign

> off on the amount
> until he finished the questions.
>
> As a side note we hit three royals on the 50 cent NSUD and

happily

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Lee" <gl_bryan@y...> wrote:

vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Lee" <gl_bryan@y...> wrote:
> walked away with a
> somewhat cumbersome large bundle of cash. Our best trip ever!
>

Well, I can tell you, from now on when I hit deuces on a TITO that
spits out the jackpot, I'll be cashing them in as I get them. But,
chances are it will be quite some time before I have a streak of
luck like that again.

Brian

I have found that it is usually best not to cash in alot of

tickets

at one time. Some casinos even have rules that are posted not
allowing more than 5 at one time. I try to break up how many I
cash at a time. I have had 4 - $400 tickets because of playing

the

BPD $1 - and I cashed 2 in and then later cashed another in the
other one along with a $700 ticket and no one seemed to care. And
it was a real slow period that day.

>
> I appreciate the feedback. And I suppose that any number of us
that
> play regularily have had issues with a host at one time or
another.
> But this is the first time that I've heard of a casino employee
> suggest that a player might be cheating based upon the amount of
> their winnings. Being an advantage player, it kind of made me
> nervous - as if "they were on to me" or something. While I know
that
> that wasn't the case, when I was "accused" I'm sure that my face
> turned red - feeling a tad guilty I guess. But that feeling

didn't

> last too long. Like about 5 minutes or so. Brian
> >
> > The 50 cent machine kicked out a $500 TITO slip every time I

hit

> > deuces. By the end of a long day
> > I had collected six of them for $3,000. I went to the cashier
cage
> to
> > cash them in, the clerk added them
> > up, stapled them together and handed the vouchers to his
> supervisor
> > that happened to be standing there.
> > Instead of glancing at me and signing off on the payment as I
have
> > come to expect he first asked me the following
> > questions:
> > Super: These are all $500. How did you do this? Did you cheat?
> > Me: No, how could I do that?
> > Super: Well how did you do this? What are you playing?
> > Me: Deuces
> > Super: Deuces? What denomination?
> > Me: 50 cents
> > Super: Looks like you can make some pretty good money at this,
> hugh?
> > Me: Well, while I was winning my wife was losing.
> > Super: (Looking at my wife) So you were losing?
> > Yeah, yeah ha ha - we all chuckled (uncomfortably)
> > He signed off on my three grand.
> >
> > I think it's important to note that his questions didn't

exactly

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "missdeuces" <missdeuces@y...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Lee" <gl_bryan@y...> wrote:
> vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Lee" <gl_bryan@y...> wrote:
> have
> > a friendly tone -
> > although he was trying to appear more curious than
investigative.
> But
> > it was an effort and
> > my wife and I found the exchange a bit tense. Also, he didn't
sign
> > off on the amount
> > until he finished the questions.
> >
> > As a side note we hit three royals on the 50 cent NSUD and
happily
> > walked away with a
> > somewhat cumbersome large bundle of cash. Our best trip ever!
> >
>

Well, I can tell you, from now on when I hit deuces on a TITO that
spits out the jackpot, I'll be cashing them in as I get them. But,
chances are it will be quite some time before I have a streak of
luck like that again.

Brian

I have found that it is usually best not to cash in alot of

tickets

at one time. Some casinos even have rules that are posted not
allowing more than 5 at one time. I try to break up how many I
cash at a time. I have had 4 - $400 tickets because of playing

the

BPD $1 - and I cashed 2 in and then later cashed another in the
other one along with a $700 ticket and no one seemed to care. And
it was a real slow period that day.

>
> I appreciate the feedback. And I suppose that any number of us
that
> play regularily have had issues with a host at one time or
another.
> But this is the first time that I've heard of a casino employee
> suggest that a player might be cheating based upon the amount of
> their winnings. Being an advantage player, it kind of made me
> nervous - as if "they were on to me" or something. While I know
that
> that wasn't the case, when I was "accused" I'm sure that my face
> turned red - feeling a tad guilty I guess. But that feeling

didn't

> last too long. Like about 5 minutes or so. Brian
> >
> > The 50 cent machine kicked out a $500 TITO slip every time I

hit

> > deuces. By the end of a long day
> > I had collected six of them for $3,000. I went to the cashier
cage
> to
> > cash them in, the clerk added them
> > up, stapled them together and handed the vouchers to his
> supervisor
> > that happened to be standing there.
> > Instead of glancing at me and signing off on the payment as I
have
> > come to expect he first asked me the following
> > questions:
> > Super: These are all $500. How did you do this? Did you cheat?
> > Me: No, how could I do that?
> > Super: Well how did you do this? What are you playing?
> > Me: Deuces
> > Super: Deuces? What denomination?
> > Me: 50 cents
> > Super: Looks like you can make some pretty good money at this,
> hugh?
> > Me: Well, while I was winning my wife was losing.
> > Super: (Looking at my wife) So you were losing?
> > Yeah, yeah ha ha - we all chuckled (uncomfortably)
> > He signed off on my three grand.
> >
> > I think it's important to note that his questions didn't

exactly

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "missdeuces" <missdeuces@y...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Lee" <gl_bryan@y...> wrote:
> vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Lee" <gl_bryan@y...> wrote:
> have
> > a friendly tone -
> > although he was trying to appear more curious than
investigative.
> But
> > it was an effort and
> > my wife and I found the exchange a bit tense. Also, he didn't
sign
> > off on the amount
> > until he finished the questions.
> >
> > As a side note we hit three royals on the 50 cent NSUD and
happily
> > walked away with a
> > somewhat cumbersome large bundle of cash. Our best trip ever!
> >
>

Thanks. I knew about a $10k limit for financial institutions, but I never knew about it for casinos. It makes sense though.

Cogno Scienti <cognoscienti@gmail.com> wrote: <<I'm confused. Doesn't this talk about depositing funds with the casinos
(as opposed to removing funds from the casinos)? I can see that the
government would want to regulate record-keeping depending on how much money
you can deposit up front - or withdraw from those accounts in one
transaction (as anti money laundering measures), but what's the relationship
between this and cashing your VP TITO vouchers?>>

Any cash transactions with a total aggregate amount of over $10k in a day
cause a secret form to be filed called a CTR-C (Cash Transaction Report for
Casinos). To comply with this, they record every transaction of $3000 or
more. They are not permitted to tell you why they are doing this, even if
you ask.

Cogno

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks. Unfortunately, as a quarter player (who just doesn't seem to get all that lucky), I don't think I'll ever have to worry about the CTR-C. Lainie

Cogno Scienti <cognoscienti@gmail.com> wrote: << When I have wins like this, I make several trips to the cage and cash my
tickets individually. I've done this because I never wanted anyone in the
cage to make a mistake and insist on issuing a W2G. >>

Structuring your cashouts to avoid having the CTR-C filed on you is actually
a federal crime. I know that's not why you're doing it, but be careful.
   
Cogno

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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Cogno said: To comply with this, they record every transaction of $3000
or more. They are not permitted to tell you why they are doing this, even
if you ask.

True. What's more, if you DO ask, they are required to report it to the
IRS that you DID ask. I suspect few if any casinos obey this "identify
who wants to know" regulation, but technically they're required to do
so.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This thread spured my interest in these secret forms. I found a
government page that explains more than we'll ever need to know
about it - but just in case just in case somebody does:
http://www.fincen.gov/reg_bsaforms.html

Brian
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Lainie Wolf <lainiewolf702@y...>
wrote:

Thanks. I knew about a $10k limit for financial institutions, but

I never knew about it for casinos. It makes sense though.

Cogno Scienti <cognoscienti@g...> wrote: <<I'm confused. Doesn't

this talk about depositing funds with the casinos

(as opposed to removing funds from the casinos)? I can see that

the

government would want to regulate record-keeping depending on how

much money

you can deposit up front - or withdraw from those accounts in one
transaction (as anti money laundering measures), but what's the

relationship

between this and cashing your VP TITO vouchers?>>

Any cash transactions with a total aggregate amount of over $10k

in a day

cause a secret form to be filed called a CTR-C (Cash Transaction

Report for

Casinos). To comply with this, they record every transaction of

$3000 or

more. They are not permitted to tell you why they are doing this,

even if

you ask.

Cogno

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

  SPONSORED LINKS
        Online gambling Outdoor recreation Recreation

software Gambling

    
---------------------------------
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Service.

···

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Is this better:

http://www.treasury.gov/press/releases/docs/casinosarfinalrule.pdf

In other words, it is expected that casinos will follow a risk-based
approach in monitoring for suspicious transactions, and will report
all detected suspicious transactions that involve $5,000 or
more in funds or other assets. A well-implemented anti-money
laundering compliance program should reinforce a casino's efforts in
detecting suspicious activity. In addition, casinos are encouraged to
report on a voluntary basis detected suspicious transactions that
fall below the $5,000 reporting threshold, such as the submission by a
customer of an identification document that the casino suspects is
false or altered, in the course of a transaction that triggers an
identification requirement under the Bank Secrecy Act or other law.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Lainie Wolf <lainiewolf702@y...> wrote:

I'm confused.

Thanks. Between this and the link that Brian sent yesterday, I'm beginning to understand. For awhile, I was thinking that the casinos had to report on players playing more than $5k in action.
   
  Based on my reading this document, I'm now thinking that they really are talking about suspicous activity. Here's what I think they're saying -- if someone knows otherwise, I'd like to be corrected.
   
  If someone who plays $25 triple play VP and brings $10,000 to the casino, that person probably would have paperwork filed on them UNTIL they became a regular player at that casino (at that level) -- and showed that their level of play is "normal."
   
  Conversely, I wonder... if someone goes from being a single line nickel player to occasionally playing $5 fifty play -- would that trigger reporting? (It sounds like it might....)
   
  This is interesting and thought-provoking. On a related note, does anyone think that money launderers use slot club cards?
   
  Lainie
  

I'm confused.

Is this better:

http://www.treasury.gov/press/releases/docs/casinosarfinalrule.pdf

In other words, it is expected that casinos will follow a risk-based
approach in monitoring for suspicious transactions, and will report
all detected suspicious transactions that involve $5,000 or
more in funds or other assets. A well-implemented anti-money
laundering compliance program should reinforce a casino's efforts in
detecting suspicious activity. In addition, casinos are encouraged to
report on a voluntary basis detected suspicious transactions that
fall below the $5,000 reporting threshold, such as the submission by a
customer of an identification document that the casino suspects is
false or altered, in the course of a transaction that triggers an
identification requirement under the Bank Secrecy Act or other law.

···

nightoftheiguana2000 <nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
  --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Lainie Wolf <lainiewolf702@y...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't understand reporting regulations for casinos, but I can
contribute this to the discussion:

CTR: Currency Transaction Report, any cash transaction of 10k or more
goes on here, suspicious or not. Cash transaction can include other
negotiable instruments (i.e. Euros, travelers cheques).

SAR: Suspicious Activity Report, this is for <i>suspicious</i>
transactions over a certain amount of money. What is suspicious? The
have training courses, pamphlets and FAQs to help you figure it out.
My rule of thumb; if you are not sure if it's suspicious or not, put
it on the report.

···

On 12/30/05, Lainie Wolf <lainiewolf702@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thanks. Between this and the link that Brian sent yesterday, I'm beginning to understand. For awhile, I was thinking that the casinos had to report on players playing more than $5k in action.

Based on my reading this document, I'm now thinking that they really are talking about suspicous activity. Here's what I think they're saying -- if someone knows otherwise, I'd like to be corrected.

If someone who plays $25 triple play VP and brings $10,000 to the casino, that person probably would have paperwork filed on them UNTIL they became a regular player at that casino (at that level) -- and showed that their level of play is "normal."

Conversely, I wonder... if someone goes from being a single line nickel player to occasionally playing $5 fifty play -- would that trigger reporting? (It sounds like it might....)

This is interesting and thought-provoking. On a related note, does anyone think that money launderers use slot club cards?

Lainie

nightoftheiguana2000 <nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Lainie Wolf <lainiewolf702@y...> wrote:
> I'm confused.

Is this better:

http://www.treasury.gov/press/releases/docs/casinosarfinalrule.pdf

In other words, it is expected that casinos will follow a risk-based
approach in monitoring for suspicious transactions, and will report
all detected suspicious transactions that involve $5,000 or
more in funds or other assets. A well-implemented anti-money
laundering compliance program should reinforce a casino's efforts in
detecting suspicious activity. In addition, casinos are encouraged to
report on a voluntary basis detected suspicious transactions that
fall below the $5,000 reporting threshold, such as the submission by a
customer of an identification document that the casino suspects is
false or altered, in the course of a transaction that triggers an
identification requirement under the Bank Secrecy Act or other law.

---------------------------------
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

<< If someone who plays $25 triple play VP and brings $10,000 to the
casino, that person probably would have paperwork filed on them UNTIL they
became a regular player at that casino (at that level) -- and showed that
their level of play is "normal." >>

A CTR-C report will be filed every time you have aggregate daily cash
transactions over $10,000.

The "suspicious person report" is filed if you appear to be structuring your
transactions to avoid the CTR-C, or if you are acting suspicious in some
other way.

Cogno

Good Morning, Bob.

Thank you for a thoughtful and interesting post.

For the "average" player, be he/she a flea or a bumble bee, I will
still disagree with you (civilly, of course).

In your particular case, your point is well taken that you are a
known and recognized VP celebrity. I do understand that when you
are in a casino, you are under the constant scrutiny of both casino
employees and other players. Therefore, in order to conduct your
business in the most expeditious possible manner, it behooves you to
be perceived as a calm and rational individual.

Under your unusual circumstances, I agree that it is best for you to
keep a very low profile, fly under the radar as much as possible,
and reserve your legimate complaints for those that are very serious.

So, in your case, we are on the same page. Our civil disagreement
pertains to vast majority of unsung and unknown VP players. For
those folks, including myself, I must stick with my original
premise.

IMO, the cage supervisor was unnecessarily rude, insulting and
demeaning during his interrogation of Brian. Had he been polite,
while attempting to garner the information he was seeking from
Brian, I would not have objected. i.e. Had he said (with a pleasant
smile of course) "You've certainly been lucky today. What have you
been playing that enabled you to collect so many $500 tickets?" If
he had phrased his query in that manner, I doubt that Brian would
have even taken note of the questions, no less posted about the
experience.

I asume that the supervisor believed that he was fulfilling the
tenets of his job description. Perhaps he became a little over-
zealous in his desire to protect his employer's bankroll. But I
don't believe that was a legimate excuse for accusing a casino
patron of cheating.

I would take the accusation that I was cheating VERY seriously. I
would also make absolutely certain that a sincere apology was
tendered to me, by a person in authority, for the insult of
intimating that I was cheating. I am also a professional person,
engaged in a financial services business. The last thing in the
world that I want, is to be thought of as a thief, attempting to
illegally obtain money from a casino!

I do agree with your premise that Brian was unusually lucky in
snaring 6 sets of Ducks in one session. I'll even go along with your
premise that the supervisor had never seen this happen before.
However, none of this negates the fact that he was egregiously
insulting to Brian.

My personal "4 Deuces best" in a long VP "career", was 3 sets in
about 3 hours, at Fiesta Rancho, earlier this year. BTW, one set was
LDW, while the other 2 were FPDW. When I cashed in what ultimately
became an $1100+ ticket, no one questioned me at all.

I cannot argue with your statement that "some of us are more
emotional" than others. I'm sure that is true. In my case, I am
generally perceived to be calm, balanced and polite. However,
anyone who has the temerity to accuse me of dishonesty WITHOUT A
SHRED OF EVIDENCE, will quickly be shown my other side!

Best regards,

-Babe-

···

=======================================================
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@c...> wrote:

Okay. Let's disagree civilly. But I definitely stick with my
position. Let me tell you a little more about it............

               <SNIP>

........... I accept that officially I am legally the "guest" of
casinos and that they may ask me to leave for any reason they like --
- so long as it isn't because I'm non-white, female, disabled, or
some other protected class. If casinos want to question me about
something, that's their right. If they touch me, threaten me, yell
at me, or otherwise cross the line, then we'd have had a different
situation. But in the situation at the Edgewater, we had none of
that kind of abuse.

In addition to being a "guest" of the casino, one additional factor
that affects me and not most others is that I'm a well-known
gambling personality. In addition to being a winning player, a
status several others here also qualify for, I'm a "big fish in a
small pond" video-poker-wise. In effect, I am always "on stage"
when I'm in the casino. There will often be someone seeing Bob
Dancer for the firsttime, and if I do anything loud, negative, or
otherwise attention-worthy, they'll remember it --- and often talk
about it disparageingly.......................

........... (Now Brian may not be part of this "well known gambling
personality" fraternity, but them fact that I am affected my answer.)
        
Please remember that this was an unusual situation. There have
only been a few times lifetime that I've collected six or more sets
of deuces on a single-line machine in the same day.................
Having 6 of these jackpots in one day is unusual. (Come on, how many
times have YOU had this good fortune?) And 50 cents is a rather
obscure denomination --- relativelyspeaking. I doubt that this
supervisor had EVER seen more than two of these $500 jackpot tickets
at the same time before. Six all at once?.......................

.........Some people are more prone to get emotional and demand they
be treated "appropriately" than I usually am (although I've had my
moments through the years). Part of that might be a difference in
personality. Part of this might be a difference in perspective due
to our differentstatuses within the casino. There are truly times
when it's right to yell and scream and demand to speak to the
president. But this, IMO, wasn't one of them.

Bob Dancer

Even worse, if you _do_ know this and cash out in a way that attempts
to avoid the transaction reports, you can be charged with "structuring".

I thought I saw an article a while back claiming that they've reduced the
limit to $1500 for casinos.

···

On Thursday 29 December 2005 06:40 pm, Cogno Scienti wrote:

<<I'm confused. Doesn't this talk about depositing funds with the casinos
(as opposed to removing funds from the casinos)? I can see that the
government would want to regulate record-keeping depending on how much
money you can deposit up front - or withdraw from those accounts in one
transaction (as anti money laundering measures), but what's the
relationship between this and cashing your VP TITO vouchers?>>

Any cash transactions with a total aggregate amount of over $10k in a day
cause a secret form to be filed called a CTR-C (Cash Transaction Report for
Casinos). To comply with this, they record every transaction of $3000 or
more. They are not permitted to tell you why they are doing this, even if
you ask.