vpFREE2 Forums

Fw: Irony at The Palms

#1

Yesterday afternoon, July 12, I received the following phone call

"Richard, this is Tara at The Palms" Your play is "too strong" for us, and you will no longer be able to earn points or participate
in any promotions. You are welcome in the casino, can redeem existing points (old & new), and can play w/o any of the above benefits

What makes this so ironic is that I received a mailer in July for the first time in 6 months, and recently have been deluged with other offers including shows and tournaments

Been wondering whether I'm unique, or anyone else has received similar notice

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Richard Gordon wrote:

Yesterday afternoon, July 12, I received the following phone call
"Richard, this is Tara at The Palms" Your play is "too strong"
for us, and you will no longer be able to earn points or participate
in any promotions. You are welcome in the casino, can redeem
existing points (old & new), and can play w/o any of the above
benefits

What makes this so ironic is that I received a mailer in July
for the first time in 6 months, and recently have been deluged
with other offers including shows and tournaments.

Been wondering whether I'm unique, or anyone else has
received similar notice.

A wise friend of mine described the casino/hustler relationship
thusly:
"They(the casinos) love you most just before you get 86'd."

My view of the situation is that casino management sometimes
suffer from multiple personality disorder. Marketing may
love ya but operations hate ya.

G'luck all,
Gamb00ler

#3

If I may ask you a couple questions, did you ever mix in any slot play or other type of action to try and camouflage your skill? Just how "strong" was your "too strong" action? Did you pound them at $1 DB for years? Did you get lucky and hit a bunch of royals in a short period?

I'm just curious what your "crimes" were to warrant them doing this.

thanks,
BB

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Gordon" <theolflash@...> wrote:

Yesterday afternoon, July 12, I received the following phone call

"Richard, this is Tara at The Palms" Your play is "too strong" for us, and you will no longer be able to earn points or participate
in any promotions. You are welcome in the casino, can redeem existing points (old & new), and can play w/o any of the above benefits

#4

The term is "parasitic" relationship; let's not sugar-coat the term. For the Yahoo's, the casino is the parasite. For AP's, they are parasites on the casinos.

Marketing generally operates separately from the surveillance or bean-counters.

Lastly, never underestimate the power of camoflague by playing slots or some other money-losing activity. I try to leave the casino a loser so that the first they see when they bring up my record is that I lost money before they see I won such from them. Being a loser helps "frame" the casino's expectation of me.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gamb00ler" <gamb00ler@...> wrote:

A wise friend of mine described the casino/hustler relationship
thusly: "They(the casinos) love you most just before you get 86'd."

My view of the situation is that casino management sometimes
suffer from multiple personality disorder. Marketing may
love ya but operations hate ya.

G'luck all,
Gamb00ler

#5

People on this board have to realize that if all your playing is on positive machines you will, and should, lose all comps, fliers, welfare checks, eic.
Want jackets and free buffets? Stick to DDB and BP.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Gordon" <theolflash@...> wrote:

Yesterday afternoon, July 12, I received the following phone call

"Richard, this is Tara at The Palms" Your play is "too strong" for us, and you will no longer be able to earn points or participate
in any promotions. You are welcome in the casino, can redeem existing points (old & new), and can play w/o any of the above benefits

What makes this so ironic is that I received a mailer in July for the first time in 6 months, and recently have been deluged with other offers including shows and tournaments

Been wondering whether I'm unique, or anyone else has received similar notice

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

If I may ask you a couple questions, did you ever mix in any slot play or other type of action to try and camouflage your skill? Just how "strong" was your "too strong" action? Did you pound them at $1 DB for years? Did you get lucky and hit a bunch of royals in a short period?

I'm just curious what your "crimes" were to warrant them doing this.

thanks,
BB

Over the years I've played everything from 1c Lobstermania to 100 play bonus, but that's ancient history.

Virtually all my recent play has been on 10 play Jacks, and I
was removed from the mailing list for getting lucky and winning on them late last year.

Played the same machines this year between March 2-July 8, when promotions were available to try and level the playing field (which must have convicted me)
  total coin only (ca) $450,000 = 360,000 hands, had 6 Royals

···

------------------------------------

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#7

RIchard, what denom is this, I could not get the math on this?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Gordon" <theolflash@...> wrote:

>>
>
>
> If I may ask you a couple questions, did you ever mix in any slot play or
> other type of action to try and camouflage your skill? Just how "strong"
> was your "too strong" action? Did you pound them at $1 DB for years? Did
> you get lucky and hit a bunch of royals in a short period?
>
> I'm just curious what your "crimes" were to warrant them doing this.
>
> thanks,
> BB

Over the years I've played everything from 1c Lobstermania to 100 play
bonus, but that's ancient history.

Virtually all my recent play has been on 10 play Jacks, and I
was removed from the mailing list for getting lucky and winning on them late
last year.

Played the same machines this year between March 2-July 8, when promotions
were available to try and level the playing field (which must have convicted
me)
  total coin only (ca) $450,000 = 360,000 hands, had 6 Royals
> ------------------------------------
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

#8

<< Lastly, never underestimate the power of camoflague by playing slots or some other money-losing activity. I try to leave the casino a loser so that the first they see when they bring up my record is that I lost money before they see I won such from them. Being a loser helps "frame" the casino's expectation of me.>>

Hi,

I have a wife that happily plays pennies, sometimes on my card.

Last year we had an actual net loss for the year of just $1400. All of it, plus more was wifey on the penny things. We do play 9/6 side by side quite a bit, but she gets bored and likes the penny havens. We play almost all at the .25 level.

We had roughly a dozen trips to AC last year. Including comped weekends and food. We could not always get in as some weekends we waited too late to ask for rooms (I usually use Marriott points to stay nearby). It just means I cannot drink on those trips. Same for July 30-Aug 1 this month and Aug 14th weekend. The Food TV show and Barry Manilow caused my regular haunts to be sold out. Come September we should have no problem again.

I do not track room, food and beverage in detail. However two weekends a year would have been more than the $1400 loss alone, so we had a very good year.

We have already had 2 royals this year so are on target to have a positive year when factoring in F&B and rooms. It could all turn around tomorrow, but we have a great time and have made many new friends along the way.

Good luck to all,
Rusty

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#9

People on this board have to realize that if all your playing is on positive machines you will, and should, lose all comps, fliers, welfare checks, eic.
Want jackets and free buffets? Stick to DDB and BP.

  I can somewhat understand this but if that's the case then make it a general casino policy and not one that is invoked when a player wins.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mike" <melbedewy1226@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Gordon" <theolflash@> wrote:

> Yesterday afternoon, July 12, I received the following phone call
>
> "Richard, this is Tara at The Palms" Your play is "too strong" for us, and you will no longer be able to earn points or participate
> in any promotions.

And that is why you( generic) don't tell the casino that a progressive meter is not resetting.

Larry F.

#10

Can I assume that if you only buy sales items using your card at your local
supermarket, or if you only buy loss-leaders at Best Buy you should lose
your grocery card or be prevented from buying sale items at Best Buy?

Both you and most (not all) casino managers have no idea how a retail
business is run. Please note the correlation with the number of poorly run
casino companies that are in or near bankruptcy.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
mike
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 6:20 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Fw: Irony at The Palms

People on this board have to realize that if all your playing is on positive
machines you will, and should, lose all comps, fliers, welfare checks, eic.
Want jackets and free buffets? Stick to DDB and BP.

#11

Mike

I have never heard something as ridiculous as "a player should lose all
comps etc if they only play advantage machines". I am not sure how much
Larry won but more power to him. A winning player should have the same
rights as any losing player. I don't see anywhere where Jean S and husband
have been 86'd at any Vegas casino and supposedly they have won every year
but one for the 15+ years.

I am quite surprised that Larry was 86'd for winning. I would like to know
how many years Larry won and the amount.

In fact a winning player is good advertising. If you only have losing
players, I believe eventually a casino's business will suffer. Regardless of
the pay tables' or slot machines' win %, machines are going to jackpots at
some point. Players are going to have winning streaks but over a period of
time win/losses will come close to the pay table/slot pay backs. There are
exceptions but I can't imagine this happening very often.

J. T.

···

_____

From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
lfcmja@verizon.net
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 2:54 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Fw: Irony at The Palms

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> , "mike"
<melbedewy1226@...> wrote:

People on this board have to realize that if all your playing is on

positive machines you will, and should, lose all comps, fliers, welfare
checks, eic.

Want jackets and free buffets? Stick to DDB and BP.

I can somewhat understand this but if that's the case then make it a general
casino policy and not one that is invoked when a player wins.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> , "Richard

Gordon" <theolflash@> wrote:

> Yesterday afternoon, July 12, I received the following phone call
>
> "Richard, this is Tara at The Palms" Your play is "too strong" for us,

and you will no longer be able to earn points or participate

> in any promotions.

And that is why you( generic) don't tell the casino that a progressive meter
is not resetting.

Larry F.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#12

It was not me. It was Richard.

Larry F.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Spornhauer" <janspornhauer@...> wrote:

Mike

I have never heard something as ridiculous as "a player should lose all
comps etc if they only play advantage machines". I am not sure how much
Larry won but more power to him.

#13

RIchard, what denom is this, I could not get the math on this?

  total coin only (ca) $450,000 = 360,000 hands, had 6 Royals
> ------------------------------------
>

It is quarters ($1.25 per hand)

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Gordon" <theolflash@...> wrote:

#14

This is an interesting thread. Casino marketing vs bean counters.

I really like the FPVP at the Palms.
I get $49 room offers frequently because(I think) of my out of town address. My play is 25¢ mid roller 5-10k daily.
Sometimes, after play review, the rooms and food are comped(if not, since I cut my deal in advance, I know what to expect-no surprises except good ones).I generally break even or leave ahead on machine play. However, we do play some penny machines for fun ($20-30) and usually lose. Also I play a lot of $2-$4 Texas hold-em on my card. The house gets a rake and I usually win or break even too.(and never discount the value of $1 premium cocktails). More and more, I believe, and agree with others on this board, that the mix it up theory(with a minimal entertainment $$ expense) will keep one's name off the bean counters radar and hopefully will keep the offers coming. If you
are a VP player just in it just for the cash at this juncture of time, and do not value the extras, it will be very tough to justify the gambling risk for the return. If you can find those 103-105% deals that were available in the recent past, go for it. Personally I think this cut back in VP payback is a blip and new competition and new owners will cause an improvement in pay schedules. Vegas has always been about food deals and value gambling. The Easy money is gone for now. Tried and true is a great way for Vegas to get back on track.

#15

Actually, about two years ago, Best Buy got some major press because they announced that they didn't want people who were only going in for their loss leaders, and were banning them from their stores:

http://tinyurl.com/aoyf9

Or, how about this one -- about three years ago, Sprint went through their database and dropped their "unprofitable" customers, even those who were still under contract with them:

http://tinyurl.com/mm4seo

As you see, it's not just the casinos doing this. It's all businesses. Is it right? I don't think so. When they set the pricing rules (and gambling rules), they should be the same for everyone. If I only buy loss leaders at Best Buy, then Best Buy should consider not offering products below their own cost. And if Sprint thinks my cell plan is too cheap, perhaps they shouldn't offer cell plans that cheap. Likewise, if the casino doesn't like it when I hit a Royal Flush or play a 101% machine, maybe they shouldn't make them available.

It seems that the casinos (and businesses) want to advertise these things (cheap products and high payout machines), hoping they'll get idiots in there who will lose (or spend) more money to offset the carrot they're offering. When you call them out on that, they don't like it. I bet if they could tie your Player's Card to the over-100% machines, and disable them after the machine realizes you're playing perfect strategy, they'd be thrilled.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Coleman" <vphobby2@...> wrote:

Can I assume that if you only buy sales items using your card at your local
supermarket, or if you only buy loss-leaders at Best Buy you should lose
your grocery card or be prevented from buying sale items at Best Buy?

#16

Likewise, if the casino doesn't like it when I hit a Royal Flush or play a 101% machine, maybe they shouldn't make them available.

I'd rather play FPDW progressive with the Palms .25% free play with no other giveaways ANY day than the NSUD with the food coupons, welfare checks, etc. that so many addicts (aka pro's) bang away on for hours at a time, deluding themselves into thinking they are going to make a living with their infinitesimal edge-computed using the ALWAYS mythical and illusory "perfect play".

#17

I'd rather play FPDW progressive with the Palms .25% free play with no
other giveaways ANY day than the NSUD with the food coupons, welfare
checks, etc. that so many addicts (aka pro's) bang away on for hours at
a time, deluding themselves into thinking they are going to make a
living with their infinitesimal edge-computed using the ALWAYS mythical
and illusory "perfect play".

I don't see what mythical and illusory perfect play has to do with it. If
the offers add more that 1% to the play, then NSUD is better, regardless of
how good your skill is.

Cogno

#18

Bill, a few things:
1) Casinos are in the entertainment business, not retail business per se like a supermarket. Casinos are in "service" business. So your analogy does not translate well. Please note entertainment businesses (since this is discretionary activities for many) do suffer during a deep recession whereas people still need to buy the basics from a supermarket to live. Additionally, the supermarket doesn't care if you are paying with WIC or foodstamps.

2) The topic you are talking about is covered in "Angel Customers & Demon Customer" (link at amazon http://www.amazon.com/Angel-Customers-Demon-Discover-Turbo-Charge/dp/1591840074/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279318010&sr=8-1) Basically the old premise of "Customer is always right" is flawed, deeply flawed.

3. The latin term is Caveat Venditor, the opposite of caveat emptor. Let the seller beware works just as well as let the buyer beware. If you want to sell things at the wrong prices, so be it and watch the parasites come out of the woodworks.

Again, thanks for your help via private email on class 2 versus class 3 machines.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Coleman" <vphobby2@...> wrote:

Can I assume that if you only buy sales items using your card at your local supermarket, or if you only buy loss-leaders at Best Buy you should lose your grocery card or be prevented from buying sale items at Best Buy?

Both you and most (not all) casino managers have no idea how a retail business is run. Please note the correlation with the number of poorly run casino companies that are in or near bankruptcy.

#19

I'm writing this over and over on expired casino coupons and burning them in front of a tiny altar to the godess of chance.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jim_mason7" <7711-jimmason@...> wrote:

... Personally I think this cut back in VP payback is a blip and new competition and new owners will cause an improvement in pay schedules. ....

#20

Hi Jason,

OK, let's get technical. Casinos are in the Hospitality Industry with Hotels
and Restaurants. One of the most significant features of Hospitality is
service. Look at the Entertainment industry -- movies, theme parks, sports,
boats, etc. Service is an insignificant part of their business. Where the
parallel does play is that people take discretionary income and decide to
spend it on Entertainment or Hospitality and the two compete for that
income. (Yes, you can find other choices but bear with me in a small
simplification).

Hospitality businesses all sell consumable products (in the broad sense of
consumable. The hotel room for tonight is used, you have nothing left. The
food in the restaurant is gone after you eat it, you have nothing left
(doggie bag excepted). The game on the vp, slot or table game is gone after
you play it, you have nothing left. But this doesn't mean that casinos and
restaurants are not retail businesses -- in fact management in both
industries acknowledge the fact. So let's look closer.

There are many types of retail businesses. Apparel sells clothes, Shoes sell
shoes, Big Box sell a variety of products as do Department stores. Jewelers
sell jewelry, Coin Dealers and Antique dealers sell used goods. Groceries
sell groceries and Pharmacies sell medicines. Restaurants sell food and
Casinos sell fun. So do Game Arcades. (Yes, today many of these lines are
blurred but it doesn't make a difference).

Some retailers sell specific brands. Bang and Olufsen or Apple Stores have
unique products. Ace Hardware and TrueValue sell exactly the same stuff. So
some retailers compete on unique merchandise and others on price or
ambiance. Casinos need to compete on price and ambiance.

Is this a perfect analogy? No, but it is necessary. If you are running a
Gaming property and don't look at it in this light you will make many
mistakes that will cut back your business. Even in this economy Las Vegas
properties could increase their market share if they really got the
fundamentals right. Unfortunately, and for many reasons, none of them
(except maybe for South Point) are trying to compete at this level.

B

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
fordscks
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 3:21 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Fw: Irony at The Palms

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Coleman" <vphobby2@...> wrote:

Can I assume that if you only buy sales items using your card at your

local supermarket, or if you only buy loss-leaders at Best Buy you should
lose your grocery card or be prevented from buying sale items at Best Buy?

Both you and most (not all) casino managers have no idea how a retail

business is run. Please note the correlation with the number of poorly run
casino companies that are in or near bankruptcy.

Bill, a few things:
1) Casinos are in the entertainment business, not retail business per se
like a supermarket. Casinos are in "service" business. So your analogy does
not translate well. Please note entertainment businesses (since this is
discretionary activities for many) do suffer during a deep recession whereas
people still need to buy the basics from a supermarket to live.
Additionally, the supermarket doesn't care if you are paying with WIC or
foodstamps.

2) The topic you are talking about is covered in "Angel Customers & Demon
Customer" (link at amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Angel-Customers-Demon-Discover-Turbo-Charge/dp/1591840
074/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279318010&sr=8-1) Basically the old
premise of "Customer is always right" is flawed, deeply flawed.

3. The latin term is Caveat Venditor, the opposite of caveat emptor. Let
the seller beware works just as well as let the buyer beware. If you want
to sell things at the wrong prices, so be it and watch the parasites come
out of the woodworks.

Again, thanks for your help via private email on class 2 versus class 3
machines.