OK, I"m not a nut. Ive been playing at the Borgata in AC for a few days. I've been hearing about this weird phenomenon on this board and now I've seen it. I hit draw and a card that I've discarded doesn't change. It flickers for a moment and than returns. The draw is finished and I'm stuck with the same card. It doesn't just happen on one card draws, it happen when drawing three or more. One card comes up the same. I'm interested if anyone else has observed this. Please, no boiler plate replies about how my mind is playing tricks. This is real.
Cards not changing
It has happened to me every time I played at Borgata in the past, although I
haven't played there recently. I,also, thought my eyes were playing "tricks" on
me but once I was aware of this happening I watched it very carefully and
verified that it was a common occurrence.
Vet
···
________________________________
From: thebat_1 <thebat@snet.net>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 10:19:14 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Cards not changing
OK, I"m not a nut. Ive been playing at the Borgata in AC for a few days. I've
been hearing about this weird phenomenon on this board and now I've seen it. I
hit draw and a card that I've discarded doesn't change. It flickers for a
moment and than returns. The draw is finished and I'm stuck with the same card.
It doesn't just happen on one card draws, it happen when drawing three or more.
One card comes up the same. I'm interested if anyone else has observed this.
Please, no boiler plate replies about how my mind is playing tricks. This is
real.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You can call for a slot tech who can verify the previous five starting and final hands (On multi-line games that is every played line of those previous five deals.) on all major VP products as it is required by law. (I believe it is ten hands on IGT products.)
If the draw button sticks, activating before my hold, I have asked for an adjudication on a few occasions.
It is possible to have a sticky button cause a card to hold even if you never pushed that button. I have seen that happen.
···
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of vet
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:15 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Cards not changing
It has happened to me every time I played at Borgata in the past, although I
haven't played there recently. I,also, thought my eyes were playing "tricks" on
me but once I was aware of this happening I watched it very carefully and
verified that it was a common occurrence.
Vet
________________________________
From: thebat_1 <thebat@snet.net <mailto:thebat%40snet.net> >
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 10:19:14 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Cards not changing
OK, I"m not a nut. Ive been playing at the Borgata in AC for a few days. I've
been hearing about this weird phenomenon on this board and now I've seen it. I
hit draw and a card that I've discarded doesn't change. It flickers for a
moment and than returns. The draw is finished and I'm stuck with the same card.
It doesn't just happen on one card draws, it happen when drawing three or more.
One card comes up the same. I'm interested if anyone else has observed this.
Please, no boiler plate replies about how my mind is playing tricks. This is
real.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's not that though.
I have verified WITH a slot-tech this occurence at multiple casino's in Reno.
You discard, and the same card comes back (I've never noticed it on multi-play) on the single-line. As best as the tech could describe, is that it puts the card back into the main pile, and it just happens to pick that same card.
···
It is possible to have a sticky button cause a card to hold even if you never pushed that button. I have seen that happen.
If true, then the machines are gaffed and not legal under Nevada, Atlantic
City, Illinois and probably every other state that uses these devices. Also
if that is true, it adds almost 4% to the house edge which means you should
avoid them like the plague!!
···
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
TIMSPEED
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 11:32 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Cards not changing
It's not that though.
I have verified WITH a slot-tech this occurence at multiple casino's in
Reno.
You discard, and the same card comes back (I've never noticed it on
multi-play) on the single-line. As best as the tech could describe, is that
it puts the card back into the main pile, and it just happens to pick that
same card.
It is possible to have a sticky button cause a card to hold even if you
never pushed that button. I have seen that happen.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You've verified it by looking at the dealt hand and comparing it to the hand
after the draw? I am quite skeptical since the machines should self-diagnose
a major malfunction and shut down.
The programming assigns a number to each card in the deck. Before the card
is displayed it checks to see if that number has already been drawn. That's
why you don't get 2 Aces of Spades on the deal even though such an
occurrence is common given selection of only 52 random numbers. Very few
slot techs have any idea of how the machines actually work. What your tech
described is absolutely impossible to find in multiple machines and I'm not
aware of any way a single machine could malfunction in this way.
I very often think I've gotten the same card back when it's the same rank
and color. But the suit is different. You've probably been fooled by your
own brain and encouraged by an ignorant slot tech.
···
-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
TIMSPEED
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 9:32 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Cards not changing
It's not that though.
I have verified WITH a slot-tech this occurence at multiple casino's in
Reno.
You discard, and the same card comes back (I've never noticed it on
multi-play) on the single-line. As best as the tech could describe, is that
it puts the card back into the main pile, and it just happens to pick that
same card.
It is possible to have a sticky button cause a card to hold even if you
never pushed that button. I have seen that happen.
------------------------------------
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
Fooled by many hands? This didn't problem did not occur once or twice it
happened several times. I play in many casinos, the problem seemed prevalent in
Borgata to stand out, otherwise I would have ignored it. Have played video poker
for over twenty years to overlook such oddities.
Vet
···
________________________________
From: Bill Coleman <vphobby2@cox.net>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, August 26, 2010 12:52:08 PM
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Cards not changing
You've verified it by looking at the dealt hand and comparing it to the hand
after the draw? I am quite skeptical since the machines should self-diagnose
a major malfunction and shut down.
The programming assigns a number to each card in the deck. Before the card
is displayed it checks to see if that number has already been drawn. That's
why you don't get 2 Aces of Spades on the deal even though such an
occurrence is common given selection of only 52 random numbers. Very few
slot techs have any idea of how the machines actually work. What your tech
described is absolutely impossible to find in multiple machines and I'm not
aware of any way a single machine could malfunction in this way.
I very often think I've gotten the same card back when it's the same rank
and color. But the suit is different. You've probably been fooled by your
own brain and encouraged by an ignorant slot tech.
-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
TIMSPEED
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 9:32 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Cards not changing
It's not that though.
I have verified WITH a slot-tech this occurence at multiple casino's in
Reno.
You discard, and the same card comes back (I've never noticed it on
multi-play) on the single-line. As best as the tech could describe, is that
it puts the card back into the main pile, and it just happens to pick that
same card.
It is possible to have a sticky button cause a card to hold even if you
never pushed that button. I have seen that happen.
------------------------------------
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hmmmm. The sentence above is not really helping your argument 
EE
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, vet <vet611@...> wrote:
....This didn't problem did not occur once or twice it
happened several times.>
I'm not sure if they'll let me, but the next time this happens, I'll call a slot-tech over, have him run the hand back to verify it is the same card and I'll take a picture of the hands (If he'll let me)
As it was explained to me, the machine assigns numbers to each card (1-52) and is in a continuous cycle of those numbers. When you push the deal button it instantly displays 5 cards (numbers). Same thing happens when you push draw, except the cards you discard are put back into the mix. I always play on the SLOW setting, so this could be part of the problem, is it gives the machine an extra second to put the card back into the pile, rather than a nano-second of flashing a different card.
The discards do not "go back into the mix". Those numbers are ignored if
selected during the draw phase. The display speed does not affect the speed
of the RNG, it is going lightening fast anyway. Don't think of it as a
manual set of cards, it is just electrons travelling at light speed.
···
-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
TIMSPEED
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 11:23 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Cards not changing
I'm not sure if they'll let me, but the next time this happens, I'll call a
slot-tech over, have him run the hand back to verify it is the same card and
I'll take a picture of the hands (If he'll let me)
As it was explained to me, the machine assigns numbers to each card (1-52)
and is in a continuous cycle of those numbers. When you push the deal button
it instantly displays 5 cards (numbers). Same thing happens when you push
draw, except the cards you discard are put back into the mix. I always play
on the SLOW setting, so this could be part of the problem, is it gives the
machine an extra second to put the card back into the pile, rather than a
nano-second of flashing a different card.
------------------------------------
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
I always assumed the cards I don't hold aren't available to be "redrawn". That seemed implicit in the "Game Uses One 52 Card Deck" displayed on the machine.
A player could possibly rarely benefit from redrawing a discard when they accidentally discard part of a winning hand. In almost every other instance (except when a hand is misplayed) the player is put at a clear disadvantage.
More important to those concerned, making an unwanted discard part of the available pool of redraws makes the numbers in published video poker strategies mathematically inaccurate. A "1 in 47" and "1 in 48" chance of catching a royal, for example, might seem close but are not the same.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Coleman" <vphobby2@...> wrote:
The discards do not "go back into the mix". Those numbers are ignored if
selected during the draw phase.
If this is happening, as you say it is, I would get the slot tech to investigate then call over management. This is not a random draw, which by law they have to be. Cards are NOT put back into the pack. You should get gaming officials involved.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "TIMSPEED" <corvetteracing87@...> wrote:
I'm not sure if they'll let me, but the next time this happens, I'll call a slot-tech over, have him run the hand back to verify it is the same card and I'll take a picture of the hands (If he'll let me)
As it was explained to me, the machine assigns numbers to each card (1-52) and is in a continuous cycle of those numbers. When you push the deal button it instantly displays 5 cards (numbers). Same thing happens when you push draw, except the cards you discard are put back into the mix. I always play on the SLOW setting, so this could be part of the problem, is it gives the machine an extra second to put the card back into the pile, rather than a nano-second of flashing a different card.
When you push the deal button it instantly displays 5 cards (numbers). Same thing happens when you push draw, except the cards you discard are put back into the mix.>
If this were true, we would all be seeing repeat cards all of the time.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "TIMSPEED" <corvetteracing87@...> wrote:
I went through this same thread with a poster on "the wizard of vegas" forum. This is not happening unless the machine being played is clearly marked as a "discarded cards are reshuffled" game or a class II machine. If this is happening every gaming official should be notified immediately and the gaming world brought to it's knees. This is illegal on every level of gaming. I repeat, I don't believe it's happening on unmarked class III machines. Those who believe it is need to bring proof (photos) to the gunfight. Sounds like another "singerism" to me.
I played at the Borgota a few day's ago, and didn't see that happen.
Ned C.
The Wild Joker
···
--- On Wed, 8/25/10, thebat_1 <thebat@snet.net> wrote:
From: thebat_1 <thebat@snet.net>
Subject: [vpFREE] Cards not changing
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 7:19 PM
OK, I"m not a nut. Ive been playing at the Borgata in AC for a few days. I've been hearing about this weird phenomenon on this board and now I've seen it. I hit draw and a card that I've discarded doesn't change. It flickers for a moment and than returns. The draw is finished and I'm stuck with the same card. It doesn't just happen on one card draws, it happen when drawing three or more. One card comes up the same. I'm interested if anyone else has observed this. Please, no boiler plate replies about how my mind is playing tricks. This is real.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've seen this happen - its rare but at Borgata and about 10 other casino's in my career.
···
----- Original Message ----- From: "The Wild Joker" <jokerswild1203@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Cards not changing
I played at the Borgota a few day's ago, and didn't see that happen.
Ned C.
The Wild Joker
--- On Wed, 8/25/10, thebat_1 <thebat@snet.net> wrote:
From: thebat_1 <thebat@snet.net>
Subject: [vpFREE] Cards not changing
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 7:19 PM
OK, I"m not a nut. Ive been playing at the Borgata in AC for a few days. I've been hearing about this weird phenomenon on this board and now I've seen it. I hit draw and a card that I've discarded doesn't change. It flickers for a moment and than returns. The draw is finished and I'm stuck with the same card. It doesn't just happen on one card draws, it happen when drawing three or more. One card comes up the same. I'm interested if anyone else has observed this. Please, no boiler plate replies about how my mind is playing tricks. This is real.
tomflush wrote:
I've seen this happen - its rare but at Borgata and about 10 other
casino's in my career.
Because machines are known to periodically malfunction, (a couple of years ago I remember a bit of a buzz on Harrah's AC floor when someone's machine gave them quad Aces without a generating a payout on the quad because two of the Aces were of the same suit), I can't entirely dismiss such claims. Undoubtedly it happens.
However, I'm inclined to strongly believe that in the vast majority of cases where a discard is said to have shown up again on a draw it's actually a case of mistaken identity. I know from personal experience that when a draw replaces a discard with a new card of the same rank and same color suit, there can be so little change in appearance that my mind is fooled into thinking there was no change in card.
This happens all the more frequently in a venue such as Borgata, where machines speeds at set at top setting.
As has been pointed out, the only way to know for sure if this has happened is to have a tech display the machine memory of the hand deal/draw cards.
If you're sufficiently confident of your impression as to lay claim to it here, you should be willing to have a show down with tech management (if needed) in order to bring up the appropriate screen and vindicate that impression -- getting a refund on your bet if the hand was a losing hand and giving you true bragging rights here.
From what I understand, a VP machine deals 10 cards when you press the Deal button. If you discard 1, the 6th is displayed. If 2 are discarded, the 6th and 7th cards are displayed, and so on.
Might be a good question for an expert in the field, someone inside the industry.
Joe
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Coleman" <vphobby2@...> wrote:
The discards do not "go back into the mix". Those numbers are ignored if
selected during the draw phase. The display speed does not affect the speed
of the RNG, it is going lightening fast anyway. Don't think of it as a
manual set of cards, it is just electrons travelling at light speed.-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
TIMSPEED
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 11:23 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Cards not changingI'm not sure if they'll let me, but the next time this happens, I'll call a
slot-tech over, have him run the hand back to verify it is the same card and
I'll take a picture of the hands (If he'll let me)
As it was explained to me, the machine assigns numbers to each card (1-52)
and is in a continuous cycle of those numbers. When you push the deal button
it instantly displays 5 cards (numbers). Same thing happens when you push
draw, except the cards you discard are put back into the mix. I always play
on the SLOW setting, so this could be part of the problem, is it gives the
machine an extra second to put the card back into the pile, rather than a
nano-second of flashing a different card.------------------------------------
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
The method of dealing you describe (serial dealing) below has not been in use for over ten years. This has been discussed several times on here. You might want to review the archive for more detail.
But basically, the machine draws one card at a time and tests see if that card has already been drawn for the initial deal until it has five cards to display. For the redeal, it tests to see if the card has been held or discarded.
All done in a second.
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: jrsemifero@yahoo.com
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 12:49:37 +0000
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Cards not changingFrom what I understand, a VP machine deals 10 cards when you press the Deal button. If you discard 1, the 6th is displayed. If 2 are discarded, the 6th and 7th cards are displayed, and so on.
Might be a good question for an expert in the field, someone inside the industry.
Joe
>
> The discards do not "go back into the mix". Those numbers are ignored if
> selected during the draw phase. The display speed does not affect the speed
> of the RNG, it is going lightening fast anyway. Don't think of it as a
> manual set of cards, it is just electrons travelling at light speed.
>
> From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
> TIMSPEED
> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 11:23 AM
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Cards not changing
>
> I'm not sure if they'll let me, but the next time this happens, I'll call a
> slot-tech over, have him run the hand back to verify it is the same card and
> I'll take a picture of the hands (If he'll let me)
> As it was explained to me, the machine assigns numbers to each card (1-52)
> and is in a continuous cycle of those numbers. When you push the deal button
> it instantly displays 5 cards (numbers). Same thing happens when you push
> draw, except the cards you discard are put back into the mix. I always play
> on the SLOW setting, so this could be part of the problem, is it gives the
> machine an extra second to put the card back into the pile, rather than a
> nano-second of flashing a different card.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>------------------------------------
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Coleman" <vphobby2@...> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
I am an expert in the field. You are wrong about how the machines deal. Even
"Bob Dancer" no longer passes on this myth. The draw cards are selected when
the draw button is pushed, not before. This is true for IGT, Bally and WMS
machines.
···
-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
broncojoe1967
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 5:50 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Cards not changing
From what I understand, a VP machine deals 10 cards when you press the Deal
button. If you discard 1, the 6th is displayed. If 2 are discarded, the 6th
and 7th cards are displayed, and so on.
Might be a good question for an expert in the field, someone inside the
industry.
Joe
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Coleman" <vphobby2@...> wrote:
The discards do not "go back into the mix". Those numbers are ignored if
selected during the draw phase. The display speed does not affect the
speed
of the RNG, it is going lightening fast anyway. Don't think of it as a
manual set of cards, it is just electrons travelling at light speed.-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
TIMSPEED
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 11:23 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Cards not changingI'm not sure if they'll let me, but the next time this happens, I'll call
a
slot-tech over, have him run the hand back to verify it is the same card
and
I'll take a picture of the hands (If he'll let me)
As it was explained to me, the machine assigns numbers to each card (1-52)
and is in a continuous cycle of those numbers. When you push the deal
button
it instantly displays 5 cards (numbers). Same thing happens when you push
draw, except the cards you discard are put back into the mix. I always
play
on the SLOW setting, so this could be part of the problem, is it gives the
machine an extra second to put the card back into the pile, rather than a
nano-second of flashing a different card.