vpFREE2 Forums

Eastside Cannery Again Denying Mailers

#21

Obviously I'm taking liberties and playing with the word discrimination.

If some players get High Flyer mailers for 125,000 points in three months as
outlined in the slot club brochure and some don't, for the same amount of
play, isn't that discrimination?

As a software developer who used to work for many of the Fortune 500s, I
think this the exact opposite of discrimination. I think a lot of this
comes down to database entries, which aren't so much discriminatory, but
profile based on certain marketing campaigns. It takes way, way too much
energy for the floor personal to flag a specific person from a single promo.
It's more likely that the marketing guy in a completely different department
who never enters the casino proper who may even live in an entirely
different state is defining a comparative marketing promo that is sent to
your buddy down the street and you get missed.

My husband and I often get the same mailers. Sometimes just one of us and
sometimes a friend gets it and we don't. It's not something we take
personally. Partly because we're all computer dorks, partly because
marketing mailers often get lost by our stellar mail system and because
technology is a bitch when defined by humans.

Consider that factors such as mailing address's geographic distance from the
casino, time since last visit, play though since last visit, number of
visits to the casino, average coin-through, etc. are all selection criteria.
AND then consider that when setting up a marketing campaign are almost
always set up as scientific experiments to figure out what type cheese
motivates the mouse so now the computers may randomly assign you to the
"really cool offer" group, a control group, or the "mediocre-I can't believe
you wasted the postal" offer group.

That's just business. And ironically being a piece of data in a computer
becomes the most fair but feels crappy when Joe down the street gets the 5x
points, $100 in Freeplay, and steak dinner and you get offered the cheesy
$1.25/unit teddy bear only after you push at least $30,000 coin-in.

Now, if the casino sends you a specific offer or advertises a specific
program, you play and they don't honor it. That's fraud on a number of
different levels. But even then, you need to do your homework ahead of time
to make sure that you didn't interpret the offer incorrectly.

#22

Following is why I think casinos who back off winning players (assuming they are not truly cheating) is not in their long term best interest:

A casino's core "value proposition" to their customers is you have an opportunity to "beat" the house. Without that possibility, a casino visit would hold little interest for most. People understand that means the house also has the opportunity to beat them. When a casino starts punishing those who are successful in "beating' the house and that information becomes known (and in this internet day and age, casinos vastly underestimate how likely that is), then people rapidly lose interest in the deal. If you hold only downside risk and no upside potential, the game quickly becomes much less interesting.

Casinos who do this are gaining relatively little in the elimination of advantage player losses in the short term at the expense of eliminating the core reason people to patronize their establishments. Not a very good business strategy really.

It depends on what "beat" means. Barring or discouraging advantage
players hardly means that unskillful gamblers can't "beat" the casino
by getting lucky. Casinos want everyone to believe they can win by
getting lucky, but it's debatable that they want anyone to know that
players can win in the long run. It may depend on how much advantage
is available and the extent to which losing players believe they're
advantage players.

#23
#24

From one of Dancer's recent class handouts:

"Several casinos have decided to restrict players who ALWAYS play the loosest video poker game and ALWAYS on multiple point days. If this relects your pattern, you should consider a small amount of play (perhaps $100 coin-in or less) each mont on a slot machine. It will cost you a few dollares in EV, but may extend your welcome"

So maybe you should consider it.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:

I never played any 100%+ games. I only played NSUD and JoB. >My "crime" was probably doing the majority of play on 3X point days.

#25

The problem is it's difficult to distinguish "skillful" winners from "lucky" winners, so typically, today, all winners get backed off. Even worse, many losers also get backed off, just for playing the "wrong" machine (the casino put the machine in as a sting, like cops posing as hookers) or for playing on multiplier days or for taking advantage of a promotion.

Standard casino policy today is "Losers Only". That's terrible for business obviously, and a blight on the industry (and also the few casinos who reject "Losers Only") and the state of Nevada, but that's the current policy. Eventually, it will change, due to the "invisible hand of the free market", but it might take a while and a few more bankruptcies and restructurings.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:

It depends on what "beat" means. Barring or discouraging advantage
players hardly means that unskillful gamblers can't "beat" the casino
by getting lucky.

#26

     The Eastside Cannery where Mr Dancer teaches his classes, is again in

the business of denying mailers to players who play the very games he
teaches.

If I'm not mistaken, the Dancer VP class schedule at Eastside Cannery was
from Sept. 2ond to Nov. 4th.. I realize that here on vpFREE, the number one
choice for a video poker "scrapegoat", by a really wide margin, elected by a
not so silent small minority of even smaller minds, is Bob Dancer. This
king of downgrade title that some of you have
bestowed on him is totally outrageous. When the latest downgrade on a game
that I played at Eastside Cannery came in the last week of Nov., the removal
of the ten play dime NSUD,
Mr. Dancer's classes were long over with. I know a lot of you here firmly
believe that most casino managers have only a two digit I.Q., but don't you
think that it could be quite possible that some of them are proficient at
their jobs? Is it unlikely that none of them know what data to even look
at? Do you think that none of them understand the hold and theo. figures
generated by their own software? You guys crack me up.
                                    Nudge

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From: "vegasvpplayer"
Subject: [vpFREE] Eastside Cannery Again Denying Mailers

#27

I will say this much.. JW2 is very hard. It is the postdoctorate work of video poker. It took me 80 hours to master it, and people still had to point out hands to me like the one Q-hold in that game (Q, 7-3s,8-4s, or as JW2 aficionados call it, the "double 'y' [Sf2i3]" hand. Some pros do JW2 trivia with each other.

Still, you'd be surprised who can play it well. Apparently it was no surprise to the folks at Rampart or EC, who pulled the game. That being said, I suspect the game got pulled by recommendation of their consultant. Although I can't see the numbers, I'm guessing that one might have been the right call. But then again, the economy, again, the worst since the Depression, is probably causing the most player hostile atmosphere ever in local LV, because the slot suits are trying to save their jobs by pointing fingers at the players. Or maybe the only people playing dollars and higher at certain casinos in Vegas are skilled players.

But, I was thinking a lot harder than that. OEJ (IGT 99.98/100.28) would be a start. Maybe even the old Sigma 100.35 DJW 10-9-6 game, but you can play essentially a JW2 strategy with some obvious changes, and you don't lose too much.

The IGT 9-5 DJW, too many people know how to play it. There's one bank left, for dollars, BTW. It's nowhere near AC, either. It's not going anywhere, either, you get the game, a little .cb and that's it. However two years ago, there were 2-3% plays on that bank...but I'm digressing.

Ultimate X is a step in the right direction, but something makes me think IGT missed something there. It also might be too hard (unless you're a scalper).

The folks at Action Gaming/IGT need to put out stuff which is harder to play, not just ramp up the variance. There's enough variance already in video poker. Video poker has long been sold to the masses as a game of skill. Why not make it a real game of skill? Sorry, folks, Jacks or Better, or even NSUD is not that challenging to learn if you're up for it.

Finally, why would you play someplace which hires Dancer as a consultant, at this point in time? Maybe now you understand why he should be frozen out of VPFree.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@> wrote:
>

>
> I like Paladin's viewpoint where an intelligent casino manager offers games and promotions with a level of complexity that allows the casino to make a profit while still giving the player a good play. It appears the GM has identified 3X point multipliers and certain games like 2 Pair Joker Wild as too generous by monitoring the advantage players and has eliminated both. Fine. But why then also cheat players out of advertised benefits AFTER they have played by the published rules? If the game is less profitable, the advantage gambler will play less and be out of the GM's hair in a short time anyway. As with all discrimination, I am certain I would be less offended if I were not the subject! :slight_smile:
>

I agree, I like what you said was Paladin's viewpoint also. And how about more progressives? Aren't progressives basically a win-win situation, for the casino and the smart player too? I don't even think Eastside has any progressives, unless I missed them. If they do, don't say anything, I don't want to mess that up.

By the way, did they have JW2? Or are you referring to the ones they took away at Ramparts. And I still cannot imagine that any casino would not make money off JW2. It is too complicated for many people to beat.

And what the heck anyway, I thought Eastside Cannery was interested in having a loose image and bragging rights for the best machines on the Boulder Strip. This is a strange way to be player-friendly.

#28

And some CC issuers also will cut you off for paying your bill on time each month.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

<<Ever hear of a grocery store banning customers because they only bought
items that were on sale?>>

Not grocery stores, but seems like I did hear some years back that an
electronics store - maybe Best Buy? - were "cutting off" customers who
heavily used the rebate system. I forget the details. But I remember
thinking that would hurt couponers like me!!!! :slight_smile:
________________
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

#29

Some pros do JW2 trivia with each other.

lol Sounds like fun!

But then again, the economy, again, the worst since the Depression, > is probably causing the most player hostile atmosphere ever in
local LV, because the slot suits are trying to save their jobs by >pointing fingers at the players. Or maybe the only people playing >dollars and higher at certain casinos in Vegas are skilled players.

Makes a lot of sense. You are an interesting fellow to read.

-BB

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "WP SF" <paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

#30

Let me put it in simple terms: would you deal to you? Thought so.

We'll see how the casinos do with the witchhunt. No doubt, they are getting some help without looking into player history records; no doubt someone is telling them exactly who, in their opinion, is unprofitable.

#31

You won't be reading me in the R-J either lol. Not at least I got somethin' to pimp lolol.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "WP SF" <paladingamingllc@> wrote:
>
> Some pros do JW2 trivia with each other.
>

lol Sounds like fun!

> But then again, the economy, again, the worst since the Depression, > is probably causing the most player hostile atmosphere ever in
> local LV, because the slot suits are trying to save their jobs by >pointing fingers at the players. Or maybe the only people playing >dollars and higher at certain casinos in Vegas are skilled players.
>

Makes a lot of sense. You are an interesting fellow to read.

#32

Let me put it in simple terms: would you deal to you? Thought so.

We'll see how the casinos do with the witchhunt. No doubt, they are

getting some help without looking into player history records; no doubt
someone is telling them exactly who, in their opinion, is unprofitable.

Just out of curiosity, which post in this thread is this a response to? You
failed to include any text from that post.
                                   Nudge

···

From: "WP SF"
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Eastside Cannery Again Denying Mailers

#33

Just recieved this from Days Inn.
http://emails.daysinn.com/w/webView?cid=13394079932&mid=1112233256&pid=414090&vid=13598&ee=TkhBUkFNSUpBQFdPV1dBWS5DT00_&si=&mv=R&bv=H&oc=N&sc=&k=12IrKe
Sorry I dont know tiny urls
Nick

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.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#34

The ad says they will waive the $11 "casino fee". I think the gaming commission will be interested to hear they are planning to charge an $11.00 "casino fee" (though I imagine they must mean the dreaded "resort fee").

Though, if that's what they mean, they should probably also be reported to the BBB and attorney general for misleading advertising in implying the place is a "resort".

ST

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Hapycro1929 <hapycro1929@...> wrote:

Just recieved this from Days Inn.
http://emails.daysinn.com/w/webView?cid=13394079932&mid=1112233256&pid=414090&vid=13598&ee=TkhBUkFNSUpBQFdPV1dBWS5DT00_&si=&mv=R&bv=H&oc=N&sc=&k=12IrKe
Sorry I dont know tiny urls
Nick

Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#35

Here's the tiny url:

http://tinyurl.com/yby7f5a

<a href="http://tinyurl.com/yby7f5a">
http://tinyurl.com/yby7f5a</a>

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On 15 Dec 2009 at 10:36, Hapycro1929 wrote:

Just recieved this from Days Inn.
http://emails.daysinn.com/w/webView?cid=13394079932&mid=1112233256&pid=414090&vid=13598&ee=TkhBUk
FNSUpBQFdPV1dBWS5DT00_&si=&mv=R&bv=H&oc=N&sc=&k=12IrKe Sorry I dont know tiny urls Nick

#36

We play the ES 100% machines at the Cannery, we also play slots. Couple things...

Cannery is out of my way, but we go for 2 reasons.
1. 100% machines
2. Trinkets

They stopped the weekly trinkets (I love those things, and yes they are kitchy)

So, now they have only the 100% machines.

Husband and I both have demanding and stressful jobs. So, we play video poker NOT to think. We play slots to contemplate things.

Take out the 100% machines and we will be playing closer to home.

We play more slots the VP, are high flyers, and if they take out the machines, we're gone

cam

#37

Sounds reasonable. Cannery also has those nice vp machines that are easy on the eyes. But I picked up a trinket this summer that wasn't worth 2 cents. Some kind of supposed window shade that had no stiffness and wouldn't hold up even with the BIG sun visors in my pickup.

···

________________________________
From: camwellcam <camwellcam@yahoo.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, December 19, 2009 6:28:53 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Eastside Cannery Again Denying Mailers

We play the ES 100% machines at the Cannery, we also play slots. Couple things...

Cannery is out of my way, but we go for 2 reasons.
1. 100% machines
2. Trinkets

They stopped the weekly trinkets (I love those things, and yes they are kitchy)

So, now they have only the 100% machines.

Husband and I both have demanding and stressful jobs. So, we play video poker NOT to think. We play slots to contemplate things.

Take out the 100% machines and we will be playing closer to home.

We play more slots the VP, are high flyers, and if they take out the machines, we're gone

cam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]