vpFREE2 Forums

Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

#21

I'm wondering if Urban_Tale has either the name or a link to the regulations that were quoted. It appears to clearly answer the question as to the legality of altering the randomness of any electronic gaming machine within a casino in Ontario.

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "urban_tale" <urban_tale@...> wrote:

From what I know, this is true.

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Clerk <sclerk@> wrote:
>
> I'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are expected to
> deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen the
> expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine would
> return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as that.
> They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
> random card distribution is cheating.
>
> On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
> > >
> > > But they suck compared to the old ones!
> >
> > What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern machines?
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

#22

Yes, my friend, I do. All casinos in Ontario, Canada are regulated by the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario. I keep a copy of the regulations in my car whenever I go to the casino. You can download a copy of it at:

http://www.agco.on.ca/pdfs/en/EGM_standards_dec07_v100.pdf

It's a good read (not all that long, actually). The relevant parts pertaining to this particular discussion would be found in sections 14.5, 20.1, and 55.

I made a mistake yesterday regarding payback percentages. The minimum for slot machines is 85%. The minimum for VP machines is 88%.

Hope this info helps.

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "nothernjoker" <sclerk@...> wrote:

I'm wondering if Urban_Tale has either the name or a link to the regulations that were quoted. It appears to clearly answer the question as to the legality of altering the randomness of any electronic gaming machine within a casino in Ontario.

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "urban_tale" <urban_tale@> wrote:
>
> From what I know, this is true.
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Clerk <sclerk@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are expected to
> > deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen the
> > expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine would
> > return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as that.
> > They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
> > random card distribution is cheating.
> >
> > On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But they suck compared to the old ones!
> > >
> > > What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern machines?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

#23

Thank you very much for that reference.

I looked into the question about three years ago (see messages 432 and 436 for copies of the emails), and was told approximately what the situation is, but was not referred to the regulation itself.

Of course, there will be some people who will still argue that the casino can disregard the regulation and cheat!

My response to that is: Why would they take the chance? There are plenty of gamblers who don't know one paytable from another, so if the casino is looking for a higher return, all they have to do is legally change the paytable - they may lose some players, but not many.

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "urban_tale" <urban_tale@...> wrote:

Yes, my friend, I do. All casinos in Ontario, Canada are regulated by the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario. I keep a copy of the regulations in my car whenever I go to the casino. You can download a copy of it at:

http://www.agco.on.ca/pdfs/en/EGM_standards_dec07_v100.pdf

It's a good read (not all that long, actually). The relevant parts pertaining to this particular discussion would be found in sections 14.5, 20.1, and 55.

#24

Thank you,

That pretty much tells us that altering the randomness of a gaming machine in Ontario is illegal and would constitute cheating.

Appreciate the information.. Thanks again.

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "urban_tale" <urban_tale@...> wrote:

Yes, my friend, I do. All casinos in Ontario, Canada are regulated by the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario. I keep a copy of the regulations in my car whenever I go to the casino. You can download a copy of it at:

http://www.agco.on.ca/pdfs/en/EGM_standards_dec07_v100.pdf

It's a good read (not all that long, actually). The relevant parts pertaining to this particular discussion would be found in sections 14.5, 20.1, and 55.

I made a mistake yesterday regarding payback percentages. The minimum for slot machines is 85%. The minimum for VP machines is 88%.

Hope this info helps.

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "nothernjoker" <sclerk@> wrote:
>
> I'm wondering if Urban_Tale has either the name or a link to the regulations that were quoted. It appears to clearly answer the question as to the legality of altering the randomness of any electronic gaming machine within a casino in Ontario.
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "urban_tale" <urban_tale@> wrote:
> >
> > From what I know, this is true.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Clerk <sclerk@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are expected to
> > > deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen the
> > > expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine would
> > > return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as that.
> > > They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
> > > random card distribution is cheating.
> > >
> > > On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > But they suck compared to the old ones!
> > > >
> > > > What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern machines?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

#25

Just to add one more note, Sections 14.3.4 through 14.3.6 are an interesting read. Essentially they state very clearly the the gaming equipment must use a random selection process per Random Number Generator standards in order to produce game outcomes.

In addition, they go on to clarify that the gaming equipment must not automatically alter paytables or any function of the equipment based on internal computation of the hold percentage or the playing history.

Furthermore, the gaming equipment must accurately display the game outcome as determined by the random number generator.

I think it is very clear that the regulations do not allow any internal manipulation of the any machine (slot machines or VP) to "set predetermined outcomes."

As stated in this thread already the casinos control the payback by simply providing a paytable which falls within the minimum requirements and that they feel the patrons will play.

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "nothernjoker" <sclerk@...> wrote:

Thank you,

That pretty much tells us that altering the randomness of a gaming machine in Ontario is illegal and would constitute cheating.

Appreciate the information.. Thanks again.

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "urban_tale" <urban_tale@> wrote:
>
> Yes, my friend, I do. All casinos in Ontario, Canada are regulated by the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario. I keep a copy of the regulations in my car whenever I go to the casino. You can download a copy of it at:
>
> http://www.agco.on.ca/pdfs/en/EGM_standards_dec07_v100.pdf
>
> It's a good read (not all that long, actually). The relevant parts pertaining to this particular discussion would be found in sections 14.5, 20.1, and 55.
>
> I made a mistake yesterday regarding payback percentages. The minimum for slot machines is 85%. The minimum for VP machines is 88%.
>
> Hope this info helps.
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "nothernjoker" <sclerk@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm wondering if Urban_Tale has either the name or a link to the regulations that were quoted. It appears to clearly answer the question as to the legality of altering the randomness of any electronic gaming machine within a casino in Ontario.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "urban_tale" <urban_tale@> wrote:
> > >
> > > From what I know, this is true.
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Clerk <sclerk@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are expected to
> > > > deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen the
> > > > expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine would
> > > > return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as that.
> > > > They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
> > > > random card distribution is cheating.
> > > >
> > > > On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > > "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But they suck compared to the old ones!
> > > > >
> > > > > What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern machines?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

#26

We are starting to split hairs here. Below is a small section of the
Ministry guidelines. As you mentioned in Ontario the payback minimum is 88%.
I emphasis the word "minimum". 88% would be a terrible rate and it would
suck back a players money real quick.

This proves my theory that even though it is totally random in some players
minds, what would you rather play on - a machine that pays back 88% or one
that pays back 94%. And I am sure you would notice that difference if you
played these two machines on a regular basis at your favorite casino.

Like I said, the new VP Pick'em at Rideau Carleton suck. You would do much
better on the other side of the casino at the new VP that does not have
Pick'em. I just got 4 Aces for $1200 on Double Crown Poker last night.

In my mind, the casino management has purposely set these two different
banks of VP machines at different payback schedules.

20.1.2 The gaming equipment must have a minimum theoretical payout
percentage of eighty five (85.000) percent for each wager available on the
game.

Marc Landry - Partner

613-723-2057 x15

Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design

57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2

<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca

···

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of urban_tale
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:06 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

Yes, my friend, I do. All casinos in Ontario, Canada are regulated by the
Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario. I keep a copy of the regulations
in my car whenever I go to the casino. You can download a copy of it at:

http://www.agco.on.ca/pdfs/en/EGM_standards_dec07_v100.pdf

It's a good read (not all that long, actually). The relevant parts
pertaining to this particular discussion would be found in sections 14.5,
20.1, and 55.

I made a mistake yesterday regarding payback percentages. The minimum for
slot machines is 85%. The minimum for VP machines is 88%.

Hope this info helps.

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "nothernjoker" <sclerk@...>
wrote:

I'm wondering if Urban_Tale has either the name or a link to the

regulations that were quoted. It appears to clearly answer the question as
to the legality of altering the randomness of any electronic gaming machine
within a casino in Ontario.

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "urban_tale" <urban_tale@> wrote:

>
> From what I know, this is true.
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , Stephen Clerk <sclerk@> wrote:

> >
> > I'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are

expected to

> > deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen

the

> > expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine

would

> > return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as

that.

> > They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
> > random card distribution is cheating.
> >
> > On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,

> > > "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But they suck compared to the old ones!
> > >
> > > What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern

machines?

> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#27

You do realize that you can tell the payback of a video-poker machine by
looking at the pay table? If two machines have the same pay table, they have
the same payback.

Cogno

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of Marc Landry
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:32 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

We are starting to split hairs here. Below is a small section of the
Ministry guidelines. As you mentioned in Ontario the payback minimum is 88%.
I emphasis the word "minimum". 88% would be a terrible rate and it would
suck back a players money real quick.

This proves my theory that even though it is totally random in some players
minds, what would you rather play on - a machine that pays back 88% or one
that pays back 94%. And I am sure you would notice that difference if you
played these two machines on a regular basis at your favorite casino.

Like I said, the new VP Pick'em at Rideau Carleton suck. You would do much
better on the other side of the casino at the new VP that does not have
Pick'em. I just got 4 Aces for $1200 on Double Crown Poker last night.

In my mind, the casino management has purposely set these two different
banks of VP machines at different payback schedules.

20.1.2 The gaming equipment must have a minimum theoretical payout
percentage of eighty five (85.000) percent for each wager available on the
game.

Marc Landry - Partner

613-723-2057 x15

Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design

57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2

<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of urban_tale
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:06 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

Yes, my friend, I do. All casinos in Ontario, Canada are regulated by the
Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario. I keep a copy of the regulations
in my car whenever I go to the casino. You can download a copy of it at:

http://www.agco.on.ca/pdfs/en/EGM_standards_dec07_v100.pdf

It's a good read (not all that long, actually). The relevant parts
pertaining to this particular discussion would be found in sections 14.5,
20.1, and 55.

I made a mistake yesterday regarding payback percentages. The minimum for
slot machines is 85%. The minimum for VP machines is 88%.

Hope this info helps.

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "nothernjoker" <sclerk@...>
wrote:

I'm wondering if Urban_Tale has either the name or a link to the

regulations that were quoted. It appears to clearly answer the question as
to the legality of altering the randomness of any electronic gaming machine
within a casino in Ontario.

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "urban_tale" <urban_tale@> wrote:

>
> From what I know, this is true.
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , Stephen Clerk <sclerk@> wrote:

> >
> > I'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are

expected to

> > deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen

the

> > expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine

would

> > return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as

that.

> > They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
> > random card distribution is cheating.
> >
> > On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,

> > > "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But they suck compared to the old ones!
> > >
> > > What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern

machines?

> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links

#28

Do you realize that over time some machines pay back less than others
regardless, if they have the same pay table? And it's not lick of the draw.
It programming!

Marc Landry - Partner

613-723-2057 x15

Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design

57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2

<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca

···

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 7:50 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

You do realize that you can tell the payback of a video-poker machine by
looking at the pay table? If two machines have the same pay table, they have
the same payback.

Cogno

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On Behalf Of Marc Landry
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:32 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

We are starting to split hairs here. Below is a small section of the
Ministry guidelines. As you mentioned in Ontario the payback minimum is 88%.
I emphasis the word "minimum". 88% would be a terrible rate and it would
suck back a players money real quick.

This proves my theory that even though it is totally random in some players
minds, what would you rather play on - a machine that pays back 88% or one
that pays back 94%. And I am sure you would notice that difference if you
played these two machines on a regular basis at your favorite casino.

Like I said, the new VP Pick'em at Rideau Carleton suck. You would do much
better on the other side of the casino at the new VP that does not have
Pick'em. I just got 4 Aces for $1200 on Double Crown Poker last night.

In my mind, the casino management has purposely set these two different
banks of VP machines at different payback schedules.

20.1.2 The gaming equipment must have a minimum theoretical payout
percentage of eighty five (85.000) percent for each wager available on the
game.

Marc Landry - Partner

613-723-2057 x15

Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design

57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2

<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On Behalf Of urban_tale
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:06 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

Yes, my friend, I do. All casinos in Ontario, Canada are regulated by the
Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario. I keep a copy of the regulations
in my car whenever I go to the casino. You can download a copy of it at:

http://www.agco.on.ca/pdfs/en/EGM_standards_dec07_v100.pdf

It's a good read (not all that long, actually). The relevant parts
pertaining to this particular discussion would be found in sections 14.5,
20.1, and 55.

I made a mistake yesterday regarding payback percentages. The minimum for
slot machines is 85%. The minimum for VP machines is 88%.

Hope this info helps.

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "nothernjoker" <sclerk@...>
wrote:

I'm wondering if Urban_Tale has either the name or a link to the

regulations that were quoted. It appears to clearly answer the question as
to the legality of altering the randomness of any electronic gaming machine
within a casino in Ontario.

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "urban_tale" <urban_tale@> wrote:

>
> From what I know, this is true.
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , Stephen Clerk <sclerk@> wrote:

> >
> > I'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are

expected to

> > deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen

the

> > expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine

would

> > return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as

that.

> > They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
> > random card distribution is cheating.
> >
> > On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,

> > > "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But they suck compared to the old ones!
> > >
> > > What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern

machines?

> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#29

Marc,

Why would you play at a casino that you believe is knowingly cheating you?

Am I to believe that the machines that you sit down at are not rigged (because you know better), but the fix is in with the machines others play at?

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:

Do you realize that over time some machines pay back less than others
regardless, if they have the same pay table? And it's not lick of the draw.
It programming!

Marc Landry - Partner

613-723-2057 x15

Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design

57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2

<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 7:50 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

You do realize that you can tell the payback of a video-poker machine by
looking at the pay table? If two machines have the same pay table, they have
the same payback.

Cogno

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On Behalf Of Marc Landry
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:32 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

We are starting to split hairs here. Below is a small section of the
Ministry guidelines. As you mentioned in Ontario the payback minimum is 88%.
I emphasis the word "minimum". 88% would be a terrible rate and it would
suck back a players money real quick.

This proves my theory that even though it is totally random in some players
minds, what would you rather play on - a machine that pays back 88% or one
that pays back 94%. And I am sure you would notice that difference if you
played these two machines on a regular basis at your favorite casino.

Like I said, the new VP Pick'em at Rideau Carleton suck. You would do much
better on the other side of the casino at the new VP that does not have
Pick'em. I just got 4 Aces for $1200 on Double Crown Poker last night.

In my mind, the casino management has purposely set these two different
banks of VP machines at different payback schedules.

20.1.2 The gaming equipment must have a minimum theoretical payout
percentage of eighty five (85.000) percent for each wager available on the
game.

Marc Landry - Partner

613-723-2057 x15

Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design

57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2

<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On Behalf Of urban_tale
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:06 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

Yes, my friend, I do. All casinos in Ontario, Canada are regulated by the
Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario. I keep a copy of the regulations
in my car whenever I go to the casino. You can download a copy of it at:

http://www.agco.on.ca/pdfs/en/EGM_standards_dec07_v100.pdf

It's a good read (not all that long, actually). The relevant parts
pertaining to this particular discussion would be found in sections 14.5,
20.1, and 55.

I made a mistake yesterday regarding payback percentages. The minimum for
slot machines is 85%. The minimum for VP machines is 88%.

Hope this info helps.

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "nothernjoker" <sclerk@>
wrote:
>
> I'm wondering if Urban_Tale has either the name or a link to the
regulations that were quoted. It appears to clearly answer the question as
to the legality of altering the randomness of any electronic gaming machine
within a casino in Ontario.
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "urban_tale" <urban_tale@> wrote:
> >
> > From what I know, this is true.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , Stephen Clerk <sclerk@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are
expected to
> > > deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen
the
> > > expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine
would
> > > return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as
that.
> > > They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
> > > random card distribution is cheating.
> > >
> > > On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > But they suck compared to the old ones!
> > > >
> > > > What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern
machines?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#30

You best bet is diversification. Move around. Don't park at the same machine
for hours. That is a losing strategy.

···

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of nothernjoker
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:56 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

Marc,

Why would you play at a casino that you believe is knowingly cheating you?

Am I to believe that the machines that you sit down at are not rigged
(because you know better), but the fix is in with the machines others play
at?

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:

Do you realize that over time some machines pay back less than others
regardless, if they have the same pay table? And it's not lick of the

draw.

It programming!

Marc Landry - Partner

613-723-2057 x15

Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design

57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2

<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> ]

On Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 7:50 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

You do realize that you can tell the payback of a video-poker machine by
looking at the pay table? If two machines have the same pay table, they

have

the same payback.

Cogno

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

[mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On Behalf Of Marc Landry
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:32 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

We are starting to split hairs here. Below is a small section of the
Ministry guidelines. As you mentioned in Ontario the payback minimum is

88%.

I emphasis the word "minimum". 88% would be a terrible rate and it would
suck back a players money real quick.

This proves my theory that even though it is totally random in some

players

minds, what would you rather play on - a machine that pays back 88% or one
that pays back 94%. And I am sure you would notice that difference if you
played these two machines on a regular basis at your favorite casino.

Like I said, the new VP Pick'em at Rideau Carleton suck. You would do much
better on the other side of the casino at the new VP that does not have
Pick'em. I just got 4 Aces for $1200 on Double Crown Poker last night.

In my mind, the casino management has purposely set these two different
banks of VP machines at different payback schedules.

20.1.2 The gaming equipment must have a minimum theoretical payout
percentage of eighty five (85.000) percent for each wager available on the
game.

Marc Landry - Partner

613-723-2057 x15

Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design

57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2

<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

[mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On Behalf Of urban_tale
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:06 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

Yes, my friend, I do. All casinos in Ontario, Canada are regulated by the
Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario. I keep a copy of the regulations
in my car whenever I go to the casino. You can download a copy of it at:

http://www.agco.on.ca/pdfs/en/EGM_standards_dec07_v100.pdf

It's a good read (not all that long, actually). The relevant parts
pertaining to this particular discussion would be found in sections 14.5,
20.1, and 55.

I made a mistake yesterday regarding payback percentages. The minimum for
slot machines is 85%. The minimum for VP machines is 88%.

Hope this info helps.

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "nothernjoker" <sclerk@>
wrote:
>
> I'm wondering if Urban_Tale has either the name or a link to the
regulations that were quoted. It appears to clearly answer the question as
to the legality of altering the randomness of any electronic gaming

machine

within a casino in Ontario.
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "urban_tale" <urban_tale@>

wrote:

> >
> > From what I know, this is true.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , Stephen Clerk <sclerk@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are
expected to
> > > deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen
the
> > > expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the

machine

would
> > > return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as
that.
> > > They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change

the

> > > random card distribution is cheating.
> > >
> > > On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,

> > > > "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > But they suck compared to the old ones!
> > > >
> > > > What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern
machines?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#31

And I have never used the word "cheating" That was someone else. Each casino
does what they have to do to pay rent, employees and and other expenses.
There in business to make a profit. And I seek out machines VP or otherwise,
that pay better than most. So I too can make a profit.

···

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of nothernjoker
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:56 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

Marc,

Why would you play at a casino that you believe is knowingly cheating you?

Am I to believe that the machines that you sit down at are not rigged
(because you know better), but the fix is in with the machines others play
at?

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:

Do you realize that over time some machines pay back less than others
regardless, if they have the same pay table? And it's not lick of the

draw.

It programming!

Marc Landry - Partner

613-723-2057 x15

Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design

57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2

<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> ]

On Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 7:50 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

You do realize that you can tell the payback of a video-poker machine by
looking at the pay table? If two machines have the same pay table, they

have

the same payback.

Cogno

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

[mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On Behalf Of Marc Landry
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:32 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

We are starting to split hairs here. Below is a small section of the
Ministry guidelines. As you mentioned in Ontario the payback minimum is

88%.

I emphasis the word "minimum". 88% would be a terrible rate and it would
suck back a players money real quick.

This proves my theory that even though it is totally random in some

players

minds, what would you rather play on - a machine that pays back 88% or one
that pays back 94%. And I am sure you would notice that difference if you
played these two machines on a regular basis at your favorite casino.

Like I said, the new VP Pick'em at Rideau Carleton suck. You would do much
better on the other side of the casino at the new VP that does not have
Pick'em. I just got 4 Aces for $1200 on Double Crown Poker last night.

In my mind, the casino management has purposely set these two different
banks of VP machines at different payback schedules.

20.1.2 The gaming equipment must have a minimum theoretical payout
percentage of eighty five (85.000) percent for each wager available on the
game.

Marc Landry - Partner

613-723-2057 x15

Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design

57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2

<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

[mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On Behalf Of urban_tale
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:06 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

Yes, my friend, I do. All casinos in Ontario, Canada are regulated by the
Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario. I keep a copy of the regulations
in my car whenever I go to the casino. You can download a copy of it at:

http://www.agco.on.ca/pdfs/en/EGM_standards_dec07_v100.pdf

It's a good read (not all that long, actually). The relevant parts
pertaining to this particular discussion would be found in sections 14.5,
20.1, and 55.

I made a mistake yesterday regarding payback percentages. The minimum for
slot machines is 85%. The minimum for VP machines is 88%.

Hope this info helps.

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "nothernjoker" <sclerk@>
wrote:
>
> I'm wondering if Urban_Tale has either the name or a link to the
regulations that were quoted. It appears to clearly answer the question as
to the legality of altering the randomness of any electronic gaming

machine

within a casino in Ontario.
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "urban_tale" <urban_tale@>

wrote:

> >
> > From what I know, this is true.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , Stephen Clerk <sclerk@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are
expected to
> > > deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen
the
> > > expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the

machine

would
> > > return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as
that.
> > > They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change

the

> > > random card distribution is cheating.
> > >
> > > On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>

<vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,

> > > > "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > But they suck compared to the old ones!
> > > >
> > > > What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern
machines?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#32

<<Do you realize that over time some machines pay back less than others
regardless, if they have the same pay table? And it's not lick of the draw.
It programming!>>

What you're describing is illegal in most jurisdictions. If the machines are
programmed that way you are being cheated. You might consider filing a
lawsuit or contacting the Mounties or M-5 or whatever you have in Canada.

Cogno

#33

Marc, you have accused this casino of being able to set the frequency of quads. That is cheating.

I'm having a hard time following your argument.

You state the machines are random but the quad frequency can be set. Those are contradictory statements.

You state that you didn't call it cheating but some machines with the same paytable pay out differently, not due to normal variance in results. That would be cheating.

You also say that moving around is the best strategy because some machines pay better than others. If they have the same paytable, their expected values are the same. What you are saying is some machines are programmed to pay differently from other machines with the same paytable. That would be cheating.

And all of this without a single mentions of actual results.

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:

And I have never used the word "cheating" That was someone else. Each >casino does what they have to do to pay rent, employees and and other >expenses. There in business to make a profit. And I seek out machines >VP or otherwise, that pay better than most. So I too can make a profit.

#34

This reference comes from the Ontario Govt Standards guide on Gaming. It was
sent earlier by another member, not me.

20.1.2 The gaming equipment must have a minimum theoretical payout
percentage of eighty five (85.000) percent for each wager available on the
game.

Please note the word "MINIMUM".

That means an individual casino within Ontario jurisdiction could set their
machines higher if they chose to do so. Which means if they wanted, they
could set the payback% on one Jacks or Better machine to 95% and another
Jacks or Better machine at 85%. Which machine would you prefer to play? They
have the same pay table!

AND if they follow govt minimum guidelines, they would not be "cheating".

Believe me, most machines are set at 90% and up. A machine set at 85% would
be horrible to play, even if the pay table is the same.

Maybe you should google Random Number Generator and read up on it. Pay
tables only tell you what you win, after you win it.

···

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of johnnyzee48127
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 12:14 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:

And I have never used the word "cheating" That was someone else. Each
casino does what they have to do to pay rent, employees and and other
expenses. There in business to make a profit. And I seek out machines >VP

or otherwise, that pay better than most. So I too can make a profit.

Marc, you have accused this casino of being able to set the frequency of
quads. That is cheating.

I'm having a hard time following your argument.

You state the machines are random but the quad frequency can be set. Those
are contradictory statements.

You state that you didn't call it cheating but some machines with the same
paytable pay out differently, not due to normal variance in results. That
would be cheating.

You also say that moving around is the best strategy because some machines
pay better than others. If they have the same paytable, their expected
values are the same. What you are saying is some machines are programmed to
pay differently from other machines with the same paytable. That would be
cheating.

And all of this without a single mentions of actual results.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#35

What you don't seem to understand is that the theoretical payout of video
poker is determined by the pay table. There is no additional setting. This
has been explained to you several times, so I guess you simply don't believe
it, which is your right. People believe all kinds of erroneous things.
That's why I can make money gambling.

Cogno

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of Marc Landry
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:02 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

This reference comes from the Ontario Govt Standards guide on Gaming. It was
sent earlier by another member, not me.

20.1.2 The gaming equipment must have a minimum theoretical payout
percentage of eighty five (85.000) percent for each wager available on the
game.

Please note the word "MINIMUM".

That means an individual casino within Ontario jurisdiction could set their
machines higher if they chose to do so. Which means if they wanted, they
could set the payback% on one Jacks or Better machine to 95% and another
Jacks or Better machine at 85%. Which machine would you prefer to play? They
have the same pay table!

AND if they follow govt minimum guidelines, they would not be "cheating".

Believe me, most machines are set at 90% and up. A machine set at 85% would
be horrible to play, even if the pay table is the same.

Maybe you should google Random Number Generator and read up on it. Pay
tables only tell you what you win, after you win it.

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of johnnyzee48127
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 12:14 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:

And I have never used the word "cheating" That was someone else. Each
casino does what they have to do to pay rent, employees and and other
expenses. There in business to make a profit. And I seek out machines >VP

or otherwise, that pay better than most. So I too can make a profit.

Marc, you have accused this casino of being able to set the frequency of
quads. That is cheating.

I'm having a hard time following your argument.

You state the machines are random but the quad frequency can be set. Those
are contradictory statements.

You state that you didn't call it cheating but some machines with the same
paytable pay out differently, not due to normal variance in results. That
would be cheating.

You also say that moving around is the best strategy because some machines
pay better than others. If they have the same paytable, their expected
values are the same. What you are saying is some machines are programmed to
pay differently from other machines with the same paytable. That would be
cheating.

And all of this without a single mentions of actual results.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links

#36

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generation

Go to this web page about RNG. It might help you understand the pseudo-
randomness of VP.

···

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:27 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

What you don't seem to understand is that the theoretical payout of video
poker is determined by the pay table. There is no additional setting. This
has been explained to you several times, so I guess you simply don't believe
it, which is your right. People believe all kinds of erroneous things.
That's why I can make money gambling.

Cogno

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On Behalf Of Marc Landry
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:02 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

This reference comes from the Ontario Govt Standards guide on Gaming. It was
sent earlier by another member, not me.

20.1.2 The gaming equipment must have a minimum theoretical payout
percentage of eighty five (85.000) percent for each wager available on the
game.

Please note the word "MINIMUM".

That means an individual casino within Ontario jurisdiction could set their
machines higher if they chose to do so. Which means if they wanted, they
could set the payback% on one Jacks or Better machine to 95% and another
Jacks or Better machine at 85%. Which machine would you prefer to play? They
have the same pay table!

AND if they follow govt minimum guidelines, they would not be "cheating".

Believe me, most machines are set at 90% and up. A machine set at 85% would
be horrible to play, even if the pay table is the same.

C
From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On Behalf Of johnnyzee48127
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 12:14 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:

And I have never used the word "cheating" That was someone else. Each
casino does what they have to do to pay rent, employees and and other
expenses. There in business to make a profit. And I seek out machines >VP

or otherwise, that pay better than most. So I too can make a profit.

Marc, you have accused this casino of being able to set the frequency of
quads. That is cheating.

I'm having a hard time following your argument.

You state the machines are random but the quad frequency can be set. Those
are contradictory statements.

You state that you didn't call it cheating but some machines with the same
paytable pay out differently, not due to normal variance in results. That
would be cheating.

You also say that moving around is the best strategy because some machines
pay better than others. If they have the same paytable, their expected
values are the same. What you are saying is some machines are programmed to
pay differently from other machines with the same paytable. That would be
cheating.

And all of this without a single mentions of actual results.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#37

Your right to make up your own reality ends where the brick wall begins.

Cogno

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of Marc Landry
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:56 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generation

Go to this web page about RNG. It might help you understand the pseudo-
randomness of VP.

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:27 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

What you don't seem to understand is that the theoretical payout of video
poker is determined by the pay table. There is no additional setting. This
has been explained to you several times, so I guess you simply don't believe
it, which is your right. People believe all kinds of erroneous things.
That's why I can make money gambling.

Cogno

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On Behalf Of Marc Landry
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:02 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

This reference comes from the Ontario Govt Standards guide on Gaming. It was
sent earlier by another member, not me.

20.1.2 The gaming equipment must have a minimum theoretical payout
percentage of eighty five (85.000) percent for each wager available on the
game.

Please note the word "MINIMUM".

That means an individual casino within Ontario jurisdiction could set their
machines higher if they chose to do so. Which means if they wanted, they
could set the payback% on one Jacks or Better machine to 95% and another
Jacks or Better machine at 85%. Which machine would you prefer to play? They
have the same pay table!

AND if they follow govt minimum guidelines, they would not be "cheating".

Believe me, most machines are set at 90% and up. A machine set at 85% would
be horrible to play, even if the pay table is the same.

C
From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On Behalf Of johnnyzee48127
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 12:14 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:

And I have never used the word "cheating" That was someone else. Each
casino does what they have to do to pay rent, employees and and other
expenses. There in business to make a profit. And I seek out machines >VP

or otherwise, that pay better than most. So I too can make a profit.

Marc, you have accused this casino of being able to set the frequency of
quads. That is cheating.

I'm having a hard time following your argument.

You state the machines are random but the quad frequency can be set. Those
are contradictory statements.

You state that you didn't call it cheating but some machines with the same
paytable pay out differently, not due to normal variance in results. That
would be cheating.

You also say that moving around is the best strategy because some machines
pay better than others. If they have the same paytable, their expected
values are the same. What you are saying is some machines are programmed to
pay differently from other machines with the same paytable. That would be
cheating.

And all of this without a single mentions of actual results.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links

#38

Quite irrelevant. You weren't suggesting thet the casino was exploiting some weakness in the RNG, you were alleging that they have programmed their video poker machines to not be random.

There is a saying that sums up how I feel about this entire discussion: "None are so blind as those who refuse to see".

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generation

Go to this web page about RNG. It might help you understand the pseudo-
randomness of VP.

#39

ditto

Marc Landry - Partner

613-723-2057 x15

Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design

57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2

<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca

···

From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of Neil
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:39 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generation

Go to this web page about RNG. It might help you understand the pseudo-
randomness of VP.

Quite irrelevant. You weren't suggesting thet the casino was exploiting some
weakness in the RNG, you were alleging that they have programmed their video
poker machines to not be random.

There is a saying that sums up how I feel about this entire discussion:
"None are so blind as those who refuse to see".

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#40

Marc Landry wrote ......

That means an individual casino within Ontario jurisdiction could set their machines higher if they chose to do so. Which means if they wanted, they could set the payback% on one Jacks or Better machine to 95% and another Jacks or Better machine at 85%. Which machine would you prefer to play? They have the same pay table!

AND if they follow govt minimum guidelines, they would not be "cheating".

Marc, if what you are saying above is that a 6/5 JOB can have an expected value of 95% and another 6/5 JOB machine can have an expected payback of 85%, that would certainly be cheating.

If a video poker machine can be 'set' to pay out differently than the paytable indicates, that is cheating. I'm not including the magic genie machines that aren't really video poker machines.

Part of the confusion might be that a Red, White and Blue slot machine can have the same 'pay table' as another Red, White and Blue slot machine and have different expected values. Slot machines can be set to different expected values. This is accomplished by a weighting factor assigned to each symbol. On the 92% version, the 3rd blue 7 ( for example) might come up more frequently that the on the 90% version. Slot machines and video poker machines are fundamentally different in this regard.

Your statement about the 85% minimum refers to the worst game they can put in the casino. For example, let's say they put in 6/5 JOB game and 2 pair pays 1 for 1 (push) instead of 2 for 1. That game would have an expected value of about 83% and would be cheating by the rule you quote above.

Two different 9/6 JOB machines can have different results but their expected value has to be the same or it is cheating.

Taking a different game, if Bill will flip coins with you and pay you $0.99 on the dollar for winning wagers ( 99% EV) and Frank will only pay you $0.98 on the dollar for winning wagers ( 98% EV), you may have a better return with Frank than Bill over a couple hundred coin flips. That doesn't mean that Bill is cheating. If,on the other hand, both Bill and Frank pay back $0.99 on the dollar and I do 10,000 coin flips with each one, my results are going to be pretty close.