vpFREE2 Forums

Fences, Polls, and Humble Opinions...

#1

The interesting thing about "Bob" consulting for casinos, is what
could he possibly tell them that they don't already know. Is casino
management that dim witted that they can't add fractions that sum
over 1.0 e.g. .997 (game e.v.) + .002 (bb cash) + .006 (same day cash
w/ multiplier) gee that sums over 1.0 we might have a problem with
advantage players! I don't really see if it matters that much
if "Bob" plays both sides of the fence or even if Bob Dance(r)s on
the fence.

There is a true win/win situations for both casinos and players and
that involves casino comps. There are many things a casino can offer
the recreational gambler, that costs the casino less than what the
player would value the comp. This is the territory where win/win
exists and probably where the final state where video poker will end
up, why even bother with 100+% games if enough advantage players
catch-on and in effect drive out the non-advantage players. The
casino can comp me a nice room that I might easily value at over $100
a night, but only costs them, from a cost accounting approach not
necessarily an opportunity cost approach, at only $25 a night. This
gives the casino and player $75 in real value to be split between
them, and both are winners. How about a comp to a nice steakhouse
that a player may value at $200 but only costs the casino $100. The
possibilities is endless. The casino could buy some interesting gifts
for patrons, in bulk, and pass this cost/ value savings on to the
valued players.

It does seem like the casinos have recently gone overboard in
reducing cash-back and comps, I say reducing cash back is okay, even
eliminate it, that will get rid of the pesky "professional fleas"
just crank-up the comps! As a recreational player visiting Las Vegas,
I'd much rather receive $100 in comps, that I value at $100, than
receive $50 in cash, this is probably not true for the "pro" if he
can only convert that $100 comp to $30 cash.

To be more efficient in our praise for the administrator, I propose
we set one day a year aside for posting praise messages for the
administrator, perhaps the first or last day of the year would be
most appropriate. Those lacking the inclination or writing skills
could merely repost other members kind words with a"AMEN" or perhaps
a Rush Limbaugh "DITTO" attached.

I am glad to see that many posters have become Less Humble in their
opinions, no more IMHO, just IMO. The next step is to realize that
IMO is completely unnecessary, in that facts and opinions are readily
distinguishable, IMO!

thymos_one
Casino Comps
New Group Dedicated to Tracking Casino Comps
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/casino_comps/

#2

<<Is casino
management that dim witted that they can't add fractions that sum
over 1.0 e.g. .997 (game e.v.) + .002 (bb cash) + .006 (same day cash
w/ multiplier) gee that sums over 1.0 we might have a problem with
advantage players! >>

Brad and I have made hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years taking advantage of just these very situations. Unfortunately casino management is getting smarter every day - and I will admit that I am at least a small part of the reason for this - I, and all the writers who came before me and will continue after me. Many casino executives use all the resources we advantage players use.

However, we players can not be selfish. Although a few math-savvy VP pioneers "figured it all out" before there were any published resources, most of us started on the path of skill because we read something or used a product that someone else had brought out. You can't put a genie back in the bottle and say, "Okay, now that I have learned all these math facts and playing tricks, I want everyone to stop publishing all this information because it is also making the casino executives too smart and they are taking counter-measures!"

We players just have to work harder in this cat-and-mouse game. The sky isn't falling yet. There are still more good plays around than I have the time to take advantage of. No, not nearly as many really juicy %'s but enough to grind out a profit. It is definitely a grinder's VP world today. But then it really mostly always was - not just in VP, but in all gambling endeavors where you could find an edge. Gambling is rarely a get-rich-quick activity.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards.
  NEW - Blackjack Strategy Cards +
              Updated Second Edition of
             "The Frugal Gambler."

#3

"thymos_one" <thymos_one@y...> wrote:

Is casino management that dim witted that they can't add
fractions that sum over 1.0 e.g. .997 (game e.v.) + .002
(bb cash) + .006 (same day cash w/ multiplier) gee that
sums over 1.0 we might have a problem with advantage players!

My disclaimer is that I worked in Vegas 15 years ago, & that I never
made it to the high-class casinos (my career as a dealer topped out
at "Slots-A-Fun"). But based on my experience... yes, casino
management can be surprisingly dim witted. I was amazed to be dealing
at blackjack tables where huge amounts were won & lost, & none of the
bosses in charge even knew basic blackjack strategy. They were more
likelt to be in thrall of rank superstitions, like "if the player is
winning a lot, change the way you shuffle."

I could only assume that casinos were so profitable, that they were
basically buildings filled with machines that did nothing but make
money 24/7, that they could be managed by people without much of a
mathematical clue, & still make a profit.

It is true that if casino management remains stupid, they may
overlook certain opportunities off which I can profit. But I
ethically don't like to wish for anyone to be stupid, so now I wish
that they're smart enough to offer VP games that will allow them to
make their profit from unskilled players, while accepting the fact
that fleas like me getting free vacations is a small price to pay.

(Yes, I know, that my free vacations are dependent on the masses of
video poker players remaining stupid, thus providing the casino with
the profit they don't make off me. I suppose ethically I must wish
for all gamblers to stop being stupid. Maybe I can wish for them to
continue losing, but gain wisdom in the process? In any case, it
seems like this is like the Buddhist vow to save all beings from
suffering; one knows it will take infinite time to actually come
true.)

Stuart (RandomStu)
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/mypage.htm

#4

My thoughts from Jean Scott's post below....

Some casino executives are using the same information we have and are trying to cut out ANY advantage. I heard it once said that some casinos will spend $10 to keep any player from having a $5 advantage. IF consultants can help the casino executive see the foolishness of this approach then I can see how consultants might help the average VP player. If consultants merely give more ammunition to executives about ways they are being "beat" that they may not have considered, then it is not an advantage to the average VP player.

We have seen many of the counter measures taken by casinos over the past years. They perceived that the knowledge possessed by advantage VP players was really hurting them. SO they shot the goose and threw the baby out with the bath water. Example: The Rio. Nothing remotely playable for the average advantage VP player. (NYNY is getting close as well)

However what casinos may have discovered by accident is that the few customers they lost really didn't matter. There were enough people willing to play anything. We see it everyday at many locations. Paytables were irrelevant. The majority of players really don't care (or know).

Many casinos are existing and excelling with nothing that the majority of people on this forum would even consider playing. What are the reasons that a casino would want to install good paytables?

Yes, there are still some good plays out there. However advantage players are (sometimes) starting to trip over each other playing them. As the number of good machines decrease and advantage players "compress" their play on those machines they will become losers for the casino and the paytables reduced. ( Three .25 FPDW machines at MSS). And the cycle will continue.

Hopefully, the consultants, whoever they might be, can alleviate and delay some of this inevitable trend.

SNIP

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz>

Many casino executives use all the resources we
advantage players use.

However, we players can not be selfish. Although a few math-savvy VP
pioneers "figured it all out" before there were any published resources,
most of us started on the path of skill because we read something or used a
product that someone else had brought out. You can't put a genie back in
the bottle and say, "Okay, now that I have learned all these math facts and
playing tricks, I want everyone to stop publishing all this information
because it is also making the casino executives too smart and they are
taking counter-measures!"

We players just have to work harder in this cat-and-mouse game. The sky
isn't falling yet. There are still more good plays around than I have the
time to take advantage of. No, not nearly as many really juicy %'s but
enough to grind out a profit. It is definitely a grinder's VP world today.
But then it really mostly always was - not just in VP, but in all gambling
endeavors where you could find an edge. Gambling is rarely a get-rich-quick
activity.

#5

We have seen many of the counter measures taken by casinos over

the past years. They perceived that the knowledge possessed by
advantage VP players was really hurting them. SO they shot the goose
and threw the baby out with the bath water. Example: The Rio.
Nothing remotely playable for the average advantage VP player. >>>

However what casinos may have discovered by accident is that the

few customers they lost really didn't matter. There were enough
people willing to play anything. We see it everyday at many
locations. Paytables were irrelevant. The majority of players really
don't care (or know).>>>

Even when they "know", they often don't care. My favorite example of
this is in Chicago at Harrahs...make that Resorts they have a neon
flashing sign pointing out their 12 best machines in the casino, all
over 99% payback NSUD, 9/6 JOB ... directly across from thses
machines are the identical games with inferior pay-schedules...the 99%
+ games are the least played games in the casino! When I have asked
people why not play the same game with a better pay-schedule the
reply is more often than not...I've been lucky on this machine!

However advantage players are (sometimes) starting to trip over

each other playing them. As the number of good machines decrease and
advantage players "compress" their play on those machines they will
become losers for the casino and the paytables reduced. ( Three .25
FPDW machines at MSS). And the cycle will continue. Hopefully, the
consultants, whoever they might be, can alleviate and delay some of
this inevitable trend.>>>

The arguement for having 100%+ machines is not that strong, since
most people don't seem to care, and those that do care are the ones
that can hurt you. However, I do find it amazing how much horrible
stuff is in Las Vegas, even at the local's casinos where the players
are suppose to know better.

I have this theory that this is truly counter-productive for the
casinos. I would bet that most visitors to Las Vegas are budget
constrained and not time constrained when it comes to gambling.
Therefore all the casino accomplishes by having terrible pay-
schedules is beating the customer out of their money quicker and
giving them a worse playing experience. Since casinos in LV are not
limited to the number of gaming spots, the supply of video poker
machines far greater than the demand for machines. I have never seen
a LV casino with over 50% of the machines being played, I'm sure this
does happen, but I very seriously doubt they ever have 100% capacity.

On any given session the experience of playing a 99% game versus a
97% game is indistinguishable. But, when you aggregate this play over
a few thousand players on any given day, the "group experience" would
be quite different.

Perhaps some of the consultants on here could explain this to their
casino clients, another win/win situation. While you at it, please
explain the comp win/win from my previous post. Wouldn't it be nice
to be able to walk into a casino and see several hundred machines
with NSUD, 9/6 JOB, 9/6 bonus deluxe, 8/5 bonus in all denominations
and all game varieties, spin, super times pay, multi-strike, 3-5-10-
50-100 play.

Now that would truly be a service to the video poker community.

thymos_one
Casino Comps
New Group Dedicated to Tracking Casino Comps
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/casino_comps/

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ednar" <ednar@k...> wrote:

#6

thymos....
Sadly you are right. Most people do not care or know. There really is little demand for quality games except by the people who have the knowledge to beat them. Supply and Demand..... I used to try and teach people about paytables and show them what to ask for. I QUIT doing this.... (1) If I am successful it gives more competition for the few existing good machines and (2) I made a few converts but I was rarely successful in getting anyone to understand. I irritated people more than I succeeded. We have discussed this before but the ideal situation is for everyone to demand that casinos put in great paytables, refuse to play any machine if they do not and play badly when they do play. This would create the greatest opportunity for the advantage player who does properly play the machines.

I seriously doubt that the typical advantage player is hurting the casino.
As advantage .25/.50/ (and sometimes $1) players (fleas) we still go through considerable losing streaks and the amount we end up ahead for the year is hardly above minimum wage. Of course some casinos want it all. Every bit of our bankroll. 100%. That is their business. And of course we want their money as well. To some extent it is a war or a battle....

Perhaps the $5 and up players are (or historically have) made an impact on the casinos bottom line. Those opportunities (although they still exist) are now quite limited. My guess is that the pros who can afford to play the sufficient coin in to compete in the promotions at the Palms will theoretically impact the casinos bottom line far more than the accumulated typical players.

If I was a casino owner I would put in garbage paytables. I would then do all kinds of promotions, give out regular weekly gifts of minimal cost (that I could also write off on taxes), do lots of contests, send out small free play mailers, etc. I would create a dependent populace and perpetuate the illusion of winning (or of at least getting something back in return for my money). I really would not anyone to win except those few who were LUCKY and then I would market the daylights out of those instances. I would emphasize the luck aspect since we know it is not skill.....

People come to Las Vegas EXPECTING to lose. Their main goal is to have fun and maybe win. However they do not expect to win.

The members of this group are not typical.

SNIP.

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "thymos_one" <thymos_one@yahoo.com>

The arguement for having 100%+ machines is not that strong, since
most people don't seem to care, and those that do care are the ones
that can hurt you. However, I do find it amazing how much horrible
stuff is in Las Vegas, even at the local's casinos where the players
are suppose to know better.

I have this theory that this is truly counter-productive for the
casinos. I would bet that most visitors to Las Vegas are budget
constrained and not time constrained when it comes to gambling.
Therefore all the casino accomplishes by having terrible pay-
schedules is beating the customer out of their money quicker and
giving them a worse playing experience. Since casinos in LV are not
limited to the number of gaming spots, the supply of video poker
machines far greater than the demand for machines. I have never seen
a LV casino with over 50% of the machines being played, I'm sure this
does happen, but I very seriously doubt they ever have 100% capacity.

#7

What you are describing below pretty much sums up Harrah's present
philosophy of marketing from what I have seen.

Ednar wrote:

If I was a casino owner I would put in garbage paytables. I would then do
all kinds of promotions, give out regular weekly gifts of minimal cost (that
I could also write off on taxes), do lots of contests, send out small free
play mailers, etc. I would create a dependent populace and perpetuate the
illusion of winning (or of at least getting something back in return for my
money). I really would not anyone to win except those few who were LUCKY and
then I would market the daylights out of those instances. I would emphasize
the luck aspect since we know it is not skill.....

People come to Las Vegas EXPECTING to lose. Their main goal is to have fun
and maybe win. However they do not expect to win.

The members of this group are not typical.

#8

have fun and maybe win. However they do not expect to win... The
members of this group are not typical.>>>

I think that's worth repeating, the members of this group are not
typical gamblers. This leads to our distorted view of the population of
video poker players. The percentage of "advantage" players is very
small. I would actually divide the group here in two: 1. those who play
for a true cash advantage (the smaller part of this group) 2. those
that play for a combined cash and comp advantage, I put myself in this
second category. This second category can be sustainable, since it can
be profitable for the casinos, if those consultants would only do their
job!

p.s. The Majestic Star just used the services of a outside consultant
this summer, the results, no more 5x point weeks just single days, more
often 3x than 5x. The $250 weekly cash back for .01 video poker players
is now in the $10-40 range. The final nail, the comps which were
seemingly unlimited have become downright stingy. Evidently the
consultants even left the hosts with some consultant gambling jargon, I
am an "inverted customer" in that my comps hugely outweigh my losses! I
was actually told the same thing at Trump, evidently they hired the
same consultant.

thymos_one
Casino Comps
New Group Dedicated to Tracking Casino Comps
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/casino_comps/

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ednar" <ednar@k...> wrote:

People come to Las Vegas EXPECTING to lose. Their main goal is to

#9

Bob Stupak did this years ago. In 1992, ads in the Sunday Paper for for
his Vegas World Casino ( now the Stratosphere) lured me from the wilds
of Maine to fabled Las Vegas with promises of instant wealth and wild
wanton women. Unfortunately my wife frowned on the latter and the
instant wealth never ever materialized. Nevertheless I had a grand time,
enjoyed losing every penny I had with me, and have been going back ever
since. Dick McK.

ednar wrote:

thymos....
Sadly you are right. Most people do not care or know. There really is
little
demand for quality games except by the people who have the knowledge
to beat
them. Supply and Demand.....

If I was a casino owner I would put in garbage paytables. I would then do
all kinds of promotions, give out regular weekly gifts of minimal cost
(that
I could also write off on taxes), do lots of contests, send out small
free
play mailers, etc. I would create a dependent populace and perpetuate the
illusion of winning (or of at least getting something back in return
for my
money). I really would not anyone to win except those few who were
LUCKY and
then I would market the daylights out of those instances. I would
emphasize
the luck aspect since we know it is not skill.....

From: "thymos_one" <thymos_one@yahoo.com>
SNIP.

> The arguement for having 100%+ machines is not that strong, since
> most people don't seem to care, and those that do care are the ones
> that can hurt you. However, I do find it amazing how much horrible
> stuff is in Las Vegas, even at the local's casinos where the players
> are suppose to know better.
>
> I have this theory that this is truly counter-productive for the
> casinos. I would bet that most visitors to Las Vegas are budget
> constrained and not time constrained when it comes to gambling.
> Therefore all the casino accomplishes by having terrible pay-
> schedules is beating the customer out of their money quicker and
> giving them a worse playing experience. Since casinos in LV are not
> limited to the number of gaming spots, the supply of video poker
> machines far greater than the demand for machines. I have never seen
> a LV casino with over 50% of the machines being played, I'm sure this
> does happen, but I very seriously doubt they ever have 100% capacity.

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···

----- Original Message -----

#10

Hey Dick Mck

Now there was a "casino" Complete with cigarette burns on rug all over
the place. Stupak had a players casino. I had friends who spent all
their bankroll in 1st 3 days of a week trip in Vegas. They cut out
coupons from paper for $10 free play every hour for I think 3 hours.
The hook was to get them in for 3 hours. They had no cash, so it was a
good deal for them. Armed with the 10 dollar plays times 3 they played
roulette; red and black. They took the win and played slots. With the
coupon cash and a nice slot wins they walked out of the casino a few
hours later with an $800 profit for each of them. It's a good example
of why we should use all of our coupons. By the way these three guys
were out of money again in a couple days. Had to wire home for cash.

Cheers...Jeep
.

Bob Stupak did this years ago. In 1992, ads in the Sunday Paper for

for

his Vegas World Casino ( now the Stratosphere) lured me from the

wilds

of Maine to fabled Las Vegas with promises of instant wealth and

wild

wanton women. Unfortunately my wife frowned on the latter and the
instant wealth never ever materialized. Nevertheless I had a grand

time,

enjoyed losing every penny I had with me, and have been going back

ever

···

.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Richard Mckenna <tmac2@l...> wrote:

since. Dick McK.

#11

p.s. The Majestic Star just used the services of a outside

consultant

this summer, the results, no more 5x point weeks just single days,

more

often 3x than 5x. The $250 weekly cash back for .01 video poker

players

is now in the $10-40 range. The final nail, the comps which were
seemingly unlimited have become downright stingy. Evidently the
consultants even left the hosts with some consultant gambling

jargon, I

am an "inverted customer" in that my comps hugely outweigh my

losses! I

was actually told the same thing at Trump, evidently they hired the
same consultant.

thymos_one
Casino Comps
New Group Dedicated to Tracking Casino Comps
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/casino_comps/

Hi there

"Inverted customer"; I like that. Trump Taj years ago had a cb
of .006. The casino was loaded with inverted customers. The casino
was making money and the stock was up. The high limit room was full,
both reel slots and video slots were playing. Now vp cb is about .001
for many vp. The property is not doing well and the high limit room
is empty even on weekend. There are a lots of factors that cause a
property to fail. Maybe sending the inverted customers down the road
along with many other customers may be a factor. I am sometime an
inverted customer and sometime a beat up customer. However, I travel
with slot players and table players. Many times one or two players
can change where group goes. That's why hamburger joints market to
kids. Kids rule. I wonder if vp players rule?

Everybody seems to forget how they got where they are. Sometime they
need leave the cusomer with at least a nickle.

Cheers.....Jeep

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "thymos_one" <thymos_one@y...> wrote:

#12

If I was a casino owner I would put in garbage paytables. I would

then do

all kinds of promotions, give out regular weekly gifts of minimal

cost (that

I could also write off on taxes), do lots of contests, send out

small free

play mailers, etc. I would create a dependent populace and

perpetuate the

illusion of winning (or of at least getting something back in

return for my

money). I really would not anyone to win except those few who were

LUCKY and

then I would market the daylights out of those instances. I would

emphasize

the luck aspect since we know it is not skill.....

Sounds exactly like Harrahs. :slight_smile:

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ednar" <ednar@k...> wrote:

#13

Ednar, I believe you've hit this nail squarely on the head. In the
recent STRICTLY SLOTS issue featuring their readers' votes for
various "Best OF" gaming categories, one of my favorite results is
the Rio winning for best vp in Las Vegas.

If the average reader of SS is that strikingly ignorant of the pay
tables that identify actually good vp, the real question, then, is
why any casino would ever offer any "playable" vp. I fear
we "advantage" players are about to join the official "Endangered
Species" list.

Pete

We have seen many of the counter measures taken by casinos over

the past

years. They perceived that the knowledge possessed by advantage VP

players

was really hurting them. SO they shot the goose and threw the baby

out with

the bath water. Example: The Rio. Nothing remotely playable for

the average

advantage VP player. (NYNY is getting close as well)

However what casinos may have discovered by accident is that the

few

customers they lost really didn't matter. There were enough people

willing

to play anything. We see it everyday at many locations. Paytables

were

irrelevant. The majority of players really don't care (or know).

Many casinos are existing and excelling with nothing that the

majority of

people on this forum would even consider playing. What are the

reasons that

···

a casino would want to install good paytables?

#14

Yes. And at least one other casino in LV follows this approach.

I received a private post from one individual telling me how shortsighted this approach is. This person thought I was seriously proposing this approach. I AM NOT.

It is my hope that the consultants, whoever they might be, will actually help casinos see the shortsightedness of their approach and make recommendations that help advantage players. (and I suppose indirectly at least, the casinos too.)

Here is a portion of my response to this private post to me.

···

********************************************
I was just being facetious. Actually we agree totally.

What I described is what XXXX casino is doing. It is almost their exact marketing plan. I have a friend who knows a person on the inside and this is what they are doing. They keep a few full pay machines but limit what a player can really earn and the level of damage they can cause the casino.

**********************************************************************

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Callahan" <jcallahan@neb.rr.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 5:39 AM
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Fences, Polls, and Humble Opinions...

What you are describing below pretty much sums up Harrah's present
philosophy of marketing from what I have seen.

#15

Sadly this is extremely short-sighted. I wonder who the consultant was.... It would be nice to know.

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "thymos_one" <thymos_one@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 9:48 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Was Fences, Polls, ...Now Atypical Group!

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ednar" <ednar@k...> wrote:

People come to Las Vegas EXPECTING to lose. Their main goal is to

have fun and maybe win. However they do not expect to win... The
members of this group are not typical.>>>

I think that's worth repeating, the members of this group are not
typical gamblers. This leads to our distorted view of the population of
video poker players. The percentage of "advantage" players is very
small. I would actually divide the group here in two: 1. those who play
for a true cash advantage (the smaller part of this group) 2. those
that play for a combined cash and comp advantage, I put myself in this
second category. This second category can be sustainable, since it can
be profitable for the casinos, if those consultants would only do their
job!

p.s. The Majestic Star just used the services of a outside consultant
this summer, the results, no more 5x point weeks just single days, more
often 3x than 5x. The $250 weekly cash back for .01 video poker players
is now in the $10-40 range. The final nail, the comps which were
seemingly unlimited have become downright stingy. Evidently the
consultants even left the hosts with some consultant gambling jargon, I
am an "inverted customer" in that my comps hugely outweigh my losses! I
was actually told the same thing at Trump, evidently they hired the
same consultant.

thymos_one
Casino Comps
New Group Dedicated to Tracking Casino Comps
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/casino_comps/

#16

I think we are on it. Notice how many old VP players are playing Texas Holdem? LOL

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "paisonvp" <paison@iclub.org>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 5:00 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Fences, Polls, and Humble Opinions...

Ednar, I believe you've hit this nail squarely on the head. In the
recent STRICTLY SLOTS issue featuring their readers' votes for
various "Best OF" gaming categories, one of my favorite results is
the Rio winning for best vp in Las Vegas.

If the average reader of SS is that strikingly ignorant of the pay
tables that identify actually good vp, the real question, then, is
why any casino would ever offer any "playable" vp. I fear
we "advantage" players are about to join the official "Endangered
Species" list.

Pete

#17

Sadly this is extremely short-sighted. I wonder who the consultant

was....

It would be nice to know.

It certainly would! No answers or denials yet? The silence is
deafening.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ednar" <ednar@k...> wrote:

#18

Could have been worse. They could have called you a "perverted customer."
:wink: I have a different problem at MS. I don't ask for much because they
don't have much I want.

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
thymos_one
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 11:49 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Was Fences, Polls, …Now Atypical Group!

p.s. The Majestic Star just used the services of a outside consultant
this summer, the results, no more 5x point weeks just single days, more
often 3x than 5x. The $250 weekly cash back for .01 video poker players
is now in the $10-40 range. The final nail, the comps which were
seemingly unlimited have become downright stingy. Evidently the
consultants even left the hosts with some consultant gambling jargon, I
am an "inverted customer" in that my comps hugely outweigh my losses! I
was actually told the same thing at Trump, evidently they hired the
same consultant.

#19

A good argument against popular "best of polls." Casino Player. LVRJ. I'm
always amused by the results.

It seems to me that two of the popular flavors to the people ringing the vp
death knell are:

Argument A. Knowledge of advantage vp has spread to such an extent that all
of the players are "killing" the good plays. This argument often is an
adjunct to criticism of the likes of BD or JS or even vpFREE, who are
selling/giving away all of the information that should be protected...
presumably protected for those who already have it.

Agument B. Most gamblers are so dense that they wouldn't know a rock if it
hit them between the eyes. They understand nothing of pay tables or
strategy and they stubbornly refuse to learn common information about the
product that they consume. They remain bovinely oblivious and are quite
happy to plug a 6/5 DDB game one coin at a time. Therefore, there is no
consumer demand that would drive a casino to better games.

Sometimes I see the same individuals making both arguments which is odd. I
am definitely in the latter camp, but so long as people are hypothesizing, I
would add that any reduction in vp inventory or advantage opportunity may be
driven by other forces in the gaming industry. Corporitization. Mergers.
Expansion. Technology. The business has changed a lot quickly and these
changes have an effect on the gambling product.

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
paisonvp
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 7:01 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Fences, Polls, and Humble Opinions…

Ednar, I believe you've hit this nail squarely on the head. In the
recent STRICTLY SLOTS issue featuring their readers' votes for
various "Best OF" gaming categories, one of my favorite results is
the Rio winning for best vp in Las Vegas.

If the average reader of SS is that strikingly ignorant of the pay
tables that identify actually good vp, the real question, then, is
why any casino would ever offer any "playable" vp. I fear
we "advantage" players are about to join the official "Endangered
Species" list.

Pete

We have seen many of the counter measures taken by casinos over

the past

years. They perceived that the knowledge possessed by advantage VP

players

was really hurting them. SO they shot the goose and threw the baby

out with

the bath water. Example: The Rio. Nothing remotely playable for

the average

advantage VP player. (NYNY is getting close as well)

However what casinos may have discovered by accident is that the

few

customers they lost really didn't matter. There were enough people

willing

to play anything. We see it everyday at many locations. Paytables

were

irrelevant. The majority of players really don't care (or know).

Many casinos are existing and excelling with nothing that the

majority of

people on this forum would even consider playing. What are the

reasons that

a casino would want to install good paytables?

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#20

Or, WORSE yet, an "inverted, perverted" player. i.e. One who is too
lucky in the casino, and also in bed with various inanimate objects!
-Babe-

···

--------------------------------------------------
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler" <omnibibulous1@c...> wrote:

Could have been worse. They could have called you a "perverted
customer." :wink: ......................
Chandler

-----------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
thymos_one wrote:
...........Evidently the consultants even left the hosts with some
consultant gambling jargon, I am an "inverted customer" in that my
comps hugely outweigh my losses!..................