vpFREE2 Forums

Horseshoe "Bonus Poker"

#1

Hi everyone,

I'm a small-time player in Indiana. I play quarters. Recently I was at Horseshoe Southern Indiana, where I usually enjoy the full-pay machines on the 2nd level. However, this particular midweek night, they were full all night, so I went downstairs. The machines there clearly showed the same "Bonus Poker" icon that the machines upstairs sport, with the same 8/5 pay table (or so I thought). I only looked for the 8/5 designations and it wasn't until I hit 4 aces and was paid 135 credits that I realized the game I was playing was NOT Bonus Poker, or not any game I know of to be called so. The only difference between this game and Jacks or Better was a 10 or 15-credit difference in the payout for any 4K. (I can't remember the exact amount of the difference, but it was no more than 15 credits when playing 5 coins.) There were no payouts designated for the low 4Ks or 4 aces at all. All 4Ks were the same. I was essentially playing JOB with an 8/5 pay table instead of a 9/6 table like they offer upstairs. This is something I would never knowingly do. I am angry with myself for assuming that 8/5 Bonus meant 8/5 Bonus. I should have checked the whole pay table. But it still doesn't seem right that Harrah's was allowed to use a tactic like this.

My questions to you all are: How common an experience is this? Is it ethical/legally allowed for a casino to use the same game name and game selection icon ("Bonus Poker") for two completely different games on 2 GameKing machines within the same house? What does "Bonus Poker" mean to you all? I had never seen a game with that name that did not offer higher bonuses for certain 4Ks. I guess this is also a heads-up that just because a game says "Bonus Poker" does not in fact make it Bonus Poker. I just wonder about them using that name designation for what is essentially a JOB game. Is the name owned by GameKing or by the casinos? How can they use this name, and use it to represent 2 separate and very different actual games in the same casino?

I am not going back to Horseshoe after this. Has anyone else had this kind of thing happen?

Thanks,
Laura

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

knowing that many folks simply check the full house and flush payouts, some casinos take, um, 'liberties" with the pay tables. some casinos short the royal to 2500 coins on some games. others have been known to short the 4OAKs.

but this is a pretty extreme case, wherein the game you describe barely has the characteristics mostly commonly associated with it. if you are certain that the game you were playing was labelled "bonus poker" and you are certain that there were no bonus quads or aces payouts... then you may have a legitimate beef. you can bring it to the attention of the slot supervisor and, if not satisfied with the answer you get, you can even ask the IGC to look into it.

but please note: a payout of 135 coins is indeed more than you would get in jacks, so - technically - i'd have to say that could be considered a "bonus" quad, even if it is far less than you would normally expect to get in a game called "bonus poker." that being said, i've never seen a pay table for "bonus poker" with a pay out as low as that, nor one that didn't have special payouts for aces or low quads, so i'm truly puzzled.

in any case, is shorting the 4OAK legal?

sadly, i believe it is... if the pay table clearly stated what the payouts were.

there are at least a dozen different variations of the game commonly known as deuces wild, but only a few of them are worth playing. but every casino still calls their inferior versions "deuces wild."

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Knit30@... wrote:

...The machines there clearly showed the same "Bonus Poker" icon that the machines upstairs sport, with the same 8/5 pay table (or so I thought). I only looked for the 8/5 designations and it wasn't until I hit 4 aces and was paid 135 credits that I realized the game I was playing was NOT Bonus Poker, or not any game I know of to be called so... I should have checked the whole pay table. But it still doesn't seem right that Harrah's was allowed to use a tactic like this...

...How common an experience is this? Is it ethical/legally allowed for a casino to use the same game name and game selection icon ("Bonus Poker") for two completely different games on 2 GameKing machines within the same house?...

#3

I've seen those every now and then, but normally when i see a "bonus poker" game that pays the same for all quads it pays 35 for 1 on the quads, which actually gives it a higher return (99.66%) than the regular 8/5 BP. Are you sure that you weren't getting 35 for 1? You mentioned you got paid 135 which seems like a strange number as it would be 27 for 1. Is it possible you saw the the "35" in the single coin paytable and misremembered it as a "135" in the five-coin paytable?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Knit30@... wrote:

Hi everyone,

I'm a small-time player in Indiana. I play quarters. Recently I was at Horseshoe Southern Indiana, where I usually enjoy the full-pay machines on the 2nd level. However, this particular midweek night, they were full all night, so I went downstairs. The machines there clearly showed the same "Bonus Poker" icon that the machines upstairs sport, with the same 8/5 pay table (or so I thought). I only looked for the 8/5 designations and it wasn't until I hit 4 aces and was paid 135 credits that I realized the game I was playing was NOT Bonus Poker, or not any game I know of to be called so. The only difference between this game and Jacks or Better was a 10 or 15-credit difference in the payout for any 4K. (I can't remember the exact amount of the difference, but it was no more than 15 credits when playing 5 coins.) There were no payouts designated for the low 4Ks or 4 aces at all. All 4Ks were the same. I was essentially playing JOB with an 8/5 pay table instead of a 9/6 table like they offer upstairs. This is something I would never knowingly do. I am angry with myself for assuming that 8/5 Bonus meant 8/5 Bonus. I should have checked the whole pay table. But it still doesn't seem right that Harrah's was allowed to use a tactic like this.

My questions to you all are: How common an experience is this? Is it ethical/legally allowed for a casino to use the same game name and game selection icon ("Bonus Poker") for two completely different games on 2 GameKing machines within the same house? What does "Bonus Poker" mean to you all? I had never seen a game with that name that did not offer higher bonuses for certain 4Ks. I guess this is also a heads-up that just because a game says "Bonus Poker" does not in fact make it Bonus Poker. I just wonder about them using that name designation for what is essentially a JOB game. Is the name owned by GameKing or by the casinos? How can they use this name, and use it to represent 2 separate and very different actual games in the same casino?

I am not going back to Horseshoe after this. Has anyone else had this kind of thing happen?

Thanks,
Laura

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

i could name a half-dozen vegas casinos which offer variants of "bonus
poker" that have the same payout for all quads. it seems like a
misnomer to me, but it's common practice. the name doesn't certify
anything.

in some cases, like 8/5 "bonus poker" paying 175 for all quads, the
expected return is significantly better than standard 8/5 BP. in other
cases, like 8/5 "bonus poker" paying 150 for all quads, it's
significantly worse. i've never seen 135 for all quads, but it doesn't
surprise me.

i've also seen bonus poker games that paid even money for two pair - i
was so excited the first time i saw a 10/8 bonus poker machine until i
noticed that! - or that paid 2500 for the royal instead of 4000. the
flush and full house may be the most common payouts to vary, but you
need to check the full paytable every time you sit down to play.

chalk up your not-so-bonus quad aces as a learning experience.

cheers,

five

···

On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 9:22 PM, <Knit30@aol.com> wrote:

There were no payouts designated for the low 4Ks or 4 aces at all. All 4Ks were the same. I was essentially playing JOB with an 8/5 pay table instead of a 9/6 table like they offer upstairs. This is something I would never knowingly do. I am angry with myself for assuming that 8/5 Bonus meant 8/5 Bonus. I should have checked the whole pay table. But it still doesn't seem right that Harrah's was allowed to use a tactic like this.

My questions to you all are: How common an experience is this? Is it ethical/legally allowed for a casino to use the same game name and game selection icon ("Bonus Poker") for two completely different games on 2 GameKing machines within the same house?

#5

Ahhh...another amusing week as I scratched three more plays from my dossier of
advantage VP situations. I decided to skip the AP convention at South Point
today (can they just do it like they do at DMV and you take a number and they'll
tell you when you're 100-play is ready?), then decided to catch up on the forum.
You guys are killing me.

First I check out yet another successful Coach Vee trip report. Vee might be the
greatest VP player of all time, making 300 zillion on a game which pays 99% and
has 1.5% theo. Wish I could pull that trick off.

Then, while still in AC, I get treated to a guy who assures us he is
professional grade in the casino, but apparently not professional grade enough
to post an ER of a 100% game (the old AC hands hate that stuff), no matter that it's one of the most difficult
games to play, and the particular casino owner is question is famous for being
video poker player hostile. Oh, and IIRC, the cashback is .2. Have fun.

Then I hear the story of a famous VP writer/guru who got backed off on a
multi-line play on the Strip, where they're playing for (drum roll) .35%, with
all the variance you can handle. Welcome to Fabulous Las Vegas, boys. Oh, yeah,
after his backing off he was complaining loudly on the floor why the casino
would let "smart players" (where have I head that one before? hmmmm) like
(naming two players who were playing for that vaunted .35%) so and so and so and
so. I almost crashed my car on the interstate when I got the phone call about
this, I was laughing so hard. You can't beat the irony. You feed the monster and
more or less raise the monster, the monster turns around and bites you in the
ass and it's NOT your fault. Well, you won't be seeing any Quick Quads classes
at this property any time soon roflmao.

Then cometh the April Fool's prank from a Gulf Coast-based amateur (albeit
apparently a very wealthy one), claiming he's just gotten off the phone with his
host and was told he was stripped of his 7* privileges and is now a Diamond
because he's a VP player. Can't tell you how many people bought into that one. I
fell for it too.

Then we have the Vegas VP newby, who has arrived to this party about 15 years
too late, and is thinking he can get the game and the plays to be delivered to
his door faster than Domino's can send you a pizza. Part of me wonders if you
can actually make up being that naive, and if it's just some pro having fun with
the group.

Then we come to this post. Lady is complaining that she is playing a 99.67%
game, when she wanted to play a 99.17% one. I have to agree with the other
posters all right...lady got ripped off. They offer that ripoff 8-5-35 "Bonus"
poker in a $5 denom?

Next thing the lady will be complaining about, is about making Puerto Rico a
steak.

Not only would I bitch directly to Gary Loveman, who will certainly fix that
problem in a heart beat, he'll probably take it one step further and make that
"8" a "7". I'd also call Gaming immediately as well.

The day job is looking better and better all the time.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Knit30@... wrote:

Hi everyone,

I'm a small-time player in Indiana. I play quarters. Recently I was at Horseshoe Southern Indiana, where I usually enjoy the full-pay machines on the 2nd level. However, this particular midweek night, they were full all night, so I went downstairs. The machines there clearly showed the same "Bonus Poker" icon that the machines upstairs sport, with the same 8/5 pay table (or so I thought). I only looked for the 8/5 designations and it wasn't until I hit 4 aces and was paid 135 credits that I realized the game I was playing was NOT Bonus Poker, or not any game I know of to be called so. The only difference between this game and Jacks or Better was a 10 or 15-credit difference in the payout for any 4K. (I can't remember the exact amount of the difference, but it was no more than 15 credits when playing 5 coins.) There were no payouts designated for the low 4Ks or 4 aces at all. All 4Ks were the same. I was essentially playing JOB with an 8/5 pay table instead of a 9/6 table like they offer upstairs. This is something I would never knowingly do. I am angry with myself for assuming that 8/5 Bonus meant 8/5 Bonus. I should have checked the whole pay table. But it still doesn't seem right that Harrah's was allowed to use a tactic like this.

My questions to you all are: How common an experience is this? Is it ethical/legally allowed for a casino to use the same game name and game selection icon ("Bonus Poker") for two completely different games on 2 GameKing machines within the same house? What does "Bonus Poker" mean to you all? I had never seen a game with that name that did not offer higher bonuses for certain 4Ks. I guess this is also a heads-up that just because a game says "Bonus Poker" does not in fact make it Bonus Poker. I just wonder about them using that name designation for what is essentially a JOB game. Is the name owned by GameKing or by the casinos? How can they use this name, and use it to represent 2 separate and very different actual games in the same casino?

I am not going back to Horseshoe after this. Has anyone else had this kind of thing happen?

Thanks,
Laura

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

Then we come to this post. Lady is complaining that she is playing a 99.67% game, when he wanted to play a 99.17% one. I have to agree with the other posters all right...dude got ripped off. They offer that ripoff 8-5-35 "Bonus" poker in a $5 denom?

Next thing the lady will be complaining about, is about making Puerto Rico a steak.

Not only would I bitch directly to Gary Loveman, who will certainly fix that problem in a heart beat, he'll probably take it one step further and make that "8" a "7". I'd also call Gaming immediately as well.

The day job is looking better and better all the time.

I think you confused the 35 pay on all 4 of a kinds game with the 135
coins that she said she got.

#7

if you are certain that the game you were playing was labeled "bonus poker" and you are certain that there were no bonus quads or aces payouts... then you may have a legitimate beef.

There's no "legitimate beef" about it, you just have to be an adult and be responsible for yourself, checking the paytable before you play. It's not difficult.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ukstages" <takeme2london@...> wrote:

#8

I'm just wondering, Paladin, do you play poker? Live and/or online?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "WP SF" <paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

The day job is looking better and better all the time.

#9

8/5/35, 8/5/30 and 6/5/35 are common "jacks" versions called "bonus poker"
on IGT Game Kings. I have also seen a weird BP Deluxe paytable on 100 line
called "jacks or better". (Stranger still is that the bank of machines with
this also had 9/6 BP Deluxe.)

···

From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
ukstages
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 1:35 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Horseshoe "Bonus Poker"

knowing that many folks simply check the full house and flush payouts, some
casinos take, um, 'liberties" with the pay tables. some casinos short the
royal to 2500 coins on some games. others have been known to short the
4OAKs.

but this is a pretty extreme case, wherein the game you describe barely has
the characteristics mostly commonly associated with it. if you are certain
that the game you were playing was labelled "bonus poker" and you are
certain that there were no bonus quads or aces payouts... then you may have
a legitimate beef. you can bring it to the attention of the slot supervisor
and, if not satisfied with the answer you get, you can even ask the IGC to
look into it.

but please note: a payout of 135 coins is indeed more than you would get in
jacks, so - technically - i'd have to say that could be considered a "bonus"
quad, even if it is far less than you would normally expect to get in a game
called "bonus poker." that being said, i've never seen a pay table for
"bonus poker" with a pay out as low as that, nor one that didn't have
special payouts for aces or low quads, so i'm truly puzzled.

in any case, is shorting the 4OAK legal?

sadly, i believe it is... if the pay table clearly stated what the payouts
were.

there are at least a dozen different variations of the game commonly known
as deuces wild, but only a few of them are worth playing. but every casino
still calls their inferior versions "deuces wild."

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> , Knit30@...
wrote:

...The machines there clearly showed the same "Bonus Poker" icon that the

machines upstairs sport, with the same 8/5 pay table (or so I thought). I
only looked for the 8/5 designations and it wasn't until I hit 4 aces and
was paid 135 credits that I realized the game I was playing was NOT Bonus
Poker, or not any game I know of to be called so... I should have checked
the whole pay table. But it still doesn't seem right that Harrah's was
allowed to use a tactic like this...

...How common an experience is this? Is it ethical/legally allowed for a

casino to use the same game name and game selection icon ("Bonus Poker") for
two completely different games on 2 GameKing machines within the same
house?...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

Thanks to everyone for all your responses. I think it was actually 8/5/30, and I was paid 150 coins for all 4Ks. I remember thinking it was just a few credits more than JOB pays.

I know it's my fault for ignorance and unintentional negligence. Still, I don't understand how a casino can advertise two different game products under the same exact name and logo within the same house. That seems like it would have to be against gaming commission rules. Seems like whatever passes for "Bonus Poker" at one machine ought to appear as an identical game under that name at another house machine, and if not, the two games should be required to have different names. If this isn't a rule, I think it should be. Does anyone know? Or is it my ignorance and regret talking again?

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Howard W. Stern <howard.w.stern@earthlink.net>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Apr 5, 2010 6:52 pm
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Horseshoe "Bonus Poker"

8/5/35, 8/5/30 and 6/5/35 are common "jacks" versions called "bonus poker"
on IGT Game Kings. I have also seen a weird BP Deluxe paytable on 100 line
called "jacks or better". (Stranger still is that the bank of machines with
this also had 9/6 BP Deluxe.)

From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
ukstages
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 1:35 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Horseshoe "Bonus Poker"

knowing that many folks simply check the full house and flush payouts, some
casinos take, um, 'liberties" with the pay tables. some casinos short the
royal to 2500 coins on some games. others have been known to short the
4OAKs.

but this is a pretty extreme case, wherein the game you describe barely has
the characteristics mostly commonly associated with it. if you are certain
that the game you were playing was labelled "bonus poker" and you are
certain that there were no bonus quads or aces payouts... then you may have
a legitimate beef. you can bring it to the attention of the slot supervisor
and, if not satisfied with the answer you get, you can even ask the IGC to
look into it.

but please note: a payout of 135 coins is indeed more than you would get in
jacks, so - technically - i'd have to say that could be considered a "bonus"
quad, even if it is far less than you would normally expect to get in a game
called "bonus poker." that being said, i've never seen a pay table for
"bonus poker" with a pay out as low as that, nor one that didn't have
special payouts for aces or low quads, so i'm truly puzzled.

in any case, is shorting the 4OAK legal?

sadly, i believe it is... if the pay table clearly stated what the payouts
were.

there are at least a dozen different variations of the game commonly known
as deuces wild, but only a few of them are worth playing. but every casino
still calls their inferior versions "deuces wild."

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> , Knit30@...
wrote:

...The machines there clearly showed the same "Bonus Poker" icon that the

machines upstairs sport, with the same 8/5 pay table (or so I thought). I
only looked for the 8/5 designations and it wasn't until I hit 4 aces and
was paid 135 credits that I realized the game I was playing was NOT Bonus
Poker, or not any game I know of to be called so... I should have checked
the whole pay table. But it still doesn't seem right that Harrah's was
allowed to use a tactic like this...

...How common an experience is this? Is it ethical/legally allowed for a

casino to use the same game name and game selection icon ("Bonus Poker") for
two completely different games on 2 GameKing machines within the same
house?...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#11

This is actually very common I think. Palms, which is pretty much the gold standard of vp in vegas has games with the same name and different payouts.

···

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Knit30@aol.com
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 19:54:45
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Horseshoe "Bonus Poker"

Thanks to everyone for all your responses. I think it was actually 8/5/30, and I was paid 150 coins for all 4Ks. I remember thinking it was just a few credits more than JOB pays.

I know it's my fault for ignorance and unintentional negligence. Still, I don't understand how a casino can advertise two different game products under the same exact name and logo within the same house. That seems like it would have to be against gaming commission rules. Seems like whatever passes for "Bonus Poker" at one machine ought to appear as an identical game under that name at another house machine, and if not, the two games should be required to have different names. If this isn't a rule, I think it should be. Does anyone know? Or is it my ignorance and regret talking again?

-----Original Message-----
From: Howard W. Stern <howard.w.stern@earthlink.net>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Apr 5, 2010 6:52 pm
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Horseshoe "Bonus Poker"

8/5/35, 8/5/30 and 6/5/35 are common "jacks" versions called "bonus poker"
on IGT Game Kings. I have also seen a weird BP Deluxe paytable on 100 line
called "jacks or better". (Stranger still is that the bank of machines with
this also had 9/6 BP Deluxe.)

From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
ukstages
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 1:35 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Horseshoe "Bonus Poker"

knowing that many folks simply check the full house and flush payouts, some
casinos take, um, 'liberties" with the pay tables. some casinos short the
royal to 2500 coins on some games. others have been known to short the
4OAKs.

but this is a pretty extreme case, wherein the game you describe barely has
the characteristics mostly commonly associated with it. if you are certain
that the game you were playing was labelled "bonus poker" and you are
certain that there were no bonus quads or aces payouts... then you may have
a legitimate beef. you can bring it to the attention of the slot supervisor
and, if not satisfied with the answer you get, you can even ask the IGC to
look into it.

but please note: a payout of 135 coins is indeed more than you would get in
jacks, so - technically - i'd have to say that could be considered a "bonus"
quad, even if it is far less than you would normally expect to get in a game
called "bonus poker." that being said, i've never seen a pay table for
"bonus poker" with a pay out as low as that, nor one that didn't have
special payouts for aces or low quads, so i'm truly puzzled.

in any case, is shorting the 4OAK legal?

sadly, i believe it is... if the pay table clearly stated what the payouts
were.

there are at least a dozen different variations of the game commonly known
as deuces wild, but only a few of them are worth playing. but every casino
still calls their inferior versions "deuces wild."

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> , Knit30@...
wrote:

...The machines there clearly showed the same "Bonus Poker" icon that the

machines upstairs sport, with the same 8/5 pay table (or so I thought). I
only looked for the 8/5 designations and it wasn't until I hit 4 aces and
was paid 135 credits that I realized the game I was playing was NOT Bonus
Poker, or not any game I know of to be called so... I should have checked
the whole pay table. But it still doesn't seem right that Harrah's was
allowed to use a tactic like this...

...How common an experience is this? Is it ethical/legally allowed for a

casino to use the same game name and game selection icon ("Bonus Poker") for
two completely different games on 2 GameKing machines within the same
house?...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#12

Different pay tables for the same V/P game and denomination are almost in
every casino you go to. Sometimes two machines side by side have different
pay tables for the same game/denomination. It's the players' responsibility
to make sure that they know pay tables before playing game.

···

_____

From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
stonegate5@yahoo.com
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 8:14 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Horseshoe "Bonus Poker"

This is actually very common I think. Palms, which is pretty much the gold
standard of vp in vegas has games with the same name and different payouts.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Knit30@aol.com <mailto:Knit30%40aol.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 19:54:45
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups. <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> com>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Horseshoe "Bonus Poker"

Thanks to everyone for all your responses. I think it was actually 8/5/30,
and I was paid 150 coins for all 4Ks. I remember thinking it was just a few
credits more than JOB pays.

I know it's my fault for ignorance and unintentional negligence. Still, I
don't understand how a casino can advertise two different game products
under the same exact name and logo within the same house. That seems like it
would have to be against gaming commission rules. Seems like whatever passes
for "Bonus Poker" at one machine ought to appear as an identical game under
that name at another house machine, and if not, the two games should be
required to have different names. If this isn't a rule, I think it should
be. Does anyone know? Or is it my ignorance and regret talking again?

-----Original Message-----
From: Howard W. Stern <howard.w.stern@
<mailto:howard.w.stern%40earthlink.net> earthlink.net>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups. <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> com
Sent: Mon, Apr 5, 2010 6:52 pm
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Horseshoe "Bonus Poker"

8/5/35, 8/5/30 and 6/5/35 are common "jacks" versions called "bonus poker"
on IGT Game Kings. I have also seen a weird BP Deluxe paytable on 100 line
called "jacks or better". (Stranger still is that the bank of machines with
this also had 9/6 BP Deluxe.)

From: vpFREE@yahoogroups. <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> com
[mailto:vpFREE@yahoogroups. <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
Of
ukstages
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 1:35 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups. <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Horseshoe "Bonus Poker"

knowing that many folks simply check the full house and flush payouts, some
casinos take, um, 'liberties" with the pay tables. some casinos short the
royal to 2500 coins on some games. others have been known to short the
4OAKs.

but this is a pretty extreme case, wherein the game you describe barely has
the characteristics mostly commonly associated with it. if you are certain
that the game you were playing was labelled "bonus poker" and you are
certain that there were no bonus quads or aces payouts... then you may have
a legitimate beef. you can bring it to the attention of the slot supervisor
and, if not satisfied with the answer you get, you can even ask the IGC to
look into it.

but please note: a payout of 135 coins is indeed more than you would get in
jacks, so - technically - i'd have to say that could be considered a "bonus"
quad, even if it is far less than you would normally expect to get in a game
called "bonus poker." that being said, i've never seen a pay table for
"bonus poker" with a pay out as low as that, nor one that didn't have
special payouts for aces or low quads, so i'm truly puzzled.

in any case, is shorting the 4OAK legal?

sadly, i believe it is... if the pay table clearly stated what the payouts
were.

there are at least a dozen different variations of the game commonly known
as deuces wild, but only a few of them are worth playing. but every casino
still calls their inferior versions "deuces wild."

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups. <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> com
<mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> , Knit30@...
wrote:

...The machines there clearly showed the same "Bonus Poker" icon that the

machines upstairs sport, with the same 8/5 pay table (or so I thought). I
only looked for the 8/5 designations and it wasn't until I hit 4 aces and
was paid 135 credits that I realized the game I was playing was NOT Bonus
Poker, or not any game I know of to be called so... I should have checked
the whole pay table. But it still doesn't seem right that Harrah's was
allowed to use a tactic like this...

...How common an experience is this? Is it ethical/legally allowed for a

casino to use the same game name and game selection icon ("Bonus Poker") for
two completely different games on 2 GameKing machines within the same
house?...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#13

I play at Harrahs in Joliet and Horseshoe in Hammond. They have "adjusted"
all quads on quarter and 50 cent machines to a set amount. Hammond pays 175
for all quads on bonus poker, and Harrah in Joliet is 150.They still pay 10 for 2 pr.
And harrah in joliet is no way near 8/5.

···

if you are certain that the game you were playing was labeled "bonus
poker" and you are certain that there were no bonus quads or aces
payouts... then you may have a legitimate beef.

There's no "legitimate beef" about it, you just have to be an adult and be
responsible for yourself, checking the paytable before you play. It's not
difficult.

#14

I play there every other month, when they removed several machines from the 2nd deck they moved them to 1st deck and mixed up the paytables on several machines. You really have to pay attention now before you start to play to make sure you have the paytable you want, they are still there you just have to look.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <dlf89@...> wrote:

I play at Harrahs in Joliet and Horseshoe in Hammond. They have "adjusted"
all quads on quarter and 50 cent machines to a set amount. Hammond pays 175
for all quads on bonus poker, and Harrah in Joliet is 150.They still pay 10
for 2 pr.
And harrah in joliet is no way near 8/5.

>>
> if you are certain that the game you were playing was labeled "bonus
> poker" and you are certain that there were no bonus quads or aces
> payouts... then you may have a legitimate beef.
>
>
>
> There's no "legitimate beef" about it, you just have to be an adult and be
> responsible for yourself, checking the paytable before you play. It's not
> difficult.
>

#15

The Taj Mahal in Atlantic City has a similar game. I didn't go back. Theres enough good 8/5 bonus and 9/6 Jack's in Atlantic City for me to play without that stuff.

Ned C.
The Wild Joker

···

--- On Sun, 4/4/10, Knit30@aol.com <Knit30@aol.com> wrote:

From: Knit30@aol.com <Knit30@aol.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Horseshoe "Bonus Poker"
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, April 4, 2010, 9:22 PM

Hi everyone,

I'm a small-time player in Indiana. I play quarters. Recently I was at Horseshoe Southern Indiana, where I usually enjoy the full-pay machines on the 2nd level. However, this particular midweek night, they were full all night, so I went downstairs. The machines there clearly showed the same "Bonus Poker" icon that the machines upstairs sport, with the same 8/5 pay table (or so I thought). I only looked for the 8/5 designations and it wasn't until I hit 4 aces and was paid 135 credits that I realized the game I was playing was NOT Bonus Poker, or not any game I know of to be called so. The only difference between this game and Jacks or Better was a 10 or 15-credit difference in the payout for any 4K. (I can't remember the exact amount of the difference, but it was no more than 15 credits when playing 5 coins.) There were no payouts designated for the low 4Ks or 4 aces at all. All 4Ks were the same. I was essentially playing JOB with an 8/5 pay table
instead of a 9/6 table like they offer upstairs. This is something I would never knowingly do. I am angry with myself for assuming that 8/5 Bonus meant 8/5 Bonus. I should have checked the whole pay table. But it still doesn't seem right that Harrah's was allowed to use a tactic like this.

My questions to you all are: How common an experience is this? Is it ethical/legally allowed for a casino to use the same game name and game selection icon ("Bonus Poker") for two completely different games on 2 GameKing machines within the same house? What does "Bonus Poker" mean to you all? I had never seen a game with that name that did not offer higher bonuses for certain 4Ks. I guess this is also a heads-up that just because a game says "Bonus Poker" does not in fact make it Bonus Poker. I just wonder about them using that name designation for what is essentially a JOB game. Is the name owned by GameKing or by the casinos? How can they use this name, and use it to represent 2 separate and very different actual games in the same casino?

I am not going back to Horseshoe after this. Has anyone else had this kind of thing happen?

Thanks,
Laura

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#16

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "WP SF" <paladingamingllc@...> wrote:\\

a game which pays 99% and

has 1.5% theo.

I am not sure what 1.5% theo means ( I think I understand 99% pay). Could sombody put this into a definition or different words.

#17

You should attempt to make yourself familiar with all versions of the games that you play.
For example here are all the versions of Bonus Poker that are on just one of the paytable listings available to vpFREE members...

http://www.vpfree2.com/pay-table/bonus-poker

I would strongly suggest that you click on the vpfree links at the bottom of all vpFREE posts and then go and look at all of the paytable listings there. Print out the ones that are for games that you play, put them in your pocket and take them with you to every casino that you enter. That way if you hit an unfamiliar pay table you can look and see if it is worthwhile.

You will eventually get to the point where you can look at a paytable and estimate the payoffs to within a small margin of error.

Regards

A.P.

···

--- On Mon, 4/5/10, Knit30@aol.com <Knit30@aol.com> wrote:

From: Knit30@aol.com <Knit30@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Horseshoe "Bonus Poker"
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 7:54 PM

Thanks to everyone for all your responses. I think it was actually 8/5/30, and I was paid 150 coins for all 4Ks. I remember thinking it was just a few credits more than JOB pays.

I know it's my fault for ignorance and unintentional negligence. Still, I don't understand how a casino can advertise two different game products under the same exact name and logo within the same house. That seems like it would have to be against gaming commission rules. Seems like whatever passes for "Bonus Poker" at one machine ought to appear as an identical game under that name at another house machine, and if not, the two games should be required to have different names. If this isn't a rule, I think it should be. Does anyone know? Or is it my ignorance and regret talking again?

-----Original Message-----
From: Howard W. Stern <howard.w.stern@ earthlink. net>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Mon, Apr 5, 2010 6:52 pm
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Horseshoe "Bonus Poker"

8/5/35, 8/5/30 and 6/5/35 are common "jacks" versions called "bonus poker"
on IGT Game Kings. I have also seen a weird BP Deluxe paytable on 100 line
called "jacks or better". (Stranger still is that the bank of machines with
this also had 9/6 BP Deluxe.)

From: vpFREE@yahoogroups. com [mailto:vpFREE@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
ukstages
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 1:35 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Horseshoe "Bonus Poker"

knowing that many folks simply check the full house and flush payouts, some
casinos take, um, 'liberties" with the pay tables. some casinos short the
royal to 2500 coins on some games. others have been known to short the
4OAKs.

but this is a pretty extreme case, wherein the game you describe barely has
the characteristics mostly commonly associated with it. if you are certain
that the game you were playing was labelled "bonus poker" and you are
certain that there were no bonus quads or aces payouts... then you may have
a legitimate beef. you can bring it to the attention of the slot supervisor
and, if not satisfied with the answer you get, you can even ask the IGC to
look into it.

but please note: a payout of 135 coins is indeed more than you would get in
jacks, so - technically - i'd have to say that could be considered a "bonus"
quad, even if it is far less than you would normally expect to get in a game
called "bonus poker." that being said, i've never seen a pay table for
"bonus poker" with a pay out as low as that, nor one that didn't have
special payouts for aces or low quads, so i'm truly puzzled.

in any case, is shorting the 4OAK legal?

sadly, i believe it is... if the pay table clearly stated what the payouts
were.

there are at least a dozen different variations of the game commonly known
as deuces wild, but only a few of them are worth playing. but every casino
still calls their inferior versions "deuces wild."

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups. com <mailto:vpFREE% 40yahoogroups. com> , Knit30@...
wrote:

...The machines there clearly showed the same "Bonus Poker" icon that the

machines upstairs sport, with the same 8/5 pay table (or so I thought). I
only looked for the 8/5 designations and it wasn't until I hit 4 aces and
was paid 135 credits that I realized the game I was playing was NOT Bonus
Poker, or not any game I know of to be called so... I should have checked
the whole pay table. But it still doesn't seem right that Harrah's was
allowed to use a tactic like this...

...How common an experience is this? Is it ethical/legally allowed for a

casino to use the same game name and game selection icon ("Bonus Poker") for
two completely different games on 2 GameKing machines within the same
house?...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#18

Below is the paytable for what passes as "Bonus Poker" at The Taj Mahal (offered at both quarter & dollar level. I ran it through a strategy program sometime last year, just out of curiosity. With "perfect strategy" (and the strategy had some 60 or 70 lines to it as I recall) the return was still 97=something%. Pretty worthless.

RF - 800/4000
SF - 50
4 As - 80
4 Ks - 60
4 Qs - 40
4 2s-Js - 20
FH - 8
FL - 5
ST - 4
3OK - 3
2 PR - 2
JoB - 1

Neil M.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, The Wild Joker <jokerswild1203@...> wrote:

  The Taj Mahal in Atlantic City has a similar game. I didn't go back. Theres enough good 8/5 bonus and 9/6 Jack's in Atlantic City for me to play without that stuff.
Â
Ned C.
The Wild Joker

#19

Still, I don't understand how a casino can advertise two different game products under the same exact name and logo within the same house. That seems like it would have to be against gaming commission rules.>

Why would you think this? Casinos have single 0 roulette wheels next to double 0 wheels, and they call them both "roulette". Casinos have horrible 6:5 blackjack games right next to real blackjack games that pay 3:2 for a natural, and yet they call them both "blackjack". Actually, the technical term for the 6:5 version is "crapjack" :slight_smile: And as for video poker, I don't think there are gaming commission standards for VP game titles. This is something the manufacturers dream up, so they can call a game whatever they want to name it. (Within reason of course. For example, I don't think they could call a game "deuces wild" if deuces didn't function as a wild card.)

I recently saw a sign on a cruise ship blackjack table that said "Dealer must stand on all hard 17s". I got a laugh out of that one. With a quick glance at this sign you might not realize that it's just a sneaky way to say the dealer must hit soft 17, which is an inferior rule for the player.

Always operate under the assumption that the casino will try to use deception whenever they can.

EE

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Knit30@... wrote:

#20

I just heard that Paladin has officially been booted from VPFree.

VPFree definitely doesn't need any more posts from such a sharp, educated player. There's so many quality postings these days, who needs the input from a top 1% advantage player, right?

Now before anyone thinks I'm just sucking backside, I'll be the first to admit the mechanics of Pally's delivery could use some adjusting but he brings the heat and he knows how to keep it over the plate. He's an opening day type starter and those kinds are a rarety these days. Makes me wonder if Steinbrenner is now running this team. :wink:

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "WP SF" <paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

Ahhh...another amusing week as I scratched three more plays from my dossier of
advantage VP situations. I decided to skip the AP convention at South Point
today (can they just do it like they do at DMV and you take a number and they'll
tell you when you're 100-play is ready?), then decided to catch up on the forum.
You guys are killing me.