We are heading out to Vegas in October for our 1st time. I see that
Station Casino offers guaranteed play for $20, $40 & $100.00 for
various games. What are yours feelings for this & any suggestions?
Thanks,
Mike
GUARANTEED PLAY?
They put in several of those games (machines)several months ago.
Most everyone tried them and found that they are not a players game.
Since then they have removed approx. 80-90% of them. I would advise to
find other games, and make sure you check the paytables. they too have
been changing for the worst over the past year or so. If you look
hard, you can still find a decent game at Stations. Altho not as many
as before.
Have Fun and Good Luck!
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mfp71262" <mfp71262@...> wrote:
We are heading out to Vegas in October for our 1st time. I see that
Station Casino offers guaranteed play for $20, $40 & $100.00 for
various games. What are yours feelings for this & any suggestions?
Thanks,
Mike
Thanks for the info...You answered a question I forgot to ask? Paytable
···
--- On Mon, 9/15/08, stardustrio2001 <denbalog@aol.com> wrote:
From: stardustrio2001 <denbalog@aol.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: GUARANTEED PLAY?
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, September 15, 2008, 12:08 PM
They put in several of those games (machines)several months ago.
Most everyone tried them and found that they are not a players game.
Since then they have removed approx. 80-90% of them. I would advise to
find other games, and make sure you check the paytables. they too have
been changing for the worst over the past year or so. If you look
hard, you can still find a decent game at Stations. Altho not as many
as before.
Have Fun and Good Luck!
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups. com, "mfp71262" <mfp71262@.. .> wrote:
We are heading out to Vegas in October for our 1st time. I see that
Station Casino offers guaranteed play for $20, $40 & $100.00 for
various games. What are yours feelings for this & any suggestions?
Thanks,
Mike
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Be Afraid......Be Very VERY afraid................
<<<We are heading out to Vegas in October for our 1st time. I see that Station Casino offers guaranteed play for $20, $40 & $100.00 for various games. What are yours feelings for this & any suggestions?
Thanks,
···
> The main issue, that I see is you start with 0 credits instead of
80 credits if you insert $20 (quarter machine)--- , so you need to
win 80 credits just to break even
They put in several of those games (machines)several months ago.
Most everyone tried them and found that they are not a players game.
Since then they have removed approx. 80-90% of them. I would advise
to
find other games, and make sure you check the paytables. they too
have
been changing for the worst over the past year or so. If you look
hard, you can still find a decent game at Stations. Altho not as
many
as before.
Have Fun and Good Luck!--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups. com, "mfp71262" <mfp71262@ .> wrote:
>
> We are heading out to Vegas in October for our 1st time. I see
that
···
> Station Casino offers guaranteed play for $20, $40 & $100.00 for
> various games. What are yours feelings for this & any suggestions?
> Thanks,
> Mike
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Guaranteed play can be easily analyzed as any other game. Take the number of hands they give you for the guarantee, multiply by the buy in and then calculate the return based on your skill as a player. For example is BP for you pays back 99% (.2% error rate) see what the guarantee will give you based on this. If better than the same play without the guarantee go for it, if not avoid it.
···
--- On Mon, 9/15/08, sheiky2 <sheiky2@msn.com> wrote:
From: sheiky2 <sheiky2@msn.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: GUARANTEED PLAY?
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, September 15, 2008, 5:08 PM
> The main issue, that I see is you start with 0 credits instead of
80 credits if you insert $20 (quarter machine)--- , so you need to
win 80 credits just to break even
They put in several of those games (machines)several months ago.
Most everyone tried them and found that they are not a players game.
Since then they have removed approx. 80-90% of them. I would advise
to
find other games, and make sure you check the paytables. they too
have
been changing for the worst over the past year or so. If you look
hard, you can still find a decent game at Stations. Altho not as
many
as before.
Have Fun and Good Luck!
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups. com, "mfp71262" <mfp71262@ .> wrote:
>
> We are heading out to Vegas in October for our 1st time. I see
that
> Station Casino offers guaranteed play for $20, $40 & $100.00 for
> various games. What are yours feelings for this & any suggestions?
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you are a knowledgeable player, find better machines as you return will be higher. Guaranteed play is only good for those who have no idea of how to play video poker and have only a limited gaming budget.
···
--- On Mon, 9/15/08, Steve & Paula Hamilton <Shamilton5@comcast.net> wrote:
From: Steve & Paula Hamilton <Shamilton5@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] GUARANTEED PLAY?
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, September 15, 2008, 10:59 AM
Be Afraid...... Be Very VERY afraid...... ......... .
<<<We are heading out to Vegas in October for our 1st time. I see that
Station Casino offers guaranteed play for $20, $40 & $100.00 for
various games. What are yours feelings for this & any suggestions?
Thanks,
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pesach kremen wrote:
Guaranteed play can be easily analyzed as any other game. Take the
number of hands they give you for the guarantee, multiply by the
buy in and then calculate the return based on your skill as a
player. For example is BP for you pays back 99% (.2% error rate)
see what the guarantee will give you based on this. If better than
the same play without the guarantee go for it, if not avoid it.
This is a very mistaken notion. The crux of the error is in the
phrasing "see what the guarantee will give you based on this".
The gist of guaranteed play is for a given fee, the game allows you to
play through a guaranteed number of hands, win or lose. No matter how
deep you go into negative territory, you continue to have the
opportunity for a big hit that will leave you a winner.
In standard play, you might buy in for $20 in credits, playing $.25
vp. If you lose that $20 after 50 plays, that's the end of the story.
In guaranteed play, you buy in for $20 and receive a guaranteed number
of hands played (for a Jacks or Better game, it's 150 hands), but you
start with 0 credits. That translates to paying an upfront $20 in
exchange for the game's guarantee.
In the GP case, if you lose $20 after playing 50 plays, you get to
continue playing for an additional 100 hands, win or lose. If, at the
end of the 150 hands total, you have $20 or more on the meter, then
you come away from the session a winner. It's the opportunity for a
comeback from a negative position without risking additional loss
beyond your buy-in that distinguishes GP.
···
-----
The guarantee is the nub of the problem in analyzing GP. To make
clear the difference in play, consider 150 hands of JB under standard
play and guaranteed play. In standard JB play, you potentially might
lose something like $40-60 during a sour run of play. In GP JB, you
loss for that play is limited to $20. On the other hand, whatever
your ending position in standard play for JB, your ending position in
GP will be $20 short of that due to the buy-in with no beginning
credits in exchange.
Enjoy a wild run in standard play that leaves you with $60 against
your $20 buy-in, and you end with a net profit of $40. In GP, your
ending meter will only be $40 (since you start with $0 on the meter
instead of $20), and your net profit is only $20.
-----
So, analysis of the game, indeed comes down to what P. Kremen refers
to as "easily analyzed". What's the guarantee on the downside worth
vs. the $20 shortfall on the upside?
Of course, you need to take into account markedly different strategy
that optimizes GP. For example, it should be clear that if a few
hands before the end of your play your meter is at -$20 that you want
to play very aggressively for FH or better. hitting a few high pairs
isn't going to leave you coming away with any cash whatsoever and thus
are relatively worthless (though not entirely, if you also get a big
hit during that final play as well).
And, ultimately, you need to evaluate the game for whatever strategy
you do employ. It's quite possible that whatever adjustments you
make, you might not quite muster up to the optimal strategy for play
on every play.
Obviously a snap.
------
If there's a good trade-off between the guaranteed number of hands and
the "premium" paid to buy into that guarantee, then this could be a
very favorable game to the player -- just as any standard game's
paytable can be favorable.
However, IGT simplifies an informed player's decision as to whether to
play or not by only presenting trade-offs giving a player, who might
play absolutely optimally, a 95% EV on any available paytable. (Most
players will fare much more poorly.)
But arriving at that return hardly involves an "easy" analysis. It
required some extensive computer modeling -- such as that discussed on
Michael Shackleford's wizard of odds website. See:
http://wizardofodds.com/guaranteedplay
After he presents the numbers for the game, he sums things up by
writing, "The optimal strategy for a single version of Guaranteed Play
is so complicated, it would fill something the size of an encyclopedia".
------
The only thing that can be said to be "easy" in contemplating this
game is to follow someone else's advice: "Just Say No!"
- Harry
Note: To someone such as myself, the fascinating thing about this
game is that it shares some innate properties of stock options and
their valuation. For a hard core financial number cruncher, options
present one of the most exciting prospects because of their simple
structure on the surface and yet intriguing underlying intricacies.
Want to get a feel for the math that's implicit in stock options
analysis? Check out the Wiki on the related Black-Scholes model that
is the classic pricing method for a stock option (it's one of the
fundamental concepts covered in a financial derivatives course in a
business finance program -- with some obviously desirable simplification):
disclaimer-> i am one of the product managers that developed
Guaranteed Play, GP.
First, GP is not for everyone, certainly not for advantage video
poker player. If you can play expert strategy and have excellent
bankroll management skills, GP is not for you.
GP is for new and existing casino patrons who are looking for
time on device, aka entertainment, a place to spend their leisure
time and budget. Again, not for an advantage player or someone
trying to accumulate player points.
This said, GP is not an unfair to players or heavily taxed game.
GP payback percentages come extremely close to payback
percentages from standard play. Yes the GP player pays a very
small penalty in return for the Guarantee, but this is almost
always less than 1%. The session price, the number of hands and
the pay tables were all selected so that GP would approach
standard play profit to the player. The GP pay table is always
the same as the standard play pay table on the machine.
If you have $20, $40 or $100 as a budget for your entertainment,
how long will that last you in the casino? Is it worth the 15
minute, 1 hour or 2 hour drive to the casino to find out? How
long does your $10 last at a movie theater--it lasts 90 minutes.
You are not told to leave halfway through the picture if you run
out of money. You're not guaranteed a good movie, but a full 90
minutes. With GP, you know that you are guaranteed a lot of
entertainment time on device, plus multiple changes at a full pay
royal or other jackpot.
In the next couple of weeks, a new and improved version of GP
Video Poker will be released on a large scale. More poker themes,
more denoms and most importantly a new feature called Zero Credit
Floor. All GP Video Poker will be updated so the session balance
never goes below zero. For example if you lose 99 hands in a row
(perhaps this only happens to me?), your session balance is at
zero credits. If on the 100th hand you hit a royal you get all
4000 credits and you can cash all 4000 out if you want to end
your session. This simplifies player strategy for GP, but
remember that GP is not for advantage players.
A new GP website should be introduced in the next few weeks as
well. It will have demo version of the new Zero Credit Floor
Features and explanations of rules of play and the math behind GP
to determine player pay back.
pesach kremen wrote: Guaranteed play can be easily analyzed
> as any other game. Take the
> number of hands they give you for the guarantee, multiply by the
> buy in and then calculate the return based on your skill as a
> player. For example is BP for you pays back 99% (.2% error rate)
> see what the guarantee will give you based on this. If better than
> the same play without the guarantee go for it, if not avoid it.
"Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:
···
This is a very mistaken notion. The crux of the error is in the
phrasing "see what the guarantee will give you based on this".The gist of guaranteed play is for a given fee, the game allows you to
play through a guaranteed number of hands, win or lose. No matter how
deep you go into negative territory, you continue to have the
opportunity for a big hit that will leave you a winner.
I consider myself a novice player, Would you recommend this type of play?
Thanks,
Mike
···
--- On Mon, 9/22/08, yakmatt777 <yakmatt777@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: yakmatt777 <yakmatt777@yahoo.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: GUARANTEED PLAY?
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, September 22, 2008, 11:09 AM
disclaimer-> i am one of the product managers that developed
Guaranteed Play, GP.
First, GP is not for everyone, certainly not for advantage video
poker player. If you can play expert strategy and have excellent
bankroll management skills, GP is not for you.
GP is for new and existing casino patrons who are looking for
time on device, aka entertainment, a place to spend their leisure
time and budget. Again, not for an advantage player or someone
trying to accumulate player points.
This said, GP is not an unfair to players or heavily taxed game.
GP payback percentages come extremely close to payback
percentages from standard play. Yes the GP player pays a very
small penalty in return for the Guarantee, but this is almost
always less than 1%. The session price, the number of hands and
the pay tables were all selected so that GP would approach
standard play profit to the player. The GP pay table is always
the same as the standard play pay table on the machine.
If you have $20, $40 or $100 as a budget for your entertainment,
how long will that last you in the casino? Is it worth the 15
minute, 1 hour or 2 hour drive to the casino to find out? How
long does your $10 last at a movie theater--it lasts 90 minutes.
You are not told to leave halfway through the picture if you run
out of money. You're not guaranteed a good movie, but a full 90
minutes. With GP, you know that you are guaranteed a lot of
entertainment time on device, plus multiple changes at a full pay
royal or other jackpot.
In the next couple of weeks, a new and improved version of GP
Video Poker will be released on a large scale. More poker themes,
more denoms and most importantly a new feature called Zero Credit
Floor. All GP Video Poker will be updated so the session balance
never goes below zero. For example if you lose 99 hands in a row
(perhaps this only happens to me?), your session balance is at
zero credits. If on the 100th hand you hit a royal you get all
4000 credits and you can cash all 4000 out if you want to end
your session. This simplifies player strategy for GP, but
remember that GP is not for advantage players.
A new GP website should be introduced in the next few weeks as
well. It will have demo version of the new Zero Credit Floor
Features and explanations of rules of play and the math behind GP
to determine player pay back.
pesach kremen wrote: Guaranteed play can be easily analyzed
> as any other game. Take the
> number of hands they give you for the guarantee, multiply by the
> buy in and then calculate the return based on your skill as a
> player. For example is BP for you pays back 99% (.2% error rate)
> see what the guarantee will give you based on this. If better than
> the same play without the guarantee go for it, if not avoid it.
"Harry Porter" <harry.porter@ ...> wrote:
This is a very mistaken notion. The crux of the error is in the
phrasing "see what the guarantee will give you based on this".The gist of guaranteed play is for a given fee, the game allows you to
play through a guaranteed number of hands, win or lose. No matter how
deep you go into negative territory, you continue to have the
opportunity for a big hit that will leave you a winner.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Was this a post or a Press Release? 
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "yakmatt777" <yakmatt777@...> wrote:
disclaimer-> i am one of the product managers that developed
Guaranteed Play, GP.First, GP is not for everyone, certainly not for advantage video
poker player. If you can play expert strategy and have excellent
bankroll management skills, GP is not for you.GP is for new and existing casino patrons who are looking for
time on device, aka entertainment, a place to spend their leisure
time and budget. Again, not for an advantage player or someone
trying to accumulate player points.This said, GP is not an unfair to players or heavily taxed game.
GP payback percentages come extremely close to payback
percentages from standard play. Yes the GP player pays a very
small penalty in return for the Guarantee, but this is almost
always less than 1%. The session price, the number of hands and
the pay tables were all selected so that GP would approach
standard play profit to the player. The GP pay table is always
the same as the standard play pay table on the machine.If you have $20, $40 or $100 as a budget for your entertainment,
how long will that last you in the casino? Is it worth the 15
minute, 1 hour or 2 hour drive to the casino to find out? How
long does your $10 last at a movie theater--it lasts 90 minutes.
You are not told to leave halfway through the picture if you run
out of money. You're not guaranteed a good movie, but a full 90
minutes. With GP, you know that you are guaranteed a lot of
entertainment time on device, plus multiple changes at a full pay
royal or other jackpot.In the next couple of weeks, a new and improved version of GP
Video Poker will be released on a large scale. More poker themes,
more denoms and most importantly a new feature called Zero Credit
Floor. All GP Video Poker will be updated so the session balance
never goes below zero. For example if you lose 99 hands in a row
(perhaps this only happens to me?), your session balance is at
zero credits. If on the 100th hand you hit a royal you get all
4000 credits and you can cash all 4000 out if you want to end
your session. This simplifies player strategy for GP, but
remember that GP is not for advantage players.A new GP website should be introduced in the next few weeks as
well. It will have demo version of the new Zero Credit Floor
Features and explanations of rules of play and the math behind GP
to determine player pay back.
a little of both
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hockeystl" <vegasstl@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "yakmatt777" <yakmatt777@> wrote:
>
> disclaimer-> i am one of the product managers that developed
> Guaranteed Play, GP.
>
> First, GP is not for everyone, certainly not for advantage video
> poker player. If you can play expert strategy and have excellent
> bankroll management skills, GP is not for you.
>
> GP is for new and existing casino patrons who are looking for
> time on device, aka entertainment, a place to spend their leisure
> time and budget. Again, not for an advantage player or someone
> trying to accumulate player points.
>
> This said, GP is not an unfair to players or heavily taxed game.
> GP payback percentages come extremely close to payback
> percentages from standard play. Yes the GP player pays a very
> small penalty in return for the Guarantee, but this is almost
> always less than 1%. The session price, the number of hands and
> the pay tables were all selected so that GP would approach
> standard play profit to the player. The GP pay table is always
> the same as the standard play pay table on the machine.
>
> If you have $20, $40 or $100 as a budget for your entertainment,
> how long will that last you in the casino? Is it worth the 15
> minute, 1 hour or 2 hour drive to the casino to find out? How
> long does your $10 last at a movie theater--it lasts 90 minutes.
> You are not told to leave halfway through the picture if you run
> out of money. You're not guaranteed a good movie, but a full 90
> minutes. With GP, you know that you are guaranteed a lot of
> entertainment time on device, plus multiple changes at a full pay
> royal or other jackpot.
>
> In the next couple of weeks, a new and improved version of GP
> Video Poker will be released on a large scale. More poker themes,
> more denoms and most importantly a new feature called Zero Credit
> Floor. All GP Video Poker will be updated so the session balance
> never goes below zero. For example if you lose 99 hands in a row
> (perhaps this only happens to me?), your session balance is at
> zero credits. If on the 100th hand you hit a royal you get all
> 4000 credits and you can cash all 4000 out if you want to end
> your session. This simplifies player strategy for GP, but
> remember that GP is not for advantage players.
>
> A new GP website should be introduced in the next few weeks as
> well. It will have demo version of the new Zero Credit Floor
> Features and explanations of rules of play and the math behind GP
> to determine player pay back.Was this a post or a Press Release?
I hope you'll pass along a link to this site once it's established. I
wouldn't mind having the opportunity for a little "hands-on"
experience that won't put any $$ at risk. Thanks.
Neil M.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "yakmatt777" <yakmatt777@...> wrote:
> > A new GP website should be introduced in the next few weeks as
> > well. It will have demo version of the new Zero Credit Floor
> > Features and explanations of rules of play and the math behind GP
> > to determine player pay back.
>
yakmatt777 wrote:
disclaimer-> i am one of the product managers that developed
Guaranteed Play, GP.First, GP is not for everyone, certainly not for advantage video
poker player. If you can play expert strategy and have excellent
bankroll management skills, GP is not for you.GP is for new and existing casino patrons who are looking for
time on device, aka entertainment, a place to spend their leisure
time and budget. Again, not for an advantage player or someone
trying to accumulate player points.If you have $20, $40 or $100 as a budget for your entertainment,
how long will that last you in the casino? Is it worth the 15
minute, 1 hour or 2 hour drive to the casino to find out? How
long does your $10 last at a movie theater--it lasts 90 minutes.
You are not told to leave halfway through the picture if you run
out of money. You're not guaranteed a good movie, but a full 90
minutes. With GP, you know that you are guaranteed a lot of
entertainment time on device, plus multiple changes at a full pay
royal or other jackpot.
I grasp the intended appeal of the game. But my expectation is that
the player who is drawn to the game for the stated reasons probably is
one who would be happier if they actually could spend the time in a
movie theater instead.
"Gamblers", of most any type, are not going to gravitate to this game.
Even nominally "aware" players are likely to find playing this
machine over standard vp has all the attractiveness of taking
insurance in blackjack.
This leaves two optimal player segments to target with the game:
- Slot machine defectors who want to hapazardly enjoy the diversion of
video poker, yet are glad to have the safety net of "GP", and
- "non-gambler" conventioneers who get a packet of 5-$20 GP vouchers
in their registration packet to have a few kicks in the casino and
maybe whet their appetite to put up some of their own money.
- H.
I'm going to agree with Harry up to a point but I think the analysis can go further. When the machines originally came out I was sure (and will tell you the name of the Slot Director I won my bet with if you doubt this) that they would fail because they completely missed the psychology of players. Like Harry, I thought there might be a small niche for destination resorts to have a few machines for non-gamblers.
Your new paradigm has more chance and should get a bit more play but video poker players do not primarily look for time on machine. They want the rush that comes from getting 2000 credits for Aces w/kicker. But even with the zero floor most of the session will be spent with the meter at 0. And if they do get a quad they will see a fixed number of hands remaining and may feel it's in their best interests to cash out and void the rest of the hands. Then do they put in another 20 or 100 or just walk.
IT DOES NOT FIT THE PSYCHOLOGY OF VP PLAYERS! (Bob, I hope you're reading this and don't repeat your mistake supporting the original version). And, no offense intended, if I am right that even the new version will fail it will confirm IGT's decline in innovation. Although I wonder if the Fertitas will repeat their mistake.
Bill
···
At 08:09 AM 9/22/2008, you wrote:
disclaimer-> i am one of the product managers that developed
Guaranteed Play, GP.First, GP is not for everyone, certainly not for advantage video
poker player. If you can play expert strategy and have excellent
bankroll management skills, GP is not for you.GP is for new and existing casino patrons who are looking for
time on device, aka entertainment, a place to spend their leisure
time and budget. Again, not for an advantage player or someone
trying to accumulate player points.This said, GP is not an unfair to players or heavily taxed game.
GP payback percentages come extremely close to payback
percentages from standard play. Yes the GP player pays a very
small penalty in return for the Guarantee, but this is almost
always less than 1%. The session price, the number of hands and
the pay tables were all selected so that GP would approach
standard play profit to the player. The GP pay table is always
the same as the standard play pay table on the machine.If you have $20, $40 or $100 as a budget for your entertainment,
how long will that last you in the casino? Is it worth the 15
minute, 1 hour or 2 hour drive to the casino to find out? How
long does your $10 last at a movie theater--it lasts 90 minutes.
You are not told to leave halfway through the picture if you run
out of money. You're not guaranteed a good movie, but a full 90
minutes. With GP, you know that you are guaranteed a lot of
entertainment time on device, plus multiple changes at a full pay
royal or other jackpot.In the next couple of weeks, a new and improved version of GP
Video Poker will be released on a large scale. More poker themes,
more denoms and most importantly a new feature called Zero Credit
Floor. All GP Video Poker will be updated so the session balance
never goes below zero. For example if you lose 99 hands in a row
(perhaps this only happens to me?), your session balance is at
zero credits. If on the 100th hand you hit a royal you get all
4000 credits and you can cash all 4000 out if you want to end
your session. This simplifies player strategy for GP, but
remember that GP is not for advantage players.A new GP website should be introduced in the next few weeks as
well. It will have demo version of the new Zero Credit Floor
Features and explanations of rules of play and the math behind GP
to determine player pay back.
Here is another response, or press release 
First, GP VP is not for existing, advantage video poker player. Bob Dancer did not endorse
the product for anyone but a casual or newbie poker player or casino visitor.
Bill->proper strategy would be to do as you say, if you get Aces with a kicker and get
2000 credits, cash out immediately and forfeit any remaining hands. Even if it the very
first hand of the session. What's wrong with that?
Harry-> your analogy to Insurance on BJ does not hold. with a 6 deck shoe the house
edge is 7.395%. With GP Video Poker, the player forfeits about one percent (on average)
than standard play. The Poker pay table is the same for GP vs. standard play. So it is not a
'stupid' bet, or not as stupid as some other bets in the casino. Just ask the player who hit
a royal or jackpot after 300 hands at $1.25 per hand. They did not have the bankroll to
pay for that many hands of standard play and feel they would never had got that jackpot.
A recent industry survey determined that there were 90 million Americans who gamble
(lottery, poker games, office pools, etc.) that do not visit casinos. they have no 'religious'
objection to gaming but do not come to casinos. why is this?
i believe that many of this group of 90 million do not come to casinos because they have
no idea how long their entertainment budget (money and time) will last at a casino. I have
talked to hundreds of gamblers who are not casino visitors and I have heard the same
story, to paraphrase, 'i went once to a casino and put $20, $40 or $100 in the machine
and 5 minutes later is was all gone, casinos are stupid and for suckers, I'm never going
back'. How to casinos get these folk back to the gaming floor.
Again, this is NOT about the 'game', it is NOT about video poker. GP is an OPTION on IGT
Game King poker machines, also on some felt BJ tables and soon to come on Wolf Run.
Eventually, GP will be on many machines and table. GP is a new payment method. You can
buy your hands one at a time (for sophisticated gamblers) or buy a session of Video Poker,
Slot or Table play (for entertainment gamblers). If you are reading this forum, if you know
who bob dancer is, if you can manage a bankroll, GP is NOT for you.
It is not a Video Poker innovation. It is a value product (across the slot floor and table pit)
that is attempt to grow the entire casino market. It will take time and some new features to
work, but IGT has the resources to stick to it. Casinos that offer GP now will learn how to
market this new product to grow their casino and use GP to create property packages that
combine gaming with dining, hotel, spa, shows, etc. and successfully grab a portion of
those 90 million gamblers.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
I'm going to agree with Harry up to a point but I think the analysis
can go further. When the machines originally came out I was sure (and
will tell you the name of the Slot Director I won my bet with if you
doubt this) that they would fail because they completely missed the
psychology of players. Like Harry, I thought there might be a small
niche for destination resorts to have a few machines for non-gamblers.Your new paradigm has more chance and should get a bit more play but
video poker players do not primarily look for time on machine. They
want the rush that comes from getting 2000 credits for Aces w/kicker.
But even with the zero floor most of the session will be spent with
the meter at 0. And if they do get a quad they will see a fixed
number of hands remaining and may feel it's in their best interests
to cash out and void the rest of the hands. Then do they put in
another 20 or 100 or just walk.IT DOES NOT FIT THE PSYCHOLOGY OF VP PLAYERS! (Bob, I hope you're
reading this and don't repeat your mistake supporting the original
version). And, no offense intended, if I am right that even the new
version will fail it will confirm IGT's decline in innovation.
Although I wonder if the Fertitas will repeat their mistake.Bill
At 08:09 AM 9/22/2008, you wrote:
>disclaimer-> i am one of the product managers that developed
>Guaranteed Play, GP.
>
>First, GP is not for everyone, certainly not for advantage video
>poker player. If you can play expert strategy and have excellent
>bankroll management skills, GP is not for you.
>
>GP is for new and existing casino patrons who are looking for
>time on device, aka entertainment, a place to spend their leisure
>time and budget. Again, not for an advantage player or someone
>trying to accumulate player points.
>
>This said, GP is not an unfair to players or heavily taxed game.
>GP payback percentages come extremely close to payback
>percentages from standard play. Yes the GP player pays a very
>small penalty in return for the Guarantee, but this is almost
>always less than 1%. The session price, the number of hands and
>the pay tables were all selected so that GP would approach
>standard play profit to the player. The GP pay table is always
>the same as the standard play pay table on the machine.
>
>If you have $20, $40 or $100 as a budget for your entertainment,
>how long will that last you in the casino? Is it worth the 15
>minute, 1 hour or 2 hour drive to the casino to find out? How
>long does your $10 last at a movie theater--it lasts 90 minutes.
>You are not told to leave halfway through the picture if you run
>out of money. You're not guaranteed a good movie, but a full 90
>minutes. With GP, you know that you are guaranteed a lot of
>entertainment time on device, plus multiple changes at a full pay
>royal or other jackpot.
>
>In the next couple of weeks, a new and improved version of GP
>Video Poker will be released on a large scale. More poker themes,
>more denoms and most importantly a new feature called Zero Credit
>Floor. All GP Video Poker will be updated so the session balance
>never goes below zero. For example if you lose 99 hands in a row
>(perhaps this only happens to me?), your session balance is at
>zero credits. If on the 100th hand you hit a royal you get all
>4000 credits and you can cash all 4000 out if you want to end
>your session. This simplifies player strategy for GP, but
>remember that GP is not for advantage players.
>
>A new GP website should be introduced in the next few weeks as
>well. It will have demo version of the new Zero Credit Floor
>Features and explanations of rules of play and the math behind GP
>to determine player pay back.
i believe that many of this group of 90 million do not come to
casinos because they have
no idea how long their entertainment budget (money and time) will
last at a casino.
I believe people gamble for the chance to win, losing has zero
entertainment value. If you tell someone you have a game that they can
play twice as long before they lose, I believe the response will be so
what, what's the difference? Losing is losing. Zero entertainment
value regardless of the time required to lose, in fact, if you're
going to lose, it's preferable to get it over with, rather than drag
or tease it out. The obvious solution is for casinos to losen up their
games and promotions so there are more winners, more winners creates
more buzz and more business. The casino makes its profit (the rake) by
ensuring that the losers in total lose more than the winners win.
Reducing winners creates a negative buzz that's bad for business.
Complicated promotions and deceptive practices just increases the
public perception that casinos are simply out to take all their money
rather than provide a reasonable gambling environment.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "yakmatt777" <yakmatt777@...> wrote:
Well said! We could not agree more.Remember ..... life is only what you make it. Never settle for second best.Bill
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "yakmatt777" <yakmatt777@...> wrote:> i believe that many of this group of 90 million do not come tocasinos because they have > no idea how long their entertainment budget (money and time) willlast at a casino.I believe people gamble for the chance to win, losing has zeroentertainment value. If you tell someone you have a game that they canplay twice as long before they lose, I believe the response will be sowhat, what's the difference? Losing is losing. Zero entertainmentvalue regardless of the time required to lose, in fact, if you'regoing to lose, it's preferable to get it over with, rather than dragor tease it out. The obvious solution is for casinos to losen up theirgames and promotions so there are more winners, more winners createsmore buzz and more business. The casino makes its profit (the rake) byensuring that the losers in total lose more than the winners win.Reducing winners creates a negative buzz that's bad for business.Complicated promotions and deceptive practices just increases thepublic perception that casinos are simply out to take all their moneyrather than provide a reasonable gambling environment.
···
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.comFrom: nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.comDate: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:22:08 +0000Subject: [vpFREE] Re: GUARANTEED PLAY?
_________________________________________________________________
Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Please don't feel like this is a personal attack or continue to get defensive. I understand you have an emotional attachment to your product, I have felt the same about mine.
When I saw GP on slots at G2E last year I thought (and said) it had more possibilities than with VP but I still didn't think it fit the psychology of regular casino patrons. I will now state that I don't think it will bring in new customers since it is a rather complicated concept and most casual gamblers reading about it won't feel compelled to come in and try it.
I do think that it will attract a non-regular who happens to be in the casino for some other reason but, again, will not serve as a marketing hook to bring them in.
For these reasons I continue to think that it will not be a successful product but I do like the fact that you took it back to the drawing board and made significant improvements. I would have bet the mortgage that the initial product would fail. I'm not nearly as sure about the revamped product.
But good luck, anyway.
Regards,
Bill
···
At 05:17 AM 9/23/2008, you wrote:
Here is another response, or press release
First, GP VP is not for existing, advantage video poker player. Bob Dancer did not endorse
the product for anyone but a casual or newbie poker player or casino visitor.Bill->proper strategy would be to do as you say, if you get Aces with a kicker and get
2000 credits, cash out immediately and forfeit any remaining hands. Even if it the very
first hand of the session. What's wrong with that?Harry-> your analogy to Insurance on BJ does not hold. with a 6 deck shoe the house
edge is 7.395%. With GP Video Poker, the player forfeits about one percent (on average)
than standard play. The Poker pay table is the same for GP vs. standard play. So it is not a
'stupid' bet, or not as stupid as some other bets in the casino. Just ask the player who hit
a royal or jackpot after 300 hands at $1.25 per hand. They did not have the bankroll to
pay for that many hands of standard play and feel they would never had got that jackpot.A recent industry survey determined that there were 90 million Americans who gamble
(lottery, poker games, office pools, etc.) that do not visit casinos. they have no 'religious'
objection to gaming but do not come to casinos. why is this?i believe that many of this group of 90 million do not come to casinos because they have
no idea how long their entertainment budget (money and time) will last at a casino. I have
talked to hundreds of gamblers who are not casino visitors and I have heard the same
story, to paraphrase, 'i went once to a casino and put $20, $40 or $100 in the machine
and 5 minutes later is was all gone, casinos are stupid and for suckers, I'm never going
back'. How to casinos get these folk back to the gaming floor.Again, this is NOT about the 'game', it is NOT about video poker. GP is an OPTION on IGT
Game King poker machines, also on some felt BJ tables and soon to come on Wolf Run.
Eventually, GP will be on many machines and table. GP is a new payment method. You can
buy your hands one at a time (for sophisticated gamblers) or buy a session of Video Poker,
Slot or Table play (for entertainment gamblers). If you are reading this forum, if you know
who bob dancer is, if you can manage a bankroll, GP is NOT for you.It is not a Video Poker innovation. It is a value product (across the slot floor and table pit)
that is attempt to grow the entire casino market. It will take time and some new features to
work, but IGT has the resources to stick to it. Casinos that offer GP now will learn how to
market this new product to grow their casino and use GP to create property packages that
combine gaming with dining, hotel, spa, shows, etc. and successfully grab a portion of
those 90 million gamblers.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
>
> I'm going to agree with Harry up to a point but I think the analysis
> can go further. When the machines originally came out I was sure (and
> will tell you the name of the Slot Director I won my bet with if you
> doubt this) that they would fail because they completely missed the
> psychology of players. Like Harry, I thought there might be a small
> niche for destination resorts to have a few machines for non-gamblers.
>
> Your new paradigm has more chance and should get a bit more play but
> video poker players do not primarily look for time on machine. They
> want the rush that comes from getting 2000 credits for Aces w/kicker.
> But even with the zero floor most of the session will be spent with
> the meter at 0. And if they do get a quad they will see a fixed
> number of hands remaining and may feel it's in their best interests
> to cash out and void the rest of the hands. Then do they put in
> another 20 or 100 or just walk.
>
> IT DOES NOT FIT THE PSYCHOLOGY OF VP PLAYERS! (Bob, I hope you're
> reading this and don't repeat your mistake supporting the original
> version). And, no offense intended, if I am right that even the new
> version will fail it will confirm IGT's decline in innovation.
> Although I wonder if the Fertitas will repeat their mistake.
>
> Bill
>
> At 08:09 AM 9/22/2008, you wrote:
> >disclaimer-> i am one of the product managers that developed
> >Guaranteed Play, GP.
> >
> >First, GP is not for everyone, certainly not for advantage video
> >poker player. If you can play expert strategy and have excellent
> >bankroll management skills, GP is not for you.
> >
> >GP is for new and existing casino patrons who are looking for
> >time on device, aka entertainment, a place to spend their leisure
> >time and budget. Again, not for an advantage player or someone
> >trying to accumulate player points.
> >
> >This said, GP is not an unfair to players or heavily taxed game.
> >GP payback percentages come extremely close to payback
> >percentages from standard play. Yes the GP player pays a very
> >small penalty in return for the Guarantee, but this is almost
> >always less than 1%. The session price, the number of hands and
> >the pay tables were all selected so that GP would approach
> >standard play profit to the player. The GP pay table is always
> >the same as the standard play pay table on the machine.
> >
> >If you have $20, $40 or $100 as a budget for your entertainment,
> >how long will that last you in the casino? Is it worth the 15
> >minute, 1 hour or 2 hour drive to the casino to find out? How
> >long does your $10 last at a movie theater--it lasts 90 minutes.
> >You are not told to leave halfway through the picture if you run
> >out of money. You're not guaranteed a good movie, but a full 90
> >minutes. With GP, you know that you are guaranteed a lot of
> >entertainment time on device, plus multiple changes at a full pay
> >royal or other jackpot.
> >
> >In the next couple of weeks, a new and improved version of GP
> >Video Poker will be released on a large scale. More poker themes,
> >more denoms and most importantly a new feature called Zero Credit
> >Floor. All GP Video Poker will be updated so the session balance
> >never goes below zero. For example if you lose 99 hands in a row
> >(perhaps this only happens to me?), your session balance is at
> >zero credits. If on the 100th hand you hit a royal you get all
> >4000 credits and you can cash all 4000 out if you want to end
> >your session. This simplifies player strategy for GP, but
> >remember that GP is not for advantage players.
> >
> >A new GP website should be introduced in the next few weeks as
> >well. It will have demo version of the new Zero Credit Floor
> >Features and explanations of rules of play and the math behind GP
> >to determine player pay back.
>------------------------------------
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
I'm a regular player and play the GP's.
In the last three weeks I have hit 2 royals.
Investment probably half of the winnings.
One time I put in just $20.00 and hit one.
The other time had to grind it out.
You have to play multiply times in a row and hope but what else is new.
Stanley