vpFREE2 Forums

bigfuspoker · January 14, 2020, 5:18pm

I just got back from LV. The (12) JOB bartops have been lowered to
8/5. The (6) MG/MD TITO DB machines at various places in the casino
have been lowered to 9/7. (I did not check every one though).

I am thoroughly disgusted. I am on a roll where every single game and
casino I decide to play at lowers the pay tables.

I had planned on taking a one session shot at 9/6 JOB MS STP. I'll
confess that my discipline is lacking and I played the crack cocaine
of VP for my entire trip. (Of course I lost -- that game is brutal.
It was fun but I may be cured of my addiction.)

The (2) MS machines are still there but note that the RF on one of
them is 1250. (So sneaky)

I did play a coin dropper .25 KBJW machines but they are tortuously
slow and most of the time I went to play the coin droppers the casino
was so crowded that I couldn't get on a machine. (Probably because of
3X points from 5p to midnight on Sunday and Monday).

shortpaydan · January 14, 2020, 6:47pm

himself will be teaching his classes there. This means 2 things, both
bad for us seasoned pros. One, an increase in the BDC flea population
thus more pressure on the already endangered positive VP inventory.
Second, the enevitable removal/slashing of the positive paytables at
the El Cortez. Ive played there maybe 3 times lifetime so it wont
affect me but I feel 4 U longtime El Cortez players. I saw firsthand
(ask my bank account) how devestating Bob Dancer teaching at casinos
can be. Look no further than what happened to the VP inventories at
both fiestas, the River Palms, and more recently at the Silverton.

-Dan

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bigfuspoker" <Bigfus@...> wrote:

I just got back from LV. The (12) JOB bartops have been lowered to
8/5.

Get ready 4 more El Cortez downgrades. Starting Jan.9 The Danceman

Bob_Dancer · January 14, 2020, 6:47pm

Shortpaydan wrote: et ready 4 more El Cortez downgrades. Starting Jan.9
The Danceman
himself will be teaching his classes there. This means 2 things, both
bad for us seasoned pros. One, an increase in the BDC flea population
thus more pressure on the already endangered positive VP inventory.
Second, the enevitable removal/slashing of the positive paytables at
the El Cortez. Ive played there maybe 3 times lifetime so it wont
affect me but I feel 4 U longtime El Cortez players. I saw firsthand
(ask my bank account) how devestating Bob Dancer teaching at casinos
can be. Look no further than what happened to the VP inventories at
both fiestas, the River Palms, and more recently at the Silverton.

You are misrepresenting what I've done and what I'm responsible for. I
had no say in the recent 9/6 Jacks downgrade but there will be new "Bob
Dancer" machines (including 9/6 Jacks) with the games I teach in my
classes. These games will be better than average over what the current
El Cortez inventory. For a schedule of classes see www.bobdancer.com.
Whether the casino offers more than one semester of classes is still up
in the air. Management there is somewhat nervous about this
"experiment."

During my classes, both Fiestas and Silverton IMPROVED their low-level
video poker. After they decided they didn't want classes there any more,
that is when they tightened the machines. But during my classes, the
situation for quarter and dollar players was better than it was before
or after.

I have never taught at River Palms. Mickey Crimm (I think) once
suggested I had consulted there, but my only involvement with that
casino was as a paid representative of Strictly Slots to determine which
of their machines warranted a "Certified over 99% payout" topper.

The "Bob Dancer flea population" (using Shortpaydan's term --- certainly
not mine) includes many members of vpFREE. More than half of the vpFREE
members have taken one or more of my classes. (I believe this statement
to be true but cannot prove as I do not have a complete list of names of
class attendees nor a list of vpFREE members). If SPD wants to sneer at
this group, that's his right. But these are my students and I enjoy them
and enjoy educating them.

Video poker inventory at essentially all casinos is tighter than it was
in the past. Part of the reason for this is that the player population
is become more educated and casinos need to tighten their machines to
maintain their desired margins. I certainly am doing my best to educate
players, so if you want to cast "blame" for the tightening of games, I
am an available target. But so is vpFREE itself along with a number of
other writers --- both published and unpublished. There are a number of
knowledgeable (and many not-so-knowledgeable as well) people who post
here and anyone who reads vpFREE regularly will learn all kinds of
stuff. That will lead to them playing better and casinos tightening
inventory as a result.

Players who already are video poker experts frequently do not want there
to be more. It's an understandable reaction. They want less competition
for this gravy train. (This is true in many businesses. It is fairly
simple supply-and-demand economics. The fewer good vp players, the
jucier the rewards. The more good vp players, the more of a struggle it
is to achieve specific monetary goals.) But there's a tidal wave of
video poker information out there --- including software --- and the
trend will be for the games to continue to get tighter as casinos
attempt to deal with this tidal wave. That's life. I'm proud of my
contribution to this tidal wave.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

Jigger_Woodruff · January 14, 2020, 6:47pm

A reasonable response - thanks!

Bob Dancer <bdancer@compdance.com> wrote: Shortpaydan wrote: et ready 4 more El Cortez downgrades. Starting Jan.9
The Danceman
himself will be teaching his classes there. This means 2 things, both
bad for us seasoned pros. One, an increase in the BDC flea population
thus more pressure on the already endangered positive VP inventory.
Second, the enevitable removal/slashing of the positive paytables at
the El Cortez. Ive played there maybe 3 times lifetime so it wont
affect me but I feel 4 U longtime El Cortez players. I saw firsthand
(ask my bank account) how devestating Bob Dancer teaching at casinos
can be. Look no further than what happened to the VP inventories at
both fiestas, the River Palms, and more recently at the Silverton.

You are misrepresenting what I've done and what I'm responsible for. I
had no say in the recent 9/6 Jacks downgrade but there will be new "Bob
Dancer" machines (including 9/6 Jacks) with the games I teach in my
classes. These games will be better than average over what the current
El Cortez inventory. For a schedule of classes see www.bobdancer.com.
Whether the casino offers more than one semester of classes is still up
in the air. Management there is somewhat nervous about this
"experiment."

During my classes, both Fiestas and Silverton IMPROVED their low-level
video poker. After they decided they didn't want classes there any more,
that is when they tightened the machines. But during my classes, the
situation for quarter and dollar players was better than it was before
or after.

I have never taught at River Palms. Mickey Crimm (I think) once
suggested I had consulted there, but my only involvement with that
casino was as a paid representative of Strictly Slots to determine which
of their machines warranted a "Certified over 99% payout" topper.

The "Bob Dancer flea population" (using Shortpaydan's term --- certainly
not mine) includes many members of vpFREE. More than half of the vpFREE
members have taken one or more of my classes. (I believe this statement
to be true but cannot prove as I do not have a complete list of names of
class attendees nor a list of vpFREE members). If SPD wants to sneer at
this group, that's his right. But these are my students and I enjoy them
and enjoy educating them.

Video poker inventory at essentially all casinos is tighter than it was
in the past. Part of the reason for this is that the player population
is become more educated and casinos need to tighten their machines to
maintain their desired margins. I certainly am doing my best to educate
players, so if you want to cast "blame" for the tightening of games, I
am an available target. But so is vpFREE itself along with a number of
other writers --- both published and unpublished. There are a number of
knowledgeable (and many not-so-knowledgeable as well) people who post
here and anyone who reads vpFREE regularly will learn all kinds of
stuff. That will lead to them playing better and casinos tightening
inventory as a result.

Players who already are video poker experts frequently do not want there
to be more. It's an understandable reaction. They want less competition
for this gravy train. (This is true in many businesses. It is fairly
simple supply-and-demand economics. The fewer good vp players, the
jucier the rewards. The more good vp players, the more of a struggle it
is to achieve specific monetary goals.) But there's a tidal wave of
video poker information out there --- including software --- and the
trend will be for the games to continue to get tighter as casinos
attempt to deal with this tidal wave. That's life. I'm proud of my
contribution to this tidal wave.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

···

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

henryitkin · January 14, 2020, 6:47pm

Shortpaydan wrote:
The Danceman
himself will be teaching his classes there. This means 2 things, both
bad for us seasoned pros.

"Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:

You are misrepresenting what I've done and what I'm responsible for.

I wish to comment on the posting of Shortpaydan and the expected
response from Bob Dancer. I have played many hours next to Bob
Dancer, have talked with him about many topics, and consider him to
be a friend, at least a casual friend in that we know each other on
sight and it has been that way for well over ten years. I know a
reasonable amount about him and feel my response is educated in that
area.

Shortpaydan call Bob Dancer "The Danceman" which surely tells you
where he stands but not whether he is right or wrong. My opinion,
which I believe to be knowledgeable is in three pieces. Firstly,
about the decline in playable video poker machines in all
denominations. This is due to two reasons. First is that casinos
want higher profits, and even today, most video players are not all
that well educated and will play any convenient machine. Lowering
pay tables irritates the more knowledgeable players, but makes
little or no difference to the majority of players. Thus more
profits to casinos. The second reason is that I believe casino
executives take it personally when certain people, or groups of
people, can take assets out of a casino when combining payback of
the machine, slot club benefits, and comps provided to gamblers in
general. It's quite personal in that reductions of pay tables are
not the only response. Other more severe responses are directed
directly at the more skilled players. Whether you consider
these "take it personally" responses reasonable depends on your
point of view. Would you like somebody coming into your
establishment, gambling or otherwise, knowing full well, that in the
long run, he is a losing customer for you? I don't know. Probably
depends on whether you might consider it a loss leader or just good
business sense. You can't blame Bob Dancer for the general decline
in video poker pay tables any more than you could blame some of the
well educated writers on Blackjack which has seen extreme responses
from all casinos. The hayday of Blackjack may be over and this
might be analagous to video poker.

Secondly, about his teaching classes. Bob Dancer's response must be
considered to be directly on point. The pay tables are better when
he is teaching there than they were before he taught, and after he
left teaching at that particular casino. Bob Dancer educates people
on how to play video poker, which without question, brings more
players into that casino. And some, if not most of those people,
will never be really skilled video poker players. Also this
publicizes video poker, and this isn't bad. Look what it's done for
regular poker. All these new poker players and nobody can say
that's been bad for the experienced poker players or poker in
general. I think the net effect of Bob Dancer's teaching of classes
is positive for everybody in video poker.

There is thirdly, one more subject. That is consultation with
casinos on video poker, the kinds of machines and payoffs to allow,
and other marketing matters concerning video poker. I am not privy
to what Bob Dancer is consulting now or what he consulted in the
past. I know he did some consulting, at least in the past. This
can't be good for video poker players at any skill level and
especially the more skilled players. I wish he wouldn't consult at
all. If there is any complaint against the man, it would be only in
this area, at least in my opinion.

So if you want to rail against the guy, do it in the area in which
he might have some culpability, not in areas in which he has helped
people and, in a positive manner, helped to publicize our beloved
game.

"henryitkin" henryitkin@cox.net

···

WP_SF · January 14, 2020, 6:47pm

"Players who already are video poker experts frequently do not want there
to be more. It's an understandable reaction. They want less competition
for this gravy train. (This is true in many businesses. It is fairly
simple supply-and-demand economics. The fewer good vp players, the
jucier the rewards. The more good vp players, the more of a struggle it
is to achieve specific monetary goals.) But there's a tidal wave of
video poker information out there --- including software --- and the
trend will be for the games to continue to get tighter as casinos
attempt to deal with this tidal wave. That's life. I'm proud of my
contribution to this tidal wave."

What he said.

Bob, here's the deal. Pick one side of the street or the other. It's
that simple. Myself personally, you sell your services to the casino
way too cheaply. I've always known where you stood-your deal has
always been about being the ONLY VP professional out there. At least
you're being a lot more honest with the public with your stated
mission. Dude, how much tighter do you want them to be? Once we can
stop discussing the concept of certainty in video poker advantage
play, you've fulfilled your mission.

As for that "tidal wave" of information, yes, there's waaay too much
out there, if you ask me.

The biggest problem, of course, if that more and more people know how
to play (not necessarily all thanks to you), and it won't be too long
before a tipping point is reached, slot executives figure out how to
completely lock down their VP inventory as to eliminate unprofitable
games or situations, it's happening already in a number of casinos
nationwide.

There's a lot of specifics I could comment on, but only the suits who
read VPFree would get it, and I'm not in the business of wising them
up any further. I will say this, what you tell the casino suits in
pitching your teaching services is pretty amusing.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:

whitejeeps · January 14, 2020, 6:47pm

In addition to paladin points that I agree 100%, I would like to
mention; "gravy train". What gravy train? Refering to vp as a gravy
train gives the rookie managers reason to tighten things up; thus
protecting their jobs. Even in the old days with good comps and cb
I'm not sure it could be called a gravy train. The gambling joints
always made a profit on vp. The suits have a problem with not
netting the obscene profits that they win on their reel slots. If
suits can't hold 6-8% most would rather not have the warm bodies in
the house. But, the cats out of the bag. They can only tighten so
far.

Cheers...Jeep

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc"
<paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

"Players who already are video poker experts frequently do not

want there

to be more. It's an understandable reaction. They want less

competition

for this gravy train. (This is true in many businesses. It is

fairly

simple supply-and-demand economics. The fewer good vp players, the
jucier the rewards. The more good vp players, the more of a

struggle it

is to achieve specific monetary goals.) But there's a tidal wave of
video poker information out there --- including software --- and

the

trend will be for the games to continue to get tighter as casinos
attempt to deal with this tidal wave. That's life. I'm proud of my
contribution to this tidal wave."

What he said.

Bob, here's the deal. Pick one side of the street or the other.

It's

that simple. Myself personally, you sell your services to the

casino

way too cheaply. I've always known where you stood-your deal has
always been about being the ONLY VP professional out there. At

least

you're being a lot more honest with the public with your stated
mission. Dude, how much tighter do you want them to be? Once we can
stop discussing the concept of certainty in video poker advantage
play, you've fulfilled your mission.

As for that "tidal wave" of information, yes, there's waaay too

much

out there, if you ask me.

The biggest problem, of course, if that more and more people know

how

to play (not necessarily all thanks to you), and it won't be too

long

before a tipping point is reached, slot executives figure out how

to

completely lock down their VP inventory as to eliminate

unprofitable

games or situations, it's happening already in a number of casinos
nationwide.

There's a lot of specifics I could comment on, but only the suits

who

read VPFree would get it, and I'm not in the business of wising

them

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@> wrote:
up any further. I will say this, what you tell the casino suits in
pitching your teaching services is pretty amusing.

bigfuspoker · January 14, 2020, 6:47pm

I think this quote illustrates perfectly the present state of VP:

"First is that casinos want higher profits, and even today, most video
players are not all that well educated and will play any convenient
machine. Lowering pay tables irritates the more knowledgeable players,
but makes little or no difference to the majority of players. Thus more
profits to casinos."

I am not a pro but I play very frequently. I know the other
knowledgable players and can identify them, but for the most part even
the regular VP players are not informed. The casinos are getting
really greedy and I think that eventually it will backfire. My
enthusiasm for the game has brought a lot of new players into the
casinos that wouldn't normally visit. And not one of the players that
I have taught is willing to learn to play even JOB perfectly. They
just have a little higher shot of getting lucky or possibly earning
some comps.

"The second reason is that I believe casino executives take it
personally when certain people, or groups of people, can take assets
out of a casino when combining payback of the machine, slot club
benefits, and comps provided to gamblers in general."

And that is what knowledgable players do, don't we? But, it's
starting to get to the point where even I am saying to myself, "What
the heck am I wasting all this time for?" And I truly love and enjoy
VP.

The knowledge that BD has shared has given me nearly all the VP
knowledge that I possess and I am very grateful for it because I love
playing VP so much as I have said. I don't think he is responsible
for this downgrade at the Elco. I hope that when his classes start
that they will reinstate the good games. As an informed recreational
player I can go down to the bar at MSS and play JOB if that is what I
want to do. But I am becoming weary of constantly settling in
somewhere only to have the games change. I guess it's the nature of
the beast but it's tiresome.

Bob_Dancer · January 14, 2020, 6:47pm

Henry Itkin wrote (at the end of a pro-Bob Dancer post): I wish he
wouldn't consult at
all. If there is any complaint against the man, it would be only in
this area, at least in my opinion.

Part of my business plan is to sell video poker information to all
buyers --- whether they be players, manufacturers, casinos, or others
involved in video poker. There are people (Including Paladin and Henry
in the most recent thread . . . but others as well) who want me to
change my business plan. These folks are destined to be disappointed.

Even if I limited myself to educating players, there would be
dissention. Shortpaydan, among others, doesn't want anybody else to
learn video poker well because it cuts his profits when it does. It is
my experience that people do not want their "competition" to be educated
--- whether they perceive this competition as other players or the
casinos or the manufacturers.

I find my business plan to be honorable and profitable. I'm not planning
on changing it because certain others wish to tell me how to run my
business. And in return, I won't tell Paladin, Shortpaydan, and others
how to run their businesses.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

Mickey · January 14, 2020, 6:47pm

Part of my business plan is to sell video poker information to all
buyers --- whether they be players, manufacturers, casinos, or

others

involved in video poker. There are people (Including Paladin and

Henry

in the most recent thread . . . but others as well) who want me to
change my business plan. These folks are destined to be

disappointed.

Even if I limited myself to educating players, there would be
dissention. Shortpaydan, among others, doesn't want anybody else to
learn video poker well because it cuts his profits when it does. It

is

my experience that people do not want their "competition" to be

educated

--- whether they perceive this competition as other players or the
casinos or the manufacturers.

I find my business plan to be honorable and profitable. I'm not

planning

on changing it because certain others wish to tell me how to run my
business. And in return, I won't tell Paladin, Shortpaydan, and

others

how to run their businesses.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video

poker

computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com
\

\

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself."
RICKY NELSON

People sell information. Information is valuable. Information is
powerful. It's the information age. Sure, I'd just as soon Bob
wasn't doing it. But, if he wasn't, someone else would. Someone
else already does, and was probably doing it before Bob.

David Sklansky. He consults to the casinos too. He may have been
the first to sell mathematical information to casino execs. I think
he taught them how to put on a promotion without getting crushed.
They needed the info because every time they put on a promotion they
got crushed. They're just not mathheads. Of course, you can always
buy Sklansky's "How to make a $100,000 a Year as a Professional
Gambler." Hopefully, I got the book title right. The book mostly
has to do with beating the casinos. So David teaches you how to beat
them and teaches them how not to get beat by you.

Recently, Dan Harrington came out with a series of books on
tournament poker. Harrington won the '95 WSOP and made the final
table at the Moneymaker WSOP, then followed it up with a final table
finish the next year when the field ballooned up to 2800 players.
He's part of the Mayfair Club bunch out of New York City, Lederer,
Zolotow, Seidel, Heimowitz, that have put a big dent in the poker
playing universe. He's good. Really good. His books are published
by Sklansky's Two plus Two Publishing, by the way. There have been
other books on tournament poker, even by Sklansky, but none let loose
with the information that Harrington's books did. Harrington has
taken major heat from the top pros for such a dastardly deed.

It would be nice to go back to the golden age of video poker, when it
was hard for me to figure out if I should be in Las Vegas, Laughlin,
Reno, or Tahoe. There were big edges in all four places. That's not
the situation today. But that is just reality. That's what
professional gambling is all about. Reality. You just have to deal
with it. Nowadays, when you find a big play, you have to keep your
mouth shut and work it as long a you can.

And don't put all your eggs in one basket. The whole thing is about
making money. It shouldn't make any difference if it comes from
video poker or scalping baseball games, or middling football games,
or playing live poker, or playing tournament poker, or whatever area
you have some expertise in.

I recently returned to playing online poker just to practice
tournaments for cheap. Do I plan on diving into the world of big
time tournament poker? Not at this time. It's a contingency plan.
I just refuse to get caught with my pants down. I'm always gonna
have some kind of play working, whatever it may be.

Information is always gonna be sold. That's capitalism, baby!
That's the way it works. That's the Reality. Reality is the one
true thing a gambler must deal with.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:

irdd3000 · January 14, 2020, 6:47pm

simply put i would be willing to bet that the people complaining didn't
figure out how to play video poker all on their own...

mroejacks · January 14, 2020, 6:47pm

simply put i would be willing to bet that the people complaining

didn't

figure out how to play video poker all on their own...

I doubt even the non-complainers learned by themselves. That includes
Bob, Jean and just about any expert you can name.

Personally, I learned most things by myself after I read a post on
rec.gambling that VP was completely random and fair and therefore
could be "solved" by computers. The lightbulb went off and I
proceeded to develop strategies for myself. Without that initial
information I would never had discovered the money making potential
of VP. In addition, as I found existing tools (vpfreebie, winpoker) I
used them instead of doing the work myself. I suspect almost everyone
here had something similar to get them started.

As far as Bob making money I'm in complete agreement with him. If he
can make money by selling his talents then good for him. As long as
he is ethical about it I have no problems. I don't think this is any
different than most capitalistic markets. Get there first or build a
better mousetrap if you want to succeed.

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lv_nv_realtor" <irdd@...> wrote:

denflo60 · January 14, 2020, 6:47pm

Shortpaydan wrote: et ready 4 more El Cortez downgrades. Starting

Jan.9

The Danceman
himself will be teaching his classes there. This means 2 things,

both

bad for us seasoned pros. One, an increase in the BDC flea

population

thus more pressure on the already endangered positive VP inventory.
Second, the enevitable removal/slashing of the positive paytables

at

the El Cortez. Ive played there maybe 3 times lifetime so it wont
affect me but I feel 4 U longtime El Cortez players. I saw

firsthand

(ask my bank account) how devestating Bob Dancer teaching at

casinos

can be. Look no further than what happened to the VP inventories at
both fiestas, the River Palms, and more recently at the Silverton.

You are misrepresenting what I've done and what I'm responsible

for. I

had no say in the recent 9/6 Jacks downgrade but there will be

new "Bob

Dancer" machines (including 9/6 Jacks) with the games I teach in my
classes. These games will be better than average over what the

current

El Cortez inventory. For a schedule of classes see

www.bobdancer.com.

Whether the casino offers more than one semester of classes is

still up

in the air. Management there is somewhat nervous about this
"experiment."

During my classes, both Fiestas and Silverton IMPROVED their low-

level

video poker. After they decided they didn't want classes there any

more,

that is when they tightened the machines. But during my classes, the
situation for quarter and dollar players was better than it was

before

or after.

I have never taught at River Palms. Mickey Crimm (I think) once
suggested I had consulted there, but my only involvement with that
casino was as a paid representative of Strictly Slots to determine

which

of their machines warranted a "Certified over 99% payout" topper.

The "Bob Dancer flea population" (using Shortpaydan's term ---

certainly

not mine) includes many members of vpFREE. More than half of the

vpFREE

members have taken one or more of my classes. (I believe this

statement

to be true but cannot prove as I do not have a complete list of

names of

class attendees nor a list of vpFREE members). If SPD wants to

sneer at

this group, that's his right. But these are my students and I enjoy

them

and enjoy educating them.

Video poker inventory at essentially all casinos is tighter than it

was

in the past. Part of the reason for this is that the player

population

is become more educated and casinos need to tighten their machines

to

maintain their desired margins. I certainly am doing my best to

educate

players, so if you want to cast "blame" for the tightening of

games, I

am an available target. But so is vpFREE itself along with a number

of

other writers --- both published and unpublished. There are a

number of

knowledgeable (and many not-so-knowledgeable as well) people who

post

here and anyone who reads vpFREE regularly will learn all kinds of
stuff. That will lead to them playing better and casinos tightening
inventory as a result.

Players who already are video poker experts frequently do not want

there

to be more. It's an understandable reaction. They want less

competition

for this gravy train. (This is true in many businesses. It is fairly
simple supply-and-demand economics. The fewer good vp players, the
jucier the rewards. The more good vp players, the more of a

struggle it

is to achieve specific monetary goals.) But there's a tidal wave of
video poker information out there --- including software --- and the
trend will be for the games to continue to get tighter as casinos
attempt to deal with this tidal wave. That's life. I'm proud of my
contribution to this tidal wave.

Bob Dancer

Its just business. Good response Bob. Denny Florence

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video

poker

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:

computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

killbondnow · January 14, 2020, 6:47pm

This is a NEW FLEA responding...

First, wow, thanks for tagging me (as a new player) immediately out the gate with a
negative name and image, I really appreciate that. Everyone on this board, guru or
wannabe, was a flea once. Might be good for the flea-haters to remember that.

I don't buy into any *one* "guru's" system -- I have BD's software, JS's books, and take a
look at Skip Hughes and VPFree etc for information. Nobody should puff themselves up
thinking they're the best "guru." I am an intelligent person capable of independent
thought, and know how to look at lots of resources and glean what makes sense or I find
useful. Watch out, many "fleas" may be capable of doing the same. If you think I'm going
to take what BD or anyone else says as immediate gospel, boy are you mistaken.

Here's what I have to say about gurus and wannabes in ANY undertaking (and this applies
mostly to FreeVPFree, which I think is populated by a lot of 3rd grader attitude)...

"Any 'professional' who boasts of being 'the best' ... is neither."

I personally am not endangering ANY of you, so any vet players wringing their hands about
the 'new people ruining it for us' should really get over themselves.. I get to Vegas maybe
4-5 times a year. I wanted to learn a new game and learn it most effectively. JUST LIKE
ALL OF YOU DID. If you can't stand the heat of more people coming in to learn VP, maybe
it's time YOU left the kitchen.

I'm really hoping to take one of BD's courses. It's not guru-worship, I just think it would
be interesting. I'm not going to run screaming only to EC VP's to ruin your precious
paytables. I don't play there. I play at other casinos that I like better. I am relying on
VPFree's databases for information. It's all out there for the taking, it's not just BD's
classes' fault!

Stop insulting new people -- each of you was a 'flea' once upon a time.

Thanks.

Mary
A Flea

pesach_kremen1 · January 14, 2020, 6:47pm

Some of the thoughts in these posts deserve a response. First of all, the Bob Dancer consulting firm is in business to make money and has the right to offer their services to any business or individual that pays their fees. Secondly, it is possible to have pay tables that are good for both the casino and the player. The best example of this as Bob Dancer has often said is double bonus poker. The edge for the player with perfect play is slight and therefore since most players, even with teaching an dpractice, never achieve that level it is a money maker for the casinos as well. The problem occurs when a casino has a promotion that is poorly thought out, especially from a mathematical viewpoint. Giving something away to get business is one thing, allowing players to shovel out the cash (Fiesta 4K promotion a few years back) is another thing). Bob Dancer gave a class a few years ago about advantage play and the figure 1.5% came up. If the machine, comps, promos, and slot
cash go over 1.5% the promotion becomes so attractive that the professionals will wipe it out and its intent to bring in business is lost. You have to achieve a balance. I have no love for the casinos and many of their practices of trickery (odds as for instead of to, a tight machine next to a lose machine in regular slots, gimmicky pay tables, fine print in promos and other advertising to excess, allowing smoking to please a minority at the expense of the health of the majority) but honesty belongs on both sides. Bob Dancer admits he and especially his wife were lucky and 2 large royals in a small time totaling 500K would eb called good fortune by anyone. The Bob Dancers of the world have done a lot to increase the knowledge, and th epopularity of video poker which is good for both the players and the casinos. The person getting 95% return on his play, getting disgusted and leaving, is now getting 98% and lasts longer making him and the casino happier. Too many casino
promos were seat of th epants, either giving nearly nothing to the players and not working, or too much with a disasterous result. Thus a consulting firm specializing in this is a good thing. The casinos are profit making entities, they are not player charities. of course, we, as consumers can choose the best that there is to offer. But as long as they offer an honest game in a decent environment ( there is a problem here as the environment is often hazardous due their allowing smoking) with the pay offs clearly spelled out, it is our choice to play or not to play (unfortunately the employees don't have this choice to endure the bad atmosphere as work is often what you can get)as we see fit. I find places that have good machines with decent pay tables where the comp value of rooms, meals, and slot cash neutralizes the small house edge and more. To close here is a simple example. the Golden Nugget downtown has poor video poker by most standards but they have a few BP with
its standard 99.2% return plus slot cash. Allowing for not knowing penalty card situations in BP and some errors assume you play at 99% with about .2% slot cash. The offers you get for discounted rooms, coupon books, etc easily put you over 100%. Of course you can't be a pro and play there (not including the high limit stuff out of my range as don't know the perks those players get) and make a profit at quarter and dollar levels but have the equivalent of free vacations -yes-that you can do. Let us not judge someone for increasing his consulting business by offerring services to casinos, after all, how many of you privately have sought his services? He is open about it and I see no conflict here. If Bob offers classes downtown or at Casinos I frequent ont he days I come to town I would be glad to attend them. Enjoy the classes and the benefits they provide, leave the complaining to the sorer losers. have I made my point?

henryitkin <henryitkin@cox.net> wrote: > Shortpaydan wrote:

The Danceman
himself will be teaching his classes there. This means 2 things, both
bad for us seasoned pros.

"Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:

You are misrepresenting what I've done and what I'm responsible for.

I wish to comment on the posting of Shortpaydan and the expected
response from Bob Dancer. I have played many hours next to Bob
Dancer, have talked with him about many topics, and consider him to
be a friend, at least a casual friend in that we know each other on
sight and it has been that way for well over ten years. I know a
reasonable amount about him and feel my response is educated in that
area.

Shortpaydan call Bob Dancer "The Danceman" which surely tells you
where he stands but not whether he is right or wrong. My opinion,
which I believe to be knowledgeable is in three pieces. Firstly,
about the decline in playable video poker machines in all
denominations. This is due to two reasons. First is that casinos
want higher profits, and even today, most video players are not all
that well educated and will play any convenient machine. Lowering
pay tables irritates the more knowledgeable players, but makes
little or no difference to the majority of players. Thus more
profits to casinos. The second reason is that I believe casino
executives take it personally when certain people, or groups of
people, can take assets out of a casino when combining payback of
the machine, slot club benefits, and comps provided to gamblers in
general. It's quite personal in that reductions of pay tables are
not the only response. Other more severe responses are directed
directly at the more skilled players. Whether you consider
these "take it personally" responses reasonable depends on your
point of view. Would you like somebody coming into your
establishment, gambling or otherwise, knowing full well, that in the
long run, he is a losing customer for you? I don't know. Probably
depends on whether you might consider it a loss leader or just good
business sense. You can't blame Bob Dancer for the general decline
in video poker pay tables any more than you could blame some of the
well educated writers on Blackjack which has seen extreme responses
from all casinos. The hayday of Blackjack may be over and this
might be analagous to video poker.

Secondly, about his teaching classes. Bob Dancer's response must be
considered to be directly on point. The pay tables are better when
he is teaching there than they were before he taught, and after he
left teaching at that particular casino. Bob Dancer educates people
on how to play video poker, which without question, brings more
players into that casino. And some, if not most of those people,
will never be really skilled video poker players. Also this
publicizes video poker, and this isn't bad. Look what it's done for
regular poker. All these new poker players and nobody can say
that's been bad for the experienced poker players or poker in
general. I think the net effect of Bob Dancer's teaching of classes
is positive for everybody in video poker.

There is thirdly, one more subject. That is consultation with
casinos on video poker, the kinds of machines and payoffs to allow,
and other marketing matters concerning video poker. I am not privy
to what Bob Dancer is consulting now or what he consulted in the
past. I know he did some consulting, at least in the past. This
can't be good for video poker players at any skill level and
especially the more skilled players. I wish he wouldn't consult at
all. If there is any complaint against the man, it would be only in
this area, at least in my opinion.

So if you want to rail against the guy, do it in the area in which
he might have some culpability, not in areas in which he has helped
people and, in a positive manner, helped to publicize our beloved
game.

"henryitkin" henryitkin@cox.net

···

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pesach_kremen1 · January 14, 2020, 6:47pm

Good examples and true - As long as a business is run according to law honestly, it is up to the business owners how that business should be run. It is up to the consumers to patronize or not patronize it as we so choose.