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Havana Night Club - review & see it almost free (maybe)

Havana Night Club is now playing at Stardust for about $60. Here's how to
see it for almost free or maybe even free (and this might work for any show at
Stardust).

When the Havana show ends they are hand out $20 Match Play tickets. They
handed 2 to each of myself and my husband. I asked if I could have extra and
got 2 more. You may be able to look around after people exit and find more
that people throw away. In fact, a woman handed my husband 2 when she saw he
was going to use them (and she didn't want hers).

You are supposed to use just 1 per person per day. But you may be able to
play 1 at craps, then walk around to BJ, then walk to another pit and play one
at BJ or mini-baccarret. In fact, we were able to each play 3 of them. $20
x 3 = 60. Actual value is about half that or $30. With a little luck you
could end up seeing your show for free.

We actually ended up winning $168 because I stayed to play a couple of extra
hands on a BJ table when the first few cards of the single deck showed up as
low cards.

If you manage to get 4 $20 match plays and win half your bets, you'll come
out $40 ahead.

Presumably the Stardust may give out similar match plays at the end of other
shows.

If you are in the casino around 9:30pm, you might want to keep an eye out
for them as patrons exit a show as well.

If you are unable to use them all that night, you can always come back and
use the match plays another day.

-----------review of Havana Night Club-----------

This show has made headlines when the performers from Cuba could not get
Visas from Cuba to leave their country. Then it made more headlines when the
performers reached the US, and even more when they recently all asked for
asylum in the US.

Siegfried & Roy had a hand in bringing this high-energy show to the U.S.A.

The cast of 30 or so dancers plus 10 singers plus 12 musicians do a festive
and fine job as they first perform numbers which show the African roots of
the Cuban culture, then showcase Spanish heritage with emphasis on Flamenco and
Pilon (coffee dance), then showcase the 40's and 50's nightclub scene
(including versions of the cha cha cha, mambo, salsa, and rumba), and finally show
more modern Cuban dancing. High energy is the theme, with the performers
dancing almost continuously for over 1 1/2 hours, with a few solo songs
occasionally giving them a breather. Not only do the dancers dance, so do the
singers, and even some of the band members.

The show is colorful and well-coreographed. The dancers are excellent,
whether dancing fast numbers, barefoot, or in clog-type shoes. The band is
excellent as well.

All in all we very much enjoyed the performance.

All seats in the Stardust's small theater are good, but you might be best
off not to be in the close-up pit or on the far sides of the theater.

Stardust players can try for a comp. I have a Chairman's card, which gives
me 2 free tickets to a show with each stay. Our comped seats weren't too
great though - way over to the side. Request center seats from your host, if
possible.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

misscraps wrote:

If you manage to get 4 $20 match plays and win half your bets, you'll
come out $40 ahead.

Should that be $80 or do I need to stop hitting the group before the
first cup coffee hits my brain in the morning?

- H.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

misscraps wrote:
> If you manage to get 4 $20 match plays and win half your bets,

you'll

> come out $40 ahead.

Should that be $80 or do I need to stop hitting the group before the
first cup coffee hits my brain in the morning?

- H.

If you win $40 twice and lose $20 twice, that's a profit of $40.

Harry: After you have your cup of coffee, go to your copy of "More Frugal Gambling" - I think you have one? Page 236 will help clear your foggy mind!!! :slight_smile:

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

When the Havana show ends they are hand out $20 Match Play

tickets.

  In fact, we were able to each play 3 of them. $20

x 3 = 60. Actual value is about half that or $30. >

I assume these $20 match-plays require you to risk $20 of your own
money to win $20 on an even money bet. The actual value is not half
the value of the match paly coupons, but rather, the ev of the game
played times the match play coupon amount, therefore a $20 matchplay
played at blackjack is worth approx. 99% of $20...even though it will
appear in the short run that this is a 50/50 proposition. Not to
belabor this point but it is always important to take the long term
approach to get the theoretically correct answer when analyzing these
situations.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@a... wrote:

jaydavidson118 wrote:

I assume these $20 match-plays require you to risk $20 of your own
money to win $20 on an even money bet. The actual value is not half
the value of the match paly coupons, but rather, the ev of the game
played times the match play coupon amount, therefore a $20 matchplay
played at blackjack is worth approx. 99% of $20

Jay, this was the understanding under which I entered my post this
morning so you give me hope that I'm not "out of it" on this one.
However, working in double time in advance of the holiday in hope that
I might manage a full week off, my mental state is such that I'm
prepared to take just about anyone's word against mine. :wink:

Jean Scott wrote:

Harry: After you have your cup of coffee, go to your copy of "More
Frugal Gambling" - I think you have one? Page 236 will help clear
your foggy mind!!! :slight_smile:

Jean, I'm frustrated to say that there's a gap on the bookshelf where
my copy of Frugal II should be -- I expect it's in the small mountains
of accumulated "bedtime reading" that have collected over many months

I don't play tables and don't like dropping in on one for a hand or
two to take advantage of a match play, so I'm light on practical
experience here. I'll catch up on your reference in a day or two; in
the meantime how about an abbreviated spelling out of what I
overlooked. Thanks!

- Harry

misscraps wrote:

> > ... 4 $20 match plays and win half your bets, come out $40 ahead.

I asked in reply:

> Should that be $80 ...?

irvsiegel replied:

If you win $40 twice and lose $20 twice, that's a profit of $40.

My take: Place 4 wagers with ($20 + matchplay) each: total cash wager
$80. Win $80 twice, for $160 ... Net win $80. No?

- H.

<<I don't play tables and don't like dropping in on one for a hand or
two to take advantage of a match play, so I'm light on practical
experience here. I'll catch up on your reference in a day or two; in
the meantime how about an abbreviated spelling out of what I
overlooked.>>

Matchplay

            Whether it says "$5 matchplay" or "Bet $5 and We Will Pay You $10 If You Win," it means the same thing: The casino is giving you money. However, you can't just take this money and stick it in your pocket. The free money must be used for a bet and comes with a condition. You must risk some of your own money at the same time.

            Here's how it works: We'll use the most common gambling coupon-a $5 matchplay for blackjack. Take the coupon to a blackjack table and place it on an empty betting circle with a $5 bill on top of it. You don't have to sit down. And if you plan to leave after playing the matchplay, it's often better to remain standing. Some casinos let the bill play; some exchange it for a $5 chip. In either case, you now have a $10 bet riding-your own $5 plus an extra UNSEEN bet of $5 that the casino has given you by matching your bet. If you win, the casino pays $10. If you lose, the casino merely takes away the coupon and the $5 that you put up. You risk $5 to win $10.

            This is how it works in general for all table games and all denominations of matchplay coupons. If you have a $25 matchplay, then the casino matches that amount and you have a $50 bet. You're paid off at $50 if you win, while giving up only your own $25 (and the coupon) if you lose.

            You will win about half the time on matchplay bets, depending on the game and the type of bets you make. A rule of thumb to figure out the value of a matchplay coupon is to cut the matched amount in half and subtract the effect of the house edge, which averages around 2% (of what you bet of your own money), depending on the game, the bet, and/or your skill level. I usually just subtract 10¢ on a $5 matchplay as a round figure. This renders a $5 matchplay worth about $2.40. A $25 matchplay is worth about $12 ($25 divided by 2 minus 50¢).

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jean, unfortunately this is faulty reasoning. A $5 matchplay coupon
is worth $5 x (the expected value of the game you are playing) what
you are saying, that the match-play is worth about 1/2 face value
would be true only if you were playing a game with an expected loss
of 50%...I don't think even Harrahs has games that bad.

Another way to think of it is as follows: Long-Term let's say during
the course of a 10 year period you play 5000 $20 match-play coups
(let's assume you are very aggressive at getting the Stardust coupons
after the show lets out) those match play coupons are going to stop
looking like 50/50 propositions, but rather as 50% subsidy in free
money from the casino $100,000 bet in match-play and $100,000 from
your own wallet, now of this $200,000 wagered would you only expect
to pocket $100,000...assuming your using basic strategy you would
expect to pocket over 99% of the $200,000, but since you only risked
$100,000 of your own money the return would be around
198,000/100,000= 198%. In analyzing situations alway think long-term,
saying this is a 50/50 proposition is thinking short-term.

These are important concepts to grasp, to get the full value for your
gambling dollar.

            You will win about half the time on matchplay bets,

depending on the game and the type of bets you make. A rule of thumb
to figure out the value of a matchplay coupon is to cut the matched
amount in half and subtract the effect of the house edge, which
averages around 2% (of what you bet of your own money), depending on
the game, the bet, and/or your skill level. I usually just subtract
10¢ on a $5 matchplay as a round figure. This renders a $5 matchplay
worth about $2.40. A $25 matchplay is worth about $12 ($25 divided by
2 minus 50¢).

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@f...> wrote:

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There's nothing wrong with Jean's reasoning. With matchplay, after
the bet is resolved, they take away the matchplay even if you WIN.

Consider a coin flip with $5 real cash and $5 matchplay. Half the
time you win, and $15 real cash is returned to you (your original
$5 cash and $10 winnings, but the matchplay coupon is "redeemed"
and is not returned to you). The other half of the time, the return is 0.

Average return: $7.50. Thus the matchplay, on average, is worth
50% of face value. Getting a 50% edge is very nice indeed, but
it is incorrect to think that the matchplay is really "worth" $5 just
because they printed the number 5 on it.

···

On Tuesday 23 November 2004 01:59 am, jaydavidson118 wrote:

Jean, unfortunately this is faulty reasoning. A $5 matchplay coupon
is worth $5 x (the expected value of the game you are playing) what
you are saying, that the match-play is worth about 1/2 face value
would be true only if you were playing a game with an expected loss
of 50%...I don't think even Harrahs has games that bad.

Thanx to everyone who explained why my explanation wasn't faulty. That piece came from "More Frugal Gambling," a book that Anthony Curtis edited carefully. I'm not saying he wouldn't ever make a mistake - but he has a computer for a brain - so I trust him to catch any math mistakes I might make. However, this one is such a basic concept that even I, queen of the math-challenged, have known about it for years.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

match play strategy is different however:
http://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard/numbered/askthewizard119.html

Does the fact that I have won substantial financial rewards in math
competitions (four year tuition scholarship based solely on
mathematical prowess) change your mind to at least Think about what I
am writing? I guess the point I am trying to make is a little more
subtle than I thought.

Now Jean, what does expected return of 99% mean to you, it means that
over the long run you will get back 99% of the money you bet e.g. if
I place 10,000 $10 bets I would expect my return to approach $99,000
The fact that my experience on a single bet is either +100%, -100%,
or +150% is not what I should be focusing on when I choose a game it
is the sum total of the effect of many of these bets that counts. It
is Wrong to just average theses three outcomes to determine my
return, the more complicated probabilities of the game must be used.

One final go.

Perhaps the limited number of possible outcomes from a single
blackjack bet leads to this faulty reasoning. Let's try something
more familiar Video Poker:

If a casino sits you down at 9/6 JOB machine and gives you one free
$5 spin what would you say the value of that is, I hope you would
agree that the value is $5 x 99.54%. Will you get .9954 x $5 on that
spin...definately NOT but in the long run your experience on these
spins will approach that value. The fact that there are many possible
outcomes forces you to revert to the expected return value to answer
this question, well that is also the correct answer to the blackjack
situation $5 x 99%

Don't take heart in the fact that other people on this forum have
fallen into the same mental trap that you have...1,000 years ago most
people thought the earth was flat and could have queried as many
people on the subject and gotten the same answer "the Earth is Flat"

I am a bit surprised and disappointed by the lack of understanding by
the people who have responded to this message thread. Someimes you
have to think before responding.

Thanx to everyone who explained why my explanation wasn't faulty.

That piece came from "More Frugal Gambling," a book that Anthony
Curtis edited carefully. I'm not saying he wouldn't ever make a
mistake - but he has a computer for a brain - so I trust him to catch
any math mistakes I might make. However, this one is such a basic
concept that even I, queen of the math-challenged, have known about
it for years.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@f...> wrote:

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think the point that Jean was trying to get across is also described
here:

http://casinogambling.about.com/cs/comps/a/matchplay.htm

Save some of these match plays for me! I fly to Vegas on 28 Nov for
my first VP experience. If anyone wants to meet up, let me know :slight_smile:

This site explains the mechanics of match-play, but not the expected
value of these coupons.

On the type of match-play I was talking about, bet $5 own money with
$5 match play coupon, the casino is in effect ginving you $5 of "free
money" with which to bet. To determine the expected value of that
coupon you must multiply the ev of the chosen game times the face
amount of the coupon. Now your experience on a single bet will not
match this value, however, over many years of using these coupons
your experience will approach this value. This value for blackjack is
approx. 99% of face value.

Besides the mechanics of having to put up $5 of your own money to
play a match-play the casino's coupon is still the same as any other
$5 bet. You are effectively placing two simultaneous $5 bets, the
expected return does not change when the amount of money changes,
a$25 per hand player faces the same house advantage as a $100 per
hand player.

If you place the bet on a "even money" roulette bet would your ev be
the same as in blackjck, No, blackjack has a much higher ev than
roulette than blackjack so your return will be high in blackjack,
even though your short term results on a few bets will appear quite
similar.

Does that help you understand how to determine the value of these
coupons? I hope so.

I think the point that Jean was trying to get across is also

described

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mda141" <mda141@y...> wrote:

here:

http://casinogambling.about.com/cs/comps/a/matchplay.htm

Save some of these match plays for me! I fly to Vegas on 28 Nov for
my first VP experience. If anyone wants to meet up, let me know :slight_smile:

jaydavidson118 wrote:

I am a bit surprised and disappointed by the lack of understanding by the people who have responded to this message thread. Someimes you have to think before responding.

...and spell-check!

Maybe the problem is that we are only talking about matchplays for table games? VP expectation is a different animal in my mind. But I am not a math person so I won't try to argue with you. Probably some of the others, who ARE math people, will?

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118" <jaydavidson118@y...>
wrote:

Does the fact that I have won substantial financial rewards in

math

competitions (four year tuition scholarship based solely on
mathematical prowess) change your mind to at least Think about what

I

am writing?

Nope, because I still think you are wrong on this one. Let's take
your video poker example. Let's say the machine has two possible
outcomes, win or lose. Win, you double your money (insert $5 into
machine, get $10 back...your $5 bet plus a $5 return). Lose, you get
nothing back.

I sit you at the machine and give you a $5 bill. You have to bet
it. What is the value to you? $5 of course since if you win, you
get the $5 you bet plus $5 as a return 50% of the time and $0 the
other 50% of the time. If I give you 100 $5 bills, after you bet all
100 of them once, you would expect to walk out with the $500 I gave
you originally. (50 wins times $10 per win = $500).

However, let's say I give you 100 worthless tokens with $5 printed on
them. You can play it in the machine but if you win, you get $5 cash
back and your worthless token returned. If I play all 100 of the
worthless tokens, I expect to end up with 50 $5 bills and 50
worthless tokens in my hand. The 100 worthless tokens with $5
printed on them actually were not worth $500 to me but 50 times $5 or
$250 (1/2 of the face amount of the worthless tokens).

Assuming a hand of blackjack is a 50/50 bet, $500 of matchplay
coupons will be worth $250 in cash to you.

Keith

When I first read the mention of Match Play, I immediately thought of
page 2 of the link I provided earlier. It shows a way to guarantee a
positive EV as long as you have access to 2 Match Play coupons.

jaydavidson118 wrote:

Does the fact that I have won substantial financial rewards in math
competitions (four year tuition scholarship based solely on
mathematical prowess) change your mind to at least

Jay, has it never been the case that even though you scrutinized a
problem several times that you managed to overlook something that
should have been obvious?

You might wish to consider that you have several very experienced
players disagreeing with you and none concurring.

As far as the question at hand, you basically argue that you're
indifferent to receiving a $5 match play or $5 in cash to play with.

Consider that if you place a wager with $5 of your own money plus a
match play, on an even money win you end up with $15 - a net financial
gain of $10 against your $5.

If you wager the $5 and the $5 gift, yuou end up with $20 after the
even money win, a net gain of $15 against your $5.

Clearly the cash is better than the match play. If you disagree, I'm
sure that Jean and others will be happy to sell you match plays for 70
cents on the buck. :wink:

- Harry

Think about what I

···

am writing? I guess the point I am trying to make is a little more
subtle than I thought.

Now Jean, what does expected return of 99% mean to you, it means that
over the long run you will get back 99% of the money you bet e.g. if
I place 10,000 $10 bets I would expect my return to approach $99,000
The fact that my experience on a single bet is either +100%, -100%,
or +150% is not what I should be focusing on when I choose a game it
is the sum total of the effect of many of these bets that counts. It
is Wrong to just average theses three outcomes to determine my
return, the more complicated probabilities of the game must be used.

One final go.

Perhaps the limited number of possible outcomes from a single
blackjack bet leads to this faulty reasoning. Let's try something
more familiar Video Poker:

If a casino sits you down at 9/6 JOB machine and gives you one free
$5 spin what would you say the value of that is, I hope you would
agree that the value is $5 x 99.54%. Will you get .9954 x $5 on that
spin...definately NOT but in the long run your experience on these
spins will approach that value. The fact that there are many possible
outcomes forces you to revert to the expected return value to answer
this question, well that is also the correct answer to the blackjack
situation $5 x 99%

Don't take heart in the fact that other people on this forum have
fallen into the same mental trap that you have...1,000 years ago most
people thought the earth was flat and could have queried as many
people on the subject and gotten the same answer "the Earth is Flat"

I am a bit surprised and disappointed by the lack of understanding by
the people who have responded to this message thread. Someimes you
have to think before responding.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@f...> wrote:
> Thanx to everyone who explained why my explanation wasn't faulty.
That piece came from "More Frugal Gambling," a book that Anthony
Curtis edited carefully. I'm not saying he wouldn't ever make a
mistake - but he has a computer for a brain - so I trust him to catch
any math mistakes I might make. However, this one is such a basic
concept that even I, queen of the math-challenged, have known about
it for years.
> ________________________________________
> Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
> for VP software and strategy cards and for the
> Frugal series of books.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]