woohoo! thought we'd seen the last of these . happy to report that Rideau Carlton Raceway near Ottawa has full pay $1 Pick'Em machines back again. They are the new, HD, Gamemakers. no problem getting a seat there earlier this week.
remember too that West of Toronto Mohawk Raceway has full pay Pick 'Em at $1, $2, and $5. on each machine there you can bet up to 10 units per hand too.
But they suck compared to the old ones!
Marc Landry - Partner
613-723-2057 x15
Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design
57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2
<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca
nicolasbello wrote:
woohoo! thought we'd seen the last of these . happy to report that Rideau
Carlton Raceway near Ottawa has full pay $1 Pick'Em machines back
again. They are the new, HD, Gamemakers. no problem getting a seat
there earlier this week. remember too that West of Toronto Mohawk
Raceway has full pay Pick 'Em at $1, $2, and $5. on each machine there
you can bet up to 10 units per hand too.
What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern machines?
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:
But they suck compared to the old ones!
Four of a kinds happen a lot less than before. Machines can be set to pay
out at different levels. The old Pick'ems used to be always full of regular
players parked there for hours. Now they stay away. Losing too much money.
Marc Landry - Partner
613-723-2057 x15
Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design
57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2
<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca
From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of Neil
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 10:47 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:
But they suck compared to the old ones!
What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern machines?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are expected to
deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen the
expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine would
return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as that.
They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
random card distribution is cheating.
On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@rogers.com> wrote:
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
"Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:
>
> But they suck compared to the old ones!What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern machines?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Its random but the machines can be set to pay out 4's every 500 hands on
average or every 5,000 hands . It is not random. Ever notice that you go up
for awhile, then float, then go down quickly over 15 minutes. We're talking
computer chips here. Reel you in then let out some line. Reel you in and let
out the line some more.
I've been playing for years. Why in Vegas, is it hard to get 4's but easier
to get the occasional Royal. Why is it in Ontario, it easy to get 4's and
impossible to get Royals?
Do your homework. In Vegas, $1 slot machines on average return 94.5%. In
Ontario its 92.5%. That difference is big.
Marc Landry
] On Behalf Of Stephen Clerk
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:12 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton
I'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are expected to
deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen the
expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine would
return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as that.
They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
random card distribution is cheating.
On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@rogers.com> wrote:
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
"Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:
>
> But they suck compared to the old ones!What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern machines?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
Well what you are suggesting is cheating. If they want to set the hold on slot machines or VP machines they do it by adjusting the payout schedule, which is available for all to see, not by manipulating the software inside the machine to deal the cards in some non-random manner.
This would be the same as putting loaded dice into their craps games to favour the don't pass line, since most players bet the pass line or introducing marked cards on their blackjack tables and having their dealers deal seconds.
I imagine that quads and royals come with the same frequency whether you play in Vegas, Ontario or Timbuktu. Well maybe not Timbuktu.
Cheers
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:
Its random but the machines can be set to pay out 4's every 500 hands on
average or every 5,000 hands . It is not random. Ever notice that you go up
for awhile, then float, then go down quickly over 15 minutes. We're talking
computer chips here. Reel you in then let out some line. Reel you in and let
out the line some more.I've been playing for years. Why in Vegas, is it hard to get 4's but easier
to get the occasional Royal. Why is it in Ontario, it easy to get 4's and
impossible to get Royals?Do your homework. In Vegas, $1 slot machines on average return 94.5%. In
Ontario its 92.5%. That difference is big.Marc Landry
] On Behalf Of Stephen Clerk
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:12 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau CarltonI'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are expected to
deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen the
expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine would
return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as that.
They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
random card distribution is cheating.On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
> >
> > But they suck compared to the old ones!
>
> What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern machines?
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
I will repeat. It is not random. Any given machine will return 94% to a
player or whatever they set it at over a long cycle. It is not cheating. It
is just controlled payouts over a period of time.
This is how the slot machine manufacturers sell their products to casinos.
They guarantee a given machine will return 6% over a given period of time in
a consistent fashion. Casinos are in the business to make money. The last
thing they want is uncertainty.
Its all a matter of you getting on a machine just before it is due to pay
out. The only advantage you have is to leave the machine early if it is on a
down cycle. Those who pump in hundreds of dollars on one machine are doing
what the casinos plan on.
Ever notice that once you get 4 to a royal and miss it, the machine starts
going downhill right away.
That's programming. They know you can't resist to keep playing because you
were close.
Marc
Well what you are suggesting is cheating. If they want to set the hold on
slot machines or VP machines they do it by adjusting the payout schedule,
which is available for all to see, not by manipulating the software inside
the machine to deal the cards in some non-random manner.
This would be the same as putting loaded dice into their craps games to
favour the don't pass line, since most players bet the pass line or
introducing marked cards on their blackjack tables and having their dealers
deal seconds.
I imagine that quads and royals come with the same frequency whether you
play in Vegas, Ontario or Timbuktu. Well maybe not Timbuktu.
Cheers
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:
Its random but the machines can be set to pay out 4's every 500 hands on
average or every 5,000 hands . It is not random. Ever notice that you go
up
for awhile, then float, then go down quickly over 15 minutes. We're
talking
computer chips here. Reel you in then let out some line. Reel you in and
let
out the line some more.
I've been playing for years. Why in Vegas, is it hard to get 4's but
easier
to get the occasional Royal. Why is it in Ontario, it easy to get 4's and
impossible to get Royals?Do your homework. In Vegas, $1 slot machines on average return 94.5%. In
Ontario its 92.5%. That difference is big.Marc Landry
] On Behalf Of Stephen Clerk
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:12 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton
I'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are expected
to
deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen the
expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine
would
return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as that.
They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
random card distribution is cheating.>
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
> >
> > But they suck compared to the old ones!
>
> What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern machines?
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@...> wrote:
Stephen is right. Marc is wrong.
If a casino wants a videopoker machine to have a certain long term return, they pick a game or games with the paytable that produces it.
And, they don't hide it - the paytable is right there on the front of the machine.
No non-random manipulation of individual hand results is needed (or is legal)
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:
I will repeat. It is not random. Any given machine will return 94% to a
player or whatever they set it at over a long cycle. It is not cheating. It
is just controlled payouts over a period of time.
In Vegas the gaming law states that any machine representing a card game MUST be random. The casino nor the manufacture of the machines can't place a hold on them or set them to pay out at a certain percentage. They must mimic a real dealer as closely as possible with a computer.
The payout is based on the pay scale.
Canada, Indian Casino's and Racino's and Casinos all over the USA are not all subject to this law. The Law in Vegas is set by the Nevada gaming Assoc. Laws for VP machines very everywhere else.
Here in NY Racino's the VP is considered a slot machine and is set to pay, by law, 92%. No matter what the pay scale claims the machine is programmed to return 92%
Some of the machines actually have an Angel that comes out after the hand is plated and gives you bonuses.
This feature is used because some idiots that play have no idea what they are doing and this feature insures the machine is paying the percentages it's programmed to.
Indian Casinos can do whatever they want with the machines
I'm not sure about Canadian law but based on play when I was there they are treated as slot machines.
This is something you can verify if you take the time to check it out.
Unless Canada treats VP differently than slots that full pay Pickem is nothing more than a 92% slot machine
It may take some time but you should be able to find out.
If they are treated as slots by the Government and the Casino is allowed to place a "hold" on the machine you are no better off playing Pickem or Blazing 7s
All slot machines are "random" you have to find out if the places you play follow Vegas gaming laws for machines resembling card games.
Something totally different from "random"
Good luck.
From: Marc Landry
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:51 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Cc: 'Nenad Lelicanin'
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton
Its random but the machines can be set to pay out 4's every 500 hands on
average or every 5,000 hands . It is not random. Ever notice that you go up
for awhile, then float, then go down quickly over 15 minutes. We're talking
computer chips here. Reel you in then let out some line. Reel you in and let
out the line some more.
I've been playing for years. Why in Vegas, is it hard to get 4's but easier
to get the occasional Royal. Why is it in Ontario, it easy to get 4's and
impossible to get Royals?
Do your homework. In Vegas, $1 slot machines on average return 94.5%. In
Ontario its 92.5%. That difference is big.
Marc Landry
] On Behalf Of Stephen Clerk
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:12 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton
I'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are expected to
deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen the
expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine would
return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as that.
They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
random card distribution is cheating.
On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@rogers.com> wrote:
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
"Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:
>
> But they suck compared to the old ones!What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern machines?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That is the case in Ontario as well.
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Ghysel" <tghysel@...> wrote:
In Vegas the gaming law states that any machine representing a card game MUST be random. The casino nor the manufacture of the machines can't place a hold on them or set them to pay out at a certain percentage. They must mimic a real dealer as closely as possible with a computer.
i was there for just a short while but had no trouble connecting for quads...
Its random but the machines can be set to pay out 4's every 500 hands on
average or every 5,000 hands . It is not random.
Mark, look at what you wrote. Machines are random but they can be set to pay a certain number of quads. Those 2 statements are contradictory.
Then you say they are not random.
Do your homework. In Vegas, $1 slot machines on average return 94.5%. In
Ontario its 92.5%. That difference is big.
Where are you getting the 94.5% return from dollar slots in Las Vegas? That number seems pretty low. Casino Player publishes returns for slot machines in Las Vegas and they are generally in the 97 - 98 % range.
Have you done any tracking of your play on the pick 'em machines? Quad cycle is about 2300 hands. Going 3 cycles with hitting quads will happen about 5% of the time. So, you can play 7000 hands with no quads and that is not an unusual event.
Track your play for 10,000 hands and report the results. That is still a small sample size but it will at least give you some information about the game you are playing.
Just saying the machines pay less than they used to with no evidence to back it up doesn't really mean anything.
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:
First you do agree, unlike others, that it is not totally random. The
randomness means quads can happen at any time. The non-randomness means the
machines are programmed over a period of time to pay out a specific amount.
I refer to bad machines at Rideau Carleton Raceway Casino - let me explain
For at least 5 years, there were 8 Game King VP machines with $1 Pick'em on
them as well as Double Bonus which I prefer. Most nights these machines were
full of players and you had to wait until someone got off.
Then they introduced new Bally VP machines with Pick'em on the other side of
the casino. I tried them. It felt all you would do is go downhill. All the
regular players stuck to the old machines instead of gravitating to the new
ones. Frustrated, the casino management left the old machines there, but
removed the Pick'em choice.
For awhile, the Pick'em crowd went to the new machines. Its been at least a
year since the new machines have been installed. On any given night, the
machines sit mostly idle. If they were the same as the old machines, what
happened to all the regular players?
I can only speculate, but like me, they probably noticed their money going
straight down the tubes, so they don't play there. That's what I mean by
"they suck" Compared to what used to be.
Any Rideau Pick'em regulars out there wish to verify my experience?
Marc Landry - Partner
613-723-2057 x15
Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design
57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2
<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca
From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of johnnyzee48127
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 9:21 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:
Its random but the machines can be set to pay out 4's every 500 hands on
average or every 5,000 hands . It is not random.
Mark, look at what you wrote. Machines are random but they can be set to pay
a certain number of quads. Those 2 statements are contradictory.
Then you say they are not random.
Do your homework. In Vegas, $1 slot machines on average return 94.5%. In
Ontario its 92.5%. That difference is big.
Where are you getting the 94.5% return from dollar slots in Las Vegas? That
number seems pretty low. Casino Player publishes returns for slot machines
in Las Vegas and they are generally in the 97 - 98 % range.
Have you done any tracking of your play on the pick 'em machines? Quad cycle
is about 2300 hands. Going 3 cycles with hitting quads will happen about 5%
of the time. So, you can play 7000 hands with no quads and that is not an
unusual event.
Track your play for 10,000 hands and report the results. That is still a
small sample size but it will at least give you some information about the
game you are playing.
Just saying the machines pay less than they used to with no evidence to back
it up doesn't really mean anything.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Impossible to get royals? Hardly.
Over the past seven and a half years, my wife and I have combined for a total of 113 royal flushes while playing in Ontario (at Rama). Based on total hands played of just under 4.4 million, the average number of hands per royal flush is around 39,000, which is a little better tnan one might expect.
Quite frankly, I think forming an opinion as to the randomness (i.e. "fairness") of the machines on the basis of longer term experiences such as ours has much more validity than reliance on poor short term results. For example we have had numerous cold streaks over that period of play (including a 220,000 hand royalless spell for me). Over a longer period, however, these cold streaks are counterbalanced by the good ones.
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:
I've been playing for years. Why in Vegas, is it hard to get 4's but easier
to get the occasional Royal. Why is it in Ontario, it easy to get 4's and
impossible to get Royals?
First you do agree, unlike others, that it is not totally random. The
randomness means quads can happen at any time. The non-randomness means the
machines are programmed over a period of time to pay out a specific amount.
Marc, without getting into the pseudo random argument, what you are saying above is still contradictory.
Let's get down to the basics. When you hit the deal button, 5 cards are selected. The first card selected is equally likely to be any of the 52 cards. That card is not determined by any previous dealt hands or results. It is determined by the rng algo inside the machine. So, card #1 is selected. Now, card number 2 is selected from the remaining 51 cards. Likewise the next 3 cards are selected. So, we have our 5 card hand. This 5 card hand is not determined by the previous dealt hands or previous results. That is, if the current hand is Ac 4c 2h 9d Td, the next hand dealt has a 1 in 52 chance of having Ac as the first card. This is what is meant by randomly dealing the cards.
The quad frequency is determined by how well I play. I can pick cards in such a way that I decrease my chances of getting quads. If I'm dealt 4c 5c 4h 7h and I pick the 7h, I decrease my chance of getting a quad. This has nothing to do with randomness.
How do you think the quad frequency is altered by the machine? If they pick cards randomly, does the machine reject a certain number of quads?
All the information you have provided is non specific. 'Quads don't seem to happen as often as they used to' is way different than 'In 2009 I had 400 quads in 1,000,000 hands played and in 2010 I have had 200 quads in 1,000,000 hands dealt'. Without some numbers to back up the claim, it's impossible to determine if the claim is valid.
The paytable determines the best payback you can get for a given machine. For the full pay PE machines, this is about 99.95%. Your playing ability will determine if you reach that value. There is also a range of returns based on the statistics of the game.
I refer to bad machines at Rideau Carleton Raceway Casino - let me explain
For at least 5 years, there were 8 Game King VP machines with $1 Pick'em on
them as well as Double Bonus which I prefer. Most nights these machines were
full of players and you had to wait until someone got off.Then they introduced new Bally VP machines with Pick'em on the other side of
the casino. I tried them. It felt all you would do is go downhill. All the
regular players stuck to the old machines instead of gravitating to the new
ones. Frustrated, the casino management left the old machines there, but
removed the Pick'em choice.For awhile, the Pick'em crowd went to the new machines. Its been at least a
year since the new machines have been installed. On any given night, the
machines sit mostly idle. If they were the same as the old machines, what
happened to all the regular players?I can only speculate, but like me, they probably noticed their money going
straight down the tubes, so they don't play there. That's what I mean by
"they suck" Compared to what used to be.Any Rideau Pick'em regulars out there wish to verify my experience?
Marc, without any numbers to back it up, it's very hard to accept this premise.
Quads happen on average every 2361 hands. In 23,610 hands the average number of quads is 10. 22% of the time you will have 7 or fewer quads. 21% of the time you will have 13 or more quads. 43% of the time you will be at least 3 quads away from the expected value. 3 quads different is $1800 on $168,000 coin in or over a 1% change. So, almost half the time, you will be more than 1% away from the expected value just from the quad contribution.
Long term data would be very helpful to try and prove your assertion.
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:
From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of johnnyzee48127
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 9:21 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
>
> Its random but the machines can be set to pay out 4's every 500 hands on
> average or every 5,000 hands . It is not random.Mark, look at what you wrote. Machines are random but they can be set to pay a certain number of quads. Those 2 statements are contradictory.
Then you say they are not random.
> Do your homework. In Vegas, $1 slot machines on average return 94.5%. In Ontario its 92.5%. That difference is big.
>
>
Where are you getting the 94.5% return from dollar slots in Las Vegas? That number seems pretty low. Casino Player publishes returns for slot machines in Las Vegas and they are generally in the 97 - 98 % range.Have you done any tracking of your play on the pick 'em machines? Quad cycle is about 2300 hands. Going 3 cycles with hitting quads will happen about 5% of the time. So, you can play 7000 hands with no quads and that is not an unusual event.
Track your play for 10,000 hands and report the results. That is still a small sample size but it will at least give you some information about the game you are playing.
Just saying the machines pay less than they used to with no evidence to back it up doesn't really mean anything.
This seemed to be my experience, too, when I used to play at Woodbine. The old Bally Game-Makers were ALWAYS full of people playing. And VP machines can be set to pay out at different levels (payback percentage) by changing the pay-tables.
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:
Four of a kinds happen a lot less than before. Machines can be set to pay
out at different levels. The old Pick'ems used to be always full of regular
players parked there for hours. Now they stay away. Losing too much money.Marc Landry - Partner
613-723-2057 x15
Accurate - Strategic Web and Print Design
57 Auriga Drive, Suite 100, Ottawa, ON K2E 8B2
<http://www.accurate.ca> www.accurate.ca
From: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_Can…@…com]
On Behalf Of Neil
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 10:47 AM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau Carlton--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com> , "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
>
> But they suck compared to the old ones!What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern machines?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From what I know, this is true.
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Clerk <sclerk@...> wrote:
I'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are expected to
deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen the
expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine would
return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as that.
They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
random card distribution is cheating.On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
> >
> > But they suck compared to the old ones!
>
> What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern machines?
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sounds like you're talking about "hot" and "cold" streaks, here, which incidentally, are CHARACTERISTIC FEATURES of randomness.
The Minimum payback percentage for all slot machines (including VP)in Ontario has to be set at 85% by law. Casinos, of course, can set a higher percentage if they wish. Not sure where you got 92.5% from. Could not find that stat from my research.
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Landry" <landry@...> wrote:
Its random but the machines can be set to pay out 4's every 500 hands on
average or every 5,000 hands . It is not random. Ever notice that you go up
for awhile, then float, then go down quickly over 15 minutes. We're talking
computer chips here. Reel you in then let out some line. Reel you in and let
out the line some more.I've been playing for years. Why in Vegas, is it hard to get 4's but easier
to get the occasional Royal. Why is it in Ontario, it easy to get 4's and
impossible to get Royals?Do your homework. In Vegas, $1 slot machines on average return 94.5%. In
Ontario its 92.5%. That difference is big.Marc Landry
] On Behalf Of Stephen Clerk
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:12 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau CarltonI'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are expected to
deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen the
expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine would
return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as that.
They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
random card distribution is cheating.On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
> >
> > But they suck compared to the old ones!
>
> What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern machines?
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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In Vegas the gaming law states that any machine representing a card game MUST be random. The casino nor the manufacture of the machines can't place a hold on them or set them to pay out at a certain percentage. They must mimic a real dealer as closely as possible with a computer.
This is the Case in Ontario, too:
Section 23.1.2 of the regulations state: The RNG must be capable of generating all possible game outcomes (winning and losing combinations)in each play.
Also in Section 23.1.5 The probabilities of game outcomes in live games must be preserved (the same) in electronic games (e.g. card games).
Some of the machines actually have an Angel that comes out after the hand is plated and gives you bonuses.
This feature is used because some idiots that play have no idea what they are doing and this feature insures the machine is paying the percentages it's programmed to.
This is not a slot machine per se but what is know as a VLT (Video Lottery Terminal) and are NOT currently allowed in Ontario. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Lottery_Terminal)
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Ghysel" <tghysel@...> wrote:
In Vegas the gaming law states that any machine representing a card game MUST be random. The casino nor the manufacture of the machines can't place a hold on them or set them to pay out at a certain percentage. They must mimic a real dealer as closely as possible with a computer.
The payout is based on the pay scale.
Canada, Indian Casino's and Racino's and Casinos all over the USA are not all subject to this law. The Law in Vegas is set by the Nevada gaming Assoc. Laws for VP machines very everywhere else.
Here in NY Racino's the VP is considered a slot machine and is set to pay, by law, 92%. No matter what the pay scale claims the machine is programmed to return 92%
Some of the machines actually have an Angel that comes out after the hand is plated and gives you bonuses.
This feature is used because some idiots that play have no idea what they are doing and this feature insures the machine is paying the percentages it's programmed to.
Indian Casinos can do whatever they want with the machines
I'm not sure about Canadian law but based on play when I was there they are treated as slot machines.
This is something you can verify if you take the time to check it out.
Unless Canada treats VP differently than slots that full pay Pickem is nothing more than a 92% slot machine
It may take some time but you should be able to find out.
If they are treated as slots by the Government and the Casino is allowed to place a "hold" on the machine you are no better off playing Pickem or Blazing 7s
All slot machines are "random" you have to find out if the places you play follow Vegas gaming laws for machines resembling card games.
Something totally different from "random"Good luck.
From: Marc Landry
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:51 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Cc: 'Nenad Lelicanin'
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau CarltonIts random but the machines can be set to pay out 4's every 500 hands on
average or every 5,000 hands . It is not random. Ever notice that you go up
for awhile, then float, then go down quickly over 15 minutes. We're talking
computer chips here. Reel you in then let out some line. Reel you in and let
out the line some more.I've been playing for years. Why in Vegas, is it hard to get 4's but easier
to get the occasional Royal. Why is it in Ontario, it easy to get 4's and
impossible to get Royals?Do your homework. In Vegas, $1 slot machines on average return 94.5%. In
Ontario its 92.5%. That difference is big.Marc Landry
] On Behalf Of Stephen Clerk
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:12 PM
To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Full Pay $1 Pick'Em @ Rideau CarltonI'm not an expert at VP but it seems to me that all machines are expected to
deal the cards randomly. Therefore all types of hands should be seen the
expected number of times. If its a full pay schedule then the machine would
return whats expected, anything else would be cheating, as simple as that.
They can change the schedules to whatever they like, but to change the
random card distribution is cheating.On 17 November 2010 10:47, Neil <nembree@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE_Canada%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Marc Landry" <landry@> wrote:
> >
> > But they suck compared to the old ones!
>
> What is there to "suck" about full pay $1 pick'em on modern machines?
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]