All this talk about cheating reminds me of an episode on 60 Minutes a
few years ago. What the show tried to find out was: Do the slot
builders deliberately create "near misses" to make the player think
he/she almost had a big win? As I recall, they interviewed a casino
executive (or game builder?) but he refused to say whether they did
that. Assuming they do, is that cheating? I really don't think it
is ... it just makes the game more fun to play. I played a VP game
that seemed to play this way ... you kept getting chances to make a
RF ... but of course it never happens, or rarely. Is that cheating
if the game is not called video poker? I think it is because
it "appears" to be a regular RF game, although it isn't.
Cheating
It did come out that the slot machine maker's did make the "near misses" on the reel machine's to make it look like you just missed a jackpot.
Sometime's I would swear the video poker machine's are also programmed to tease you. Like you hold three aces in clubs, spades and diamonds, and the 4 of hearts show's up, making you think for a second that you got 4 of a kind. But I read that at least in New Jersey and Nevada, the video poker machine's really are random.
Remember, if you get 4 cards to a royal flush, you only pull the fifth card once every 47 try's. (52 cards in the deck, minus 5 dealt first = 47 left in the deck. Only one make's the royal.)
Ned C.
The Wild Joker
···
brumar_lv <brumar_lv@yahoo.com> wrote:
All this talk about cheating reminds me of an episode on 60 Minutes a
few years ago. What the show tried to find out was: Do the slot
builders deliberately create "near misses" to make the player think
he/she almost had a big win? As I recall, they interviewed a casino
executive (or game builder?) but he refused to say whether they did
that. Assuming they do, is that cheating? I really don't think it
is ... it just makes the game more fun to play. I played a VP game
that seemed to play this way ... you kept getting chances to make a
RF ... but of course it never happens, or rarely. Is that cheating
if the game is not called video poker? I think it is because
it "appears" to be a regular RF game, although it isn't.
vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm
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It is my understanding that programming near misses in slot or vp machines is against Nevada Gaming Regs. Some interesting reading: http://www.americancasinoguide.com/Tips/Slots-Honest.shtml
···
At 12:15 AM 1/17/2004, you wrote:
All this talk about cheating reminds me of an episode on 60 Minutes a
few years ago. What the show tried to find out was: Do the slot
builders deliberately create "near misses" to make the player think
he/she almost had a big win? As I recall, they interviewed a casino
executive (or game builder?) but he refused to say whether they did
that. Assuming they do, is that cheating?
I remember reading that programming slot machines to show a lot of
near misses is not permitted in Nevada, and since Nevada regulations
require that manufacturers whose machines are approved for use in
Nevada must not even manufacture machines that do not meet Nevada
regulations, not even for use elsewhere in the country, it's a pretty
good bet that you won't find such teasing on machines anywhere in the
USA. However, when I was in Monte Carlo in 1990, the slots there
WERE programmed to show a lot of near misses. Those 7s would be
above or below the payline just about every other spin.
All this talk about cheating reminds me of an episode on 60 Minutes
a
few years ago. What the show tried to find out was: Do the slot
builders deliberately create "near misses" to make the player think
he/she almost had a big win? As I recall, they interviewed a
casino
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:
executive (or game builder?) but he refused to say whether they did
that. Assuming they do, is that cheating? I really don't think it
is ... it just makes the game more fun to play. I played a VP game
that seemed to play this way ... you kept getting chances to make a
RF ... but of course it never happens, or rarely. Is that cheating
if the game is not called video poker? I think it is because
it "appears" to be a regular RF game, although it isn't.
excellent article cited below, here is an excerpt that might entice
some more people to check it out:
"I knew that American Coin was the company that Frank Romano had been
associated with and that it was involved in the biggest cheating
scandal in Nevada gaming history. In July 1989 the Nevada Gaming
Control Board seized about 1,000 of the company's gaming machines
in
93 southern Nevada locations (mostly bars and taverns) after it
discovered that they contained unapproved computer chips. The
company's video poker machines had been altered to avoid giving a
royal flush and their keno machines had also been programmed to avoid
giving out the top jackpots.
Eventually, the company surrendered its license and paid $1 million
in fines. Authorities also pursued a criminal case against the
company but were later forced to drop those proceedings when their
star witness Larry Volk, the American Coin programmer who said he had
been ordered to program the rigged chips, was shot in the back of the
head and killed outside his Las Vegas mobile home in October 1990. A
suspect was later arrested and tried in the case but a jury
didn't
convict him.
Romano, who was a one-third partner in the company along with his
brother-in-law and father-in-law, claimed he never knew of the
cheating scheme. In a later bankruptcy proceeding against his
partners a federal judge agreed with Romano's claim of innocence
and
ruled in his favor."
>All this talk about cheating reminds me of an episode on 60
Minutes a
>few years ago. What the show tried to find out was: Do the slot
>builders deliberately create "near misses" to make the player think
>he/she almost had a big win? As I recall, they interviewed a
casino
>executive (or game builder?) but he refused to say whether they did
>that. Assuming they do, is that cheating?It is my understanding that programming near misses in slot or vp
machines
is against Nevada Gaming Regs. Some interesting reading:
http://www.americancasinoguide.com/Tips/Slots-Honest.shtml
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Chandler <omnibibulous1@c...> wrote:
At 12:15 AM 1/17/2004, you wrote:
w, no that's a current problem being tackled. Not that misses are
programmed in the RNG, but that too frequent "Barely Missed" are
programmed to appear. Very similar to how easy the pea appears to
detect in a street shell game; or the 3rd crimped card is to detect
til ya place the bet. All in Da Game, so perhaps pappy is right.
100% cheat.Matter of outlook. CD
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "wishiwuzinvegas" <pelotari1672@y...>
wrote:
I remember reading that programming slot machines to show a lot of
near misses is not permitted in Nevada, and since Nevada
regulations
require that manufacturers whose machines are approved for use in
Nevada must not even manufacture machines that do not meet Nevada
regulations, not even for use elsewhere in the country, it's a
pretty
good bet that you won't find such teasing on machines anywhere in
the
USA. However, when I was in Monte Carlo in 1990, the slots there
WERE programmed to show a lot of near misses. Those 7s would be
above or below the payline just about every other spin.> All this talk about cheating reminds me of an episode on 60
Minutes
a
> few years ago. What the show tried to find out was: Do the
slot
> builders deliberately create "near misses" to make the player
think
> he/she almost had a big win? As I recall, they interviewed a
casino
> executive (or game builder?) but he refused to say whether they
did
> that. Assuming they do, is that cheating? I really don't think
it
> is ... it just makes the game more fun to play. I played a VP
game
> that seemed to play this way ... you kept getting chances to
make a
> RF ... but of course it never happens, or rarely. Is that
cheating
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:
> if the game is not called video poker? I think it is because
> it "appears" to be a regular RF game, although it isn't.
Hi. Since slot machine results are not random anyway, what difference
would it make if all the misses were "near" misses. ??
wishiwuzinvegas wrote:
I remember reading that programming slot machines to show a lot of
near misses is not permitted in Nevada, and since Nevada regulations
require that manufacturers whose machines are approved for use in
Nevada must not even manufacture machines that do not meet Nevada
regulations, not even for use elsewhere in the country, it's a pretty
good bet that you won't find such teasing on machines anywhere in the
USA. However, when I was in Monte Carlo in 1990, the slots there
WERE programmed to show a lot of near misses. Those 7s would be
above or below the payline just about every other spin.> All this talk about cheating reminds me of an episode on 60 Minutes
a
> few years ago. What the show tried to find out was: Do the slot
> builders deliberately create "near misses" to make the player think
> he/she almost had a big win? As I recall, they interviewed a
casino
> executive (or game builder?) but he refused to say whether they did
> that. Assuming they do, is that cheating? I really don't think it
> is ... it just makes the game more fun to play. I played a VP game
> that seemed to play this way ... you kept getting chances to make a
> RF ... but of course it never happens, or rarely. Is that cheating
> if the game is not called video poker? I think it is because
> it "appears" to be a regular RF game, although it isn't.vpFREE Links:
http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm---------------------------------------------------------------
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Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:
Hi. This article doesn't seem to differentiate between slot machines and
V.P. machines. Aren't we all in agreement that Nevada V.P. machines are
truly random and slot machines never are? Dick Mck.
Chandler wrote:
···
At 12:15 AM 1/17/2004, you wrote:
>All this talk about cheating reminds me of an episode on 60 Minutes a>few years ago. What the show tried to find out was: Do the slot
>builders deliberately create "near misses" to make the player think
>he/she almost had a big win? As I recall, they interviewed a casino
>executive (or game builder?) but he refused to say whether they did
>that. Assuming they do, is that cheating?It is my understanding that programming near misses in slot or vp
machines
is against Nevada Gaming Regs. Some interesting reading:
http://www.americancasinoguide.com/Tips/Slots-Honest.shtmlvpFREE Links:
http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm---------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links* To visit your group on the web, go to:
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Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This post is amazing!Pssst... Rich, don't tell Nevada, golly, they'd
be pisst ta know about that button installed Dec. '46. Ben Segal was
killed when would not disclose the location ('hind the pic) Now it
just keeps goin on each Tue @ 2 AM and mob's never been able to
touch it. Reason Howard H could buy is he's the only guy coulda
afforded the weekend losses. Is in that underground fortress
accessable only by parachute at Bellagio ( or fake fortress across
the street known only to movie goers). CD
Hi. Since slot machine results are not random anyway, what
difference
would it make if all the misses were "near" misses. ??
wishiwuzinvegas wrote:
> I remember reading that programming slot machines to show a lot
of
> near misses is not permitted in Nevada, and since Nevada
regulations
> require that manufacturers whose machines are approved for use in
> Nevada must not even manufacture machines that do not meet Nevada
> regulations, not even for use elsewhere in the country, it's a
pretty
> good bet that you won't find such teasing on machines anywhere
in the
> USA. However, when I was in Monte Carlo in 1990, the slots there
> WERE programmed to show a lot of near misses. Those 7s would be
> above or below the payline just about every other spin.
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...>
wrote:
> > All this talk about cheating reminds me of an episode on 60
Minutes
> a
> > few years ago. What the show tried to find out was: Do the
slot
> > builders deliberately create "near misses" to make the player
think
> > he/she almost had a big win? As I recall, they interviewed a
> casino
> > executive (or game builder?) but he refused to say whether
they did
> > that. Assuming they do, is that cheating? I really don't
think it
> > is ... it just makes the game more fun to play. I played a VP
game
> > that seemed to play this way ... you kept getting chances to
make a
> > RF ... but of course it never happens, or rarely. Is that
cheating
···
-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Richard Mckenna <tmac2@l...> wrote:
> > if the game is not called video poker? I think it is because
> > it "appears" to be a regular RF game, although it isn't.
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links:
> http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
--
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Will some kind soul in this group interpret d.c.'s response. Thanks,
Dick.
crazydonconcepts wrote:
This post is amazing!Pssst... Rich, don't tell Nevada, golly, they'd
be pisst ta know about that button installed Dec. '46. Ben Segal was
killed when would not disclose the location ('hind the pic) Now it
just keeps goin on each Tue @ 2 AM and mob's never been able to
touch it. Reason Howard H could buy is he's the only guy coulda
afforded the weekend losses. Is in that underground fortress
accessable only by parachute at Bellagio ( or fake fortress across
the street known only to movie goers). CD> Hi. Since slot machine results are not random anyway, what
difference
> would it make if all the misses were "near" misses. ??
>
> wishiwuzinvegas wrote:
>
> > I remember reading that programming slot machines to show a lot
of
> > near misses is not permitted in Nevada, and since Nevada
regulations
> > require that manufacturers whose machines are approved for use in
> > Nevada must not even manufacture machines that do not meet Nevada
> > regulations, not even for use elsewhere in the country, it's a
pretty
> > good bet that you won't find such teasing on machines anywhere
in the
> > USA. However, when I was in Monte Carlo in 1990, the slots there
> > WERE programmed to show a lot of near misses. Those 7s would be
> > above or below the payline just about every other spin.
> >
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...>
wrote:
> > > All this talk about cheating reminds me of an episode on 60
Minutes
> > a
> > > few years ago. What the show tried to find out was: Do the
slot
> > > builders deliberately create "near misses" to make the player
think
> > > he/she almost had a big win? As I recall, they interviewed a
> > casino
> > > executive (or game builder?) but he refused to say whether
they did
> > > that. Assuming they do, is that cheating? I really don't
think it
> > > is ... it just makes the game more fun to play. I played a VP
game
> > > that seemed to play this way ... you kept getting chances to
make a
> > > RF ... but of course it never happens, or rarely. Is that
cheating
> > > if the game is not called video poker? I think it is because
> > > it "appears" to be a regular RF game, although it isn't.
> >
> >
> >
> > vpFREE Links:
> > http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
--
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]vpFREE Links:
http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm---------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links* To visit your group on the web, go to:
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Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
···
-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Richard Mckenna <tmac2@l...> wrote:
Slot machines ARE random, they're just set to a pre-defined payback
that you can't decipher by looking at the machine. The actual payback
of the machines will be the same as the pre-defined payback.
VP machines are random and you can decipher the payback by looking at
the paytable. The actual payback of the machines is determine by the
skill level of those playing in combination with the paytable.
As for "near misses", I thought IGT actually has a patent on them.
Dick
Hi. Since slot machine results are not random anyway, what
difference
would it make if all the misses were "near" misses. ??
wishiwuzinvegas wrote:
> I remember reading that programming slot machines to show a lot
of
> near misses is not permitted in Nevada, and since Nevada
regulations
> require that manufacturers whose machines are approved for use in
> Nevada must not even manufacture machines that do not meet Nevada
> regulations, not even for use elsewhere in the country, it's a
pretty
> good bet that you won't find such teasing on machines anywhere in
the
> USA. However, when I was in Monte Carlo in 1990, the slots there
> WERE programmed to show a lot of near misses. Those 7s would be
> above or below the payline just about every other spin.
>
>
> > All this talk about cheating reminds me of an episode on 60
Minutes
> a
> > few years ago. What the show tried to find out was: Do the
slot
> > builders deliberately create "near misses" to make the player
think
> > he/she almost had a big win? As I recall, they interviewed a
> casino
> > executive (or game builder?) but he refused to say whether they
did
> > that. Assuming they do, is that cheating? I really don't
think it
> > is ... it just makes the game more fun to play. I played a VP
game
> > that seemed to play this way ... you kept getting chances to
make a
> > RF ... but of course it never happens, or rarely. Is that
cheating
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Richard Mckenna <tmac2@l...> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:
> > if the game is not called video poker? I think it is because
> > it "appears" to be a regular RF game, although it isn't.
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links:
> http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
-
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The scary yet funny thing about Don's ramblings:
WHAT IF he is "scrambling" them so that just we video poker enthusiasts can
understand them (or understand them JUST enough), but THEY, THEM, THE
BAD GUYS can't understand them. Crazy Don may not be crazy - he knows
what happens to whistle-blowers in Nevada - kaput!
For this particular post of Don's, here's what I got out of it:
~there's a secret button on the machines. the casino pushes the button to
fleece the weekend tourists.
~ Howard Hughes Knew where the button was, that's why he never lost his
fortune in Las Vegas.
~<something undetermined> is in the underground fortress below the
Bellagio. then there is a reference to the movie "Casino".
Typical CrazyDon babble that is peppered with factoids - please do not try to
decipher or squash Don's blathering - it is a refreshing insight into the mind of
a crazed genius - one step over the line - as step that any of us might take at
any given moment -
Bwahahahhaha
~Mark P
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Richard Mckenna <tmac2@l...> wrote:
Will some kind soul in this group interpret d.c.'s response. Thanks,
Dick.crazydonconcepts wrote:
> This post is amazing!Pssst... Rich, don't tell Nevada, golly, they'd
> be pisst ta know about that button installed Dec. '46. Ben Segal was
> killed when would not disclose the location ('hind the pic) Now it
> just keeps goin on each Tue @ 2 AM and mob's never been able to
> touch it. Reason Howard H could buy is he's the only guy coulda
> afforded the weekend losses. Is in that underground fortress
> accessable only by parachute at Bellagio ( or fake fortress across
> the street known only to movie goers). CD
>
I think he said that he wants to marry your daughter, and he's asking what dowry you're offering. 
... and all this time I just thought it was just me. The problem I have with CD's posts is that they are often either completely above my head (I assume that he is a genius, I'm an idiot, or some combination of the two), or I don't have the time to try to decipher them. Often I can make sense of them ... such as the recent dialogue that we've been having in another thread ... and sometimes I can't, in which instances I just move on (I'm not about to start telling people how to write). Anyway, what is the dowry?
Cheers.
Bill Velek
Richard Mckenna wrote:
Will some kind soul in this group interpret d.c.'s response. Thanks,
Dick.crazydonconcepts wrote:
> This post is amazing!Pssst... Rich, don't tell Nevada, golly, they'd
> be pisst ta know about that button installed Dec. '46. Ben Segal was
> killed when would not disclose the location ('hind the pic) Now it
> just keeps goin on each Tue @ 2 AM and mob's never been able to
> touch it. Reason Howard H could buy is he's the only guy coulda
> afforded the weekend losses. Is in that underground fortress
> accessable only by parachute at Bellagio ( or fake fortress across
> the street known only to movie goers). CD
snip
Bill, marriage $s are in that fort [possibly unguarded off- strip
warehouse too, only George Cloony and Jimmy Caan (Vegas.. TV, close,
but no cigar... less talkin 1st G'father an he died) know fer sure].
Seriously folks gaming is SUPPOSED ta be fun, Chill! CD
I think he said that he wants to marry your daughter, and he's
asking
what dowry you're offering.
... and all this time I just thought it was just me. The problem
I have
with CD's posts is that they are often either completely above my
head
(I assume that he is a genius, I'm an idiot, or some combination
of the
two), or I don't have the time to try to decipher them. Often I
can
make sense of them ... such as the recent dialogue that we've been
having in another thread ... and sometimes I can't, in which
instances I
just move on (I'm not about to start telling people how to
write).
Anyway, what is the dowry?
Cheers.
Bill Velek
Richard Mckenna wrote:
> Will some kind soul in this group interpret d.c.'s response.
Thanks,
> Dick.
>
> crazydonconcepts wrote:
>
> > This post is amazing!Pssst... Rich, don't tell Nevada, golly,
they'd
> > be pisst ta know about that button installed Dec. '46. Ben
Segal was
> > killed when would not disclose the location ('hind the pic)
Now it
> > just keeps goin on each Tue @ 2 AM and mob's never been able
to
> > touch it. Reason Howard H could buy is he's the only guy coulda
> > afforded the weekend losses. Is in that underground fortress
> > accessable only by parachute at Bellagio ( or fake fortress
across
···
In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:
> > the street known only to movie goers). CD
snip
I think it is possible to have a statistically honest game in VP and still use the psychology of near misses, although I've not sure whether that would be in vilation of any laws or not (depends upon the wording of the laws).
For instance, let's say that you hold a single Hi-card in JoB -- a Ks -- and the machine/program _RANDOMLY_ determines at the time of your draw that you have hit a Flush -- but not a Royal Flush. Let's say that you the _random_ draw would give you a KJ732s. As long as the machine still pays you for the flush -- which is what you have accurately won according to a random draw -- what difference does it make if it displays a KQJT3s? I could easily draft a law that would permit that while, at the same time, still preserve randomness ... at least insofar as winning hands vs. losing hands is concerned. Admittedly, you would end with a disproportinate number of 4-Royals as the end result, but no one would be cheated out of any wins.
Cheers.
Bill Velek
Resulting in RNG gets 1 billionth nanosecond rest? Why? Shut up an
deal! CD-
I think it is possible to have a statistically honest game in VP
and
still use the psychology of near misses, although I've not sure
whether
that would be in vilation of any laws or not (depends upon the
wording
of the laws).
For instance, let's say that you hold a single Hi-card in JoB -- a
Ks --
and the machine/program _RANDOMLY_ determines at the time of your
draw
that you have hit a Flush -- but not a Royal Flush. Let's say
that you
the _random_ draw would give you a KJ732s. As long as the machine
still
pays you for the flush -- which is what you have accurately won
according to a random draw -- what difference does it make if it
displays a KQJT3s? I could easily draft a law that would permit
that
while, at the same time, still preserve randomness ... at least
insofar
as winning hands vs. losing hands is concerned. Admittedly, you
would
end with a disproportinate number of 4-Royals as the end result,
but no
···
-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:
one would be cheated out of any wins.
Cheers.
Bill Velek
You're a damned slave-driver, CD. Why wouldn't you want the poor ol' RNG to get a tiny bit of rest?
Bill
crazydonconcepts wrote:
Resulting in RNG gets 1 billionth nanosecond rest? Why? Shut up an
deal! CD-
snip
Slot machines ARE random, they're just set to a pre-defined payback
that you can't decipher by looking at the machine. The actual payback
of the machines will be the same as the pre-defined payback.
VP machines are random and you can decipher the payback by looking at
the paytable. The actual payback of the machines is determine by the
skill level of those playing in combination with the paytable.
Dick<<
This agrees with my understanding of how it works. Both slots and VP
are random, but the random numbers are "mapped" differently. For VP
the "mapping" ensures each card has an equal chance of being picked.
For slots exactly the opposite is true. Some slot "symbols" (the
equilivant of cards) are much more likely to be picked than others.
These are the "no pay" symbols or "minor pay" symbols. What the 60-
Minutes people were investigating was whether the game builders
purposely put the "no pay" symbols right next to the "jackpot"
symbols, so there would appear to be a large number of near misses.
Of course they do that ... why wouldn't they? Why group
the "jackpot" symbols next to other "jackpot" symbols and the losing
symbols next to other losing symbols? If they did that players would
rarely get anything, not even near misses. That would be a very dull
game. So they make the game more interesting to play, with no change
in the long term payback, by arranging the symbols on the
spinning "wheel" so there will be a lot of near misses.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...> wrote:
You said that a hell of a lot better than I did. D. McK.
brumar_lv wrote:
Slot machines ARE random, they're just set to a pre-defined payback
that you can't decipher by looking at the machine. The actual payback
of the machines will be the same as the pre-defined payback.
VP machines are random and you can decipher the payback by looking at
the paytable. The actual payback of the machines is determine by the
skill level of those playing in combination with the paytable.
Dick<<This agrees with my understanding of how it works. Both slots and VP
are random, but the random numbers are "mapped" differently. For VP
the "mapping" ensures each card has an equal chance of being picked.
For slots exactly the opposite is true. Some slot "symbols" (the
equilivant of cards) are much more likely to be picked than others.
These are the "no pay" symbols or "minor pay" symbols. What the 60-
Minutes people were investigating was whether the game builders
purposely put the "no pay" symbols right next to the "jackpot"
symbols, so there would appear to be a large number of near misses.
Of course they do that ... why wouldn't they? Why group
the "jackpot" symbols next to other "jackpot" symbols and the losing
symbols next to other losing symbols? If they did that players would
rarely get anything, not even near misses. That would be a very dull
game. So they make the game more interesting to play, with no change
in the long term payback, by arranging the symbols on the
spinning "wheel" so there will be a lot of near misses.vpFREE Links:
http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htmYahoo! Groups Sponsor
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···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...> wrote:
To clarify, reel slots are set up where each reel usually has 22 physical
positions (stops). When the slots were mechanical, the only way to offer
large jackpots were to have 5 or even 7 reels. However, it was obvious to
even the most clueless person that with that many reels their chances were
small.
Then, with computers running the show they could make virtual stops. Let's
say they give each reel 100 virtual stops. Each number between 1 and 100 is
mapped to one of 22 physical positions on the reels. 11 of those physical
positions have symbols, 11 are blank. The jackpot symbol would likely get 1
number assigned. The least valuable symbol might get four or five numbers.
The blank spots will have the most. Let's say the math tells us to assign
55 numbers to blanks. We could (and I think in Nevada we must) assign them
equally to the 11 blanks. If we wanted to entice the players, we might
assign 15 numbers each to the blanks on either side of the jackpot symbols
and spread the remainder equally among the other 9. The RNG would tell each
reel to stop next to a jackpot symbol fairly often. This would give most
slot players (who are ignorant of how the machines work) the impression
that they are just missing the top jackpot and might keep playing longer
than they intended. The actual return of the machine would not be affected
but the psychology of the machine would be. That's why it is not allowed to
happen.
However, the psychology of players comes into effect. Even if the numbers
are evenly assigned, close calls will still happen frequently enough (and
probability theory tells us they will sometimes come in bunches) that we
will perceive them happening more frequently than they do. Just like in VP
where sometimes we draw one card and get the same rank back. We remember
these and think they happen more often than they really do.
···
At 05:33 PM 01/17/2004, you wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...> wrote:
Slot machines ARE random, they're just set to a pre-defined payback
that you can't decipher by looking at the machine. The actual payback
of the machines will be the same as the pre-defined payback.
VP machines are random and you can decipher the payback by looking at
the paytable. The actual payback of the machines is determine by the
skill level of those playing in combination with the paytable.
Dick<<This agrees with my understanding of how it works. Both slots and VP
are random, but the random numbers are "mapped" differently. For VP
the "mapping" ensures each card has an equal chance of being picked.
For slots exactly the opposite is true. Some slot "symbols" (the
equilivant of cards) are much more likely to be picked than others.
These are the "no pay" symbols or "minor pay" symbols. What the 60-
Minutes people were investigating was whether the game builders
purposely put the "no pay" symbols right next to the "jackpot"
symbols, so there would appear to be a large number of near misses.
Of course they do that ... why wouldn't they? Why group
the "jackpot" symbols next to other "jackpot" symbols and the losing
symbols next to other losing symbols? If they did that players would
rarely get anything, not even near misses. That would be a very dull
game. So they make the game more interesting to play, with no change
in the long term payback, by arranging the symbols on the
spinning "wheel" so there will be a lot of near misses.vpFREE Links:
<http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm>http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htmYahoo! Groups Sponsor
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