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GVR $1,$2,$5 NSU Deuces MultiStrike (100.02% with the 0.1% cashback)

I just see it as an opportunity, and a transaction, I don't analyze it.

About Michael's line in Godfather III, a friend of mine muses about
the old and new Las Vegas. According to him, the US Government ran the
Mob out of Vegas so the corporations, the real criminals, could take
over. I couldn't agree more. No mistake the most popular guy in town,
the mayor, is a former Mob lawyer.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:

But I agree with you that it's not a "real job." I've struggled with
the morality of being a professional gambler, primarily due to the
fact that it doesn't provide anyone with what they'd willingly pay
for, but there are 2 sides to the coin. A "real job" can also be
characterized as doing others' bidding for money what one wouldn't do
for free. I call that "prostitution." I have a college degree, but I
forewent a career because I was unwilling to "play the game" that
those who have a "real job" must play. I still don't know what the
ideal is, but I love the line of Michael's in "The Godfather, Part 3"
about the higher up he went in the "legitimate" world, the more
corrupt it got.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@> wrote:
>
> >
> > "tralfamidorgooglycrackers" wrote:

> >>>And by the way, I CAN do and HAVE done EXACTLY what you're

doing,

> so your assumption is wrong. I made a fair amount of $$$, back

in the

> day--but ultimately, I realized it was an empty, pointless

existence.

> I contributed nothing--ABSOLUTELY NOTHING--to the world or to my

own

> well-being. By contrast, any "REAL" job, no matter how humble,
> contributes SOMETHING to society.

Don't these folks pay taxes and
consume services that employ others?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "xxxent" <xxxent@> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "worldbefree22001" <krajewski.sa@...>
wrote:

> > >nd by the way, I CAN do and HAVE done EXACTLY what you're
doing,
> > so your assumption is wrong. I made a fair amount of $$$, back
in the
> > day--but ultimately, I realized it was an empty, pointless
existence.
> > I contributed nothing--ABSOLUTELY NOTHING--to the world or to

my

own
> > well-being. By contrast, any "REAL" job, no matter how humble,
> > contributes SOMETHING to society.
>

Don't these folks pay taxes and
consume services that employ others?

Gambling is generally a zero-sum game. So when a professional
gambler wins, he assumes the tax burden that would otherwise belong
to the other participant(s) (the casino in the case at hand).
Likewise the gambler's consumption of goods and services would
most likely be replaced by the casino's consumption if they
were the winner instead.

The net effect on tax collection/consumption when a "pro" wins rather
than the casino is quite small. On this basis, I find it difficult
to agree that the pros increase tax revenue or Gross Domestic
Product.

G'luck all,
Gamb00ler

You're just being dishonest. The emphatic way you compared

professional gambling to a "real job" unmistakably implied that it's
better to have a "real job" than to be a professional gambler. Would
you say, with a straight face, that you meant no value judgment when
you wrote that the life of a professional gambler "was an empty,
pointless existence?" If you don't believe that contributing to
society is better than not contributing to society, why did you use it
as a criterion for comparing the two ways of life?

Once again, I must object to someone, you in this case, putting

words in my mouth. For a given person, an "empty, pointless existence"
may very well be the best that he can achieve--at least he does no
active harm. A person whose antisocial tendencies make him unfit for
the world of work still needs to survive, and in point of fact the
world of gambling provides just such an opportunity for such a person.

You can read any kind of implication you want into what I said, but

my characterizing professional gambling as not a "real job" was meant
to point out that the profession is not one deserving any kind of
favors or special treatment from the VPFree community.

You make over $500K a year playing video poker?

If so, then that's truly impressive, as it would equate to over a
$240/hr play, 40 hr/wk, 52 wk/yr. Hard to believe casino management
couldn't figure out such a play and then downgrade it.

Sorta makes this $310/hr 7x points play seem kinda mundane. After all,
the 7x points was only for 5 days.

Bill

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "xxxent" <xxxent@...> wrote:

Real job? I've been a professional gambler for several years and make
over $500k a year. I probably work harder than you do at your hourly
wage job. I find it offensive that you don't consider what I do a
real job. Just because you can't do it yourself doesn't mean that
it's not a career. I wish I could play in the NFL but I don't have
the skills. However I would never tell a football pro I meet at the
clubs that they don't have a real job.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:

>>>You can read any kind of implication you want into what I said,

but

my characterizing professional gambling as not a "real job" was meant
to point out that the profession is not one deserving any kind of
favors or special treatment from the VPFree community.

Moot point. Non-professional gamblers also do not deserve favors or
special treatment from the vpFREE community.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:

>>>You can read any kind of implication you want into what I said,

but

my characterizing professional gambling as not a "real job" was meant
to point out that the profession is not one deserving any kind of
favors or special treatment from the VPFree community.

Moot point. Non-professional gamblers also do not deserve favors or
special treatment from the vpFREE community.

$300K/yr was a snap up until 5 years ago. I'm sure $500K can still be
done, but maybe not all in Vegas. At the highest levels, pros can run
$75-$100M ci in a year. One top pro once claimed to me he does
$200M/ci/yr, but he plays some pretty thin stuff.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "weharter" <weharter@...> wrote:

You make over $500K a year playing video poker?

If so, then that's truly impressive, as it would equate to over a
$240/hr play, 40 hr/wk, 52 wk/yr. Hard to believe casino management
couldn't figure out such a play and then downgrade it.

Sorta makes this $310/hr 7x points play seem kinda mundane. After all,
the 7x points was only for 5 days.

Moot point. Non-professional gamblers also do not deserve favors or
special treatment from the vpFREE community.

NOT moot point. The favor(s) or special treatment I referred to is

exemption from the stated rules and requirements of the VpFree
community, including, but not limited to, the responsibility to report
good plays.

Weharter wrote toe xxxent: "You make over $500K a year playing video
poker?

If so, then that's truly impressive, as it would equate to over a
$240/hr play, 40 hr/wk, 52 wk/yr. Hard to believe casino management
couldn't figure out such a play and then downgrade it.

Sorta makes this $310/hr 7x points play seem kinda mundane. After all,
the 7x points was only for 5 days."

It's not like that --- at least for me. I've had this annual score or
better only three times --- 2000, 2001, and 2007. In each case, there
was one or more "really big scores" and it goes in fits and starts. On
December 1 of last year, for example, my year-to-date score was barely
$200,000, but I ended up hitting three $20,000 jackpots, along with a
$50,000, $100,000, and $240,000 royal in the same month --- all at
different casinos. It was hardly a steady $10K a week like Weharter's
post implies. Although 2008 is averaging more that that (through nine
weeks --- which is definitely short run), I have no idea what my "bottom
line" will be at the end of the year. (I lost $150,000 between October 1
and December 1 last year. On December 1 I wasn't positive my score was
going to be positive at all --- and yet it turned out to be over
$500,000. In early March, it's impossible to accurately predict what's
going to happen.)

It's always a surprise when great scores happen. A couple of years ago
when Brad and Jean won $500K in a tournament (which they shared with
another couple), this was hardly something they could have accurately
predicted or they expect to happen regularly. They WANT it to happen
regularly, I'm sure, but so does everybody else in those tournaments and
generally speaking the entry fees of the losers pay the winners. There
was a nice "overlay" of several thousand dollars involved on that event,
which means they definitely had the advantage and that was why they were
playing in the first place, but this was a Ph. D. tournament (which
stands for "press here, dummy") and nobody has significantly more skill
than the other contestants so nobody can reasonably expect to win all
the time.

There may be players who regularly make $500K a year from video poker
--- but I doubt it happened regularly in Las Vegas which is where 90% of
my play is. (If they made it at one casino, they'd likely be 86'd after
a while.) There are numerous players who have made that amount a small
number of times. And you're definitely correct that casinos make
downgrades. The Rio and Bally's, for example, reacted to a number of
$240,000 and $400,000 royals in December of last year and as of January
5 of this year, no longer offer bonus credits on $100 9/6 Jacks ---
either in the 3-coin or 5-coin version. Because of that, I'll no longer
be playing at these casinos which greatly reduces my chances for a
$240,000 jackpot this year. (But it may be possible at other casinos).

Some of these big jackpots were on "$200 or $300 per hour" games that
only lasted a short while --- sometimes one weekend only due to a
promotion. The biggest jackpots I hit last month at GVR was "only" $40K
(along with two for $20,000), but I could have hit one for $160,000 ---
and I could have lost $80,000 on the play. The hourly prediction is a
"best guess" and it's used to decide between alternatives. But it rarely
turns out to be exactly as planned. These games are never "mundane", at
least to me. These are great opportunities that only happen a few times
a month and serious players need to jump on them when they arise.

I don't know who uses the pseudynym "xxxent", although if he is being
truthful that he's earned $500K during one or more years, I likely know
him under his real name. It's a rather small community of players who
play for stakes that would allow such a net score and we frequently find
ourselves congregated at the same events.

Some players give their net W2Gs as their score. If that is what xxxent
was doing, it's not a big trick to average $500K a year as it's only a
statement of how big you played, not on how much you won. (I'm an annual
multi-millionaire keeping score on that basis --- but I certainly don't
consider that a legitimate way) The score that counts IMO is your "net"
score --- which means wins minus losses. Even here, though, there's a
HUGE difference in the way players keep score.

For example, Shirley and I spent 22 days cruising last year (three
different cruises --- all comped) to the Mexican Rivera, the Caribbean,
and around the Mediterranean. I don't count these kinds of scores in our
bottom line, but some people do. The last car I won, which was a couple
of years ago at the Palms, was listed as $24K but they strongly
encouraged me to take 80% of that in cash --- which I did. In my records
I show this as a $19,200 win --- but other players may record it
differently. As another example, players record free play differently
from each other. There's enough wiggle room in everybody's records that
it's impossible to know for sure how somebody did --- even if you heard
the bottom line figure.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

A couple of follow up points to Bob's post. First, a lot of the earn
in VP is from hitting home runs, like winning a big slot tourney, like
winning a big drawing, flopping a royal on a 100-play, making a royal
on a denom one or two notches bigger than you usually play, etc. That
being said, you can understand the amount of variance involved. As one
owner of perhaps the most successful keno team operation of all time
once noted, "you get your EV in life". I couldn't agree more, at some
point, you will hit a home run or two if you play often enough and
analyze the plays properly.

The second thing, the opportunities are still there, trust me, my
specialty is finding mid-level stuff with big edges (kind of like the
$2 5-play version of Mickey Crimm, if you will), because I'm big on
certainty. It's a necessity because I'm often not bankrolled as well
as I'd like to be. I also happen to play a number of games from very
well to lights out, including the more difficult ones. In the last
three years, my benchmark has gone from $60/hr to $125/hr, and I'm
finding plenty of stuff, with good certainty, at $125/hr. It's just
that I have to schlepp for a lot of it. The game won't be driving to
your house, that much is for certain.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:

Weharter wrote toe xxxent: "You make over $500K a year playing video
poker?

If so, then that's truly impressive, as it would equate to over a
$240/hr play, 40 hr/wk, 52 wk/yr. Hard to believe casino management
couldn't figure out such a play and then downgrade it.

Sorta makes this $310/hr 7x points play seem kinda mundane. After all,
the 7x points was only for 5 days."

It's not like that --- at least for me. I've had this annual score or
better only three times --- 2000, 2001, and 2007. In each case, there
was one or more "really big scores" and it goes in fits and starts. On
December 1 of last year, for example, my year-to-date score was barely
$200,000, but I ended up hitting three $20,000 jackpots, along with a
$50,000, $100,000, and $240,000 royal in the same month --- all at
different casinos. It was hardly a steady $10K a week like Weharter's
post implies. Although 2008 is averaging more that that (through nine
weeks --- which is definitely short run), I have no idea what my "bottom
line" will be at the end of the year. (I lost $150,000 between October 1
and December 1 last year. On December 1 I wasn't positive my score was
going to be positive at all --- and yet it turned out to be over
$500,000. In early March, it's impossible to accurately predict what's
going to happen.)

It's always a surprise when great scores happen. A couple of years ago
when Brad and Jean won $500K in a tournament (which they shared with
another couple), this was hardly something they could have accurately
predicted or they expect to happen regularly. They WANT it to happen
regularly, I'm sure, but so does everybody else in those tournaments and
generally speaking the entry fees of the losers pay the winners. There
was a nice "overlay" of several thousand dollars involved on that event,
which means they definitely had the advantage and that was why they were
playing in the first place, but this was a Ph. D. tournament (which
stands for "press here, dummy") and nobody has significantly more skill
than the other contestants so nobody can reasonably expect to win all
the time.

There may be players who regularly make $500K a year from video poker
--- but I doubt it happened regularly in Las Vegas which is where 90% of
my play is. (If they made it at one casino, they'd likely be 86'd after
a while.) There are numerous players who have made that amount a small
number of times. And you're definitely correct that casinos make
downgrades. The Rio and Bally's, for example, reacted to a number of
$240,000 and $400,000 royals in December of last year and as of January
5 of this year, no longer offer bonus credits on $100 9/6 Jacks ---
either in the 3-coin or 5-coin version. Because of that, I'll no longer
be playing at these casinos which greatly reduces my chances for a
$240,000 jackpot this year. (But it may be possible at other casinos).

Some of these big jackpots were on "$200 or $300 per hour" games that
only lasted a short while --- sometimes one weekend only due to a
promotion. The biggest jackpots I hit last month at GVR was "only" $40K
(along with two for $20,000), but I could have hit one for $160,000 ---
and I could have lost $80,000 on the play. The hourly prediction is a
"best guess" and it's used to decide between alternatives. But it rarely
turns out to be exactly as planned. These games are never "mundane", at
least to me. These are great opportunities that only happen a few times
a month and serious players need to jump on them when they arise.

I don't know who uses the pseudynym "xxxent", although if he is being
truthful that he's earned $500K during one or more years, I likely know
him under his real name. It's a rather small community of players who
play for stakes that would allow such a net score and we frequently find
ourselves congregated at the same events.

Some players give their net W2Gs as their score. If that is what xxxent
was doing, it's not a big trick to average $500K a year as it's only a
statement of how big you played, not on how much you won. (I'm an annual
multi-millionaire keeping score on that basis --- but I certainly don't
consider that a legitimate way) The score that counts IMO is your "net"
score --- which means wins minus losses. Even here, though, there's a
HUGE difference in the way players keep score.

For example, Shirley and I spent 22 days cruising last year (three
different cruises --- all comped) to the Mexican Rivera, the Caribbean,
and around the Mediterranean. I don't count these kinds of scores in our
bottom line, but some people do. The last car I won, which was a couple
of years ago at the Palms, was listed as $24K but they strongly
encouraged me to take 80% of that in cash --- which I did. In my records
I show this as a $19,200 win --- but other players may record it
differently. As another example, players record free play differently
from each other. There's enough wiggle room in everybody's records that
it's impossible to know for sure how somebody did --- even if you heard
the bottom line figure.

Bob Dancer

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:

> Moot point. Non-professional gamblers also do not deserve favors

or

> special treatment from the vpFREE community.
>
>>>NOT moot point. The favor(s) or special treatment I referred to is
exemption from the stated rules and requirements of the VpFree
community, including, but not limited to, the responsibility to

report

good plays.

How long have you been running this outfit? Were you elected or self-
appointed? How long do you plan to run the outfit?

Weharter wrote toe xxxent: "You make over $500K a year playing video
poker?

Did I say that? I am a professional gambler. There is a hell of a
lot more to this business than video poker.

I don't know who uses the pseudynym "xxxent", although if he is being
truthful that he's earned $500K during one or more years, I likely

  > know him under his real name. It's a rather small community of
players > who play for stakes that would allow such a net score and we

frequently find ourselves congregated at the same events.

You do know me by my real name.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:

I suspected as much, hence the question, but this is a video poker blog
afterall. Was any of that $500K on VP?

I did appreciate Bob Dancer's reply post, even though I already knew
that an annual net of this magnitude would require some big wins and
not a 1.6M hand grind of a $240/hr play, assuming you could find such a
play and actually play that many hands on it. As Billy Crystal said
in "City Slickers II" it's just something that helps me when I put it
in terms of a "real job" person (as Tral... would say).

I would have to disagree with Paladin on one point however. Paladin
has stated many times that he considers Bob to be a "B" talent. In my
book anyone who has been able to net $500K/yr nearly 50% of the time
this century playing VP definitely deserves an "A".

Bill

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "xxxent" <xxxent@...> wrote:

>
> Weharter wrote toe xxxent: "You make over $500K a year playing video
> poker?
>

Did I say that? I am a professional gambler. There is a hell of a
lot more to this business than video poker.

Of course some of my income is VP but the majority is not.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "weharter" <weharter@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "xxxent" <xxxent@> wrote:
>
> >
> > Weharter wrote toe xxxent: "You make over $500K a year playing video
> > poker?
> >
>
> Did I say that? I am a professional gambler. There is a hell of a
> lot more to this business than video poker.
>

I suspected as much, hence the question, but this is a video poker blog
afterall. Was any of that $500K on VP?

Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:

A "real job" can also be characterized as doing others' bidding
for money what one wouldn't do for free. I call that "prostitution."

Example: Joe is unhappy because they can't get their computer to
work. I'm unhappy because I can't pay my rent. So Joe pays me to work
on his computer. Joe is happier because his computer now works; I'm
happier because I can pay rent. Everyone is happier!

It's curious that you'd have a negative feeling towards a "real job"
like this. Indeed, it's irrational to talk of "prostitution" as if it
were a negative thing.

I have a college degree, but I forewent a career because I was
unwilling to "play the game" that those who have a "real job"
must play.

The "game" you're speaking of involves discovering what services
people need or want, and endeavoring to offer them. If you're
successful in offering something that helps people, they'll pay you
for it. What a wonderful game!

True, you end up doing things that you *wouldn't* do if you only
focused on your own needs and wants. If I strictly followed my own
desires, I might watch TV and eat Cheetos all day. But since that
serves no one but myself, I have to connect with other people's needs
and wants, in order to get a "real job." I don't view this type of
connection to the world as anything but positive.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/2008_02_01_archive.html