The Eastside Cannery where Mr Dancer teaches his classes, is again in the business of denying mailers to players who play the very games he teaches. Even though I have played more than enough to earn their "High Flyer" staus, I am being denied a mailer as outlined in their slot club brochure.
Eastside Cannery Again Denying Mailers
Could you elaborate a little more? What do you think your "crime" was? Are you playing the 100%+ games? The JoB? It has certainly been difficult keeping up with this casino's policies. They're tough to figure out!
thx,
BB
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:
The Eastside Cannery where Mr Dancer teaches his classes, is again in the business of denying mailers to players who play the very games he teaches. Even though I have played more than enough to earn their "High Flyer" staus, I am being denied a mailer as outlined in their slot club brochure.
Have you actually asked them (or a host if you have one) if you are being denied, or are you assuming it?
Wouldn't surprise me - but on the other hand, I can see how the casino might look at someone who is already playing a lot and who appears to be an advantage player and figure there isn't a reason to send them any mailers, especially if they're a local. I wonder, if the rules are printed out in their slot club brochure and you can "prove" that you've met the standards, if they "have" to give you the status and any associated mailers that go with it - or - is it at the discretion of the casino whether or not they send mailers to any individual no matter their status. I imagine you would still get any privileges your status affords while you're at the casino.
Think about *why* a casino sends mailers:
a) to get more play from a possible gambler
b) to get more play from a confirmed gambler who gambles a lot and gives up lots of money
c) to get play from out of town gamblers rather than have them go somewhere else.
If you are already playing there and do not really give up a lot of profit to them, you can see why it isn't in their best interest to send you mailers unless they have to.
As an out of towner I see that the casinos send lots of mailers in the hopes of bringing you in and "finding out" what kind of player you might be - or - if you've been a big enough player they want you back when you do come to Vegas.
I would think they have the right to decide who to send offers to. As Diane mentioned, there are tons of interesting offers coming now, most likely because of the competition and the economy.
It's kind of fun.
Valerie
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4676 (20091210) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I never played any 100%+ games. I only played NSUD and JoB. My "crime" was probably doing the majority of play on 3X point days.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:
Could you elaborate a little more? What do you think your "crime" was? Are you playing the 100%+ games? The JoB? It has certainly been difficult keeping up with this casino's policies. They're tough to figure out!
I was told I am a "strong player" and ineligable for mailers.
<<I wonder, if the rules are printed out in their slot club brochure and you can "prove" that you've met the standards, if they "have" to give you the status and any associated mailers that go with it - or - is it at the discretion of the casino whether or not they send mailers to any individual no matter their status.>>>>
For "High Flyer" status the brochure says "Up to $75 weekly free cash/free play" based on play. Since $0 does not exceed $75, I guess they are not breaking the law! Sure as hell is deceitful if you ask me.
I am told I have been taken off the mailing list, again, because they have a "new" general manager. The "old" general manager sent me a letter apologizing for the previous GM taking me off the list the first time and assured me it is not the policy of Cannery Resorts to discriminate against customers. Apparently the new GM is not intelligent enough to balance his machine inventory and slot club promotions without again resorting to discriminatory practices.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Valerie Pollard" <vpollard@...> wrote:
Have you actually asked them (or a host if you have one) if you are being denied, or are you assuming it?>>
I am told I have been taken off the mailing list, again, because they have a "new" general manager. The "old" general manager sent me a letter apologizing for the previous GM taking me off the list the first time and assured me it is not the policy of Cannery Resorts to discriminate against customers. Apparently the new GM is not intelligent enough to balance his machine inventory and slot club promotions without again resorting to discriminatory practices.
I can see how using "advantage players" to learn what machines and
promotions need to be changed might be even better than discriminating
against them, but I don't see how a business manager discriminating
between customers who are profitable for his business and those who
aren't isn't intelligent.
Well, that is not encouraging. Looks like you are doomed because you were branded by the first fiasco, but now I'm wondering what a new player can do to avoid your "mistake". Would a player just playing Bonus Poker on some of their few promo days also be punished? I dunno, maybe it's better just to skip this casino and avoid the aggravation. Seems to me this new manager is being a little near-sighted.
And what's up with the multiplier days and the Neighborhood Partners days? There aren't any! Hey "New Manager", happy holidays, scrooge!
-BB
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:
I am told I have been taken off the mailing list, again, because they have a "new" general manager. The "old" general manager sent me a letter apologizing for the previous GM taking me off the list the first time and assured me it is not the policy of Cannery Resorts to discriminate against customers. Apparently the new GM is not intelligent enough to balance his machine inventory and slot club promotions without again resorting to discriminatory practices.
I like Paladin's viewpoint where an intelligent casino manager offers games and promotions with a level of complexity that allows the casino to make a profit while still giving the player a good play. It appears the GM has identified 3X point multipliers and certain games like 2 Pair Joker Wild as too generous by monitoring the advantage players and has eliminated both. Fine. But why then also cheat players out of advertised benefits AFTER they have played by the published rules? If the game is less profitable, the advantage gambler will play less and be out of the GM's hair in a short time anyway. As with all discrimination, I am certain I would be less offended if I were not the subject! 
···
-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:
I can see how using "advantage players" to learn what machines and
promotions need to be changed might be even better than discriminating
against them, but I don't see how a business manager discriminating
between customers who are profitable for his business and those who
aren't isn't intelligent.
That's the solution exactly. Why risk your money at an improperly run casino? Wait until the dust settles and they decide they want customers again. Most likely the promos will be better then anyway, they will have to promote heavily to get any gambling customers back. It's not worth taking the risk now and chance of getting black listed and missing out on the promos to come.
NGR 5.011 Grounds for disciplinary action. The board and the commission deem any activity on
the part of any licensee, his agents or employees, that is inimical to the public health, safety,
morals, good order and general welfare of the people of the State of Nevada, or that would reflect
or tend to reflect discredit upon the State of Nevada or the gaming industry, to be an unsuitable
method of operation and shall be grounds for disciplinary action by the board and the commission
in accordance with the Nevada Gaming Control Act and the regulations of the board and the
commission.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:
Well, that is not encouraging. Looks like you are doomed because you were branded by the first fiasco, but now I'm wondering what a new player can do to avoid your "mistake". Would a player just playing Bonus Poker on some of their few promo days also be punished? I dunno, maybe it's better just to skip this casino and avoid the aggravation.
But you're using the word "discrimination" without qualifying whether
it's for what you can control or not. Most enlightened people regard
discriminating against people on the basis of race or gender wrong,
but I infer from your lack of qualification that you're trying to get
the same kind of moral position for what business you give a casino.
I agree that what you've described is cheating, as I just found out
about my points at Terrible's, where, unless I've misunderstood,
points earned when the redemption rate for free play was 400 points
per dollar can be redeemed only at the rate of 500 points per dollar,
but that it's discriminatory is morally irrelevant. If they did it to
everyone, it would still be cheating, whereas if everyone had to go to
the back of the bus, it would be neither cheating nor discriminatory.
···
-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:
I can see how using "advantage players" to learn what machines and
promotions need to be changed might be even better than discriminating
against them, but I don't see how a business manager discriminating
between customers who are profitable for his business and those who
aren't isn't intelligent.I like Paladin's viewpoint where an intelligent casino manager offers games and promotions with a level of complexity that allows the casino to make a profit while still giving the player a good play. It appears the GM has identified 3X point multipliers and certain games like 2 Pair Joker Wild as too generous by monitoring the advantage players and has eliminated both. Fine. But why then also cheat players out of advertised benefits AFTER they have played by the published rules? If the game is less profitable, the advantage gambler will play less and be out of the GM's hair in a short time anyway. As with all discrimination, I am certain I would be less offended if I were not the subject!
Obviously I'm taking liberties and playing with the word discrimination. In no way do I think this treatment by the casino is on the same scale as race or gender discrimination. Without going to a dictionary, I think discrimination has a meaning of being singled out and selectively treated differently under the same conditions. In this situation, I don't think everyone who has played the $1/$2 Jacks or Better Ten Play has had their mailers denied. Mr Dancer has written in his acticles, and I have seen him playing this machine. If he still gets a mailer and I don't, for similar play, isn't that a form of discrimination? If some players get High Flyer mailers for 125,000 points in three months as outlined in the slot club brochure and some don't, for the same amount of play, isn't that discrimination?
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:
But you're using the word "discrimination" without qualifying whether
it's for what you can control or not. Most enlightened people regard
discriminating against people on the basis of race or gender wrong,
but I infer from your lack of qualification that you're trying to get
the same kind of moral position for what business you give a casino.
obviously, the NGR is there mostly for the protection of the casinos. Why hasn't Terribles, Tuscany, Ellis Island, Station Casinos, Rampart and Cannery's been repromanded for their behavior towards customers that can actually think. Ever hear of a grocery store banning customers because they only bought items that were on sale? of course not, yet the grocery stores are not making much, if any, money off of some of theses loss leaders. Corporate Las Vegas sucks and until the corporate mentality is gone, nothing will get better.
···
NGR 5.011 Grounds for disciplinary action. The board and the commission deem any activity on
the part of any licensee, his agents or employees, that is inimical to the public health, safety,
morals, good order and general welfare of the people of the State of Nevada, or that would reflect
or tend to reflect discredit upon the State of Nevada or the gaming industry, to be an unsuitable
method of operation and shall be grounds for disciplinary action by the board and the commission
in accordance with the Nevada Gaming Control Act and the regulations of the board and the
commission.
As long as the selection criterium is valid. You can't assume that everyone who plays on multiplier days is a winning customer. You also shouldn't assume that everyone who plays a potentially positive game is a winning customer, many can't play to Bob Dancer error free standards. It is my observation that casinos have been too aggressive over the last several years, and have chased away many customers that I personally would have no trouble dealing to (because their game is not good enough, they simply got luckly or looked too much like they knew what they were doing). Also, casinos don't consider word of mouth, as word of mouth spreads about unfair practices at casinos, more and more potential customers simply don't even bother going, even if the promotion looks good on paper, casinos have simply lost a lot of credibility. "Losers only" policy is bad for business and bad for Las Vegas.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:
I can see how using "advantage players" to learn what machines and
promotions need to be changed might be even better than discriminating
against them, but I don't see how a business manager discriminating
between customers who are profitable for his business and those who
aren't isn't intelligent.
He gets payed by the casinos to play. In the old days we had a word for that.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:
Mr Dancer has written in his acticles, and I have seen him playing this machine.
Good post, I like your comparison to the grocery store scenario. That's the way it should be, but probably never will be with casinos. At least for the fleas, I just can't see how this hurts the casinos to let them make a little money. Essentially, many small players are probably like break-even shills, let them grind away, just get people into your casino.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bdhabm" <bdhabm@...> wrote:
obviously, the NGR is there mostly for the protection of the casinos. Why hasn't Terribles, Tuscany, Ellis Island, Station Casinos, Rampart and Cannery's been repromanded for their behavior towards customers that can actually think. Ever hear of a grocery store banning customers because they only bought items that were on sale? of course not, yet the grocery stores are not making much, if any, money off of some of theses loss leaders. Corporate Las Vegas sucks and until the corporate mentality is gone, nothing will get better.
I agree, I like what you said was Paladin's viewpoint also. And how about more progressives? Aren't progressives basically a win-win situation, for the casino and the smart player too? I don't even think Eastside has any progressives, unless I missed them. If they do, don't say anything, I don't want to mess that up.
By the way, did they have JW2? Or are you referring to the ones they took away at Ramparts. And I still cannot imagine that any casino would not make money off JW2. It is too complicated for many people to beat.
And what the heck anyway, I thought Eastside Cannery was interested in having a loose image and bragging rights for the best machines on the Boulder Strip. This is a strange way to be player-friendly.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:
I like Paladin's viewpoint where an intelligent casino manager offers games and promotions with a level of complexity that allows the casino to make a profit while still giving the player a good play. It appears the GM has identified 3X point multipliers and certain games like 2 Pair Joker Wild as too generous by monitoring the advantage players and has eliminated both. Fine. But why then also cheat players out of advertised benefits AFTER they have played by the published rules? If the game is less profitable, the advantage gambler will play less and be out of the GM's hair in a short time anyway. As with all discrimination, I am certain I would be less offended if I were not the subject!
<<Ever hear of a grocery store banning customers because they only bought items that were on sale?>>
Not grocery stores, but seems like I did hear some years back that an electronics store - maybe Best Buy? - were "cutting off" customers who heavily used the rebate system. I forget the details. But I remember thinking that would hurt couponers like me!!!!
···
________________
Jean $�ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/
And how about more progressives? Aren't progressives basically a win-win situation, for the casino and the smart player too? >>
I'm not a big fan of progressives. As has been discussed before, they frequently cause ill will when the unknowledgable players that feed them until they get juicy, get shut out by wise guys when they are positive.
By the way, did they have JW2? >>>
Yes in the high limit area. Up to $2 denomination I believe.
And what the heck anyway, I thought Eastside Cannery was interested in having a loose image and bragging rights for the best machines on the Boulder Strip. This is a strange way to be player-friendly.
I think they abandoned that campaign a GM or two ago. They still have a few machines with good paytables. I believe these will only survive until Bob's classes are complete.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:
Hi fellow vp players! I'm new here and have been a 4-year slot manager at Terribles in Pahrump until a little over a year ago. We occasionally sent out mailers to the townspeople (they're called locals in Las V.) and some were pretty inviting. I'm an advantage type player and at times I calculated that those mailers brought certain games up over 101%. All we wanted to do was get players in the door. Didn't care if they won or lost or who they were (although we know many of them personally anyway). We knew we'd increase revenue and take because we always did, and that's all that mattered.
I have seen some Las V. pros at times during these special promotions who were very noticeable because of the long hours they would sit at the machines. They were just as welcome as anybody, in fact sometimes greater because they'd play the higher limit machines. Casinos that ban vid poker players have a thing or two to learn. Mistakes are one thing, but promos are another altogether.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:
<<Ever hear of a grocery store banning customers because they only bought
items that were on sale?>>Not grocery stores, but seems like I did hear some years back that an
electronics store - maybe Best Buy? - were "cutting off" customers who
heavily used the rebate system. I forget the details. But I remember
thinking that would hurt couponers like me!!!!
________________
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/
Following is why I think casinos who back off winning players (assuming they are not truly cheating) is not in their long term best interest:
A casino's core "value proposition" to their customers is you have an opportunity to "beat" the house. Without that possibility, a casino visit would hold little interest for most. People understand that means the house also has the opportunity to beat them. When a casino starts punishing those who are successful in "beating' the house and that information becomes known (and in this internet day and age, casinos vastly underestimate how likely that is), then people rapidly lose interest in the deal. If you hold only downside risk and no upside potential, the game quickly becomes much less interesting.
Casinos who do this are gaining relatively little in the elimination of advantage player losses in the short term at the expense of eliminating the core reason people to patronize their establishments. Not a very good business strategy really.
···
________________________________
From: bobbartop <bobbartop@yahoo.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, December 11, 2009 5:41:31 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Eastside Cannery Again Denying Mailers
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:
I am told I have been taken off the mailing list, again, because they have a "new" general manager. The "old" general manager sent me a letter apologizing for the previous GM taking me off the list the first time and assured me it is not the policy of Cannery Resorts to discriminate against customers. Apparently the new GM is not intelligent enough to balance his machine inventory and slot club promotions without again resorting to discriminatory practices.
Well, that is not encouraging. Looks like you are doomed because you were branded by the first fiasco, but now I'm wondering what a new player can do to avoid your "mistake". Would a player just playing Bonus Poker on some of their few promo days also be punished? I dunno, maybe it's better just to skip this casino and avoid the aggravation. Seems to me this new manager is being a little near-sighted.
And what's up with the multiplier days and the Neighborhood Partners days? There aren't any! Hey "New Manager", happy holidays, scrooge!
-BB
------------------------------------
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]