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Bob Dancer's CasinoGaming Column - 4 AUG 2009

Analyzing a Royal Flush Promotion

http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2009/0804.html

<a href="http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2009/0804.html">
http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2009/0804.html</a>

···

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This link is posted for informational purposes and doesn't
constitute an endorsement or approval of the linked article's
content by vpFREE. Any discussion of the article must be done
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Analyzing a Royal Flush Promotion

The Danceman strikes again! Im paraphrasing Mr. Dancer's last colum: 'There's a convinient store in town w/ FPKB joker's wild @ the 2$ level. Also club royal's pays double. I will not reveal the location of the store for fear of annihalation of the games.' Hmmm, really? I guess Mr. Dancer beleives nobody is capable of going to evrey Green Valley grocery location in town (I believe thats the convience store chain w/ the club royal promo) and checking the paytables. There are way too many BOA's and BOA deluxe's (burn out artist deluxe) out there savy enough to put those relativly easy 2 pieces of the puzzle together. The backwards cap guy w/ the ipod and red bull has already scouted 40% of the valley's convience stores since yesterday. Obviuosly this is a play Dancer deems personaly expendable;just expendable enough to use as fodder for another colum. Surprise, Mr. Dancers own financial agenda takes precedence. I wonder why Mr.Dancer doesnt give juicy clues as to the whereabouts of that bar/pub w/ the 5$ full pay Double Bonus Dueces Wild?

************************************************

This link is posted for informational purposes and doesn't
constitute an endorsement or approval of the linked article's
content by vpFREE. Any discussion of the article must be done
in accordance with vpFREE's rules and policies.

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···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE Administrator" <vpfreeadmin@...> wrote:

"Surprise, Mr. Dancers own financial agenda takes precedence. I wonder why
Mr.Dancer doesnt give juicy clues as to the whereabouts of that bar/pub w/ the
5$ full pay Double Bonus Dueces Wild?"

Are we slightly bitter? How bout you go to every bar in town and find it yourself. Just a thought.

"Surprise, Mr. Dancers own financial agenda takes precedence. I wonder why
Mr.Dancer doesnt give juicy clues as to the whereabouts of that bar/pub w/ the
5$ full pay Double Bonus Dueces Wild?"

Why should he? Many people on this forum are barely civil to him; others cannot manage even that. I think he is generous with his knowledge and gracious when he is vilified on this forum. he is making a good living from VP, like many of you. he does not owe anybody anything. We all have our little machine secrets that we do not choose to share. if anything will burn down a good play, it's the pros.

           Annie

···

On Aug 7, 2009, at 2:57 PM, steve wrote:

Are we slightly bitter? How bout you go to every bar in town and find it yourself. Just a thought.

LOL! Typical response from Dancer apolagists. Instead of engaging in constructive debate about what I (or any Dnacer critic)post, they simply offer childish, misguided retorts. Slightly bitter? I really do know the whereabouts of the aforementioned bartops, as well as the 2$ FPJW w/2x club royal, and several other 50$/hr+ plays in town. Of course since I dont devulge their locations (adhere to the sunshine policy) many her choose to label me a crackpot. Make no mistake about it: I am one of the top pro's, just like Dancer. And just like Dancer I have made plenty of money doing so and intend to keep making money as long worthwhile plays remain. Unlike Mr.Dancer, Im honest about my agenda. That is making money and keeping any golden goose plays and/or playing strategies my own secret. Hmmm, I guessing the same agenda as 90% of all players. Furthermore, Im guessing the folks who critize me for being critical of Dancer are low to medium rollers whom a)were Video poker ignorant until they came across Dancer's software/classes or b)have never had a extremely lucrative play burned to the ground due to added pressure put on by entities that spoonfeed info to previously unaware individuals or c)both. Frankly, I speaking for the minority of VPfree members whom logged many hours the past 15+ years,reaped big rewards for our considerbale efforts, and ultimatley seen the untimely demise of great opportunities because Dancer types choose to expose beatable games and strategies for personal financial gains. Again perfectly legal and well within thier rights, but that doesnt mean the relativly few of us who are adversaly affected have to like it. Just my thoughts.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "steve" <radek2166@...> wrote:

You're sending a mixed message. There's a big difference between not
liking it and regarding it as wrong. If he's well within his rights,
what's the problem? If the weather bothers you, do you get mad at it?
I would only send a message to an e-mail list that went into the kind
of detail you went into about why I didn't like what someone else did
if I thought he was wrong and was trying to correct him, in which case
I wouldn't say that he was within his rights.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "steve" <radek2166@...> wrote:

Are we slightly bitter? How bout you go to every bar in town and find it yourself. Just a thought.

LOL! Typical response from Dancer apolagists. Instead of engaging in constructive debate about what I (or any Dnacer critic)post, they simply offer childish, misguided retorts. Slightly bitter? I really do know the whereabouts of the aforementioned bartops, as well as the 2$ FPJW w/2x club royal, and several other 50$/hr+ plays in town. Of course since I dont devulge their locations (adhere to the sunshine policy) many her choose to label me a crackpot. Make no mistake about it: I am one of the top pro's, just like Dancer. And just like Dancer I have made plenty of money doing so and intend to keep making money as long worthwhile plays remain. Unlike Mr.Dancer, Im honest about my agenda. That is making money and keeping any golden goose plays and/or playing strategies my own secret. Hmmm, I guessing the same agenda as 90% of all players. Furthermore, Im guessing the folks who critize me for being critical of Dancer are low to medium rollers whom a)were Video poker ignorant until

they came across Dancer's software/classes or b)have never had a extremely lucrative play burned to the ground due to added pressure put on by entities that spoonfeed info to previously unaware individuals or c)both. Frankly, I speaking for the minority of VPfree members whom logged many hours the past 15+ years,reaped big rewards for our considerbale efforts, and ultimatley seen the untimely demise of great opportunities because Dancer types choose to expose beatable games and strategies for personal financial gains. Again perfectly legal and well within thier rights, but that doesnt mean the relativly few of us who are adversaly affected have to like it. Just my thoughts.

Why do you suppose this is the case?

···

On 8/7/09, Ann Gauvin <ride3843@ride.ri.net> wrote:

> Why should he? Many people on this forum are barely civil to him;
> others cannot manage even that.
>
> Annie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Like I've said 100 times, Bob's deal is to be the only VP professional.

One of the biggest names in the business, he built his bankroll in part playing gas stations, taverns, etc...he kept several notebooks, separated by location, etc. You'd be surprised how many 101% Joker triple plays he'd find.

So, you put that kind of shoeleather into finding the spots, you deserve the rewards you get. I don't understand why Bob would want to out someone else's play, but that's kind of the guy he is...which what I suspect is going on here. Which is also why Bob's fellow pros hate him passionately. There are several unwritten rules about our business, and Bob violates a lot of them.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE Administrator" <vpfreeadmin@...> wrote:

Analyzing a Royal Flush Promotion

http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2009/0804.html

<a href="http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2009/0804.html">
http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2009/0804.html</a>

bankroll in part playing gas stations, taverns, etc...he kept
several notebooks, separated by location, etc. You'd be
surprised how many 101% Joker triple plays he'd find.

So, you put that kind of shoeleather into finding the spots, you deserve the rewards you get..............

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

....One of the biggest names in the business, he built his

==================================================
I absolutely agree with you, P.

Where does this sense of entitlement come from? Why do a few
players believe that because a smart and hard working person
expended the time and energy to ferret out a nice play, that
the product of his/her work should be spoonfeed to them? I guess that I just don't understand that mentality.

I also cannot relate to those players who think that for-profit
casino businesses are OBLIGATED to provide 100% + games, indicate
where they are located by putting large signs over the positive plays, and additionally offer liberal comps/CB/FP to induce folks
through their doors.

Especially in these financially distressed times, when ALL casino
profits are way down, I believe that we should cut them a tiny bit of slack. After all, we really don't want them all to declare bankruptcy, or, even worse, go out of business.

If a casino feels the need to downgrade a pay table, or to require extra coin-in per point, so be it. If you don't like that decision, you have the choice to take your bankroll elsewhere. But please try to stop whining about their (IMO, sometimes wrong-headed) attempts to make their business more profitable.

Frequently, I don't agree with a casino's mind set, and think that they are actually harming themselves in the long run, but at least I understand why they feel that it's prudent to make these decisions.

It's been my experience, that when I frequent "local's casinos" and stay off the Strip, that I can always find a good play. Sometimes it takes a lot of looking, but for me at least, that's a fun part of the challenge.

When I occasionally find a "casino mistake", I am doubly gratified that I was smart enough to discover the juicy play. You can also be sure, that outside of a VERY few, trusted friends, I will not share the play with others. I consider this kind of information to be proprietory, in much the same category as sharing inside information about my business with my competitors.

~Babe~

You may call what the casinos are doing as trying to make more profits, but I call it greed. That's what got them in this mess to start with.

How did all the older casinos make money when the vp machines had full pay schedules? Seems to me they must have done OK as they kept either building new casinos or added on to older ones.

People fall all over themselves looking for 100% payback machines. 100% payback to me means you are breaking even. And that 100% includes hitting a Royal. All casinos everywhere can have 100% PAYBACK MACHINES and they're still going to make money.

While I agree with the above, it seemed to me that the message that
prompted this storm of "why should BD be obligated to share his plays"
protests wasn't actually complaining about that.

What they were complaining about was that BD outed/exposed a good play
elsewhere that he doesn't play himself, thus almost certainly killing
the play for other people who may have been hitting it. The question
about why BD doesn't broadcast his own plays was thus intended as
sarcastic.

···

On Sat, 8 Aug 2009, jackessiebabe wrote:

Where does this sense of entitlement come from? Why do a few players
believe that because a smart and hard working person expended the time
and energy to ferret out a nice play, that the product of his/her work
should be spoonfeed to them? I guess that I just don't understand that
mentality.

I also cannot relate to those players who think that for-profit casino
businesses are OBLIGATED to provide 100% + games, indicate where they
are located by putting large signs over the positive plays, and
additionally offer liberal comps/CB/FP to induce folks through their
doors.

"Robert Levine" <stuckinvegas@...> wrote:

You may call what the casinos are doing as trying to make more
profits, but I call it greed.

Do you try to find games in the casino with the best returns possible?
Most people who read this forum do so. Do you call that "greed"? If
you call a casino's attempts to make money "greed," then you should
call it "greed" when gamblers do the same thing. Otherwise, it's
hypocrisy, that is, using different standards to judge others than
you use for yourself.

After all, the great majority of VP players here could survive without
profitable VP play. Few if any of us would starve to death. By the
logic you use, it must be "greed" to seek gambling profits.

Stuart (RandomStu)
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

Locust nailed it.

Several posters supportive of Dancer completely missed the point of the Dancer critics.

Eliminating the opportunities of your competitors to drive them out of business is not an attractive attribute. Is it true? Professionals (per paladin) overwhelming say "yes."

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Lone Locust of the Apocalypse <zorak@...> wrote:

On Sat, 8 Aug 2009, jackessiebabe wrote:
> Where does this sense of entitlement come from? Why do a few players
> believe that because a smart and hard working person expended the time
> and energy to ferret out a nice play, that the product of his/her work
> should be spoonfeed to them? I guess that I just don't understand that
> mentality.
>
> I also cannot relate to those players who think that for-profit casino
> businesses are OBLIGATED to provide 100% + games, indicate where they
> are located by putting large signs over the positive plays, and
> additionally offer liberal comps/CB/FP to induce folks through their
> doors.

While I agree with the above, it seemed to me that the message that
prompted this storm of "why should BD be obligated to share his plays"
protests wasn't actually complaining about that.

What they were complaining about was that BD outed/exposed a good play
elsewhere that he doesn't play himself, thus almost certainly killing
the play for other people who may have been hitting it. The question
about why BD doesn't broadcast his own plays was thus intended as
sarcastic.

Eliminating the opportunities of your competitors to drive them out of business is not an attractive attribute.

So? Since he's a subject of this thread, I want to clarify that I'm
not referring to Bob Dancer, but, from my experience, those who will
"rat" to management about competitors' plays don't care what their
competitors think of them. Although there are "pockets" of
relationships, I've seen no evidence of solidarity among professional
gamblers in general. Breaking "unwritten rules," even those against
blatantly stealing, financially and intellectually, from each other
and physically attacking each other, has no consequences in that
anarchic business, maybe due to the fact that it's based on the
generally unattractive trait of taking advantage of others.

WOW! The miscreants that you describe bear not the SLIGHTEST
resemblance to the VP pros whom I consider to be dear friends!

I am very fortunate to be well acquainted with some honest,
trustworthy and honorable players, who just happen to earn
their living by gambling.

I'm really happy that we don't travel in the same VP circles!

~Babe~

···

=============================================---
In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:

...Although there are "pockets" of relationships, I've seen no evidence of solidarity among professional gamblers in general.

Breaking "unwritten rules," even those against blatantly stealing, financially and intellectually, from each other and physically attacking each other, has no consequences in that anarchic business, maybe due to the fact that it's based on the generally unattractive trait of taking advantage of others.

paladingamingllc - can you explain why BD owes you a living. Even if he is a parasite, so are you - it is not like you are educating children, discovering new medicnes or not doing anything useful for society - you are both bottom feeders sucking the blood out of businesses that employ people.

···

At least BD has educated a lot of players, so there are many more players who are losing less money than otherwise because of him, than the sparse number of locusts like you, so all in all he is good thing for most players. --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc" <paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE Administrator" <vpfreeadmin@> wrote:
>
> Analyzing a Royal Flush Promotion
>
> http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2009/0804.html
>
> <a href="http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2009/0804.html">
> http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2009/0804.html</a>

Like I've said 100 times, Bob's deal is to be the only VP professional.

One of the biggest names in the business, he built his bankroll in part playing gas stations, taverns, etc...he kept several notebooks, separated by location, etc. You'd be surprised how many 101% Joker triple plays he'd find.

So, you put that kind of shoeleather into finding the spots, you deserve the rewards you get. I don't understand why Bob would want to out someone else's play, but that's kind of the guy he is...which what I suspect is going on here. Which is also why Bob's fellow pros hate him passionately. There are several unwritten rules about our business, and Bob violates a lot of them.

One of my favorite lines in any movie is in "The Godfather, Part 3,"
in which Michael says that the higher up he went in the "legitimate"
world, the more corrupt it got. Compete with those "honest,
trustworthy and honorable players" at their most valuable plays and
see how long you regard them as "dear friends."

···

WOW! The miscreants that you describe bear not the SLIGHTEST
resemblance to the VP pros whom I consider to be dear friends!

I am very fortunate to be well acquainted with some honest,
trustworthy and honorable players, who just happen to earn
their living by gambling.

I'm really happy that we don't travel in the same VP circles!

~Babe~
=============================================---
In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:

...Although there are "pockets" of relationships, I've seen no evidence of solidarity among professional gamblers in general.

Breaking "unwritten rules," even those against blatantly stealing, financially and intellectually, from each other and physically attacking each other, has no consequences in that anarchic business, maybe due to the fact that it's based on the generally unattractive trait of taking advantage of others.

Although there are "pockets" of
relationships, I've seen no evidence of solidarity among professional
gamblers in general.

really?

how many times have you seen the real name of bob dancer posted in
this group, even by those of us who dislike him? or jean scott, or
anyone else? in the time since i've been a member, i can count, um,
none. it's something you just don't do, and it's best not to be known
as someone who does stuff like that.

i cite this example not because their real names are especially
important, since they aren't for people who are easily recognizable by
appearance, but to establish that a certain amount of adherence to
conduct does exist.

Breaking "unwritten rules," even those against blatantly stealing, financially and intellectually, from each other and physically attacking each other, has no consequences in that anarchic business

if you've studied any amount of game theory, you'll know that anarchy
does not necessarily lead to backstabbing, but often to cooperation
among cliques with exclusion and hostility towards those who do not
cooperate. this is exactly what we see in the community of skilled
players in vegas, and with bob dancer.

i've been startled by the amount of cooperation and unsolicited help
i've received from other skilled players, most of them presumably
pros, since i moved to vegas. it makes sense if you think about it; if
you're one of twenty people who knows something useful, the
incremental cost in telling a twenty-first is small, while the
potential gain if they return the favor by telling you something you
don't know is large.

while bob dancer is sufficiently well known to develop plenty of
contacts even if a large percentage of potential contacts strongly
dislike him, and he is certainly skilled and diligent enough to do
well even without cooperating with others, he does experience at least
some blowback from being known as a rogue.

i once saw him on a very strong play, three months after i'd started
playing it and a month after it'd gotten swarmed pretty much nonstop
by APs. he'd been grinding it for many hours straight, and made a
comment about how he'd just found it recently, sarcastically adding
"for some reason nobody i know told me about it earlier." well, of
course they wouldn't.

on a later date he asked a friend of mine if he could have the machine
at midnight, when my friend was going to stop playing... heh. for
someone else, maybe, but for bob dancer, no, he'll find someone else
to give it to.

anyway, this is a bit of a digression, but emergent cooperation among
selfish actors is a phenomena which i find cheerful and reassuring,
and i've been happy to see it exhibited in a context which was new to
me. i'm surprised to see someone claiming it doesn't exist here.

cheers,

five

···

Tom Robertson<madameguyon@embarqmail.com> wrote:

emergent cooperation among
selfish actors is a phenomena which i find cheerful and reassuring,
and i've been happy to see it exhibited in a context which was new to
me. i'm surprised to see someone claiming it doesn't exist here.

cheers,

five

Well over 99% of my perception of how policemen relate to each other
comes from television, but, fortunately, it doesn't have to be
accurate for me to make an illustration.

My perception is that when a crime is committed against a policeman,
every other policeman rallies in support of him and they all make a
special effort to bring the criminal to justice. That's more what I
meant by "general solidarity." When professional gamblers break
unwritten rules against each other, the one against whom the rule was
broken and a few people with whom he's most closely associated might
respond, but that's as far as it goes. Although I agree with you that
there's a great deal of cooperation among them that's based on
selfishness, they don't have the "protection" that policemen, per my
perception, have, as I've learned the hard way. Your example of no
one reporting Bob's or Jean's real name is an example of an unwritten
rule not being broken, not an example of what I meant by "general
solidarity." You wrote that it's best not to be known as someone who
does that kind of thing and I still don't see why, since those who do
that kind of thing aren't affected by any realistic response.

Good point, but I generally seek out the more honorable pros, and only one in my personal Rolodex is based in Vegas. No surprise why that is. As I'm fond of saying...what happens in Vegas, should really, absolutely, positively stay in Vegas. I've watched the reptilian mind of the Vegas VP pro burn down a VBJ play and a 100% multiline play, both in SoCal, which had been there almost forever, and would still be there to this day, had the pros, and I love saying this, left a little money on the table. The VBJ play I'm still steamed about three years later, because none of the torchbearers played it as well as they thought they did.

The culture is a little different in other locales. When I was playing in AC, the pros generally helped each other, and tried not to burn anything down. Vegas is substantially more Darwinian, and substantially more industrial.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:

>Eliminating the opportunities of your competitors to drive them out of business is not an attractive attribute.

So? Since he's a subject of this thread, I want to clarify that I'm
not referring to Bob Dancer, but, from my experience, those who will
"rat" to management about competitors' plays don't care what their
competitors think of them. Although there are "pockets" of
relationships, I've seen no evidence of solidarity among professional
gamblers in general. Breaking "unwritten rules," even those against
blatantly stealing, financially and intellectually, from each other
and physically attacking each other, has no consequences in that
anarchic business, maybe due to the fact that it's based on the
generally unattractive trait of taking advantage of others.