vpFREE2 Forums

Breaking Even

#1

Hi Gang:
I just wanted to comment on a couple of recent queries about our finishing
in the black for 2008.
Of course, Hedy and I are recreational players. We are hardly professionals.
We enjoy playing video poker and our goal in doing so is to get as many
freebies from our play as we can.
The best game available to us in Atlantic City, where we make the great
majority of our trips, is 9/6 JOB (99.5%), so even when you factor in the meager
cashback being offered by casinos these days the best we can reasonably hope
for on the gambling side is a break even year or a small loss.
But, when you consider all of the residual "comps" we get over the year, we
think a lot of folks on these boards would consider us pretty big winners.
For example, our play earned us four free trips (including airfare, rooms
and meals) in 2008, two to Laughlin, one to Tunica and one to Las Vegas. The
Vegas trip was our Seven Stars trip from Harrah's that included $500 which
could be used for meals, shows and in the Harrah's logo shops. Another Seven
Stars perk is a $500 celebration dinner which can be used at any restaurant in
any Harrah's property nationwide. Most of our trips also include limo rides to
and from the airport and more often than not, we are assigned multi-room
suites for our stay.
When we stay in AC, we are brought in at RFB, which means our meals are
comped, even in the hotel's gourmet restaurants.
We've also gotten free cruises (from the New Orleans property), many free
shows (including headliners such as Celine Dion, Jerry Seinfeld, Ellen
Degeneres, Vanessa Williams, Tony Bennett, Elton John etc.) over the years as well as
numerous party and tournament invitations at properties all over the country.
The gifts we've gotten range from free cameras, watches, jewelry and wearing
apparel to cooking grills, vacuum cleaners, toasters and frozen turkeys.
Gift cards from Macy's, Shop-Rite, Home Depot etc. and hundreds of dollars worth
of gas cards are the norm all during the year as well as access to all the
Harrah's diamond and Seven Stars lounges across the country. Also, as seven
Stars guests, we get free movies in our room and free internet access.
So, of the 52 weekends in 2008, we probably spent 40 or so in one gambling
venue or another ... in a free room, eating free meals, seeing a free show,
picking up a free gift, watching free movies and accessing the internet for
free.
If we can do all that AND make a few bucks gambling, we believe we've
accomplished our goals.
Regards,
CoachVee & Hedy

**************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making
headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000026)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Also, as seven
Stars guests, we get free movies in our room and free internet access.
So, of the 52 weekends in 2008, we probably spent 40 or so in one

gambling

venue or another ... in a free room, eating free meals, seeing a

free show,

picking up a free gift, watching free movies and accessing the

internet for

free.
If we can do all that AND make a few bucks gambling, we believe we've
accomplished our goals.

Harrah's 7-Stars card takes a million coin in. If you're playing at a
1% loss rate (which is a reasonable guess, it could be far worse
depending on what games you play and your error rate and any other
"mistakes" you or the casino makes), that's costing you $10,000 on
average, plus the occasional bad year which will cost you much more.
Were the benefits of 7-Stars you received worth $10,000 or more? Keep
in mind that Vegas was basically built on Vegas blackjack, a
supposedly nearly breakeven game. Obviously, in practice, the casinos
held a quite favorable edge.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, coachvee@... wrote:

#3

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...>
wrote:

that's costing you $10,000 on
average,

Just to play devil's advocate...

$10,000/40 = $250/trip. What would you spend if you spent 40 weekends in New York City
(hotel/meals/shows)?

.....bl

#4

Coach:

You seem to be advocating this lifestyle -- almost like an
infomercial. As they say if it sounds to good to be true, it probably
is too good to be true.

Besides the actual losses, at a million CI in per year, what about
the many W2Gs that you get that push you into a higher federal tax
bracket that you would otherwise not be in -- and perhaps clcking in
the ATM, which minimizes your deductions.

I thinks it's great that you think you are coming out ahead. But I
think you are not providing an accurate picture of the risks of
attempting to maintain Seven Star status and many of the added costs
you or others would incur.

If you have a big winning year which is possible and say you win
$50,000 or more, that is taxable, and you'll pay taxes on it at
higher rate than your normal income because it would be on top of
your regular income.

Now lets say you lose $50,000 the next year, you can tell yourself --
and everyone else -- that you are even, but you are really not even,
because you can't deduct the $50,000 loss that year. But you had to
pay taxes on the $50,000 gain the previous year.

And this doen't even consider state taxes for some people, which may
be taxable but offsetting loses even in a winning year may not be
able to be deducted. In a 5% state tax state -- that hurts the so-
called break even premise even further for some.

So if it works for you fine: I'm happy you're happy, and BTW I enjoy
your trip reports.

But I think you are presenting a simplistic view of what that type of
scenerio entails for some - perhaps even for yourself, coach.

ST

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

> Also, as seven
> Stars guests, we get free movies in our room and free internet

access.

> So, of the 52 weekends in 2008, we probably spent 40 or so in one
gambling
> venue or another ... in a free room, eating free meals, seeing a
free show,
> picking up a free gift, watching free movies and accessing the
internet for
> free.
> If we can do all that AND make a few bucks gambling, we believe

we've

> accomplished our goals.

Harrah's 7-Stars card takes a million coin in. If you're playing at

a

1% loss rate (which is a reasonable guess, it could be far worse
depending on what games you play and your error rate and any other
"mistakes" you or the casino makes), that's costing you $10,000 on
average, plus the occasional bad year which will cost you much more.
Were the benefits of 7-Stars you received worth $10,000 or more?

Keep

in mind that Vegas was basically built on Vegas blackjack, a
supposedly nearly breakeven game. Obviously, in practice, the

casinos

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, coachvee@ wrote:
held a quite favorable edge.

#5

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"

<nightoftheiguana2000@>

wrote:
>
> that's costing you $10,000 on
> average,

Just to play devil's advocate...

$10,000/40 = $250/trip. What would you spend if you spent 40

weekends in New York City

(hotel/meals/shows)?

.....bl

You're comparing NYC to Atlantic City? Atlantic City is in New Jersey,
you know? And it's not just across the river, it's a bit down the
coast, even way past Springsteen land, not far from the Pine Barrens
of Tom Brown. You're also assuming your loss rate is not greater than
1% (big assumption) and you're assuming you won't have a bad year,
only average or better than average?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@...> wrote:

#6

Some south jersey trivia, the Jersey desert, not quite the same as the
Mojave, but part of the largest remaining undeveloped tract on the
east coast:
http://www.trackertrail.com/pinebarrens/desert/desert01.html

#7

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...>
wrote:

. You're also assuming your loss rate is not greater than
1% (big assumption) and you're assuming you won't have a bad year,
only average or better than average?

My only intent was to say that spending $250 for couple to have a "fun" weekend is relatively
inexpensive, no matter where you choose to spend that weekend (New York, Disney World,
Tahoe, wherever), if you include meals, lodging and tickets to whatever fun things you want
to do.

..... bl

#8

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

>
You're comparing NYC to Atlantic City? Atlantic City is in New

Jersey,

you know? And it's not just across the river, it's a bit down the
coast, even way past Springsteen land, not far from the Pine Barrens
of Tom Brown.

  You mean the Pine Barrens of Christopher Moltisanti and Paulie
Walnuts Gualtieri :slight_smile:

#9

In addition to the 10k minimum average loss in qualifying for 7 Stars,
no one has mentioned the time involved.

If this couple are playing $5 vp at $25/spin and running 15k thru per
hour, it'll take 66 hours to qualify.

If the couple are playing simultaneously, it'll take 33 hours each, or
close to one full work week per year per partner.

So in addition to the financial loss, it also depends on how much one
feels one's time is worth, and what one chooses to do with one's free
time.

For some, spending 33 hours losing money playing vp in order to get a
rush for a weekend from a fancy bidet and some other "perks" is
probably not worth the time invested.

#10

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@...>
wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"

<nightoftheiguana2000@>

wrote:
>
> . You're also assuming your loss rate is not greater than
> 1% (big assumption) and you're assuming you won't have a bad year,
> only average or better than average?
>

My only intent was to say that spending $250 for couple to have

a "fun" weekend is relatively

inexpensive, no matter where you choose to spend that weekend (New

York, Disney World,

Tahoe, wherever), if you include meals, lodging and tickets to

whatever fun things you want

to do.

..... bl

I think most of us understood perfectly!

#11

So in addition to the financial loss, it also depends on how much one
feels one's time is worth, and what one chooses to do with one's free
time.

For some, spending 33 hours losing money playing vp in order to get a
rush for a weekend from a fancy bidet and some other "perks" is
probably not worth the time invested.
Reply:Thanks for the feedback....We can't see going out of our way to play less just to avoid attaining Seven Stars status and receiving the perks just so we can say "We did not waste our time". Heck, we love to play video poker and that means time invested is required. Since we play at various venues our perks really add up. While the fancy bidet does have it's special merits...don't forget about free airfare, limo service at our beck and call, free dining at the best steak houses in the casino's we play in, all expenses paid trip to any Harrahs properties each year, $500 cash dinners for us and any guest we invite, free spa treatments including facials, massages, hair and manicures, multiple rooms during any stay for use by family or any other guest we invite, annual gift selections, Christmas shopping sprees, $1000’s of dollars free play, $2,000 Macy gift cards, $1,500 Visa Cards, special assigned casino host at every Harrahs property we play
at, the list goes on and on. Now we agree with you that we could reduce the amount of time we play and thus avoid Seven Stars and all the perks from all the other venues and we could pay out of our pocket for all the perks and probably still wind up the same financially….but why would we do that when we love to play? See you at our summer Villa party at Red Rock and don’t forget to bring your dancing shoes….by the way…the third guest bathroom does not have the bidet so you will find the trip more “worth your time”. Thanks and good luck!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

--- On Tue, 1/6/09, jw776655 <jw776655@yahoo.com> wrote:

#12

33 hours each, or close to one full work week per year per
partner.

So in addition to the financial loss, it also depends on how
much one feels one's time is worth, and what one chooses to
do with one's free time.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jw776655" <jw776655@...wrote:

...If the couple are playing simultaneously, it'll take

=============================================
Exactly right! If one feels that playing VP is a great source
of fun and a favorite recreational activity, and one choses
to spend a great deal of time in the pursuit of this pleasurable
activity, that is what one should do. IMO, if one can afford to
indulge this hobby, it is reason enough to spend both time and
money to do so.

BTW, it is likely that not ALL of ones trips are losing ventures,
even when playing on non-advantage machines. When one also has the
pleasure of ending the trip in the black, the adventure becomes
even sweeter.

For some, spending 33 hours losing money playing vp in order to

get a rush for a weekend from a fancy bidet and some other "perks"
is probably not worth the time invested.

Of course, if one feels that way, they'd be wise indeed not to
emulate the gambling methods of those who derive their pleasure
in different ways. As the old cliche proclaims, "different strokes
for diferent folks"....

~Babe~

#13

Kathy,

I LOVE Red Rock - do you mind telling which host you work with? Excuse me if this is a "rude" question!

Valerie

#14

Kathy,

I LOVE Red Rock - do you mind telling which host you work with? Excuse me
if this is a "rude" question!

Valerie Sure no problem. Our real secret at Red Rock though is our casino host, Manny Manasewitsch vladimir.manasewitsch@stationcasinos.com He can be reached at 702-370-9892….tell him Charles and Kathy told you to call. He has an awesome personality and has plenty of heartfelt love for all his clients.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Valerie Pollard <vpollard@socal.rr.com> wrote:

#15

Kathy - "See you at our summer Villa party at Red Rock and don't
forget to bring your dancing shoes….by the way…the third guest
bathroom does not have the bidet so you will find the trip more "worth
your time". Thanks and good luck!"

It does sound like fun. Ok, I'll be there.

Re: another post - I don't think it's wanting to rain on anyone's
parade. The perks sound impressive in some cases, and I'm sure it
makes for a really good weekend.

If this were a real estate forum, and someone posted "Hey, just bought
a fabulous timeshare", some members would probably point out the
realities of buying timeshares - that it's not a good investment, at
least for many.
That doesn't mean those pointing it out are trying to spoil the fun of
those who enjoy their timeshares. It's pointing out some economic
realities.
After that I guess it's a matter of evaluating the situation and
proceeding according to personal tastes and goals.

#16

jw776655 wrote:

If this were a real estate forum, and someone posted "Hey, just
bought a fabulous timeshare", some members would probably point out
the realities of buying timeshares - that it's not a good
investment, at least for many.
That doesn't mean those pointing it out are trying to spoil the fun
of those who enjoy their timeshares. It's pointing out some economic
realities.
After that I guess it's a matter of evaluating the situation and
proceeding according to personal tastes and goals.

I vie for front of the line when it comes to pointing out the caveats
of play, and stressing that what one person values another might not.

However, when a post carries a pejorative tone that smacks of the
suggestion that someone's priorities are screwed up for pursuing a
given play goal, things are crossing into turf that's a little
obnoxious. That line may not have been crossed in this thread, but
it's been broached rather unpleasantly close.

- Harry

(ps -- on the timeshare front, we're one of those satisfied owners.
I'm prepared to step through the economics that underlie that
satisfaction -- and I'm confident I have the finance
training/background that's stands second to none to back it up.

But I also think our personal circumstances and vacation habits
ideally suited us for timeshare ownership -- we're a tad more
extravagant than most.

We also got in on a very good incentive deal with Hilton who has a
top-notch exchange network (a price that's held it's value with time
for Christmas week ownership at Orlando, moderate fees, plus credit
that mustered us RT airfare to Hawaii, 1 week's stay Hilton Waikaloa,
1 week car rental). I don't think the numbers play out nearly so
strongly for most.)

#17

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

1% loss rate (which is a reasonable guess, it could be far worse
depending on what games you play and your error rate and any other
"mistakes" you or the casino makes), that's costing you $10,000 on
average, plus the occasional bad year which will cost you much more.
Were the benefits of 7-Stars you received worth $10,000 or more? Keep
in mind that Vegas was basically built on Vegas blackjack, a
supposedly nearly breakeven game. Obviously, in practice, the casinos
held a quite favorable edge.

You know, gambling is a pretty funny enterprise if you think about it.
I can't help but sometimes step back and think about what I'm doing
and watching those around me in a casino... Most know full well the
deck is stacked against them and they are prepared to lose. They
expect to lose. Some can afford to lose more and some less.
Hopefully they play within those boundaries. The healthy ones do. A
very few are bright and disciplined and work hard enough that they
have a good shot at being a long term winner. I tend to think if
those folks applied the same intelligence and energy to another
endeavor that they would make more money and maybe even produce
something useful to their fellow human beings. I try to stay rational
and get what I consider value for my gambling silliness, but in those
times when I step back I can't help but think we are all victims of
B.F. Skinner. Humanity is a strange soup and I find laughing at it
essential to sanity.

Chandler

#18

Reading the various posts within this group and, yes, sometimes reading between the
lines, I think that most of us already do that, i.e., apply "the same intelligence and energy
to another endeavor that they would make more money and maybe even produce
something useful to their fellow human beings".

When we play VP, we are out for entertainment and recreation (at least I am). By that other
"endeavor", i.e., our "day job", I think that we have earned the right to pursue that
entertainment and recreation.

Just my $0.02.

..... bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "cmayhem2001" <chandler_re@...> wrote:

I tend to think if
those folks applied the same intelligence and energy to another
endeavor that they would make more money and maybe even produce
something useful to their fellow human beings.

Chandler

#19

Amen to that, bl!

I've spent the last 40+ years running a successful business
(with the help of EH {{O:). During the early years, we often
sacrificed recreation and vacations, in order to build the
business. Now that it's flourished, and I'm approaching
very advanced youth, I'll be darned if anyone is going to be
allowed to dictate how I spend my time and resources! Or even
guilt me about my choices.

Just my 2c worth! Now we have 4c backing our point of view,
bl!

~Babe~

···

===============================================
-In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537"...> wrote:

Reading the various posts within this group and, yes,
sometimes reading between the lines, I think that most of
us already do that, i.e., apply "the same intelligence and
energy to another endeavor that they would make more money
and maybe even produce something useful to their fellow human
beings".

When we play VP, we are out for entertainment and recreation (at
least I am). By that other "endeavor", i.e., our "day job",
I think that we have earned the right to pursue that
entertainment and recreation.

Just my $0.02.
..... bl

#20

===============================================

When we play VP, we are out for entertainment and recreation (at
least I am). By that other "endeavor", i.e., our "day job",
I think that we have earned the right to pursue that
entertainment and recreation.

Just my $0.02.
..... bl

I play locally several times a week. I venture out to Vegas at least a
couple of times a year. I play 1 game (25c DDB progressive) very near
perfectly and a couple of others fairly well. I play zero wild card
games cuz they don't have good paytables here & I don't want to mess w/
them on my Vegas trips. I've always been a very competitive person.
At retirement age, my volleyball days etc. are behind me. Still do a
little racing to keep the competitive juices flowing, but the car takes
the abuse...not my body. I think I play VP to see to myself if I can
beat the casino at it's own game. I don't plan on making much money.
I want to see how many years I can end up positive (07 - yes; 08 no)

BTW, I've looked at the last cxoupla pictures posted...congrats to the

winners, but how in the "H" do you put down $500 every time you hit the
button. All I can say is "WOW"