vpFREE2 Forums

Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

As I said before, the paytables on two machines may be identical but the
RNGs have been set at different payouts percentages.

Therefore over a long period of time one machine may produce 500 four of a
kinds but the other machine only 300.

We're talking about processors that are programmed, not random coin flips.

It is totally random that you may flip a Royal flush tomorrow. It is also
pre-programmed to guarantee a profit for the casino over a long period of
time. That is not random profit.

Marc Landry - Partner

613-723-2057 x15

Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design

57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2

<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca

···

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of johnnyzee48127
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 9:54 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

Marc Landry wrote ......

That means an individual casino within Ontario jurisdiction could set

their machines higher if they chose to do so. Which means if they wanted,
they could set the payback% on one Jacks or Better machine to 95% and
another Jacks or Better machine at 85%. Which machine would you prefer to
play? They have the same pay table!

AND if they follow govt minimum guidelines, they would not be "cheating".

Marc, if what you are saying above is that a 6/5 JOB can have an expected
value of 95% and another 6/5 JOB machine can have an expected payback of
85%, that would certainly be cheating.

If a video poker machine can be 'set' to pay out differently than the
paytable indicates, that is cheating. I'm not including the magic genie
machines that aren't really video poker machines.

Part of the confusion might be that a Red, White and Blue slot machine can
have the same 'pay table' as another Red, White and Blue slot machine and
have different expected values. Slot machines can be set to different
expected values. This is accomplished by a weighting factor assigned to each
symbol. On the 92% version, the 3rd blue 7 ( for example) might come up more
frequently that the on the 90% version. Slot machines and video poker
machines are fundamentally different in this regard.

Your statement about the 85% minimum refers to the worst game they can put
in the casino. For example, let's say they put in 6/5 JOB game and 2 pair
pays 1 for 1 (push) instead of 2 for 1. That game would have an expected
value of about 83% and would be cheating by the rule you quote above.

Two different 9/6 JOB machines can have different results but their expected
value has to be the same or it is cheating.

Taking a different game, if Bill will flip coins with you and pay you $0.99
on the dollar for winning wagers ( 99% EV) and Frank will only pay you $0.98
on the dollar for winning wagers ( 98% EV), you may have a better return
with Frank than Bill over a couple hundred coin flips. That doesn't mean
that Bill is cheating. If,on the other hand, both Bill and Frank pay back
$0.99 on the dollar and I do 10,000 coin flips with each one, my results are
going to be pretty close.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And, as everyone else contributing to this topic has said before, what you are describing is, for video poker, totally illegal in Ontario.

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:

As I said before, the paytables on two machines may be identical but the
RNGs have been set at different payouts percentages.

...totally illegal in Ontario...

So was the treatment of the protesters at the G20 by our police as for one example personified by the case of Adam Nobody...

...and your point is?

MO

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Neil" <nembree@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
>
> As I said before, the paytables on two machines may be identical but the
> RNGs have been set at different payouts percentages.

And, as everyone else contributing to this topic has said before, what you are describing is, for video poker, totally illegal in Ontario.

I was on a cruise during the G20 protest. There was no mention of it in the
US media. It's like it did not happen. Missed it totally.

Marc Landry - Partner

···

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of mofromto2
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 8:40 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

...totally illegal in Ontario...

So was the treatment of the protesters at the G20 by our police as for one
example personified by the case of Adam Nobody...

...and your point is?

MO

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "Neil" <nembree@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:

>
> As I said before, the paytables on two machines may be identical but the
> RNGs have been set at different payouts percentages.

And, as everyone else contributing to this topic has said before, what you

are describing is, for video poker, totally illegal in Ontario.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I suppose I could ask the same question. It's a real stretch to try and make a connection between the brutish behaviour of some police at the G20, and the suggestion that casinos are rigging video poker machines.

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "mofromto2" <mofromto@...> wrote:

...totally illegal in Ontario...

So was the treatment of the protesters at the G20 by our police as for one example personified by the case of Adam Nobody...

...and your point is?

This was obviously written by Rob Singer. Discussions of Rob Singer's
system are not allowed on this forum. Please make all further posts on
this subject on FREEvpFREE or by private email.

vpFREE Administrator

···

On 2 Dec 2010 at 7:03, Marc Landry wrote:

Here's a topic that will either really open your eyes...or close that
one-track mind even further because of how close it hits to home.

I guess I am cynical that we in Ontario are getting the benefit of a completely fair gaming system seeing that it is basically run by our government who are not seemingly answerable to anyone. Remember there, are no privately or publicly owned casinos Ontario. The Ontario Alcohol and Gaming Commission is a government agency that oversees the Casinos that are in turn owned by another government agency,namely the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Commission. That same agency has been plagued with scandals in the last while especially with the lottery side, and so it gives me reasonable doubt as to the fairness of any game they are involved with. At least in Nevada the casinos are privately or publicly owned (as in shares) corporations that are competitive with each other and are strictly regulated by the Nevada Gaming commission and State Gaming Control Board.

As for the stretch to the G20 it may not be so far-fetched seeing this same government is resisting the outcry for a public probe into the mass mis-conduct of the police, many brought in from other provinces, during the G20 where most officers illegally removed any identifying badge during the time they dealt with protesters with the full knowledge of their superiors and chief.

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Neil" <nembree@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "mofromto2" <mofromto@> wrote:
>
> ...totally illegal in Ontario...
>
> So was the treatment of the protesters at the G20 by our police as for one example personified by the case of Adam Nobody...
>
> ...and your point is?

I suppose I could ask the same question. It's a real stretch to try and make a connection between the brutish behaviour of some police at the G20, and the suggestion that casinos are rigging video poker machines.

It seems to me we need to go back to the point of the original post. There
are now full pay Pick'em machines at the raceway. This is good news for
those who chose to believe the machines are run fairly. After all it
represent one of the best plays available in a casino. If you choose to
believe the machines are not totally fair that is certainly your
prerogative. There are lots of games to chose from and everyone can go and
enjoy a little gambling.

···

On 3 December 2010 07:58, mofromto2 <mofromto@sympatico.ca> wrote:

I guess I am cynical that we in Ontario are getting the benefit of a
completely fair gaming system seeing that it is basically run by our
government who are not seemingly answerable to anyone. Remember there, are
no privately or publicly owned casinos Ontario. The Ontario Alcohol and
Gaming Commission is a government agency that oversees the Casinos that are
in turn owned by another government agency,namely the Ontario Lottery and
Gaming Commission. That same agency has been plagued with scandals in the
last while especially with the lottery side, and so it gives me reasonable
doubt as to the fairness of any game they are involved with. At least in
Nevada the casinos are privately or publicly owned (as in shares)
corporations that are competitive with each other and are strictly regulated
by the Nevada Gaming commission and State Gaming Control Board.

As for the stretch to the G20 it may not be so far-fetched seeing this same
government is resisting the outcry for a public probe into the mass
mis-conduct of the police, many brought in from other provinces, during the
G20 where most officers illegally removed any identifying badge during the
time they dealt with protesters with the full knowledge of their superiors
and chief.

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
"Neil" <nembree@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
"mofromto2" <mofromto@> wrote:
> >
> > ...totally illegal in Ontario...
> >
> > So was the treatment of the protesters at the G20 by our police as for
one example personified by the case of Adam Nobody...
> >
> > ...and your point is?
>
>
> I suppose I could ask the same question. It's a real stretch to try and
make a connection between the brutish behaviour of some police at the G20,
and the suggestion that casinos are rigging video poker machines.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The only benefit to the government running the casinos in Ontario is that
big wins on machines are not taxable. (anything over $1199 is taxable in
the US)

Marc Landry - Partner
613-723-2057 x15
Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design
57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2
<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca

mofromto2 wrote:

I guess I am cynical that we in Ontario are getting the benefit of a
completely fair gaming system seeing that it is basically run by our
government who are not seemingly answerable to anyone. Remember
there, are no privately or publicly owned casinos Ontario.

Agreed. Full pay Pick'em Poker is good news anywhere that they are found.

MO

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Clerk <sclerk@...> wrote:

It seems to me we need to go back to the point of the original post. There
are now full pay Pick'em machines at the raceway. This is good news for
those who chose to believe the machines are run fairly. After all it
represent one of the best plays available in a casino. If you choose to
believe the machines are not totally fair that is certainly your
prerogative. There are lots of games to chose from and everyone can go and
enjoy a little gambling.

On 3 December 2010 07:58, mofromto2 <mofromto@...> wrote:

>
>
> I guess I am cynical that we in Ontario are getting the benefit of a
> completely fair gaming system seeing that it is basically run by our
> government who are not seemingly answerable to anyone. Remember there, are
> no privately or publicly owned casinos Ontario. The Ontario Alcohol and
> Gaming Commission is a government agency that oversees the Casinos that are
> in turn owned by another government agency,namely the Ontario Lottery and
> Gaming Commission. That same agency has been plagued with scandals in the
> last while especially with the lottery side, and so it gives me reasonable
> doubt as to the fairness of any game they are involved with. At least in
> Nevada the casinos are privately or publicly owned (as in shares)
> corporations that are competitive with each other and are strictly regulated
> by the Nevada Gaming commission and State Gaming Control Board.
>
> As for the stretch to the G20 it may not be so far-fetched seeing this same
> government is resisting the outcry for a public probe into the mass
> mis-conduct of the police, many brought in from other provinces, during the
> G20 where most officers illegally removed any identifying badge during the
> time they dealt with protesters with the full knowledge of their superiors
> and chief.
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Neil" <nembree@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "mofromto2" <mofromto@> wrote:
> > >
> > > ...totally illegal in Ontario...
> > >
> > > So was the treatment of the protesters at the G20 by our police as for
> one example personified by the case of Adam Nobody...
> > >
> > > ...and your point is?
> >
> >
> > I suppose I could ask the same question. It's a real stretch to try and
> make a connection between the brutish behaviour of some police at the G20,
> and the suggestion that casinos are rigging video poker machines.
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Some people, however, allege that they are not really full pay, but are rigged by the casino to be less than that.

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "mofromto2" <mofromto@...> wrote:

Agreed. Full pay Pick'em Poker is good news anywhere that they are found.

Yes, but if you choose to believe otherwise, they represent a great option.
Those who have theories that machines are fixed, apparently have plenty of
other options.

···

On 3 December 2010 11:12, Neil <nembree@rogers.com> wrote:

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
"mofromto2" <mofromto@...> wrote:
>
>
> Agreed. Full pay Pick'em Poker is good news anywhere that they are found.

Some people, however, allege that they are not really full pay, but are
rigged by the casino to be less than that.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I suppose it all depends on how much faith you are willing to put into the concept of fairness under different types of ownership/regulatory relationships.

I have certainly read a lot of derogatory comments about the Nevada Gaming Commission, and how ineffective they are. I don't really believe them, but.....?

Perhaps our point of view is influenced by our results. I have done reasonably well in Ontario over the past seven years - ergo, I have no reason to question the fairness. You may not have done so well, therefore you feel otherwise.

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "mofromto2" <mofromto@...> wrote:

I guess I am cynical that we in Ontario are getting the benefit of a completely fair gaming system seeing that it is basically run by our government who are not seemingly answerable to anyone......... At least in Nevada the casinos are privately or publicly owned (as in shares) corporations that are competitive with each other and are strictly regulated by the Nevada Gaming commission and State Gaming Control Board.

went to Rideau Carlton recently. Sadly no sign of the full pay Pick'Em machines anymore :frowning: