vpFREE2 Forums

(Fwd) Resorts East Chicago Inventory

Exactly! I have not clocked the meters yet. If someone does, please let us
know. Note that since that total ER changes when each is hit, you must have
the discipline to quit when the game is not positive. This morning the
total meters added almost 1.4% making this game positive. Harrah's Joliet
made a mistake several years ago with a similar game in Joliet. The meters
were at 0.5% each playing the Bally Gamemaker version of 9-6-5 DB
(aces=200, SF=80) Reset ER =99.046%. I remember a 2 hr period where this
game was almost 107% but I hit no progressives during that period but 4
regular quads let me net a $30 win. It took Harrah's about two months to
wake up and change the feeds to 0.1% each.

[Original Message]
From: Chandler <omnibibulous1@comcast.net>
To: <vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 6/4/2005 8:18:16 PM
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago Inventory

I don't think he's talking about meter rate. I think what Howard has done
is created a way to determine ER including the quad royals, by

determining a

···

value at which each quad meter increases total ER.

Chandler

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of vp_nbi
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 8:02 PM
To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago Inventory

Thanks. Just out of curiosity how did you know the quads were metered
at .1% ? Did someone actually determine this or is .1% some sort of
standard for progressives featuring metered quads? It would be nice if
this info was on vpFree somewhere. I wonder how often the quad
jackpots rise to a level where they have a significant impact on the
game's overall return.

— In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stern"
<howard.w.stern@e…> wrote:
> Playing standard strategy for 9-6 DDB twos, threes or fours no low hit
> every 2601 hands so every $13.01 on that meter is 0.1%.
> twos, threes or fours with low every 6983 hands so every $34.92 on that
> meter is 0.1%
> four aces no low every 5761 hands so $28.81 is 0.1%
> four aces with low every 16,235 hands so $81.18 is 0.1%
> The two strategy changes likely to lower this occur when the royal
is over
> about $5,500 in that AT suited is better than A and AKQs, AKJs and AQJs,
> are better than AA. The 3RFs that include a ten need to be slightly
higher
> to make this change. I might check this play out tomorrow but I have
$55 in
> coupons for MS and Trump. (The last rating period was awful for me
at MS.)
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: vp_nbi <nbi@w…>
> > To: <vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: 6/4/2005 11:06:09 AM
> > Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago Inventory
> >
> > — In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler" <omnibibulous1@c…>
> > wrote:
> > > Remember the prog is DDB. It is upstairs along one wall of the
> > table games
> > > area. I recently talked to a EC regular who says they have been 9/6
> > for a
> > > while , but I remember them as 9/5. My memory often fools me,
but it is
> > > definitely 9/6 now.
> >
> > Thanks. I'll definitely check this out. Does anyone know what the
> > impact of metered quads is on the game's return? Running some paytable
> > calculations with frugal I discovered that the game becomes JOB like
> > in return at around 5100 coins (99.57 to be precise). That's
> > discounting any quad pays above baseline so it seems the game could be
> > playable below 5100 coins. As I'm unfamiliar with metered quads I have
> > no frame of reference for even attempting a guess as to their impact.
> > They could be metered in many different ways, unequal rates, partially
> > pegged to the jackpot, etc. Another question would be how often the
> > jackpot actually rises to 5100 coins. I know the Don & Mikes $1 bartop
> > rarely gets that high although it was $4900 the other day.
> >
> > >
> > > Chandler
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of vp_nbi
> > > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 3:08 PM
> > > To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago Inventory
> > >
> > >
> > > — In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE" <vpFREE@C…> wrote:
> > > > Private email to vpFREE Administrator:
> > > >
> > > > ------- Forwarded message follows -------
> > > >
> > > > There have been some changes for the better. You now cannot
throw a
> > > > rock without hitting some FPJB. Single play quarter and dollar
> > > > machines upstairs near the table games and in the lower level
vp area.
> > > > There is also $JB in the bartops at the flair bar. Most of the
> > > > multigames that have the JB also contain 9/7 DB, 8/5 BP and
9/6 DDB.
> > > > So there is an awful lot of 99% and above inventory. I did
not spot
> > > > any new NSUD.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, multiplay and $5 inventory is still bad.
> > > >
> > > > The bank of uprights that contained the JB, NSUD and TB+ remain.
> > > >
> > > > The $ DDB prog with meters on royal and all the quads, previously
> > short
> > > > pay, is now 9/6.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your report. Where is the $1 progressive located? On my
> > > last visit I must have spaced out and walked right past it as I was
> > > intently looking for some positive Spin-Poker.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I was not familiar with some of the more exotic paytable.
I'll take
> > > > notes next visit. There may be something else playable there.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

I did not know you could figure this out just using the frequency of the
hand. Usually when I see those quads on a progressive I just scratch my
head and guess. I think I see how you did it and can replicate it, but if
you have a little time in the future maybe you could walk me through it with
an explanation... Quad progressive calculation for dummies:-) I don't play
many multiple prog games, but this skill could come in handy some day.

Incidentally, should I assume that these quad progressives accrue ( on the
meter) at the same rate or will one need to clock them separately? This is
probably speculative as I'm off to Tunica soon and unlikely to put my
bankroll in a head on collision with $ DDB.

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of Howard Stern
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:19 PM
To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago Inventory

Exactly! I have not clocked the meters yet. If someone does, please let us
know. Note that since that total ER changes when each is hit, you must have
the discipline to quit when the game is not positive. This morning the
total meters added almost 1.4% making this game positive. Harrah's Joliet
made a mistake several years ago with a similar game in Joliet. The meters
were at 0.5% each playing the Bally Gamemaker version of 9-6-5 DB
(aces=200, SF=80) Reset ER =99.046%. I remember a 2 hr period where this
game was almost 107% but I hit no progressives during that period but 4
regular quads let me net a $30 win. It took Harrah's about two months to
wake up and change the feeds to 0.1% each.

[Original Message]
From: Chandler <omnibibulous1@comcast.net>
To: <vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 6/4/2005 8:18:16 PM
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago Inventory

I don't think he's talking about meter rate. I think what Howard has done
is created a way to determine ER including the quad royals, by

determining a

value at which each quad meter increases total ER.

Chandler

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of vp_nbi
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 8:02 PM
To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago Inventory

Thanks. Just out of curiosity how did you know the quads were metered
at .1% ? Did someone actually determine this or is .1% some sort of
standard for progressives featuring metered quads? It would be nice if
this info was on vpFree somewhere. I wonder how often the quad
jackpots rise to a level where they have a significant impact on the
game's overall return.

— In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stern"
<howard.w.stern@e…> wrote:
> Playing standard strategy for 9-6 DDB twos, threes or fours no low hit
> every 2601 hands so every $13.01 on that meter is 0.1%.
> twos, threes or fours with low every 6983 hands so every $34.92 on that
> meter is 0.1%
> four aces no low every 5761 hands so $28.81 is 0.1%
> four aces with low every 16,235 hands so $81.18 is 0.1%
> The two strategy changes likely to lower this occur when the royal
is over
> about $5,500 in that AT suited is better than A and AKQs, AKJs and AQJs,
> are better than AA. The 3RFs that include a ten need to be slightly
higher
> to make this change. I might check this play out tomorrow but I have
$55 in
> coupons for MS and Trump. (The last rating period was awful for me
at MS.)
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: vp_nbi <nbi@w…>
> > To: <vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: 6/4/2005 11:06:09 AM
> > Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago Inventory
> >
> > — In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler" <omnibibulous1@c…>
> > wrote:
> > > Remember the prog is DDB. It is upstairs along one wall of the
> > table games
> > > area. I recently talked to a EC regular who says they have been 9/6
> > for a
> > > while , but I remember them as 9/5. My memory often fools me,
but it is
> > > definitely 9/6 now.
> >
> > Thanks. I'll definitely check this out. Does anyone know what the
> > impact of metered quads is on the game's return? Running some paytable
> > calculations with frugal I discovered that the game becomes JOB like
> > in return at around 5100 coins (99.57 to be precise). That's
> > discounting any quad pays above baseline so it seems the game could be
> > playable below 5100 coins. As I'm unfamiliar with metered quads I have
> > no frame of reference for even attempting a guess as to their impact.
> > They could be metered in many different ways, unequal rates, partially
> > pegged to the jackpot, etc. Another question would be how often the
> > jackpot actually rises to 5100 coins. I know the Don & Mikes $1 bartop
> > rarely gets that high although it was $4900 the other day.
> >
> > >
> > > Chandler
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of vp_nbi
> > > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 3:08 PM
> > > To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago Inventory
> > >
> > >
> > > — In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE" <vpFREE@C…> wrote:
> > > > Private email to vpFREE Administrator:
> > > >
> > > > ------- Forwarded message follows -------
> > > >
> > > > There have been some changes for the better. You now cannot
throw a
> > > > rock without hitting some FPJB. Single play quarter and dollar
> > > > machines upstairs near the table games and in the lower level
vp area.
> > > > There is also $JB in the bartops at the flair bar. Most of the
> > > > multigames that have the JB also contain 9/7 DB, 8/5 BP and
9/6 DDB.
> > > > So there is an awful lot of 99% and above inventory. I did
not spot
> > > > any new NSUD.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, multiplay and $5 inventory is still bad.
> > > >
> > > > The bank of uprights that contained the JB, NSUD and TB+ remain.
> > > >
> > > > The $ DDB prog with meters on royal and all the quads, previously
> > short
> > > > pay, is now 9/6.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your report. Where is the $1 progressive located? On my
> > > last visit I must have spaced out and walked right past it as I was
> > > intently looking for some positive Spin-Poker.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I was not familiar with some of the more exotic paytable.
I'll take
> > > > notes next visit. There may be something else playable there.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

I'm not sure I have read all the postings on this topic, but I
couldn't resist kicking the horse one more time....

Meter feed rate is sort of a moot point, all it will tell you is the
likelihood of the game being postive, not that the game is positive.
In other words if the game has a great feed rate, but, the
progressives have just hit...well you are back to 99%...but the game
will turn postive quicker with a good feed rate...even games with
lousy feed rates turn postive now and then. I would say a bigger
factor is that with $1 ddb many people play this game short coined,
going for the $800 aces w/ kicker so in general there is a good
chance for positive play. This would also apply for quad progressives.

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler"
<omnibibulous1@c...> wrote:

I did not know you could figure this out just using the frequency

of the

hand. Usually when I see those quads on a progressive I just

scratch my

head and guess. I think I see how you did it and can replicate it,

but if

you have a little time in the future maybe you could walk me

through it with

an explanation... Quad progressive calculation for dummies:-) I

don't play

many multiple prog games, but this skill could come in handy some

day.

Incidentally, should I assume that these quad progressives accrue (

on the

meter) at the same rate or will one need to clock them separately?

This is

probably speculative as I'm off to Tunica soon and unlikely to put

my

bankroll in a head on collision with $ DDB.

Chandler

From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of Howard Stern
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:19 PM
To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago

Inventory

Exactly! I have not clocked the meters yet. If someone does, please

let us

know. Note that since that total ER changes when each is hit, you

must have

the discipline to quit when the game is not positive. This morning

the

total meters added almost 1.4% making this game positive. Harrah's

Joliet

made a mistake several years ago with a similar game in Joliet. The

meters

were at 0.5% each playing the Bally Gamemaker version of 9-6-5 DB
(aces=200, SF=80) Reset ER =99.046%. I remember a 2 hr period where

this

game was almost 107% but I hit no progressives during that period

but 4

regular quads let me net a $30 win. It took Harrah's about two

months to

wake up and change the feeds to 0.1% each.

> [Original Message]
> From: Chandler <omnibibulous1@c...>
> To: <vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 6/4/2005 8:18:16 PM
> Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago

Inventory

>
> I don't think he's talking about meter rate. I think what Howard

has done

> is created a way to determine ER including the quad royals, by
determining a
> value at which each quad meter increases total ER.
>
> Chandler
>
> From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of vp_nbi
> Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 8:02 PM
> To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago Inventory
>
>
> Thanks. Just out of curiosity how did you know the quads were

metered

> at .1% ? Did someone actually determine this or is .1% some sort

of

> standard for progressives featuring metered quads? It would be

nice if

> this info was on vpFree somewhere. I wonder how often the quad
> jackpots rise to a level where they have a significant impact on

the

> game's overall return.
>
> --- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stern"
> <howard.w.stern@e...> wrote:
> > Playing standard strategy for 9-6 DDB twos, threes or fours no

low hit

> > every 2601 hands so every $13.01 on that meter is 0.1%.
> > twos, threes or fours with low every 6983 hands so every

$34.92 on that

> > meter is 0.1%
> > four aces no low every 5761 hands so $28.81 is 0.1%
> > four aces with low every 16,235 hands so $81.18 is 0.1%
> > The two strategy changes likely to lower this occur when the

royal

> is over
> > about $5,500 in that AT suited is better than A and AKQs, AKJs

and AQJs,

> > are better than AA. The 3RFs that include a ten need to be

slightly

> higher
> > to make this change. I might check this play out tomorrow but I

have

> $55 in
> > coupons for MS and Trump. (The last rating period was awful for

me

> at MS.)
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: vp_nbi <nbi@w...>
> > > To: <vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: 6/4/2005 11:06:09 AM
> > > Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago

Inventory

> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler"

<omnibibulous1@c...>

> > > wrote:
> > > > Remember the prog is DDB. It is upstairs along one wall of

the

> > > table games
> > > > area. I recently talked to a EC regular who says they have

been 9/6

> > > for a
> > > > while , but I remember them as 9/5. My memory often fools

me,

> but it is
> > > > definitely 9/6 now.
> > >
> > > Thanks. I'll definitely check this out. Does anyone know what

the

> > > impact of metered quads is on the game's return? Running some

paytable

> > > calculations with frugal I discovered that the game becomes

JOB like

> > > in return at around 5100 coins (99.57 to be precise). That's
> > > discounting any quad pays above baseline so it seems the game

could be

> > > playable below 5100 coins. As I'm unfamiliar with metered

quads I have

> > > no frame of reference for even attempting a guess as to their

impact.

> > > They could be metered in many different ways, unequal rates,

partially

> > > pegged to the jackpot, etc. Another question would be how

often the

> > > jackpot actually rises to 5100 coins. I know the Don & Mikes

$1 bartop

> > > rarely gets that high although it was $4900 the other day.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Chandler
> > > >
> > > > From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
> > > > [mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of vp_nbi
> > > > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 3:08 PM
> > > > To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago

Inventory

> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE"

<vpFREE@C...> wrote:

> > > > > Private email to vpFREE Administrator:
> > > > >
> > > > > ------- Forwarded message follows -------
> > > > >
> > > > > There have been some changes for the better. You now

cannot

> throw a
> > > > > rock without hitting some FPJB. Single play quarter and

dollar

> > > > > machines upstairs near the table games and in the lower

level

> vp area.
> > > > > There is also $JB in the bartops at the flair bar. Most

of the

> > > > > multigames that have the JB also contain 9/7 DB, 8/5 BP

and

> 9/6 DDB.
> > > > > So there is an awful lot of 99% and above inventory. I

did

> not spot
> > > > > any new NSUD.
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately, multiplay and $5 inventory is still bad.
> > > > >
> > > > > The bank of uprights that contained the JB, NSUD and TB+

remain.

> > > > >
> > > > > The $ DDB prog with meters on royal and all the quads,

previously

> > > short
> > > > > pay, is now 9/6.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your report. Where is the $1 progressive

located? On my

> > > > last visit I must have spaced out and walked right past it

as I was

> > > > intently looking for some positive Spin-Poker.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I was not familiar with some of the more exotic paytable.
> I'll take
> > > > > notes next visit. There may be something else playable

there.

···

-----Original Message-----
> -----Original Message-----
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

As a rule of thumb to figure out if a progressive has turned
positive, you need to multiply the contribution to game return by the
% increase in progressive. e.g. for ddb approx 2% of return is in the
royal hence a 50% increase $4,000 to $6,000 will give the magic 1% to
turn the game positive. For quads the return for all the good quads
everything but 5-king, the contribution to game return is in the 2-3%
range, so if any one of the quads is 50%+ over base go for it.

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler"
<omnibibulous1@c...> wrote:

I did not know you could figure this out just using the frequency

of the

hand. Usually when I see those quads on a progressive I just

scratch my

head and guess. I think I see how you did it and can replicate it,

but if

you have a little time in the future maybe you could walk me

through it with

an explanation... Quad progressive calculation for dummies:-) I

don't play

many multiple prog games, but this skill could come in handy some

day.

Incidentally, should I assume that these quad progressives accrue (

on the

meter) at the same rate or will one need to clock them separately?

This is

probably speculative as I'm off to Tunica soon and unlikely to put

my

···

bankroll in a head on collision with $ DDB.

Chandler

Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118"
<jaydavidson118@y...> wrote:

As a rule of thumb to figure out if a progressive has turned
positive, you need to multiply the contribution to game return by the
% increase in progressive. e.g. for ddb approx 2% of return is in the
royal hence a 50% increase $4,000 to $6,000 will give the magic 1% to
turn the game positive.

True.

For quads the return for all the good quads
everything but 5-king, the contribution to game return is in the 2-3%
range, so if any one of the quads is 50%+ over base go for it.

This however is not automatic. To verify simply run some numbers
through Frugal. For example, deuces w/o kicker at 600 results in a
boost of .5% to 99.5%, still a negative play but close to the JOB
99.54%. I guess you're assuming the contributions of the other quads
will boost the return to positive play territory. Not an unreasonable
assumption I suppose, but the most frequently occuring scenario will
be RF<6000 with none of the good quads at 50%+, thus requiring some
calculation. I guess it would be easy enough to print a table of the
meter combinations yielding a positive play.

As Howard correctly points out, having the discipline to put on the
brakes when it becomes negative is imperative to success. Incidentally
Bob Dancer wrote an interesting article about how he plays progressives.

I must confess this progressive has me intrigued as it has good
potential for frequently being positive. Definitely will be paying it
a visit this week.

···

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler"
<omnibibulous1@c...> wrote:
> I did not know you could figure this out just using the frequency
of the
> hand. Usually when I see those quads on a progressive I just
scratch my
> head and guess. I think I see how you did it and can replicate it,
but if
> you have a little time in the future maybe you could walk me
through it with
> an explanation... Quad progressive calculation for dummies:-) I
don't play
> many multiple prog games, but this skill could come in handy some
day.
>
> Incidentally, should I assume that these quad progressives accrue (
on the
> meter) at the same rate or will one need to clock them separately?
This is
> probably speculative as I'm off to Tunica soon and unlikely to put
my
> bankroll in a head on collision with $ DDB.
>
> Chandler
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links

>For quads the return for all the good quads
> everything but 5-king, the contribution to game return is in the

2-3%

> range, so if any one of the quads is 50%+ over base go for it.

This however is not automatic. To verify simply run some numbers
through Frugal. For example, deuces w/o kicker at 600 results in a
boost of .5% to 99.5%, still a negative play but close to the JOB
99.54%. I guess you're assuming the contributions of the other quads
will boost the return to positive play territory. Not an

unreasonable

assumption I suppose, but the most frequently occuring scenario will
be RF<6000 with none of the good quads at 50%+, thus requiring some
calculation. I guess it would be easy enough to print a table of the
meter combinations yielding a positive play.

I'm surprised by the magnitude of the shortfall in my approx. in your
example...(check below)but we are both correct. When you enter the
new progressive numbers you are basically creating a "whole new game"
and hence the software creates a whole new optimal strategy and
contribution to return calc. What I did was look at dancer's software
at the original game and original contribution to return i.e. 2-3%.

I put 600 into dancer's model for 2,3,4s no kicker and got ev of
100.5% which is exactly what my approx. predicts 3% return for 2,3,4s
in original game 50% increase for 1.5% + 90% = 100.5%

I find it hard to believe that frugal and dancer would have such a
large descrepancy

As Howard correctly points out, having the discipline to put on the
brakes when it becomes negative is imperative to success.

Yes, this is the key to success at progressives.

Incidentally
Bob Dancer wrote an interesting article about how he plays

progressives.

Don't forget having a significant number of short coin players is
critically important for two reasons 1. they contribute to
progressive with zero chance or winning the prog. plus they take up
machine space that reduce the number of competitors fot the
progressive win, and Dancer never even mentions this key point...I
guess I'm not a Dancer fan!

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118"
<jaydavidson118@y...> wrote:

>
> >For quads the return for all the good quads
> > everything but 5-king, the contribution to game return is in the
2-3%
> > range, so if any one of the quads is 50%+ over base go for it.
>
> This however is not automatic. To verify simply run some numbers
> through Frugal. For example, deuces w/o kicker at 600 results in a
> boost of .5% to 99.5%, still a negative play but close to the JOB
> 99.54%. I guess you're assuming the contributions of the other quads
> will boost the return to positive play territory. Not an
unreasonable
> assumption I suppose, but the most frequently occuring scenario will
> be RF<6000 with none of the good quads at 50%+, thus requiring some
> calculation. I guess it would be easy enough to print a table of the
> meter combinations yielding a positive play.
>

I'm surprised by the magnitude of the shortfall in my approx. in your
example...(check below)but we are both correct. When you enter the
new progressive numbers you are basically creating a "whole new game"
and hence the software creates a whole new optimal strategy and
contribution to return calc. What I did was look at dancer's software
at the original game and original contribution to return i.e. 2-3%.

I put 600 into dancer's model for 2,3,4s no kicker and got ev of
100.5% which is exactly what my approx. predicts 3% return for 2,3,4s
in original game 50% increase for 1.5% + 90% = 100.5%

I find it hard to believe that frugal and dancer would have such a
large descrepancy

I repeated this experiment with both Frugal and WinPoker and the
results are the same. Something is seriously f*cked up. And that's a
nice way of putting it as a lot of folks could already have lost a lot
of money on account of flawed software. I'm going to post a query on
vpFree to try getting to the bottom of this.

> As Howard correctly points out, having the discipline to put on the
> brakes when it becomes negative is imperative to success.

Yes, this is the key to success at progressives.

>Incidentally
> Bob Dancer wrote an interesting article about how he plays
progressives.
>

Don't forget having a significant number of short coin players is
critically important for two reasons 1. they contribute to
progressive with zero chance or winning the prog. plus they take up
machine space that reduce the number of competitors fot the
progressive win, and Dancer never even mentions this key point...I
guess I'm not a Dancer fan!

I didn't say I was a Dancer fan neither, but the article is very
revealing though.

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118"
<jaydavidson118@y...> wrote:
> >
> > >For quads the return for all the good quads
> > > everything but 5-king, the contribution to game return is in the
> 2-3%
> > > range, so if any one of the quads is 50%+ over base go for it.
> >
> > This however is not automatic. To verify simply run some numbers
> > through Frugal. For example, deuces w/o kicker at 600 results in a
> > boost of .5% to 99.5%, still a negative play but close to the JOB
> > 99.54%. I guess you're assuming the contributions of the other quads
> > will boost the return to positive play territory. Not an
> unreasonable
> > assumption I suppose, but the most frequently occuring scenario will
> > be RF<6000 with none of the good quads at 50%+, thus requiring some
> > calculation. I guess it would be easy enough to print a table of the
> > meter combinations yielding a positive play.
> >
>
> I'm surprised by the magnitude of the shortfall in my approx. in your
> example...(check below)but we are both correct. When you enter the
> new progressive numbers you are basically creating a "whole new game"
> and hence the software creates a whole new optimal strategy and
> contribution to return calc. What I did was look at dancer's software
> at the original game and original contribution to return i.e. 2-3%.
>
> I put 600 into dancer's model for 2,3,4s no kicker and got ev of
> 100.5% which is exactly what my approx. predicts 3% return for 2,3,4s
> in original game 50% increase for 1.5% + 90% = 100.5%
>
> I find it hard to believe that frugal and dancer would have such a
> large descrepancy

I repeated this experiment with both Frugal and WinPoker and the
results are the same. Something is seriously f*cked up. And that's a
nice way of putting it as a lot of folks could already have lost a lot
of money on account of flawed software. I'm going to post a query on
vpFree to try getting to the bottom of this.

Fortunately I decided to check, check, recheck, and check again what
is going on with these programs. Turns out there's an amusingly simple
explanation. WinPoker's interface does not allow you to specify
individual values for quads within one category, i.e. for 2-3-4 w/o
kicker when you specify 600 you're specifying 600 for each of the
2-3-4 quads. In Frugal you must specify the values for each quad
individually. Since I was only interested in the contribution of one
quad I only changed the 4 deuces w/o kicker value (should I be
surprised that nobody else caught this? :-)). When I updated the 3-4
quad values to 600 and reran the analysis the final result did in fact
agree with WinPoker. False alarm.

I do consider this a shortcoming in WinPoker. More control is good not
bad, as it is useful to see what the contribution of an individual
quad is.

···

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "vp_nbi" <nbi@w...> wrote:

>
> > As Howard correctly points out, having the discipline to put on the
> > brakes when it becomes negative is imperative to success.
>
> Yes, this is the key to success at progressives.
>
> >Incidentally
> > Bob Dancer wrote an interesting article about how he plays
> progressives.
> >
>
> Don't forget having a significant number of short coin players is
> critically important for two reasons 1. they contribute to
> progressive with zero chance or winning the prog. plus they take up
> machine space that reduce the number of competitors fot the
> progressive win, and Dancer never even mentions this key point...I
> guess I'm not a Dancer fan!

I didn't say I was a Dancer fan neither, but the article is very
revealing though.

Fortunately I decided to check, check, recheck, and check again what
is going on with these programs. Turns out there's an amusingly

simple

explanation. WinPoker's interface does not allow you to specify
individual values for quads within one category, i.e. for 2-3-4 w/o
kicker when you specify 600 you're specifying 600 for each of the
2-3-4 quads.

The progressive lumps 2,3,4s together.

In Frugal you must specify the values for each quad
individually. Since I was only interested in the contribution of one
quad I only changed the 4 deuces w/o kicker value (should I be
surprised that nobody else caught this? :-)). When I updated the 3-4
quad values to 600 and reran the analysis the final result did in

fact

agree with WinPoker. False alarm.

I do consider this a shortcoming in WinPoker. More control is good

not

bad, as it is useful to see what the contribution of an individual
quad is.

Good catch, see I knew we were both right! Although I believe the
progressive meter groups the 2,3,4s together...so maybe I was a
little more correct?

···

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "vp_nbi" <nbi@w...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118"
<jaydavidson118@y...> wrote:

>
> Fortunately I decided to check, check, recheck, and check again what
> is going on with these programs. Turns out there's an amusingly
simple
> explanation. WinPoker's interface does not allow you to specify
> individual values for quads within one category, i.e. for 2-3-4 w/o
> kicker when you specify 600 you're specifying 600 for each of the
> 2-3-4 quads.

The progressive lumps 2,3,4s together.

>In Frugal you must specify the values for each quad
> individually. Since I was only interested in the contribution of one
> quad I only changed the 4 deuces w/o kicker value (should I be
> surprised that nobody else caught this? :-)). When I updated the 3-4
> quad values to 600 and reran the analysis the final result did in
fact
> agree with WinPoker. False alarm.
>
> I do consider this a shortcoming in WinPoker. More control is good
not
> bad, as it is useful to see what the contribution of an individual
> quad is.

Good catch, see I knew we were both right! Although I believe the
progressive meter groups the 2,3,4s together...so maybe I was a
little more correct?

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the paytable entries
are equal in number to the non-progressive version, but the values are
metered if RF or the quads, i.e. they're lumped together as with
normal non-progressive play. This is both good news and bad. The bad
is that this game doesn't nearly have the positive potential I
originally thought, the good is that it is relatively straightforward
to come up with rules of thumb for when to play. Still worth taking a
look.

···

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "vp_nbi" <nbi@w...> wrote:

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying in the first sentence above.

If by adding quads it's just a matter of spreading the same total
percentage feed into more buckets then there is no difference, just a
matter of taste as to how you like your returns, so to speak...but my
sense is that it is a real addition, small as it may be. I would say
the real difference is that it gives the aces w/ kicker progressive a
secondary role in making the game positive for a long enough period of
time to make it actionable, however the feed rate on the other quads is
probably more critical in that you may have multiple hits on these in
any given day, but, the actual decision rule for the game positive or
negative will be based on rf and aces w/ kicker progressives.

···

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "vp_nbi" <nbi@w...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118"
<jaydavidson118@y...> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "vp_nbi" <nbi@w...> wrote:

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the paytable entries
are equal in number to the non-progressive version, but the values are
metered if RF or the quads, i.e. they're lumped together as with
normal non-progressive play. This is both good news and bad. The bad
is that this game doesn't nearly have the positive potential I
originally thought, the good is that it is relatively straightforward
to come up with rules of thumb for when to play. Still worth taking a
look.

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118"
<jaydavidson118@y...> wrote:

···

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "vp_nbi" <nbi@w...> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118"
> <jaydavidson118@y...> wrote:
> > --- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "vp_nbi" <nbi@w...> wrote:
>
> I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the paytable entries
> are equal in number to the non-progressive version, but the values are
> metered if RF or the quads, i.e. they're lumped together as with
> normal non-progressive play. This is both good news and bad. The bad
> is that this game doesn't nearly have the positive potential I
> originally thought, the good is that it is relatively straightforward
> to come up with rules of thumb for when to play. Still worth taking a
> look.

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying in the first sentence above.

If by adding quads it's just a matter of spreading the same total
percentage feed into more buckets then there is no difference, just a
matter of taste as to how you like your returns, so to speak...but my
sense is that it is a real addition, small as it may be. I would say
the real difference is that it gives the aces w/ kicker progressive a
secondary role in making the game positive for a long enough period of
time to make it actionable, however the feed rate on the other quads is
probably more critical in that you may have multiple hits on these in
any given day, but, the actual decision rule for the game positive or
negative will be based on rf and aces w/ kicker progressives.

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118"
<jaydavidson118@y...> wrote:

> --- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118"
> <jaydavidson118@y...> wrote:
>
> I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the paytable entries
> are equal in number to the non-progressive version, but the values are
> metered if RF or the quads, i.e. they're lumped together as with
> normal non-progressive play. This is both good news and bad. The bad
> is that this game doesn't nearly have the positive potential I
> originally thought, the good is that it is relatively straightforward
> to come up with rules of thumb for when to play. Still worth taking a
> look.

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying in the first sentence above.

If by adding quads it's just a matter of spreading the same total
percentage feed into more buckets then there is no difference, just a
matter of taste as to how you like your returns, so to speak...but my
sense is that it is a real addition, small as it may be. I would say
the real difference is that it gives the aces w/ kicker progressive a
secondary role in making the game positive for a long enough period of
time to make it actionable, however the feed rate on the other quads is
probably more critical in that you may have multiple hits on these in
any given day, but, the actual decision rule for the game positive or
negative will be based on rf and aces w/ kicker progressives.

I took a closer look at this progressive with WinPoker. The decision
on whether or not to play can be based on the RF and all the quads
with the exception of 5-K which has too high a frequency. You need to
be careful on the game return precision. For a 4000 coin RF a 533 coin
2-3-4 quad will yield 100%. This amounts to 33.25% over base, not the
suggested 50% which would produce 600 coins. If one calculates the
neccessary quad meter values for several RF data points while forcing
the game return precision to be in the neighborhood of 100.00 a linear
equation of the form "y = ax + b" can be derived for each quad. Having
done that the equations can be inserted into an Excel or OpenOffice
spreadsheet to calculate the neccessary quad meter values yielding a
100% game for any RF in the range of 4000 to 6000. This of course
assumes at least one of the quads is high enough to yield 100%. If
none of the quads are at a high enough level a usable rule of thumb
could be nontrivial to derive. Dancer claims to have derived a
sophisticated progressive strategy which he indicates is "not for
sale". That seems like a pretty good indicator that there's a lot of
work involved.

···

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "vp_nbi" <nbi@w...> wrote:
> > --- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "vp_nbi" <nbi@w...> wrote:

I don't think I totally discount the value of some short coin players but
IMO primary importance is feed rate. High feed rate = more total hours of
positive vp. Take the $MS bartop prog for example. There are plenty of
high variance games for the short coiners to take pot shots at, but because
the feed rate is slow it rarely gets more than 1% over base. Don't know if
you've been around long enough to remember the old $ BP bartop prog at MS,
but it was a beautiful thing. The feed rate was fast and it could go
positive twice a week. I played it at over 10K a few times and I didn't get
out to the boats that often. Never did hit the damned thing, but it was
fun.

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of jaydavidson118
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 11:33 PM
To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago Inventory

I'm not sure I have read all the postings on this topic, but I
couldn't resist kicking the horse one more time....

Meter feed rate is sort of a moot point, all it will tell you is the
likelihood of the game being postive, not that the game is positive.
In other words if the game has a great feed rate, but, the
progressives have just hit...well you are back to 99%...but the game
will turn postive quicker with a good feed rate...even games with
lousy feed rates turn postive now and then. I would say a bigger
factor is that with $1 ddb many people play this game short coined,
going for the $800 aces w/ kicker so in general there is a good
chance for positive play. This would also apply for quad progressives.

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler"
<omnibibulous1@c...> wrote:

I did not know you could figure this out just using the frequency

of the

hand. Usually when I see those quads on a progressive I just

scratch my

head and guess. I think I see how you did it and can replicate it,

but if

you have a little time in the future maybe you could walk me

through it with

an explanation... Quad progressive calculation for dummies:-) I

don't play

many multiple prog games, but this skill could come in handy some

day.

Incidentally, should I assume that these quad progressives accrue (

on the

meter) at the same rate or will one need to clock them separately?

This is

probably speculative as I'm off to Tunica soon and unlikely to put

my

bankroll in a head on collision with $ DDB.

Chandler

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of Howard Stern
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:19 PM
To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago

Inventory

Exactly! I have not clocked the meters yet. If someone does, please

let us

know. Note that since that total ER changes when each is hit, you

must have

the discipline to quit when the game is not positive. This morning

the

total meters added almost 1.4% making this game positive. Harrah's

Joliet

made a mistake several years ago with a similar game in Joliet. The

meters

were at 0.5% each playing the Bally Gamemaker version of 9-6-5 DB
(aces=200, SF=80) Reset ER =99.046%. I remember a 2 hr period where

this

game was almost 107% but I hit no progressives during that period

but 4

regular quads let me net a $30 win. It took Harrah's about two

months to

wake up and change the feeds to 0.1% each.

> [Original Message]
> From: Chandler <omnibibulous1@c...>
> To: <vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 6/4/2005 8:18:16 PM
> Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago

Inventory

>
> I don't think he's talking about meter rate. I think what Howard

has done

> is created a way to determine ER including the quad royals, by
determining a
> value at which each quad meter increases total ER.
>
> Chandler
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of vp_nbi
> Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 8:02 PM
> To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago Inventory
>
>
> Thanks. Just out of curiosity how did you know the quads were

metered

> at .1% ? Did someone actually determine this or is .1% some sort

of

> standard for progressives featuring metered quads? It would be

nice if

> this info was on vpFree somewhere. I wonder how often the quad
> jackpots rise to a level where they have a significant impact on

the

> game's overall return.
>
> --- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stern"
> <howard.w.stern@e...> wrote:
> > Playing standard strategy for 9-6 DDB twos, threes or fours no

low hit

> > every 2601 hands so every $13.01 on that meter is 0.1%.
> > twos, threes or fours with low every 6983 hands so every

$34.92 on that

> > meter is 0.1%
> > four aces no low every 5761 hands so $28.81 is 0.1%
> > four aces with low every 16,235 hands so $81.18 is 0.1%
> > The two strategy changes likely to lower this occur when the

royal

> is over
> > about $5,500 in that AT suited is better than A and AKQs, AKJs

and AQJs,

> > are better than AA. The 3RFs that include a ten need to be

slightly

> higher
> > to make this change. I might check this play out tomorrow but I

have

> $55 in
> > coupons for MS and Trump. (The last rating period was awful for

me

> at MS.)
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: vp_nbi <nbi@w...>
> > > To: <vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: 6/4/2005 11:06:09 AM
> > > Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago

Inventory

> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler"

<omnibibulous1@c...>

> > > wrote:
> > > > Remember the prog is DDB. It is upstairs along one wall of

the

> > > table games
> > > > area. I recently talked to a EC regular who says they have

been 9/6

> > > for a
> > > > while , but I remember them as 9/5. My memory often fools

me,

> but it is
> > > > definitely 9/6 now.
> > >
> > > Thanks. I'll definitely check this out. Does anyone know what

the

> > > impact of metered quads is on the game's return? Running some

paytable

> > > calculations with frugal I discovered that the game becomes

JOB like

> > > in return at around 5100 coins (99.57 to be precise). That's
> > > discounting any quad pays above baseline so it seems the game

could be

> > > playable below 5100 coins. As I'm unfamiliar with metered

quads I have

> > > no frame of reference for even attempting a guess as to their

impact.

> > > They could be metered in many different ways, unequal rates,

partially

> > > pegged to the jackpot, etc. Another question would be how

often the

> > > jackpot actually rises to 5100 coins. I know the Don & Mikes

$1 bartop

> > > rarely gets that high although it was $4900 the other day.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Chandler
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
> > > > [mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of vp_nbi
> > > > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 3:08 PM
> > > > To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts East Chicago

Inventory

> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE"

<vpFREE@C...> wrote:

> > > > > Private email to vpFREE Administrator:
> > > > >
> > > > > ------- Forwarded message follows -------
> > > > >
> > > > > There have been some changes for the better. You now

cannot

> throw a
> > > > > rock without hitting some FPJB. Single play quarter and

dollar

> > > > > machines upstairs near the table games and in the lower

level

> vp area.
> > > > > There is also $JB in the bartops at the flair bar. Most

of the

> > > > > multigames that have the JB also contain 9/7 DB, 8/5 BP

and

> 9/6 DDB.
> > > > > So there is an awful lot of 99% and above inventory. I

did

> not spot
> > > > > any new NSUD.
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately, multiplay and $5 inventory is still bad.
> > > > >
> > > > > The bank of uprights that contained the JB, NSUD and TB+

remain.

> > > > >
> > > > > The $ DDB prog with meters on royal and all the quads,

previously

> > > short
> > > > > pay, is now 9/6.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your report. Where is the $1 progressive

located? On my

> > > > last visit I must have spaced out and walked right past it

as I was

> > > > intently looking for some positive Spin-Poker.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I was not familiar with some of the more exotic paytable.
> I'll take
> > > > > notes next visit. There may be something else playable

there.

> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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I like Howards way to determine the added ER for the quads. I don't see a
lot of the quad meters in the 50%+ range. I think it is because the cycle
for most of them is so short. Mostly I think you are going to find them
adding less than a few tenths each. I don't have much experience with multi
progs and I happily defer to anyone with more time on them. The way Howard
has it figured you can survey the quad meters and add even the 1 or 2 tenths
each may get you to what ever the royal is at and then decide whether it is
worth playing. The point is probably moot for me as the ER is going to have
to be pretty sweet before I decide to pound a $DDB prog.

Chandler

[mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of jaydavidson118

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 11:51 PM
To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts Inventory-progressives rules
of thumb

As a rule of thumb to figure out if a progressive has turned
positive, you need to multiply the contribution to game return by the
% increase in progressive. e.g. for ddb approx 2% of return is in the
royal hence a 50% increase $4,000 to $6,000 will give the magic 1% to
turn the game positive. For quads the return for all the good quads
everything but 5-king, the contribution to game return is in the 2-3%
range, so if any one of the quads is 50%+ over base go for it.

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler"
<omnibibulous1@c...> wrote:

I did not know you could figure this out just using the frequency

of the

hand. Usually when I see those quads on a progressive I just

scratch my

head and guess. I think I see how you did it and can replicate it,

but if

you have a little time in the future maybe you could walk me

through it with

an explanation... Quad progressive calculation for dummies:-) I

don't play

many multiple prog games, but this skill could come in handy some

day.

Incidentally, should I assume that these quad progressives accrue (

on the

meter) at the same rate or will one need to clock them separately?

This is

probably speculative as I'm off to Tunica soon and unlikely to put

my

bankroll in a head on collision with $ DDB.

Chandler

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Yahoo! Groups Links

I must say I'm a little surprised by nbi and Chandler's responses to
progressive my rule of thumb calc... as in I'm not going to shlep a
notebook computer into Resorts to run some regression analysis and do
precise calculations of er based on 2,3,4s appears every 2601 hands.
I'm happy with the easy to remember contribution to return is approx.
2% for royal and 2-3% for quads except 5-k(which don't count for
progressives). Note my formulation is completely general 50% increase
was chosen as an example 10% increase works just fine...as in it
adds .2 to .3 to er...or 5% adds .1-.15. Remember the progressives
are additive every little bit helps.

nbi response:
I took a closer look at this progressive with WinPoker. The decision
on whether or not to play can be based on the RF and all the quads
with the exception of 5-K which has too high a frequency. You need to
be careful on the game return precision. For a 4000 coin RF a 533 coin
2-3-4 quad will yield 100%. This amounts to 33.25% over base, not the
suggested 50% which would produce 600 coins. If one calculates the
neccessary quad meter values for several RF data points while forcing
the game return precision to be in the neighborhood of 100.00 a linear
equation of the form "y = ax + b" can be derived for each quad. Having
done that the equations can be inserted into an Excel or OpenOffice
spreadsheet to calculate the neccessary quad meter values yielding a
100% game for any RF in the range of 4000 to 6000. This of course
assumes at least one of the quads is high enough to yield 100%. If
none of the quads are at a high enough level a usable rule of thumb
could be nontrivial to derive. Dancer claims to have derived a
sophisticated progressive strategy which he indicates is "not for
sale". That seems like a pretty good indicator that there's a lot of
work involved.
--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler"
<omnibibulous1@c...> wrote:

I like Howards way to determine the added ER for the quads. I

don't see a

lot of the quad meters in the 50%+ range. I think it is because

the cycle

for most of them is so short. Mostly I think you are going to find

them

adding less than a few tenths each. I don't have much experience

with multi

progs and I happily defer to anyone with more time on them. The

way Howard

has it figured you can survey the quad meters and add even the 1 or

2 tenths

each may get you to what ever the royal is at and then decide

whether it is

worth playing. The point is probably moot for me as the ER is

going to have

···

to be pretty sweet before I decide to pound a $DDB prog.

Chandler

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118"
<jaydavidson118@y...> wrote:

I must say I'm a little surprised by nbi and Chandler's responses to
progressive my rule of thumb calc... as in I'm not going to shlep a
notebook computer into Resorts to run some regression analysis and do
precise calculations of er based on 2,3,4s appears every 2601 hands.

Electronic devices aren't allowed. You wouldn't need one anyways as
what I'm suggesting can easily be computed at home with software that
most vp players already have. Simply print the completed spreadsheet
on your printer and you're good to go. I'm not sure why you refer to
the 2601 frequency. Do you think that's too frequent or not frequent
enough? It all depends on how busy the progressive is. Obviously on a
bank of 6 machines occupied by people churning out 800 hands/hr it
might be neccessary to refer to my table more frequently, especially
if your chosen decision point is the quads w/o kicker. A minor
nuisance, but certainly tolerable. OTOH, if you're the only player it
isn't an issue at all.
  

I'm happy with the easy to remember contribution to return is approx.
2% for royal and 2-3% for quads except 5-k(which don't count for
progressives). Note my formulation is completely general 50% increase
was chosen as an example 10% increase works just fine...as in it
adds .2 to .3 to er...or 5% adds .1-.15. Remember the progressives
are additive every little bit helps.

I agree that it would be nice to have a convenient rule of thumb. But
you can't gloss over the precision unless you want to risk being
sidelined on positive plays or worse yet be playing in negative ones.
If a small amount of homework results in a tool that's easier than any
rule of thumb and more precise too, why not spend the effort? It's
well worth it.

A word of caution regarding the Resorts progressive. This is a high
variance $1 game, i.e. it's easy to get clobbered in the short run.
Prospective players might wish to factor that into their bankroll
calculations.

···

nbi response:
I took a closer look at this progressive with WinPoker. The decision
on whether or not to play can be based on the RF and all the quads
with the exception of 5-K which has too high a frequency. You need to
be careful on the game return precision. For a 4000 coin RF a 533 coin
2-3-4 quad will yield 100%. This amounts to 33.25% over base, not the
suggested 50% which would produce 600 coins. If one calculates the
neccessary quad meter values for several RF data points while forcing
the game return precision to be in the neighborhood of 100.00 a linear
equation of the form "y = ax + b" can be derived for each quad. Having
done that the equations can be inserted into an Excel or OpenOffice
spreadsheet to calculate the neccessary quad meter values yielding a
100% game for any RF in the range of 4000 to 6000. This of course
assumes at least one of the quads is high enough to yield 100%. If
none of the quads are at a high enough level a usable rule of thumb
could be nontrivial to derive. Dancer claims to have derived a
sophisticated progressive strategy which he indicates is "not for
sale". That seems like a pretty good indicator that there's a lot of
work involved.
--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler"
<omnibibulous1@c...> wrote:
> I like Howards way to determine the added ER for the quads. I
don't see a
> lot of the quad meters in the 50%+ range. I think it is because
the cycle
> for most of them is so short. Mostly I think you are going to find
them
> adding less than a few tenths each. I don't have much experience
with multi
> progs and I happily defer to anyone with more time on them. The
way Howard
> has it figured you can survey the quad meters and add even the 1 or
2 tenths
> each may get you to what ever the royal is at and then decide
whether it is
> worth playing. The point is probably moot for me as the ER is
going to have
> to be pretty sweet before I decide to pound a $DDB prog.
>
> Chandler
>

You may have a point, Jay. I'll rethink when I have more time. I am
perfectly happy with RF rules of thumb. I can even figure out ER benefit
for the RF prog to the nearest tenth and this minimum precision is what I am
mostly after for the quad meters. The only cumbersome bit is remembering
the quad frequencies. After that the math can easily be done in your head.
It may be easier to remember percent contribution and figure it out that
way. Either way, if you play it enough and become familiar with the prog,
it will become rote.

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of jaydavidson118
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 12:08 AM
To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: (Fwd) Resorts -progressives rules of thumb
v. precise and cumbersome

I must say I'm a little surprised by nbi and Chandler's responses to
progressive my rule of thumb calc... as in I'm not going to shlep a
notebook computer into Resorts to run some regression analysis and do
precise calculations of er based on 2,3,4s appears every 2601 hands.
I'm happy with the easy to remember contribution to return is approx.
2% for royal and 2-3% for quads except 5-k(which don't count for
progressives). Note my formulation is completely general 50% increase
was chosen as an example 10% increase works just fine...as in it
adds .2 to .3 to er...or 5% adds .1-.15. Remember the progressives
are additive every little bit helps.

Both quarter and dollar at about 1% (1.5K and 6K) over base tonight.

Chandler

The $1 must have been hit as it was just over reset on Thursday
evening. The $.25 reached a juicy $1700+ which I chased to the tune of
$200. Multi-Strike DBDW dealt me 5 Aces on 4x so it wasn't a bad day.

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler" <omnibibulous1@c...>
wrote:

···

Both quarter and dollar at about 1% (1.5K and 6K) over base tonight.

Chandler