teaching there otherwise...........
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:
Of course they will let me teach Joker Wild. I wouldn't be
==============================================
Will FPKBJW be available in the new Bob Dancer machines, in TITO
format? Or will students who wish to practice what you teach have to
play on the old, slow, dirty, sticky-button coin-droppers?
~Babe~
I was thinking the same thing, but thought it better if someone else
would ask. I doubt it, though. I remember when a Henderson bar put in
lightning fast TITO FP Joker and FPDW shortly after the technology
became available. They were actually there for several months. One
Anthony Curtis mention in LVA later, they were gone within 48 hours.
Add .6 cb to that, and poor old Jackie won't be able to trespass'em
fast enough.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@> wrote:
>>>>>>>>Of course they will let me teach Joker Wild. I wouldn't be
teaching there otherwise...........Will FPKBJW be available in the new Bob Dancer machines, in TITO
format? Or will students who wish to practice what you teach have to
play on the old, slow, dirty, sticky-button coin-droppers?
~Babe~
"jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@> wrote:
Will FPKBJW be available in the new Bob Dancer machines, in TITO
format? Or will students who wish to practice what you teach have to
play on the old, slow, dirty, sticky-button coin-droppers?
============================================
paladingamingllc@...> wrote:
Hmmmm.......This is the SECOND time I've asked the question. What's
the over and under on whether an answer will be forthcoming? (O:
~Babe~
> I Don't mean to be facetious, but what does the Acronyn
> FLEA stand for.Flea isn't an acronym on vpFREE, but is a term that has
been used to describe a low level (25c) advantage video
poker player.Thanks, I guess that makes me a Flea.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFae" <vpFae@...> wrote:
On 15 Dec 2007 at 11:42, Moe Couture wrote:
There is something missing in this thread. Casinos are in the business to earn a profit. Unless you are an employee or stockholder they do not exist to provide you with a living. On the other hand, if they give you a legal opportunity to get more value than what you pay, no problem going after it. The situation of many poor players nad intense competiition allows a money making situation to often exist, but to expect this as the norm is "a bridge too far."
Enjoy the opportunities, profit when u can without being a donkey about it. I feel better getting great value in free rooms, comps, gifts I can use etc for a small loss where the value of what I get far exceeds the cost. For example I enjoy the 9/6 multistrike where th ecasino has a tiny edge but with the slot club, free room offers and meals I am way ahead. the casino is happy and so am I. Many know that I get greater benefits from the casinos than the small losses and become players giving big money to the casinos due their not studying the games. Thus everyone is happy. The casinos make money, I get great deals for almost nothing, and my friends have a good time in vegas.
Bob Dancer wrote:
My goal is to increase the number of video poker players. Wannabe
video poker players are not winning players --- although they may
become so with study and practice. Good opportunities will continue
to exist.
I'll offer up a couple of subjective perspectives:
The general cross section of AC players who I've encountered who have
sat in on Dancer's classes at Borgata are not a threat to casino
profitability. While they're a much more enlightened lot than the
average player, play misconceptions still abound.
I welcome Bob's presence. Optimistically, I hope that greater
paytable discrimination by players will generate selective demand to
which smart casinos will respond. That Borgata, a premium venue,
continues to offer an inventory of 9/6 Jacks in an otherwise dismal AC
environment is a testament to this potential (even if those
inventories have been pared with time).
Harry Porter <harry.porter@verizon.net> wrote:
------
My guess is that the typical Dancer alumnus might shave 2% from their
loss expectation -- shifting, perhaps, from 5% to 3%. That represents
a much thinner edge to the casino but I see two key offsetting factors:
-- A player who gets better value for their money will consume more
of a product (for which they have potentially greater appetite).
Volume can compensate for lost margin.
-- A player losing 5%+ on their play is far less likely to sustain
that play than one realizing an appreciably thinner loss per play unit
(especially after play incentives are accounted for). VP becomes a
much more sustainable and palatable pastime such that there can be an
expectation that the player will be a source of greater revenue over
the longer term.
------
But there are two trade-offs that no "pro" (or otherwise aggressive
advantage player) will welcome:
-- Dancer's consulting, if effective, will make the casino a smarter
player. They'll be prone to fewer gaffes in managing the floor that
give rise to unusually attractive plays, i.e. they're less likely to
"give the house away" in a promotion -- plays that are the lifeblood
of the pro.
-- More marginally knowledgeable players means a greater body who can
identify an attractive play ... competition for availability in a
limited inventory is fiercer, even if some of that competition is
relatively incompetent. A pro wants to corner the market and thrives
when successful.
------
What Bob brings to the table as inevitable. Casinos may be a lot
slower on the uptake when it comes to the subset of insufficiently
profitable consumers -- but it's unrealistic to think that this will
persist.
His work is a boon for the prudent recreational player (one who views
play as a commodity worth paying for, but at an cost that yields
strong value for the money).
A casino that is business savvy and has confidence in the estimated
profit potential in a product (game) is in the position to more
aggressively price that product, looking to optimize the market
share/product margin mix for greatest profitability -- that is, the
casino will push the envelope in offering attractive paytables to pull
in players. Of course, at the same time they will intelligently
establish corresponding incentives and promotions that are consistent
with that profitability.
If such efficiency should predominate in the industry, "advantage"
plays will become scarce. But the recreational player will find a
market that serves their needs much more satisfactorily.
- Harry
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There is something missing in this thread. Casinos are in the
business to earn a profit. Unless you are an employee or stockholder
they do not exist to provide you with a living. On the other hand, if
they give you a legal opportunity to get more value than what you pay,
no problem going after it. The situation of many poor players nad
intense competiition allows a money making situation to often exist,
but to expect this as the norm is "a bridge too far."
Enjoy the opportunities, profit when u can without being a donkey
about it. I feel better getting great value in free rooms, comps,
gifts I can use etc for a small loss where the value of what I get far
exceeds the cost. For example I enjoy the 9/6 multistrike where th
ecasino has a tiny edge but with the slot club, free room offers and
meals I am way ahead. the casino is happy and so am I. Many know that
I get greater benefits from the casinos than the small losses and
become players giving big money to the casinos due their not studying
the games. Thus everyone is happy. The casinos make money, I get great
deals for almost nothing, and my friends have a good time in vegas.
Here's the flip side: I would never ever consider walking into a place
where I was sure to leave with a lot less money than when I walked in,
unless it was something I really enjoyed. I have never understood why
people would want to play games of chance, knowing what the costs are
involved. I understand it presses the right buttons, but that's just
the start of the inquiry.
Yes, as I have pointed out on my blog when I was writing, casinos are
businesses, not charities. They are not in business to make me money,
make you money, or make anyone money except themselves. However, since
they insist on offering this fantasy that they are merely games of
chance, who am I not to take them up on their offer when they make a
mistake. Besides, along with the expectation I get some pretty
impressive perks as well. Make no mistake, this is purely about the
money however.
The public at large doesn't understand the concept that quite a few
people who walk through a casino's door are a lot smarter than those
employed to protect the house bankroll. Sometimes, actually quite
often, the casino will make a mistake. I don't get too involved, and
wish the gaming public wouldn't either, why a certain game or promo is
there, I just play it if I think it's profitable. My presence here is
precisely because the gaming public can't help themselves, and to keep
an eye on the information brokers of the world. You know, those who
can, do, those who can't, teach, that fits pretty well here.
It would make an interesting poll question why we're playing. Like I
said earlier, it's just a transaction to me. That being said, the
fewer people who are aware of the transaction, the better. Then again,
I rarely play in Vegas, although it's home, or should I say, one of them.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@...> wrote:
pesach kremen wrote:
I enjoy the 9/6 multistrike where th ecasino has a tiny edge but with the slot club, free room offers and meals I am way ahead. the casino is happy and so am I.
The casino being "happy" and the casino deriving value from you are 2
different things. For a while, casinos are "happy" about all the
action that paying double on all 4 of a kinds brings in. If the
factor of you paying expected value in return for the pleasure of
gambling is removed, it's a zero sum game. If you win, the casino
therefore loses.
I've read lots of differing opinons here of what might constitute a
"VP Flea". My understanding of the term is slightly different than
those that have been propounded.
I thought that this term initiated in a meeting that Bob Dancer had
with some casino suits, where he first coined this phrase. I believe
that the description referred to knowledgable players who played at
low enough denoms. that, while they might win more from the casino
than the average ploppie, could not do enough damage to the casino's
bottom line to be a major threat. In other words, rather than
giving the casino the equilvilant of a Scorpion sting, the most the
flea could do was cause an annoying but harmless itch.
In fairness, I believe that Bob denies that he ever said this. I
obviously was not present at the meeting in question, and have no
knowledge of who said what, and, if it was said, in what context.
I have always described myself as a flea, since I consider myself to
be an educated player, mostly playing single and multi-line
quarters, and single-line halves and dollars. I did not ascribe any
pejorative meaning to this term. Never did I consider myself to be a
"blood-sucking parasite" whose MO was to greedily take everything
the casino offered w/o giving anything back in return.
I am a strictly a rec player, who loves VP. I tip well, am nice to
all the casino employees, bring friends and family to play who are
not nearly as proficient a player as I am, and patronize the
restaurants and other facilities that the casino may offer. I even
lose sometimes! ({O:
Please do let me know if I must revise my current meaning and apply
a more flattering appellation to my VP persona.
~Babe~
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@> wrote:
I understand that "flea" might give rise to an allusion to a small
time player, but I've understood the word to refer to small and big
players alike that very aggressively pursue play opportunities.......
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...>
wrote:
I've read lots of differing opinons here of what might constitute a
"VP Flea". My understanding of the term is slightly different than
those that have been propounded.I thought that this term initiated in a meeting that Bob Dancer had
with some casino suits, where he first coined this phrase. I
believe
that the description referred to knowledgable players who played at
low enough denoms. that, while they might win more from the casino
than the average ploppie, could not do enough damage to the casino's
bottom line to be a major threat. In other words, rather than
giving the casino the equilvilant of a Scorpion sting, the most the
flea could do was cause an annoying but harmless itch.In fairness, I believe that Bob denies that he ever said this. I
obviously was not present at the meeting in question, and have no
knowledge of who said what, and, if it was said, in what context.I have always described myself as a flea, since I consider myself
to
be an educated player, mostly playing single and multi-line
quarters, and single-line halves and dollars. I did not ascribe
any
pejorative meaning to this term. Never did I consider myself to be
a
"blood-sucking parasite" whose MO was to greedily take everything
the casino offered w/o giving anything back in return.I am a strictly a rec player, who loves VP. I tip well, am nice to
all the casino employees, bring friends and family to play who are
not nearly as proficient a player as I am, and patronize the
restaurants and other facilities that the casino may offer. I even
lose sometimes! ({O:Please do let me know if I must revise my current meaning and apply
a more flattering appellation to my VP persona.
Babe, that is also my understanding and worded much better than I
could ever do.
Dick
Since my legal counsel Drain has advised me that my "trespass"
at
El Cortez has expired, I look forward to attending Bob's classes. I
even bought a Kanye West style t-shirt to wear that says "JACKIE
GAUGHN
HATES VIDEO POKER PEOPLE".
Just chatted with a fellow who was
disinvited to the ElCo. I.e. he
was told he wasn't profitable to
the Elco and they were in business
to make a profit. No rooms offers or
tournaments for you. Net, teach as
many people as you like how to play.
If they win they won't last long at
the Elco. I think their motto should
be, "We love losers".
I have always described myself as a flea, since I consider myself to
be an educated player, mostly playing single and multi-line
quarters, and single-line halves and dollars. I did not ascribe any
pejorative meaning to this term. Never did I consider myself to be a
"blood-sucking parasite" whose MO was to greedily take everything
the casino offered w/o giving anything back in return.
Here's the "gambling is more noble the way I do it" refrain again. As
Bill Coleman has said without justifying it, in spite of being asked
several times, you're implying that it's immoral to play at too high
an advantage. If you play with positive expected value, what do you
"give back" to the casino? If you don't play with positive expected
value, why not? Would you be ashamed to play at such a big advantage
that you couldn't give it all back?
I am a strictly a rec player, who loves VP. I tip well, am nice to
all the casino employees, bring friends and family to play who are
not nearly as proficient a player as I am, and patronize the
restaurants and other facilities that the casino may offer. I even
lose sometimes! ({O:
Is your way of giving back to the casino that you bring family and
friends to the casino for the casino's benefit or is your primary
unselfish interest the benefit of your family and friends? Is your
eating at a restaurant in a casino an act of gratitude for the casino
offering you games that you play at a positive expected value or do
you value the meal enough that, taken in isolation, you believe that
the it's worth more to you than it costs you?
Please do let me know if I must revise my current meaning and apply
a more flattering appellation to my VP persona.~Babe~
Why not just call it what it is? You're acting in your self-interest,
as you should, and, if you didn't regard it as a gain for you, you
wouldn't do it. You only "give back" what you have to. What's wrong
with the idea that, in a competitive environment such as the casinos
have established, the more of a "parasite" that one is, the better?
How is a "flea" morally superior to a "parasite?"
worldbefree22001 wrote:
I think their motto should
be, "We love losers".
Yet again, here's more incorporation of morality into a competitive
business transaction. Is there something wrong with the El Cortez not
wanting winners? Every casino loves losers. I wonder if so many
people would appreciate the honesty of such a motto that it would
increase their business.
>
Just chatted with a fellow who was
disinvited to the ElCo. I.e. he
was told he wasn't profitable to
the Elco and they were in business
to make a profit. No rooms offers or
tournaments for you. Net, teach as
many people as you like how to play.
If they win they won't last long at
the Elco. I think their motto should
be, "We love losers".
I believe that "we love losers" is appropriate for all casinos.
worldbefree22001 wrote:
>I think their motto should
>be, "We love losers".Yet again, here's more incorporation of morality into a competitive
business transaction. Is there something wrong with the El Cortez
not
wanting winners? Every casino loves losers. I wonder if so many
people would appreciate the honesty of such a motto that it would
increase their business.
You're misreading me. I expect no
morality from anyone involved except
myself. I won't compromise my values for
a few bucks. However, without the illusion
that you might win their money, who in their
right mind would play?
I suspect that if the El Co advertised a
policy that said winners would be penalized,
it would not help their business:
"We're of, by, and for losers."
"If you're here on a comp, you're a loser."
"Look to your left, look to your right,
counting you that makes 3 losers."
"Come on in and hang out with losers."
"If the Gold Spike is a home for the homeless,
we're Mecca for losers."
The last one is for our Islamic brothers. You
have my permission to pitch all these to
Jackie on your next visit.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:
(complaints about non-professionals in general)
Dude, what's up this morning? You sounding a little hungry? Can I
write you a buffet comp? Coffee shop OK, too...sounds like you could
use a little caffeine...
You know, it takes all kinds. It's just that some of those kinds
impact my business negatively. We all want the best of it. The
emotional response comes from, "was this really necessary?" This is
kind of why I play at little as possible in Vegas, I don't have to
deal with this as much elsewhere.
When people put money at risk, emotions are almost certainly going to
come into play, even from professionals. If they didn't, there'd
likely be no VPfree.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:
fleas are winning players as i am and always strive to get all we can, the house is trying to get into our wallets why shouldn't we. we need enough weaker players as the house take averages 2% below optimimum on all vp machines
paladingamingllc <paladingamingllc@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:
(complaints about non-professionals in general)
Dude, what's up this morning? You sounding a little hungry? Can I
write you a buffet comp? Coffee shop OK, too...sounds like you could
use a little caffeine...
You know, it takes all kinds. It's just that some of those kinds
impact my business negatively. We all want the best of it. The
emotional response comes from, "was this really necessary?" This is
kind of why I play at little as possible in Vegas, I don't have to
deal with this as much elsewhere.
When people put money at risk, emotions are almost certainly going to
come into play, even from professionals. If they didn't, there'd
likely be no VPfree.
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Love your program. However, I am a devoted Mac user. I would so happily buy a Mac version!
On Dec 16, 2007, at 4:34 AM, Bob Dancer wrote:
For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video
poker computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "worldbefree22001" <krajewski.sa@...>
wrote:
Just chatted with a fellow who was
disinvited to the ElCo. I.e. he
was told he wasn't profitable to
the Elco and they were in business
to make a profit. No rooms offers or
tournaments for you. >>>>>
But your friend was not trespassed outright? Perhaps a kinder
gentler Rick Ronca is reemerging. Back in his Las Vegas Club days,
he was one of the most innovative and advantage player tolerant slot
directors in town. Kind of the Las Vegas equivalent of John Mott at
The Copa in Biloxi.
<< I think their motto should
be, "We love losers".
If memory serves me correctly, their motto is "We produce winners".
I guess there was no room left on the sign to add "...and then we
trespass them".
BTW, nobody has any guesses on Bob's list of ways not to get
trespassed at El Cortez? My top ten:
a) Don't let cashback balance go over $XXX.
b) Never collect your cashback.
c) Collect your cashback in amounts less than $XXX that don't require
a suit from upstairs.
d) Don't play best games on multipoint days.
e) Don't play too much on multipoint days.
f) Don't play just on multipoint days.
g) Never return again after collecting a large amount of cashback and
they put a note in the computer to trespass you on sight.
h) Don't play only $1 Joker Wild.
i) Be a flea and only play quarters and below.
j) Come dressed as a a drug dealer, pimp, drug addict, toothless
crack whore or any combination of the these choices to blend with the
clientele.
Believe it or not, I only violated a,b,c,g,i and possibly e and j.
And the number one trick (drumroll please):
#1 (with a bullet) Claim you are working for Bob Dancer.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:
BTW, nobody has any guesses on Bob's list of ways not to get
trespassed at El Cortez? My top ten:a) Don't let cashback balance go over $XXX.
b) Never collect your cashback.
c) Collect your cashback in amounts less than $XXX that don't require
a suit from upstairs.
d) Don't play best games on multipoint days.
e) Don't play too much on multipoint days.
f) Don't play just on multipoint days.
g) Never return again after collecting a large amount of cashback and
they put a note in the computer to trespass you on sight.
h) Don't play only $1 Joker Wild.
i) Be a flea and only play quarters and below.
j) Come dressed as a a drug dealer, pimp, drug addict, toothless
crack whore or any combination of the these choices to blend with the
clientele.
again.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:
Here's the "gambling is more noble the way I do it" refrain
As Bill Coleman has said without justifying it, in spite of
If you play with positive expected value, what do you "give
If you don't play with positive expected value, why not?
======================================
I play at an advantage whenever possible. The bigger, the better,
though I endeavor not to be too greedy. As my wise husband has
often said, "Take some and leave some".
Would you be ashamed to play at such a big advantage that
Is your way of giving back to the casino that you bring
Is your eating at a restaurant in a casino an act of
Huh??? What did you say? I eat at the casino restaurant because
it's convenient and usually comped. My friends and family eat there
because I suggest it, and they usually pay either with points or
cash. What is your point?
Why not just call it what it is? (My VP persona) You're acting
But of course! Why would I behave in any other manner. My mother
didn't raise any dummies! What in my definition of a VP Flea would
cause you to think o/w.
What's wrong with the idea that, in a competitive
Perhaps this is merely a matter of semantics, but I abhor being
being defined as a parasite. As I described MY understanding of the
definition of a "VP Flea" (as opposed to a real life bug)it is a far
cry from being a parasite.
By the way, Tom, I usually agree with most of your posts. I also
know people who are acquainted with you. They all say that you're
fine fellow. But, in this case, IMO, you're WAY off base, at least in
your unfounded assumptions about me.
Respectfully,
~Babe~