vpFREE2 Forums

Cheating

Bill. Would you consider the system you described below as being
Random? D McK.

Bill Coleman wrote:

To clarify, reel slots are set up where each reel usually has 22
physical
positions (stops). When the slots were mechanical, the only way to
offer
large jackpots were to have 5 or even 7 reels. However, it was obvious
to
even the most clueless person that with that many reels their chances
were
small.

Then, with computers running the show they could make virtual stops.
Let's
say they give each reel 100 virtual stops. Each number between 1 and
100 is
mapped to one of 22 physical positions on the reels. 11 of those
physical
positions have symbols, 11 are blank. The jackpot symbol would likely
get 1
number assigned. The least valuable symbol might get four or five
numbers.
The blank spots will have the most. Let's say the math tells us to
assign
55 numbers to blanks. We could (and I think in Nevada we must) assign
them
equally to the 11 blanks. If we wanted to entice the players, we might

assign 15 numbers each to the blanks on either side of the jackpot
symbols
and spread the remainder equally among the other 9. The RNG would tell
each
reel to stop next to a jackpot symbol fairly often. This would give
most
slot players (who are ignorant of how the machines work) the
impression
that they are just missing the top jackpot and might keep playing
longer
than they intended. The actual return of the machine would not be
affected
but the psychology of the machine would be. That's why it is not
allowed to
happen.

However, the psychology of players comes into effect. Even if the
numbers
are evenly assigned, close calls will still happen frequently enough
(and
probability theory tells us they will sometimes come in bunches) that
we
will perceive them happening more frequently than they do. Just like
in VP
where sometimes we draw one card and get the same rank back. We
remember
these and think they happen more often than they really do.

>Slot machines ARE random, they're just set to a pre-defined payback
>that you can't decipher by looking at the machine. The actual payback

>of the machines will be the same as the pre-defined payback.
>VP machines are random and you can decipher the payback by looking at

>the paytable. The actual payback of the machines is determine by the
>skill level of those playing in combination with the paytable.
>Dick<<
>
>This agrees with my understanding of how it works. Both slots and VP

>are random, but the random numbers are "mapped" differently. For VP
>the "mapping" ensures each card has an equal chance of being picked.
>For slots exactly the opposite is true. Some slot "symbols" (the
>equilivant of cards) are much more likely to be picked than others.
>These are the "no pay" symbols or "minor pay" symbols. What the 60-
>Minutes people were investigating was whether the game builders
>purposely put the "no pay" symbols right next to the "jackpot"
>symbols, so there would appear to be a large number of near misses.
>Of course they do that ... why wouldn't they? Why group
>the "jackpot" symbols next to other "jackpot" symbols and the losing
>symbols next to other losing symbols? If they did that players would

>rarely get anything, not even near misses. That would be a very dull

>game. So they make the game more interesting to play, with no change

>in the long term payback, by arranging the symbols on the
>spinning "wheel" so there will be a lot of near misses.
>
>
>
>
>vpFREE Links:

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···

At 05:33 PM 01/17/2004, you wrote:
>--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...> wrote:

<<That's why it is not allowed to happen.>>

Thanks for the clarification. I did not realize that designing games
so there are a lot of "near misses" (by placing losing symbols
adjacent to the jackpot symbols) is a violation of the Nevada Gaming
Control Board rules. I wonder if they made this rule following the
60 Minutes investigation? How do they decide on the symbol
placement?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:

I would. It is important to distinguish between the concepts of "random"
and "evenly distributed". The fact that the stops are not evenly
distributed does not mean that they are not random.

···

On Sunday 18 January 2004 05:14 pm, Richard Mckenna wrote:

Bill. Would you consider the system you described below as being
Random? D McK.

Bill Coleman wrote:
> To clarify, reel slots are set up where each reel usually has 22
> physical
> positions (stops). When the slots were mechanical, the only way to
> offer
> large jackpots were to have 5 or even 7 reels. However, it was obvious
> to
> even the most clueless person that with that many reels their chances
> were
> small.
>
> Then, with computers running the show they could make virtual stops.
> Let's
> say they give each reel 100 virtual stops. Each number between 1 and
> 100 is
> mapped to one of 22 physical positions on the reels. 11 of those
> physical
> positions have symbols, 11 are blank. The jackpot symbol would likely
> get 1
> number assigned. The least valuable symbol might get four or five
> numbers.
> The blank spots will have the most. Let's say the math tells us to
> assign
> 55 numbers to blanks. We could (and I think in Nevada we must) assign
> them
> equally to the 11 blanks. If we wanted to entice the players, we might
>
> assign 15 numbers each to the blanks on either side of the jackpot
> symbols
> and spread the remainder equally among the other 9. The RNG would tell
> each
> reel to stop next to a jackpot symbol fairly often. This would give
> most
> slot players (who are ignorant of how the machines work) the
> impression
> that they are just missing the top jackpot and might keep playing
> longer
> than they intended. The actual return of the machine would not be
> affected
> but the psychology of the machine would be. That's why it is not
> allowed to
> happen.
>
> However, the psychology of players comes into effect. Even if the
> numbers
> are evenly assigned, close calls will still happen frequently enough
> (and
> probability theory tells us they will sometimes come in bunches) that
> we
> will perceive them happening more frequently than they do. Just like
> in VP
> where sometimes we draw one card and get the same rank back. We
> remember
> these and think they happen more often than they really do.
>
> At 05:33 PM 01/17/2004, you wrote:
> >— In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a…> wrote:
> >Slot machines ARE random, they're just set to a pre-defined payback
> >that you can't decipher by looking at the machine. The actual payback
> >
> >of the machines will be the same as the pre-defined payback.
> >VP machines are random and you can decipher the payback by looking at
> >
> >the paytable. The actual payback of the machines is determine by the
> >skill level of those playing in combination with the paytable.
> >Dick<<
> >
> >This agrees with my understanding of how it works. Both slots and VP
> >
> >are random, but the random numbers are "mapped" differently. For VP
> >the "mapping" ensures each card has an equal chance of being picked.
> >For slots exactly the opposite is true. Some slot "symbols" (the
> >equilivant of cards) are much more likely to be picked than others.
> >These are the "no pay" symbols or "minor pay" symbols. What the 60-
> >Minutes people were investigating was whether the game builders
> >purposely put the "no pay" symbols right next to the "jackpot"
> >symbols, so there would appear to be a large number of near misses.
> >Of course they do that … why wouldn't they? Why group
> >the "jackpot" symbols next to other "jackpot" symbols and the losing
> >symbols next to other losing symbols? If they did that players would
> >
> >rarely get anything, not even near misses. That would be a very dull
> >
> >game. So they make the game more interesting to play, with no change
> >
> >in the long term payback, by arranging the symbols on the
> >spinning "wheel" so there will be a lot of near misses.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >vpFREE Links:
>
> <http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm>http://www.w
>est-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >ADVERTISEMENT
>
> <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12c6houn5/M=267637.4116730.5333196.1261774/D=egr
>oupweb/S=1705065732:HM/EXP=1074475995/A=1945637/R=0/*http://www.netflix.co
>m/Default?mqso=60178397&partid=4116730>
>
> >click here
> >
> >[]
> >
> >
> >
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>
>
>
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>
>
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Absolutely. There is no way to predict which 3 numbers the RNG will select
on any given spin. If they had the space, each reel would have 100 stops
(in my example) then would you question the randomness? The number of
blanks and jackpot symbols would be exactly the same. Practically, they
can't make a machine with that big a reel. The virtual stops make it
possible to have a machine that performs like the gargantuan machine with
100 physical stops.

Remember, the reels (or video screen) is just for show. When the RNG
selects a set of numbers that map to physical reels, electronic reels or
virtual playing cards the outcome is set. How that outcome is displayed to
the player has nothing to do with the randomness of the decision.

B

···

At 04:14 PM 01/18/2004, you wrote:

Bill. Would you consider the system you described below as being
Random? D McK.

Bill Coleman wrote:

> To clarify, reel slots are set up where each reel usually has 22
> physical
> positions (stops). When the slots were mechanical, the only way to
> offer
> large jackpots were to have 5 or even 7 reels. However, it was obvious
> to
> even the most clueless person that with that many reels their chances
> were
> small.
>
> Then, with computers running the show they could make virtual stops.
> Let's
> say they give each reel 100 virtual stops. Each number between 1 and
> 100 is
> mapped to one of 22 physical positions on the reels. 11 of those
> physical

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The actual regulations are interesting. Whereas Regulation 14 specifically
says that the outcome cannot be changed to make it more interesting (i.e.
close calls on reels or near misses on VP) nothing in the regulations
specifically addresses virtual stops on reel slots. The requirement that
they not be programmed for an excess of near misses falls under Regulation
5.011.10:
"Failure to conduct gaming operations in accordance with proper standards
of custom,
decorum and decency, or permit any type of conduct in the gaming
establishment which reflects
or tends to reflect on the repute of the State of Nevada and act as a
detriment to the gaming
industry."

Personally, I really like this since it basically says that gaming
operators must play fair and therefore the suppliers of equipment must play
fair, too.

B

···

At 11:31 PM 01/18/2004, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:

<<That's why it is not allowed to happen.>>

Thanks for the clarification. I did not realize that designing games
so there are a lot of "near misses" (by placing losing symbols
adjacent to the jackpot symbols) is a violation of the Nevada Gaming
Control Board rules. I wonder if they made this rule following the
60 Minutes investigation? How do they decide on the symbol
placement?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The actual regulations are interesting. Whereas Regulation 14

specifically

says that the outcome cannot be changed to make it more

interesting<<

Thanks for the info. This may be a bit far fetched, but in a way the
Station Casinos "Jumbo Jackpot" promotion could be viewed as a
violation of Reg. 14. They randomly pick huge winners simply because
they are sitting in front of a slot with their players card
inserted. Isn't this "changing the outcome to make it more
interesting"? In other words, you can do nothing but lose lose lose
and still end up a huge winner. That makes playing a LOT more
interesting, and it certainly changes the outcome.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote: