vpFREE2 Forums

Conflict of interest/ purpose by "Experts" ??!!

#1

So the experts of video poker will educate us on how to play
optimally and hopefully win.

They also will sell us products which we buy so that we can improve.

They will then 'work' (get paid) for the casinos and 'educate' them
on how to improve the casino's edge and cut down the player's edge.

So is there any conflict of interest/ purpose here ?

Are we - the players- 'wrong' in supporting them - the experts by
buying their products ?!

The 'experts' only have business/ monetary interest in all of this
and if they help the casinos to cut down our 'edge' then should the
players unite and ...............

Fill in the blanks please !

Thanks for your reading/ comments.

#2

So the experts of video poker will educate us on how to play
optimally and hopefully win.

They also will sell us products which we buy so that we can improve.

They will then 'work' (get paid) for the casinos and 'educate' them
on how to improve the casino's edge and cut down the player's edge.

So is there any conflict of interest/ purpose here ?

Are we - the players- 'wrong' in supporting them - the experts by
buying their products ?!

The 'experts' only have business/ monetary interest in all of this
and if they help the casinos to cut down our 'edge' then should the
players unite and ...............

Fill in the blanks please !

Well, that's just it. What? It relates to the thread about video
poker players competing with each other. The way in which casinos
operate poker rooms, taking a cut of the action but having no stake in
the result, is, in effect, to a great extent, at least, how video
poker works. The real competition is between the players, with the
casino taking its cut by putting in machines that bad players will
lose more on than good players will win on.

I'm sure there is a conflict of interest, but if it doesn't mean that
you've been deceived in buying the product, why would you want to do
anything about it?

#3

It's the age-old puzzle. All of us want good information on how to play better, etc., much of which many of us couldn't figure out on our own. But then after we become skilled and don't need that info anymore, we want the experts to stop putting out the information so few in the future can become experts.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

#4

Jean Scott wrote:

It's the age-old puzzle. All of us want good information on how to
play better, etc., much of which many of us couldn't figure out on our
own. But then after we become skilled and don't need that info
anymore, we want the experts to stop putting out the information so
few in the future can become experts.

So where's the puzzle? When ya gonna get with the program, Jean :wink:

- H.

#5

It's the age-old puzzle. All of us want good information on how to

play

better, etc., much of which many of us couldn't figure out on our

own. But

then after we become skilled and don't need that info anymore, we

want the

experts to stop putting out the information so few in the future can

become

experts.

Interesting thoughts...I'll respond here because I have a lot of
respect for Ms. Scott.

Yes, there's this spectrum, which ranges from players doing their own
programming (before Winpoker), to players needing to have pretty much
everything spoonfed to them, and then they'd still probably mess it
up. I lean towards the former, although Winpoker is admittedly a great
tool (probably in retrospect, a little too great). Information will
always be one's greatest asset, unfortunately many here don't
understand that. Experience helps, too.

I play 5 or 6 games fairly close to perfect, including a couple of
really tough ones. The progressives not quite perfect, but I'm not
giving up much, either. I'm much more interested in hunting down the
play, because if the play is strong enough, who cares about giving up
.05 to .1%?

In regards to VPFree, I prefer to educate by relating anecdotes. My
take has been, either you get it or you don't. Since a play is
"information", and information is a fungible asset, I usually deal
with these after the fact.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:

_______________________________________________________________________

Coming soon: www.paladingaming.net

#6

It's the age-old puzzle. All of us want good information on how to

play

better, etc., much of which many of us couldn't figure out on our

own. But

then after we become skilled and don't need that info anymore, we

want the

experts to stop putting out the information so few in the future can

become

experts.

putting out information for other players is one thing. selling your
services to casinos to help them make more money and to determine who
the best vp players are is another. i don't believe anyone should work
both sides of the fence.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:

#7

It's the age-old puzzle. All of us want good information on how to

play

better, etc., much of which many of us couldn't figure out on our

own. But

then after we become skilled and don't need that info anymore, we

want the

experts to stop putting out the information so few in the future

can
become

experts.

First, I think we give casino mngt a lot more credit than they
deserve. If they didn't have "VP experts" telling them which games
will attract players, they would never get it right. Other than the
game builders, the only input they get is from expert players. So I
don't view VP experts advising the casinos as a conflict of
interest. They may actually make offerings better. But that's just
my opinion, and I'm sure many others will disagree.

Second, I don't think VP experts have much impact on the general
public. The vast majority of players seem very uninformed. Most
have never read anything about paytables, strategy, or comps, and
could care less. They may know that 9/6JB is a "good game", but
don't really know why, or even how to play it well. Out of millions
of VPers, there are only 5-6000 on this board. That says something
about most players. There are only 2-4 good VP books, and it's my
impression they sell poorly. Every time I tell someone new to VP
that some players actually make a profit, they usually don't believe
me.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:

#8

before we had vp experts advising casinos on what games would attract people,
  we had 100+ deuces wild, jokers wild, and several bonus games. thank you experts.

It's the age-old puzzle. All of us want good information on how to

play

better, etc., much of which many of us couldn't figure out on our

own. But

then after we become skilled and don't need that info anymore, we

want the

experts to stop putting out the information so few in the future

can
become

experts.

First, I think we give casino mngt a lot more credit than they
deserve. If they didn't have "VP experts" telling them which games
will attract players, they would never get it right. Other than the
game builders, the only input they get is from expert players. So I
don't view VP experts advising the casinos as a conflict of
interest. They may actually make offerings better. But that's just
my opinion, and I'm sure many others will disagree.

Second, I don't think VP experts have much impact on the general
public. The vast majority of players seem very uninformed. Most
have never read anything about paytables, strategy, or comps, and
could care less. They may know that 9/6JB is a "good game", but
don't really know why, or even how to play it well. Out of millions
of VPers, there are only 5-6000 on this board. That says something
about most players. There are only 2-4 good VP books, and it's my
impression they sell poorly. Every time I tell someone new to VP
that some players actually make a profit, they usually don't believe
me.

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brumar_lv <brumar_lv@yahoo.com> wrote:
  --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:
    
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#9

So the experts of video poker will educate us on how to play
optimally and hopefully win.

They also will sell us products which we buy so that we can improve.

They will then 'work' (get paid) for the casinos and 'educate'

them

on how to improve the casino's edge and cut down the player's edge.

So is there any conflict of interest/ purpose here ?

Are we - the players- 'wrong' in supporting them - the experts by
buying their products ?!

The 'experts' only have business/ monetary interest in all of this
and if they help the casinos to cut down our 'edge' then should the
players unite and ...............

Fill in the blanks please !

Thanks for your reading/ comments.

Great post!! I use winpoker & all of the info i find to become the
best player i can be & I share all info i can find because that is
what I want to do.
  I strongly disagree with Ms Scott assertion that all or most of us
dont want share info with others after we learned. Thats why some of
joined a site call VPfree in the first place.

M J

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nirpam" <nirpam@...> wrote:

#10

<<before we had vp experts advising casinos on what games would attract people,
  we had 100+ deuces wild, jokers wild, and several bonus games. thank you experts.>>

Just to make clear here, although you may not be referring to me specifically. I do NOT work for casinos on technical things like game selection and I would never "out" an advantage player to a casino. I do occasionally speak at seminars for various casino executives. I am asked to do this in order to give the player's side of casino practices. For example, I talk to hosts and tell them customers like them replying to our e-mails and returning our phone calls promptly. I talk to marketing people about what we hate about drawings, i.e. we have to wait long periods in crowded areas. I talk about how customers like the personal touch in a casino, etc., etc. I talk about a lot of the gripes I read about on this forum, i.e., long lines.

I hope that what I do will make things better for us, not worse.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

#11

<<I strongly disagree with Ms Scott assertion that all or most of us
dont want share info with others after we learned. Thats why some of
joined a site call VPfree in the first place.>>

I didn't mean that all people felt that way. I am constantly amazed and thankful that so many share on these forums.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

#12

It makes perfect sense for "expert" players like Ms $cott to educate the casinos, however I
believe it would make better sense for the casinos to actively figure out how to cater to the
expert players by keeping them in the fold.

It would be a simple matter for any casino executive with a modicum of smarts to
subscribe to any of the VP groups that are free or that are by paid subscription. By doing
so they would gain an advantage over their competition by seeing how they can make the
casino experience more worthwhile for the "smart" vp players by gaining their loyalty
through promotions, decent cashback or FPVP and keep those players happy and in their
seats playing VP around the clock. In turn having people playing in a casino draws more
people and the majority of those people will not be generally skilled or discerning players
who will differentiate between short-pay or full pay.

To have a small yet quite vocal group of people declaring to one and all over and over
again that there is nothing "playable" in certain casinos must have a harmful impact in the
long run. Recent experience showed me that at New York New York many banks of short
pay VP machines remain empty for hours at a time (on a weekend night too) . More
particularly they used to have FP Pick'em and any time I used to play there was always a
couple of the machines that were occupied. Now they have the ripoff kind and they stay
quite empty as I noticed walking past them several times at different times of the day.

There used to be the old gambit of keeping "loose" machines near where the majority of
people pass by so they could see others playing and winning. By doing so the casinos
attracted more players than not. Why not do the same and install more FPVP machines
begs the question?

MO

···

<<I strongly disagree with Ms Scott assertion that all or most of us
dont want share info with others after we learned. Thats why some of
joined a site call VPfree in the first place.>>

I didn't mean that all people felt that way. I am constantly amazed and
thankful that so many share on these forums.

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

#13

<<It makes perfect sense for "expert" players like Ms $cott to educate the casinos, however I
believe it would make better sense for the casinos to actively figure out how to cater to the
expert players by keeping them in the fold.>>

Although casino executives - in Vegas particularly - are more knowledgeable about video poker and skilled players - they can read/use the same resources that we do - I am constantly surprised at how many know all about their job but little or nothing about their customers' needs and wants. Many of the seminars where I speak are full of casino executives/employees from Indian casinos who don't have a clue yet about the "real gambling world."

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

#14

It would interesting to see sales figures for Paymar's, Dancer's, & Wong's VP books compared vs so-called VP experts like Patrick, Scoblete's, Singer, etc. Based on my visits to bookstores (other than Gamblers in LV), I see more of Patrick & Co than Paymar & Co. Messeur Brumar may have a point. :slight_smile:
  Bob

brumar_lv <brumar_lv@yahoo.com> wrote:
  > Second, I don't think VP experts have much impact on the general public. The vast majority of players seem very uninformed. Most have never read anything about paytables, strategy, or comps, and could care less. There are only 2-4 good VP books, and it's my >impression they sell poorly.

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#15

I don't agree that the poor paytables sit empty - I think the large
majority of players don't care whether it's 9/6 or 7/5. I think
they'll play whatever is there. How many friends do you have that
play but don't know a thing about paytables or even the significant
difference between vp and a slot maching?

Another question is how long it is before those players don't come
back - people only have so much money and for some if they lose it
all (playing poor paytables) it means they can't or don't come back.

It makes perfect sense for "expert" players like Ms $cott to

educate the casinos, however I

believe it would make better sense for the casinos to actively

figure out how to cater to the

expert players by keeping them in the fold.

It would be a simple matter for any casino executive with a modicum

of smarts to

subscribe to any of the VP groups that are free or that are by paid

subscription. By doing

so they would gain an advantage over their competition by seeing

how they can make the

casino experience more worthwhile for the "smart" vp players by

gaining their loyalty

through promotions, decent cashback or FPVP and keep those players

happy and in their

seats playing VP around the clock. In turn having people playing in

a casino draws more

people and the majority of those people will not be generally

skilled or discerning players

who will differentiate between short-pay or full pay.

To have a small yet quite vocal group of people declaring to one

and all over and over

again that there is nothing "playable" in certain casinos must have

a harmful impact in the

long run. Recent experience showed me that at New York New York

many banks of short

pay VP machines remain empty for hours at a time (on a weekend

night too) . More

particularly they used to have FP Pick'em and any time I used to

play there was always a

couple of the machines that were occupied. Now they have the ripoff

kind and they stay

quite empty as I noticed walking past them several times at

different times of the day.

There used to be the old gambit of keeping "loose" machines near

where the majority of

people pass by so they could see others playing and winning. By

doing so the casinos

attracted more players than not. Why not do the same and install

more FPVP machines

begs the question?

MO

>
> <<I strongly disagree with Ms Scott assertion that all or most of

us

> dont want share info with others after we learned. Thats why some

of

> joined a site call VPfree in the first place.>>
>
> I didn't mean that all people felt that way. I am constantly

amazed and

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mofromto2" <mofromto@...> wrote:

> thankful that so many share on these forums.
>
> ________________________________________
> Jean $¢ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
> Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
> for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
> of your questions!
>

#16

I think you illustrate my point. The inevitable eventuality is that eventually they won't come
back. I have stoppped going back to many casinos where I don't feel I have an even chance
of winning as I did before or because the paytables are so bad as to what they used to be.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bedioyscans2000" <bedioyscans2000@...> wrote:

I don't agree that the poor paytables sit empty - I think the large
majority of players don't care whether it's 9/6 or 7/5. I think
they'll play whatever is there. How many friends do you have that
play but don't know a thing about paytables or even the significant
difference between vp and a slot maching?

Another question is how long it is before those players don't come
back - people only have so much money and for some if they lose it
all (playing poor paytables) it means they can't or don't come back.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mofromto2" <mofromto@> wrote:
>
> It makes perfect sense for "expert" players like Ms $cott to
educate the casinos, however I
> believe it would make better sense for the casinos to actively
figure out how to cater to the
> expert players by keeping them in the fold.
>
> It would be a simple matter for any casino executive with a modicum
of smarts to
> subscribe to any of the VP groups that are free or that are by paid
subscription. By doing
> so they would gain an advantage over their competition by seeing
how they can make the
> casino experience more worthwhile for the "smart" vp players by
gaining their loyalty
> through promotions, decent cashback or FPVP and keep those players
happy and in their
> seats playing VP around the clock. In turn having people playing in
a casino draws more
> people and the majority of those people will not be generally
skilled or discerning players
> who will differentiate between short-pay or full pay.
>
> To have a small yet quite vocal group of people declaring to one
and all over and over
> again that there is nothing "playable" in certain casinos must have
a harmful impact in the
> long run. Recent experience showed me that at New York New York
many banks of short
> pay VP machines remain empty for hours at a time (on a weekend
night too) . More
> particularly they used to have FP Pick'em and any time I used to
play there was always a
> couple of the machines that were occupied. Now they have the ripoff
kind and they stay
> quite empty as I noticed walking past them several times at
different times of the day.
>
> There used to be the old gambit of keeping "loose" machines near
where the majority of
> people pass by so they could see others playing and winning. By
doing so the casinos
> attracted more players than not. Why not do the same and install
more FPVP machines
> begs the question?
>
> MO
>
>
>
> >
> > <<I strongly disagree with Ms Scott assertion that all or most of
us
> > dont want share info with others after we learned. Thats why some
of
> > joined a site call VPfree in the first place.>>
> >
> > I didn't mean that all people felt that way. I am constantly
amazed and
> > thankful that so many share on these forums.
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > Jean $¢ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
> > Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
> > for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
> > of your questions!
> >
>

#17

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bedioyscans2000"
<bedioyscans2000@...> wrote:

Another question is how long it is before those players don't come
back - people only have so much money and for some if they lose it
all (playing poor paytables) it means they can't or don't come

back.

I think that your typical vp player is not a regular player. From
what I have observed, many jump around from slots (either on the
same machine as the vp or somewhere else on the floor)to machine
keno to machine bj to first one vp game to another vp game to
another vp game. In other words, they do not play enough or long
enough to approach the "long term" so that the EV/ER of the game
would have much effect. They are mainly playing the variance and
when they go home a loser, they just chalk it up as another trip to
AC or Vegas or local and do not expect to win.

It goes without saying that we all have observed them playing a
lesser paytable while a machine adjacent or across the aisle is
better, but that is of no concern to them.

So in conclusion, I don't think it is a poor paytable that causes
them to not come back, it is a depleted trip stake. They will be
back if the atmosphere is good and the comps are generous.

#18

no Jean, i was not referring to you. your book, frugal gambling was very helpful to the low roller, and would certainly not upset any casino managers. your best advise was to ask, and many times you shall receive.
   
  but what if you had written a book about how you made a million dollars playing video poker. if you were a casino manager reading this book, might you think you are being taken for a sucker? might you then start removing machines where a player might have an advantage?

···

Jean Scott <QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz> wrote:
  <<before we had vp experts advising casinos on what games would attract
people,
  we had 100+ deuces wild, jokers wild, and several bonus games. thank you
experts.>>

Just to make clear here, although you may not be referring to me
specifically. I do NOT work for casinos on technical things like game
selection and I would never "out" an advantage player to a casino. I do
occasionally speak at seminars for various casino executives. I am asked to
do this in order to give the player's side of casino practices. For
example, I talk to hosts and tell them customers like them replying to our
e-mails and returning our phone calls promptly. I talk to marketing people
about what we hate about drawings, i.e. we have to wait long periods in
crowded areas. I talk about how customers like the personal touch in a
casino, etc., etc. I talk about a lot of the gripes I read about on this
forum, i.e., long lines.

I hope that what I do will make things better for us, not worse.

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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#19

Jean Scott wrote:>">QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz> wrote:>It makes perfect sense for "expert" players like Ms $cott to educate the casinos, however I
believe it would make better sense for the casinos to actively figure out how to cater to the
expert players by keeping them in the fold.>>

Although casino executives - in Vegas particularly - are more knowledgeable about video poker and skilled players - they can read/use the same resources that we do - I am constantly surprised at how many know all about their job but little or nothing about their customers' needs and wants. Many of the seminars where I speak are full of casino executives/employees from Indian
casinos who don't have a clue yet about the "real gambling world."

···

##############################################
   
  Jean–I've often wondered about this considering the mailings and offers we get from our local Indian based casino (Ho Chunck in Wis Dells). I know you spent several days with them a year ago and it seems like they've implemented a slightly different comps strategy than they have in the past (improved strategy–that is!) and I've often wondered how much of it was your suggestion???
   
  I know you're not at liberty to divulge the contents of your meetings but I've often shook my head in dis-belief as to the amazing amount of lack of information on the part of these types of casinos! How in the world can you run a hundred's of millions of dollar operation and NOT have a clue as to how the "competition" does things??? It's totally mind blowing to me!!! I guess that maybe part of it (and I'm hoping I'm right here–for their sakes) is that they've grown so fast that they couldn't keep up–soon they found themselves at a "Las Vegas casino type stage" and didn't have a clue as to how to proceed from there! I do applaud them for seeing their real situation and seeking knowledge to proceed but it still blows my mind! Just like it blows my mind when some casinos don't realize that their patrons want to be treated "special". . . .don't we all???

Jean H--
   
  You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes.
You can steer yourself any direction you choose.
You're on your own. And you know what you know.
  And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go.... Dr. Suess

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#20

<<Jean--I've often wondered about this considering the mailings and offers we get from our local Indian based casino (Ho Chunck in Wis Dells). I know you spent several days with them a year ago and it seems like they've implemented a slightly different comps strategy than they have in the past (improved strategy--that is!) and I've often wondered how much of it was your suggestion???>>

I always hope some of my suggestions will be acted upon!!!!! But it's hard to tell sometimes. I do most of my speaking engagements in connection with the Raving consulting company. The people at Raving are very good in helping casinos give better customer service. So it's a total seminar effort of which I am just a small part.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!