vpFREE2 Forums

Harrah's Backrooms and Trespasses 86 year old Great Grandmother

#1

No, I'm not kidding. This afternoon six security personnel surrounded my Mother and me at a mid-continent Harrah's property, escorted us to a back room and read us a trespass statement. It was comprehensive for all 31 Caesar's Entertainment properties.

The reason for me was "Total Rewards violation, running multiple accounts", apparently because my spouse and I play on each others' cards. I also play for my Mother occasionally due to her arthritis. In addition to that, in the last two months I had given 1 hour video poker lessons to our neighbor and her son (a total of four lessons each). In those lessons, I pushed the buttons while explaining the holds. Their slot cards were in the machines. I also coached the neighbors at our favorite game, Craps.

No reason was given for my Mother's trespass.

My spouse, who was not present, was trespassed in absentia, also without any explanation.

Yes, there is more to the story. During those months, we were all earning entries to drawings, and we were all called in those drawings 2-4 times each out of about 100 total pulls. It was not disproportionate, but the neighbor's son and my Mom each happened to win a grand prize.

Although I could be accused of a degree of poor judgement for involving the neighbors, I think this action is outrageously out of proportion to the offense. For the action to be taken without any warning or indication that there was a problem, on customer with 16 years of loyalty at the property seems to me to be just ludicrous! Finally, for a clearly local matter to contaminate our good name at properties across the country is just crazy. It seems obvious to me that we would not take our neighbors with us to Vegas or Tahoe.

I'd like to see the press pick this up and the responsible party at Harrah's Tunica be publicly embarrassed. I was mortified to come up to my Mother at the Craps table, surrounded by security guards as if I were a dangerous criminal, ask her to color up, and help her into her wheelchair, explaining to the pit boss who knows us well that we were being kicked out.

I suppose I'm asking for a lot of harsh words, but I wonder what you think.

#2

I'm in awe.

86 year old Great Grandmother barred at McHarra$$ monopoly at craps table for expert dice setting. Call the media, that would make a great headline.. also standing room only for your craps classes.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "carter561@..." <carter561@...> wrote:

No, I'm not kidding. This afternoon six security personnel surrounded my Mother and me at a mid-continent Harrah's property, escorted us to a back room and read us a trespass statement. It was comprehensive for all 31 Caesar's Entertainment properties.

The reason for me was "Total Rewards violation, running multiple accounts", apparently because my spouse and I play on each others' cards. I also play for my Mother occasionally due to her arthritis. In addition to that, in the last two months I had given 1 hour video poker lessons to our neighbor and her son (a total of four lessons each). In those lessons, I pushed the buttons while explaining the holds. Their slot cards were in the machines. I also coached the neighbors at our favorite game, Craps.

No reason was given for my Mother's trespass.

My spouse, who was not present, was trespassed in absentia, also without any explanation.

Yes, there is more to the story. During those months, we were all earning entries to drawings, and we were all called in those drawings 2-4 times each out of about 100 total pulls. It was not disproportionate, but the neighbor's son and my Mom each happened to win a grand prize.

Although I could be accused of a degree of poor judgement for involving the neighbors, I think this action is outrageously out of proportion to the offense. For the action to be taken without any warning or indication that there was a problem, on customer with 16 years of loyalty at the property seems to me to be just ludicrous! Finally, for a clearly local matter to contaminate our good name at properties across the country is just crazy. It seems obvious to me that we would not take our neighbors with us to Vegas or Tahoe.

I'd like to see the press pick this up and the responsible party at Harrah's Tunica be publicly embarrassed. I was mortified to come up to my Mother at the Craps table, surrounded by security guards as if I were a dangerous criminal, ask her to color up, and help her into her wheelchair, explaining to the pit boss who knows us well that we were being kicked out.

I suppose I'm asking for a lot of harsh words, but I wonder what you think.

#3

I think you're just trying riff on how crazy this all sounds, but in any case, my Mom doesn't even throw the dice (arthritis). She mostly just places numbers. She was showing her 70 year old neighbor her "system". And the two of them did look like quite a hoot. Way scary to those suits.

I didn't "teach" Craps, of course, since there's no skill in it. And after this, I don't think anyone would stand in line, as playing Craps is apparently enough to get you barred if you are also lucky enough to win a drawing. Craps was the only game my Mom played during the weeks under scrutiny. Perhaps the odd moment on a slot...

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Don parks" <donparks21@...> wrote:

I'm in awe.

86 year old Great Grandmother barred at McHarra$$ monopoly at craps table for expert dice setting. Call the media, that would make a great headline.. also standing room only for your craps classes.

#4

Craps is a game of skill. Stanford Wong wrote a book on it: "Wong on Dice".

http://wizardofodds.com/craps/appendix3.html

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "carter561@..." <carter561@...> wrote:

I think you're just trying riff on how crazy this all sounds, but in any case, my Mom doesn't even throw the dice (arthritis). She mostly just places numbers. She was showing her 70 year old neighbor her "system". And the two of them did look like quite a hoot. Way scary to those suits.

I didn't "teach" Craps, of course, since there's no skill in it. And after this, I don't think anyone would stand in line, as playing Craps is apparently enough to get you barred if you are also lucky enough to win a drawing. Craps was the only game my Mom played during the weeks under scrutiny. Perhaps the odd moment on a slot...

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Don parks" <donparks21@> wrote:
>
> I'm in awe.
>
> 86 year old Great Grandmother barred at McHarra$$ monopoly at craps table for expert dice setting. Call the media, that would make a great headline.. also standing room only for your craps classes.

#5

Most people think this backrooming thing is all a big joke, until it happens to them. By the way, you should never agree to go into any backroom unless the casino is arresting you. Also, you should have Bob Nersesian's number on your cell phone, and a local lawyer on retainer as well.

http://www.richardmunchkin.com/2011/08/bob-nersesian-interview.html

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "carter561@..." <carter561@...> wrote:

No, I'm not kidding. This afternoon six security personnel surrounded my Mother and me at a mid-continent Harrah's property, escorted us to a back room and read us a trespass statement. It was comprehensive for all 31 Caesar's Entertainment properties.

The reason for me was "Total Rewards violation, running multiple accounts", apparently because my spouse and I play on each others' cards. I also play for my Mother occasionally due to her arthritis. In addition to that, in the last two months I had given 1 hour video poker lessons to our neighbor and her son (a total of four lessons each). In those lessons, I pushed the buttons while explaining the holds. Their slot cards were in the machines. I also coached the neighbors at our favorite game, Craps.

No reason was given for my Mother's trespass.

My spouse, who was not present, was trespassed in absentia, also without any explanation.

Yes, there is more to the story. During those months, we were all earning entries to drawings, and we were all called in those drawings 2-4 times each out of about 100 total pulls. It was not disproportionate, but the neighbor's son and my Mom each happened to win a grand prize.

Although I could be accused of a degree of poor judgement for involving the neighbors, I think this action is outrageously out of proportion to the offense. For the action to be taken without any warning or indication that there was a problem, on customer with 16 years of loyalty at the property seems to me to be just ludicrous! Finally, for a clearly local matter to contaminate our good name at properties across the country is just crazy. It seems obvious to me that we would not take our neighbors with us to Vegas or Tahoe.

I'd like to see the press pick this up and the responsible party at Harrah's Tunica be publicly embarrassed. I was mortified to come up to my Mother at the Craps table, surrounded by security guards as if I were a dangerous criminal, ask her to color up, and help her into her wheelchair, explaining to the pit boss who knows us well that we were being kicked out.

I suppose I'm asking for a lot of harsh words, but I wonder what you think.

#6

I would think your local TV News would love to cover this story. Have you contacted them?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "carter561@..." <carter561@...> wrote:

No, I'm not kidding. This afternoon six security personnel surrounded my Mother and me at a mid-continent Harrah's property, escorted us to a back room and read us a trespass statement. It was comprehensive for all 31 Caesar's Entertainment properties.

The reason for me was "Total Rewards violation, running multiple accounts", apparently because my spouse and I play on each others' cards. I also play for my Mother occasionally due to her arthritis. In addition to that, in the last two months I had given 1 hour video poker lessons to our neighbor and her son (a total of four lessons each). In those lessons, I pushed the buttons while explaining the holds. Their slot cards were in the machines. I also coached the neighbors at our favorite game, Craps.

No reason was given for my Mother's trespass.

My spouse, who was not present, was trespassed in absentia, also without any explanation.

Yes, there is more to the story. During those months, we were all earning entries to drawings, and we were all called in those drawings 2-4 times each out of about 100 total pulls. It was not disproportionate, but the neighbor's son and my Mom each happened to win a grand prize.

Although I could be accused of a degree of poor judgement for involving the neighbors, I think this action is outrageously out of proportion to the offense. For the action to be taken without any warning or indication that there was a problem, on customer with 16 years of loyalty at the property seems to me to be just ludicrous! Finally, for a clearly local matter to contaminate our good name at properties across the country is just crazy. It seems obvious to me that we would not take our neighbors with us to Vegas or Tahoe.

I'd like to see the press pick this up and the responsible party at Harrah's Tunica be publicly embarrassed. I was mortified to come up to my Mother at the Craps table, surrounded by security guards as if I were a dangerous criminal, ask her to color up, and help her into her wheelchair, explaining to the pit boss who knows us well that we were being kicked out.

I suppose I'm asking for a lot of harsh words, but I wonder what you think.

#7

"HARRAH'S UNFAIR TO SENIOR CITIZENS" would be a nice headline. I think that is the angle you should push. As Gary Loveman would say "That's about heart." I doubt seriously that the decision of a mid-level flunkie in one of Harrah's cotton field joints can hold up nationwide. I think there are jurisdictional problems to say the least.

Several years ago Harrah's/Reno pitched out a senior citizen. He was a small time advantage gambler. About a day and a half of walking around the building with a big sign that read "HARRAH'S UNFAIR TO SENIOR CITIZEN'S" got him back in the joint.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "carter561@..." <carter561@...> wrote:

This afternoon six security personnel surrounded my Mother and me at >a mid-continent Harrah's property, escorted us to a back room and read >us a trespass statement. It was comprehensive for all 31 Caesar's >Entertainment properties.

No reason was given for my Mother's trespass.

I'd like to see the press pick this up and the responsible party at >Harrah's Tunica be publicly embarrassed. I was mortified to come up >to my Mother at the Craps table, surrounded by security guards as if >I were a dangerous criminal, ask her to color up, and help her into >her wheelchair, explaining to the pit boss who knows us well that we >were being kicked out.

#8

Craps is only a game of skill if you/they let it be one. Savy Casino crews know all about dice setting, and once recognized they will kill the play by harassing the player with:
Sir - you must hit the back wall each and every time with both dice.
Sir - no setting the dice, you must pick up the dice and thrown it , as soon as you get it.
Sir - your not throwning the dice fast enough / slow enough / high enough /low enough ( whatever rattles the player or the opposite of the precision throw ).
Sir - we are not going to argue with you again, shoot dice like I asked or pass the dice.
Sir - security is watching you very closely from above.

So todays dice setters, have to size up their mark - win fast , make it look like pure luck, and get out .

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 12:12 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Harrah's Backrooms and Trespasses 86 year old Great Grandmother

Craps is a game of skill. Stanford Wong wrote a book on it: "Wong on Dice".

http://wizardofodds.com/craps/appendix3.html

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "carter561@..." <carter561@...> wrote:

I think you're just trying riff on how crazy this all sounds, but in any case, my Mom doesn't even throw the dice (arthritis). She mostly just places numbers. She was showing her 70 year old neighbor her "system". And the two of them did look like quite a hoot. Way scary to those suits.

I didn't "teach" Craps, of course, since there's no skill in it. And after this, I don't think anyone would stand in line, as playing Craps is apparently enough to get you barred if you are also lucky enough to win a drawing. Craps was the only game my Mom played during the weeks under scrutiny. Perhaps the odd moment on a slot...

#9

Dice-setting is a fantasy. It goes against the laws of physics that a human being could throw the die at the same velocity into the same cones at the same angle after arranging them in his hands the same way every time--or even more than once a shooting session without doing it by mistake.

Some dice crews respond to supposed "setters" and some don't, and the reason some do is not because the practice has any skill validity associated with it; It's simply because word got out after someone decided to dream up the idea and write a book on the practice SO THEY COULD MAKE SOME MONEY OFF THE SALES--big surprise.

I have a good friend at Mandalay Bay who's always telling me that he at times tries to rattle the wannabee "dice-setters" just to have fun with them and watch how they react. They have no policy on it like they do card counters because it is not a threat.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tomflush" <tomflush@...> wrote:

Craps is only a game of skill if you/they let it be one. Savy Casino crews
know all about dice setting, and once recognized they will kill the play by
harassing the player with:
Sir - you must hit the back wall each and every time with both dice.
Sir - no setting the dice, you must pick up the dice and thrown it , as soon
as you get it.
Sir - your not throwning the dice fast enough / slow enough / high enough
/low enough ( whatever rattles the player or the opposite of the precision
throw ).
Sir - we are not going to argue with you again, shoot dice like I asked or
pass the dice.
Sir - security is watching you very closely from above.

So todays dice setters, have to size up their mark - win fast , make it look
like pure luck, and get out .

#10

Carter, I think your very first move should be to apply, by phone directly to the head of security of the casino in question, for reinstatement. You have the right to do that. Explain your case in a non-threatening manner and ask for redress.

#11

That sounds as if it's more than playing on each other's cards, if he wasn't even there. Total Rewards likes to issue separate cards to spouses and then link them.

···

On 8/27/2011 1:32 PM, RWM wrote:

I would think your local TV News would love to cover this story. Have you contacted them?

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>, "carter561@..." <carter561@...> wrote:
>
> No, I'm not kidding. This afternoon six security personnel surrounded my Mother and me at a mid-continent Harrah's property, escorted us to a back room and read us a trespass statement. It was comprehensive for all 31 Caesar's Entertainment properties.
>
> The reason for me was "Total Rewards violation, running multiple accounts", apparently because my spouse and I play on each others' cards. I also play for my Mother occasionally due to her arthritis. In addition to that, in the last two months I had given 1 hour video poker lessons to our neighbor and her son (a total of four lessons each). In those lessons, I pushed the buttons while explaining the holds. Their slot cards were in the machines. I also coached the neighbors at our favorite game, Craps.
>
> No reason was given for my Mother's trespass.
>
> My spouse, who was not present, was trespassed in absentia, also without any explanation.

#12

"...if you are also lucky enough to win a drawing..."
Was there a drawing involved?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "carter561@..." <carter561@...> wrote:

I think you're just trying riff on how crazy this all sounds, but in any case, my Mom doesn't even throw the dice (arthritis). She mostly just places numbers. She was showing her 70 year old neighbor her "system". And the two of them did look like quite a hoot. Way scary to those suits.

I didn't "teach" Craps, of course, since there's no skill in it. And after this, I don't think anyone would stand in line, as playing Craps is apparently enough to get you barred if you are also lucky enough to win a drawing. Craps was the only game my Mom played during the weeks under scrutiny. Perhaps the odd moment on a slot...

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Don parks" <donparks21@> wrote:
>
> I'm in awe.
>
> 86 year old Great Grandmother barred at McHarra$$ monopoly at craps table for expert dice setting. Call the media, that would make a great headline.. also standing room only for your craps classes.

#13

<<< Several years ago Harrah's/Reno pitched out a senior citizen. He was a

small time advantage gambler. About a day and a half of walking around the
building with a big sign that read "HARRAH'S UNFAIR TO SENIOR CITIZEN'S" got
him back in the joint. >>>>>>

I always thought picketing might be the way to go. I was tempted when Gary
and Karen had me trespassed at Ellis Island. That nice Koval Lane sidewalk
in front seems ideal. Not sure what the legalities are in Clark County.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Mickey <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com> wrote:

#14

Linking separate cards sounds great if action on both cards earns points towards Diamond and 7* on the primary account.
Linking is bogus if it doesn't.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, MHS <mspevack@...> wrote:

On 8/27/2011 1:32 PM, RWM wrote:
>

"...That sounds as if it's more than playing on each other's cards, if he
wasn't even there. Total Rewards likes to issue separate cards to
spouses and then link them...."

#15

My husband was not there when they backroomed us. All three of us got all of our points from Craps, so there was no way any of us was playing on another card.

#16

Maybe Carter should ask for reinstatement for himself, Grandma and all else involved. It's kind of apparent they were gunning for Carter.
I suspect Harrah's answer will be no for all.

···

At that point you got nuttin to lose, except anonymity, going to the newspapers. You may even catch an attorney's attention who may see an opportunity. --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

Carter, I think your very first move should be to apply, by phone directly to the head of security of the casino in question, for reinstatement. You have the right to do that. Explain your case in a non-threatening manner and ask for redress.

#17

my goohish Harrahs now like abusing our senior citzens. Particulary one who have physical disaplies and need help in order to play thier machines. You should be ashamed Harrahs.

Paul Skofield

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "carter561@..." <carter561@...> wrote:

No, I'm not kidding. This afternoon six security personnel surrounded my Mother and me at a mid-continent Harrah's property, escorted us to a back room and read us a trespass statement. It was comprehensive for all 31 Caesar's Entertainment properties.

The reason for me was "Total Rewards violation, running multiple accounts", apparently because my spouse and I play on each others' cards. I also play for my Mother occasionally due to her arthritis. In addition to that, in the last two months I had given 1 hour video poker lessons to our neighbor and her son (a total of four lessons each). In those lessons, I pushed the buttons while explaining the holds. Their slot cards were in the machines. I also coached the neighbors at our favorite game, Craps.

No reason was given for my Mother's trespass.

My spouse, who was not present, was trespassed in absentia, also without any explanation.

Yes, there is more to the story. During those months, we were all earning entries to drawings, and we were all called in those drawings 2-4 times each out of about 100 total pulls. It was not disproportionate, but the neighbor's son and my Mom each happened to win a grand prize.

Although I could be accused of a degree of poor judgement for involving the neighbors, I think this action is outrageously out of proportion to the offense. For the action to be taken without any warning or indication that there was a problem, on customer with 16 years of loyalty at the property seems to me to be just ludicrous! Finally, for a clearly local matter to contaminate our good name at properties across the country is just crazy. It seems obvious to me that we would not take our neighbors with us to Vegas or Tahoe.

I'd like to see the press pick this up and the responsible party at Harrah's Tunica be publicly embarrassed. I was mortified to come up to my Mother at the Craps table, surrounded by security guards as if I were a dangerous criminal, ask her to color up, and help her into her wheelchair, explaining to the pit boss who knows us well that we were being kicked out.

I suppose I'm asking for a lot of harsh words, but I wonder what you think.

#18

I think everyone here will agree this is a typical scumbag move by HET/Ceasers.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "carter561@..." <carter561@...> wrote:

No, I'm not kidding. This afternoon six security personnel surrounded my Mother and me at a mid-continent Harrah's property, escorted us to a back room and read us a trespass statement. It was comprehensive for all 31 Caesar's Entertainment properties.

The reason for me was "Total Rewards violation, running multiple accounts", apparently because my spouse and I play on each others' cards. I also play for my Mother occasionally due to her arthritis. In addition to that, in the last two months I had given 1 hour video poker lessons to our neighbor and her son (a total of four lessons each). In those lessons, I pushed the buttons while explaining the holds. Their slot cards were in the machines. I also coached the neighbors at our favorite game, Craps.

No reason was given for my Mother's trespass.

My spouse, who was not present, was trespassed in absentia, also without any explanation.

Yes, there is more to the story. During those months, we were all earning entries to drawings, and we were all called in those drawings 2-4 times each out of about 100 total pulls. It was not disproportionate, but the neighbor's son and my Mom each happened to win a grand prize.

Although I could be accused of a degree of poor judgement for involving the neighbors, I think this action is outrageously out of proportion to the offense. For the action to be taken without any warning or indication that there was a problem, on customer with 16 years of loyalty at the property seems to me to be just ludicrous! Finally, for a clearly local matter to contaminate our good name at properties across the country is just crazy. It seems obvious to me that we would not take our neighbors with us to Vegas or Tahoe.

I'd like to see the press pick this up and the responsible party at Harrah's Tunica be publicly embarrassed. I was mortified to come up to my Mother at the Craps table, surrounded by security guards as if I were a dangerous criminal, ask her to color up, and help her into her wheelchair, explaining to the pit boss who knows us well that we were being kicked out.

I suppose I'm asking for a lot of harsh words, but I wonder what you think.

#19

IF it was your money, and IF the drawing rules only allow a person to win once in each drawing, then to play on 5 cards to be able to win 5 times per drawing is a clear violation in my opinion. Even if most of the entries earned on the other cards were with their own money on their own play with you nowhere in sight, your playing on their cards frequently enough to be noticed probably made it look to security that you were trying to abuse the drawing.

If you were actually abusing the drawing in this way, I certainly feel no sympathy for you. People who play on multiple accounts to win more in drawings than allowed in the rules aren't screwing the casino. They are screwing the other players who would have won those other prizes. If people were cheating in a drawing but happened to be 100-year-old amputees in wheelchairs, should their cheating be overlooked or should they be 86'd? I vote for trespassing.

If you weren't cheating the drawing, then it's unfortunate that you put yourself in situations that made it look like you were. But I would chalk that up to poor judgment on your part, not the casino's.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "carter561@..." <carter561@...> wrote:

The reason for me was "Total Rewards violation, running multiple accounts", apparently because my spouse and I play on each others' cards. I also play for my Mother occasionally due to her arthritis. In addition to that, in the last two months I had given 1 hour video poker lessons to our neighbor and her son (a total of four lessons each). In those lessons, I pushed the buttons while explaining the holds. Their slot cards were in the machines. I also coached the neighbors at our favorite game, Craps.

Yes, there is more to the story. During those months, we were all earning entries to drawings, and we were all called in those drawings 2-4 times each out of about 100 total pulls. It was not disproportionate, but the neighbor's son and my Mom each happened to win a grand prize.

#20

If you were actually abusing the drawing in this way, I certainly feel no sympathy for you. People who play on multiple accounts to win more in drawings than allowed in the rules aren't screwing the casino. They are screwing the other players who would have won those other prizes. If people were cheating in a drawing but happened to be 100-year-old amputees in wheelchairs, should their cheating be overlooked or should they be 86'd? I vote for trespassing.

If you weren't cheating the drawing, then it's unfortunate that you put yourself in situations that made it look like you were. But I would chalk that up to poor judgment on your part, not the casino's.

Well said. I agree totally.