vpFREE2 Forums

El Cortez Downgrade

#21

I Don't mean to be facetious, but what does the Acronyn FLEA stand for.

  As for the definition of a Flea. Webster says it is a blood sucking insect (parasite) that feeds of the blood of a warm blooded animal. Sounds like a few people i've met in life. Thankfully, not many.

  This is a NEW FLEA responding...

  First, wow, thanks for tagging me (as a new player) immediately out the gate with a
  negative name and image, I really appreciate that. Everyone on this board, guru or
  wannabe, was a flea once. Might be good for the flea-haters to remember that.

  II

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: killbondnow
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 4:05 AM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: El Cortez Downgrade-BDC Flea ALERT!

#22

Twice in my life I was surrounded by security and slot goones at El
Cortez. On the first occasion I was armed. I had a strategy card for
Joker Wild which was demanded for examination. After it was returned,
I asked if it was OK and got a less than warm endorsement from a slot
goone. On the second occasion I was trespassed after playing a session
of $1 single line Super Double Bonus on a coin dropping machine. Both
of these incidents occured after Rick Ronca became slot manager, but
now he wants to train people how to play video poker and sell them
strategy cards on site?

    Since my legal counsel Drain has advised me that my "trespass" at
El Cortez has expired, I look forward to attending Bob's classes. I
even bought a Kanye West style t-shirt to wear that says "JACKIE GAUGHN
HATES VIDEO POKER PEOPLE".

#23

You can be trespassed just for playing at a casino?

vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@juno.com> wrote: Twice in my life I was surrounded by security and slot goones at El
Cortez. On the first occasion I was armed. I had a strategy card for
Joker Wild which was demanded for examination. After it was returned,
I asked if it was OK and got a less than warm endorsement from a slot
goone. On the second occasion I was trespassed after playing a session
of $1 single line Super Double Bonus on a coin dropping machine. Both
of these incidents occured after Rick Ronca became slot manager, but
now he wants to train people how to play video poker and sell them
strategy cards on site?

Since my legal counsel Drain has advised me that my "trespass" at
El Cortez has expired, I look forward to attending Bob's classes. I
even bought a Kanye West style t-shirt to wear that says "JACKIE GAUGHN
HATES VIDEO POKER PEOPLE".

···

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#24

First of all, the Bob Dancer consulting firm is in business to make money and has the right to offer their services to any business or individual that pays their fees.

they have a right to do so. we have a right to think less of them for
it. i don't think helping casinos extract money from players more
effectively is an honorable pursuit.

The problem occurs when a casino has a promotion that is poorly thought out, especially from a mathematical viewpoint. Giving something away to get business is one thing, allowing players to shovel out the cash (Fiesta 4K promotion a few years back) is another thing).

i find it very odd that you are not interested in shoveling out cash.
i very much enjoy shoveling out cash, personally. thus i dislike
people who teach casinos how to avoid letting me shovel out their
cash.

cheers,

five

···

On Dec 15, 2007 5:09 AM, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@yahoo.com> wrote:

#25

> First of all, the Bob Dancer consulting firm is in business to

make money and has the right to offer their services to any business
or individual that pays their fees.

they have a right to do so. we have a right to think less of them

for

it. i don't think helping casinos extract money from players more
effectively is an honorable pursuit.

> The problem occurs when a casino has a promotion that is poorly

thought out, especially from a mathematical viewpoint. Giving
something away to get business is one thing, allowing players to
shovel out the cash (Fiesta 4K promotion a few years back) is another
thing).

i find it very odd that you are not interested in shoveling out

cash.

i very much enjoy shoveling out cash, personally. thus i dislike
people who teach casinos how to avoid letting me shovel out their
cash.

cheers,

five

     BRAVO!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, fivespot <fivespot55@...> wrote:

On Dec 15, 2007 5:09 AM, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@...> wrote:

#26

Flea isn't an acronym on vpFREE, but is a term that has
been used to describe a low level (25c) advantage video
poker player.

···

On 15 Dec 2007 at 11:42, Moe Couture wrote:

I Don't mean to be facetious, but what does the Acronyn
FLEA stand for.

#27

Ding!

This is absolutely an amazing thread. Bob has told you that he is the
enemy, yet you give aid and comfort to him.

As evidenced by the many posts in this thread, advantage play is not a
team sport. Like Bob, we're all businessmen in competition with each
other. The reason Bob is disliked by so many of us is that he has
violated many unwritten rules in our code of ethics. Now, like I said
previously, a lot of his deal is about not only being the foremost VP
expert, but the only one. He seems to take glee in his contribution to
the lessening of favorable situations (frankly, I view them as
unnecessary annoyances, I have never seen the profit in doing a
lose/lose deal).

Because of the Internet, I have witnessed some amazing things over the
last several years. Put out a location of a good game with a great
program behind it, there will always be someone with a cheat sheet who
doesn't even know how to play. It's offensive to me on so many
different levels, but fortunately, it probably costs me only $10K or
so a year in EV, which is < 10% of my expectation for any given year.
Or even better, be some quarter or nickel player and out a mistake
which you would never even dream of playing.

Bob's idea of generating EV is apparently teaching a class and wising
up the suits. This is ok with me, because his usual venue is local LV,
or someplace which was marginal to begin with. It's funny how the
places that are the most profitable for me aren't interested in his
services. They know what they're offering and comfortable with their
numbers. Although that too will change at some point, thank goodness
with small favors.

So, Bob, what happens next after you achieve your goal of locking down
all profitable VP? And, is El Cortez going to let you teach Joker? Now
that's a concept-learn to play the game, then get trespassed by
management.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, fivespot <fivespot55@...> wrote:

i find it very odd that you are not interested in shoveling out cash.
i very much enjoy shoveling out cash, personally. thus i dislike
people who teach casinos how to avoid letting me shovel out their
cash.

#28

I do fairly well. I can't speak for others, though.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@...> wrote:

What a way to make a living?

#29

Paladin wrote: So, Bob, what happens next after you achieve your goal of
locking down all profitable VP? And, is El Cortez going to let you teach
Joker? Now that's a concept-learn to play the game, then get trespassed
by management.

The past couple of days have brought a whole lot of positive Bob Dancer
posts. (Even mroejacks made a non-derisive post concerning me. Shock!) I
wondered when the negative posts would emerge again.

Paladin, you greatly mistate my goal. My goal is to increase the number
of video poker players. Wannabe video poker players are not winning
players --- although they may become so with study and practice. Good
opportunities will continue to exist.

Of course they will let me teach Joker Wild. I wouldn't be teaching
there otherwise. And it will be discussed in class how to avoid being
trespassed for playing the game. If you'd like to find out how, come to
the class on February 27!

Most casinos who I consult with end up with looser video poker than when
I first came there. Many casino managers are afraid of video poker
players because they don't understand the game. Once they understand it
better, they become more comfortable with offering looser games.

If you believe that the El Cortez will end up with tighter video poker
games due to my association with them, you are mistaken. If you believe
Silverton had tighter video poker when I was teaching there, you are
mistaken. If you believe Fiesta had tighter video poker when I was
teaching there, you are mistaken.

However many of you are unhappy with me about by business plan will not
affect my business plan. If it gives you pleasure to be unhappy with me,
knock yourself out!

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

#30

I fail to see the justification for considering it more "honorable" to
take advantage of a casino's mistakes than to "help casinos extract
money from players more effectively."

···

On Dec 15, 2007 5:09 AM, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@yahoo.com> wrote:

First of all, the Bob Dancer consulting firm is in business to make money and has the right to offer their services to any business or individual that pays their fees.

they have a right to do so. we have a right to think less of them for
it. i don't think helping casinos extract money from players more
effectively is an honorable pursuit.

The problem occurs when a casino has a promotion that is poorly thought out, especially from a mathematical viewpoint. Giving something away to get business is one thing, allowing players to shovel out the cash (Fiesta 4K promotion a few years back) is another thing).

i find it very odd that you are not interested in shoveling out cash.
i very much enjoy shoveling out cash, personally. thus i dislike
people who teach casinos how to avoid letting me shovel out their
cash.

cheers,

five

#31

paladingamingllc wrote:

This is absolutely an amazing thread. Bob has told you that he is the
enemy, yet you give aid and comfort to him.

As evidenced by the many posts in this thread, advantage play is not a
team sport. Like Bob, we're all businessmen in competition with each
other. The reason Bob is disliked by so many of us is that he has
violated many unwritten rules in our code of ethics.

I just don't understand the justification of this sense of moral
superiority of a professional gambler over a casino. At best, I can
see that, since a casino has initiated the transaction and set itself
up as a business with which gamblers are free to compete, they're on
an even playing field, morally, even when the casino makes a mistake
and the professional takes advantage of it, but where does the sense
of superiority come from? As most, if not all, businesses do, casinos
engage in morally questionable practices, such as false advertising
and, as is the essence of a professional gambler, taking advantage of
the mistakes of others, but they offer a service that many people are
willing to pay for because of what benefits they believe they get.
How is a professional gambler, who offers no product or service that
anyone is willing to pay for but is purely competitive, above them? I
regard professional gambling, with certain limits, as a legitimate way
to make a living, but I fail to see how it's a "cause."

#32

The past couple of days have brought a whole lot of positive Bob

Dancer

posts. (Even mroejacks made a non-derisive post concerning me. Shock!)

I've mentioned before that my "negative" posts are simply the results
of errors in your posts/articles. Many people see you as infalliable
and believe everything you write. Someone has to point out that is not
always true.

Silverton had tighter video poker when I was teaching there, you are
mistaken. If you believe Fiesta had tighter video poker when I was
teaching there, you are mistaken.

Do you still play at Fiesta Henderson?

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:

#33

Paladin wrote: So, Bob, what happens next after you achieve your

goal of

locking down all profitable VP? And, is El Cortez going to let you

teach

Joker? Now that's a concept-learn to play the game, then get

trespassed

by management.

The past couple of days have brought a whole lot of positive Bob

Dancer

posts. (Even mroejacks made a non-derisive post concerning me.

Shock!) I

wondered when the negative posts would emerge again.

Paladin, you greatly mistate my goal. My goal is to increase the

number

of video poker players. Wannabe video poker players are not winning
players --- although they may become so with study and practice.

Good

opportunities will continue to exist.

Of course they will let me teach Joker Wild. I wouldn't be teaching
there otherwise. And it will be discussed in class how to avoid

being

trespassed for playing the game. If you'd like to find out how,

come to

the class on February 27!

Most casinos who I consult with end up with looser video poker than

when

I first came there. Many casino managers are afraid of video poker
players because they don't understand the game. Once they

understand it

better, they become more comfortable with offering looser games.

If you believe that the El Cortez will end up with tighter video

poker

games due to my association with them, you are mistaken. If you

believe

Silverton had tighter video poker when I was teaching there, you are
mistaken. If you believe Fiesta had tighter video poker when I was
teaching there, you are mistaken.

However many of you are unhappy with me about by business plan will

not

affect my business plan. If it gives you pleasure to be unhappy

with me,

knock yourself out!

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video

poker

computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

  It's when you leave the games get tighter. Where are the Joker's at
Silverton now? How many of the Dancer machines are left? Consulting
with casino exec's just teach them how to give us LESS.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:

#34

For me; I'm recreational player. I only play about 8 days a month.
And....vp beats golf. I also like swimming. Lounging at the casino
pool also beats golf. Icing on the cake; eating prime rib or thick
steaks at the gourmets. Again, beats golf.

Most years I squeeeeeze out a profit. Have to be flexible and take
advantage of 3, 4 or 5 times cb days as often as I can. Most of my
play is AC.

Some like golf, some like vp, some like live poker, some like horses
etc. You can have fun or you can make $$ at most things. Some even
make $$ while they are having fun. (Those periods in vp, when the
bankroll tanks, aren't quite as fun, though)

Cheers...Jeep

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc"
<paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@> wrote:
>
> What a way to make a living?
>

I do fairly well. I can't speak for others, though.

#35

"Many casino managers are afraid of video poker
players because they don't understand the game. Once they understand it
better, they become more comfortable with offering looser games."

i am curious about how management does think in general about full pay
vp...what is it they understand better that they didn't get before...

#36

lowered to 8/5. The (6) MG/MD TITO DB machines at various places in
the casino have been lowered to 9/7. (I did not check every one
though).

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bigfuspoker" <Bigfus@...> wrote:

I just got back from LV. The (12) JOB bartops have been

==========================================
I just returned from the EC last night. As "bigfus" pointed out,
the bartops (near the coffee shop) now have 8/5JOB. They also have
8/5BP. Why would anyone play JOB?

Additionally, outside of 9/6DDB, which can found in abundance, there
is not a single FP game on any TITO box! Gone is KBJW, 9/6BPDXL,
DDW, 9/6JOB, 8/5BP etc. AWFUL!

I did play a coin dropper .25 KBJW machines but they are

tortuously slow and most of the time I went to play the coin
droppers the casino was so crowded that I couldn't get on a
machine.

If you arose at 3:00am as I do, you wouldn't have a bit of trouble
getting on any machine you desired. There's something to be said in
favor of staying on central time in LV!

~Babe~

#37

be new "BobDancer" machines (including 9/6 Jacks) with the games I
teach in my classes.........................

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:

I had no say in the recent 9/6 Jacks downgrade but there will

=============================================
Would you be kind enough to tell those of us that stay at EC from time
to time, what the new games will be?

Thanks!
~Babe~

#38

vpFae wrote:

> I Don't mean to be facetious, but what does the Acronyn
> FLEA stand for.

Flea isn't an acronym on vpFREE, but is a term that has
been used to describe a low level (25c) advantage video
poker player.

I understand that "flea" might give rise to an allusion to a small
time player, but I've understood the word to refer to small and big
players alike that very aggressively pursue play opportunities.

"Blood sucking fleas feeding on the underbelly of the casino beast" is
the image a fellow player painted once. The implication is that the
player is pretty much a leach, giving nothing favorable to the casino.
However, like a flea, survival is dependent upon an unobtrusive
presence so that the host is oblivious to the it and unprompted to rid
itself of the flea (other than by unwitting chance via a scratch now
and then).

- Harry

#39

Bob Dancer wrote:

My goal is to increase the number of video poker players. Wannabe
video poker players are not winning players --- although they may
become so with study and practice. Good opportunities will continue
to exist.

I'll offer up a couple of subjective perspectives:

The general cross section of AC players who I've encountered who have
sat in on Dancer's classes at Borgata are not a threat to casino
profitability. While they're a much more enlightened lot than the
average player, play misconceptions still abound.

I welcome Bob's presence. Optimistically, I hope that greater
paytable discrimination by players will generate selective demand to
which smart casinos will respond. That Borgata, a premium venue,
continues to offer an inventory of 9/6 Jacks in an otherwise dismal AC
environment is a testament to this potential (even if those
inventories have been pared with time).

···

------

My guess is that the typical Dancer alumnus might shave 2% from their
loss expectation -- shifting, perhaps, from 5% to 3%. That represents
a much thinner edge to the casino but I see two key offsetting factors:

-- A player who gets better value for their money will consume more
of a product (for which they have potentially greater appetite).
Volume can compensate for lost margin.

-- A player losing 5%+ on their play is far less likely to sustain
that play than one realizing an appreciably thinner loss per play unit
(especially after play incentives are accounted for). VP becomes a
much more sustainable and palatable pastime such that there can be an
expectation that the player will be a source of greater revenue over
the longer term.

------

But there are two trade-offs that no "pro" (or otherwise aggressive
advantage player) will welcome:

-- Dancer's consulting, if effective, will make the casino a smarter
player. They'll be prone to fewer gaffes in managing the floor that
give rise to unusually attractive plays, i.e. they're less likely to
"give the house away" in a promotion -- plays that are the lifeblood
of the pro.

-- More marginally knowledgeable players means a greater body who can
identify an attractive play ... competition for availability in a
limited inventory is fiercer, even if some of that competition is
relatively incompetent. A pro wants to corner the market and thrives
when successful.

------

What Bob brings to the table as inevitable. Casinos may be a lot
slower on the uptake when it comes to the subset of insufficiently
profitable consumers -- but it's unrealistic to think that this will
persist.

His work is a boon for the prudent recreational player (one who views
play as a commodity worth paying for, but at an cost that yields
strong value for the money).

A casino that is business savvy and has confidence in the estimated
profit potential in a product (game) is in the position to more
aggressively price that product, looking to optimize the market
share/product margin mix for greatest profitability -- that is, the
casino will push the envelope in offering attractive paytables to pull
in players. Of course, at the same time they will intelligently
establish corresponding incentives and promotions that are consistent
with that profitability.

If such efficiency should predominate in the industry, "advantage"
plays will become scarce. But the recreational player will find a
market that serves their needs much more satisfactorily.

- Harry

#40

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>

I understand that "flea" might give rise to an allusion to a small
time player, but I've understood the word to refer to small and big
players alike that very aggressively pursue play opportunities.

"Blood sucking fleas feeding on the underbelly of the casino beast" is
the image a fellow player painted once. The implication is that the
player is pretty much a leach, giving nothing favorable to the casino.
However, like a flea, survival is dependent upon an unobtrusive
presence so that the host is oblivious to the it and unprompted to rid
itself of the flea (other than by unwitting chance via a scratch now
and then).

- Harry

That was the way I first understood it also.