vpFREE2 Forums

Bob Dancer's CasinoGaming Column - 28 APR 2009

Dealing with Changing Casino Conditions

http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2009/0428.html

<a href="http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2009/0428.html">
http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2009/0428.html</a>

···

************************************************

This link is posted for informational purposes and doesn't
constitute an endorsement or approval of the linked article's
content by vpFREE. Any discussion of the article must be done
in accordance with vpFREE's rules and policies.

************************************************

i am finding it interesting he basically admits he has accomplished slowing these machines down to such a degree they are no longer worth playing...the dancer effect takes another step forward...speaking of which i believe the south point machines have been slowed down again and now replace eastside cannery as the slowest in lv...this guy is on a roll....

After seeing this comment, I went back and reread the column in question. I can't see anything that could be interpreted that way.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "irdd3000" <irdd@...> wrote:

i am finding it interesting he basically admits he has accomplished slowing these machines down to such a degree they are no longer worth playing...

I'm not sure why he would be proud of slowing down the machines. I'm also not a fan of trying to be on both sides of the aisle. Your either a gambler or a casino management type.

···

To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: irdd@netzero.net
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 03:36:24 +0000
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Bob Dancer's CasinoGaming Column - 28 APR 2009

      i am finding it interesting he basically admits he has accomplished slowing these machines down to such a degree they are no longer worth playing...the dancer effect takes another step forward...speaking of which i believe the south point machines have been slowed down again and now replace eastside cannery as the slowest in lv...this guy is on a roll....

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™ Hotmail®:…more than just e-mail.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_more_042009

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Let's say you played 25¢ Full Pay Deuces Wild (100.76%) for a total of 20 hours each month. These machines are a bit slow, so let's assume you can play 600 hands per hour ($750)."

···

After seeing this comment, I went back and reread the column in question. I can't see anything that could be interpreted that way.

HUH? The article simply states that the machines are slow. How does that imply that Bob got them slowed down?

Mac
www.CasinoCamper.com

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "irdd3000" <irdd@...> wrote:

i am finding it interesting he basically admits he has accomplished slowing these machines down to such a degree they are no longer worth playing...

I was wondering the same thing. I can't wait to hear this. lol

Seems to me that Bob Dancer is trying to help preserve opportunity in this field. I know not everyone agrees with his approach, but we cannot go back in time to the early 90s. It ain't going to happen. I think he is a realistic and forward looking individual.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mac McClellan" <mac_mcclellan@...> wrote:

HUH? The article simply states that the machines are slow. How does that imply that Bob got them slowed down?

uhhh.....general knowledge that bd is currently consulting at eastside and south point...one of his current strategies is to slow down quarter machines to the level they aren't worth playing...it is no coincidence these 2 casinos are battling it out for slowest machines in lv (south point is leading at the moment)...other strategies include reducing paytables or removing games altogether...hence the term 'dancer effect' to reference any kind of downgrade is given to the only member of the vp community actively making vp worse merely for his own short term gain...

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mac McClellan" <mac_mcclellan@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "irdd3000" <irdd@> wrote:
>
> i am finding it interesting he basically admits he has accomplished slowing these machines down to such a degree they are no longer worth playing...
>

HUH? The article simply states that the machines are slow. How does that imply that Bob got them slowed down?

Mac
www.CasinoCamper.com

if you haven't kept up on these escapades, try an advanced search using a date after dec 1, 2008 and the word 'cannery' is the message body...

I know he is consulting at those two places but I cannot believe that he has some "sinister" motive as it seems you are implying. Surely, whatever his strategy is, it must be for what he thinks is for the good of video poker in general. Am I misreading the situation?

-BB

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "irdd3000" <irdd@...> wrote:

uhhh.....general knowledge that bd is currently consulting at eastside and south point...one of his current strategies is to slow down quarter machines to the level they aren't worth playing...it is no coincidence these 2 casinos are battling it out for slowest machines in lv (south point is leading at the moment)...other strategies include reducing paytables or removing games altogether...hence the term 'dancer effect' to reference any kind of downgrade is given to the only member of the vp community actively making vp worse merely for his own short term gain...

I know he is consulting at those two places but I cannot believe that he has some "sinister" motive as it seems you are implying. Surely, whatever his strategy is, it must be for what he thinks is for the good of video poker in general. Am I misreading the situation?

-BB

Yes.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

How so? We are not going to ever return to the "old days". I agree that the overall competency of vp players has risen due to his teaching, but if he hadn't done it someone else would have. It's the advent of personal computers and the internet that has also led to an increase in player knowledge, in other words the genie is out of the bottle now and is not going back in. As I understand it, he thinks that with increased player knowledge will follow an increase in demand for decent games, promos, and casino benefits in general. Supply and demand. The casinos are not going to give away the store, and must take some kind of defensive measures. Can there be a "happy medium" in this perpetual cat and mouse game?

I'd be interested in what else you or anyone else has to add, above and beyond a simple "yes". I am relatively new to video poker and am very much interested in seeing a healthy future for our beloved game.

-BB

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jw776655" <jw776655@...> wrote:

Yes.

"I know he is consulting at those two places but I cannot believe that he has some "sinister" motive as it seems you are implying. Surely, whatever his strategy is, it must be for what he thinks is for the good of video poker in general. Am I misreading the situation?"

There is a group of VP players that believe Dancer is the antichrist and reponsible for all downgrades and reductions in playing speed. His years of publishing books and software to help other players increase there skill level was just a ploy that set him up to be a high-priced casino consultant who wears horns and wants to eliminate all good plays except the ones he plays at the high dollar level.

When the world has passed you by you have to blame someone. They blame Bob Dancer.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't think his motives are sinister....but he does know what he is doing. I visited the South Point over the weekend and the machines were slowed down to a crawl and there were only 2 people playing, me and another person. I have heard that the speed can affect the payback. I think that the South point wants to advertise that they have 100%+ games but really do not want them played. They are located int he alley by the slot club and you feel secluded (at least I did) from the main casino. I'm going to try M or go back to some of my other favorite casinos. I liken this to false advertising.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, NC Wanderer <larbo929@... wrote:

There is a group of VP players that believe Dancer is the antichrist and
reponsible for all downgrades and reductions in playing speed. His
years of publishing books and software to help other players increase
there skill level was just a ploy that set him up to be a high-priced
casino consultant who wears horns and wants to eliminate all good
plays except the ones he plays at the high dollar level.

When the world has passed you by you have to blame someone.
They blame Bob Dancer.

I feel I have to comment, knowing that Bob monitors this list and will probably respond privately. I do not intend to really attack him, I have no idea of his motives but there are certain ethical issues which I consider over the line while many others do not.

When I have consulted for a casino or worked for a vendor I will not play either at that casino or at any customers of the vendor I worked for (slight exception, I did some consulting for Bally Technologies last year. They said it was their policy to allow everyone to play at their customers. I did not play at customers who had their slot tracking systems but since I had no interaction with the slot side I did not care if they owned Bally slots.)

Bob Dancer has been seen playing at casinos believed to be his customers (Compton Dancer Consulting) and some of those have put in the $100/hour plus games he can afford but often cause an overreaction by management that truly doesn't understand the number involved and have all good games pulled.

My questioning of his ethical standards comes from his book where he admits, proudly, that he engaged in actions most people consider over the line (like bribing slot attendants to get him extra drawing tickets or wanting to keep the higher-denomination tokens that were mistakenly loaded into a lower-denomination machine).

I know my standards are higher than most and will not condemn those that keep to a lower standard.

But the point as phrased in this thread is whether he is trying to sabotage the advantage player. Clearly not. But if I was a casino manager his obvious conflict of interest would make me uncertain whether he is advising me how to maximize revenue and income or whether he is shading his advice in his own interest.

Again, Bob I am not accusing you of anything worse that either things you have publicized or that you have a built-in conflict of interest with at least some of your company's clients. In the past you've thought I was your enemy, always attacking. In truth, I am a bit put off that we've been introduced 5 or 6 times over the years and you still don't have any idea who I am. But that's ego and really has nothing to do with this post.

Bill

···

At 08:42 AM 5/4/2009, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, NC Wanderer <larbo929@... wrote:

> There is a group of VP players that believe Dancer is the antichrist and
> reponsible for all downgrades and reductions in playing speed. His
> years of publishing books and software to help other players increase
> there skill level was just a ploy that set him up to be a high-priced
> casino consultant who wears horns and wants to eliminate all good
> plays except the ones he plays at the high dollar level.
>
> When the world has passed you by you have to blame someone.
> They blame Bob Dancer.

I don't think his motives are sinister....but he does know what he is doing. I visited the South Point over the weekend and the machines were slowed down to a crawl and there were only 2 people playing, me and another person. I have heard that the speed can affect the payback. I think that the South point wants to advertise that they have 100%+ games but really do not want them played. They are located int he alley by the slot club and you feel secluded (at least I did) from the main casino. I'm going to try M or go back to some of my other favorite casinos. I liken this to false advertising.

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

I can only guess what Bob Dancer's exact motivations are, but I want to think that he is perceptive and looking at the inevitable future of our game. The casino MUST continue to profit, they are not just going to throw money away. But with the ever-increasing knowledge of the player base, the casinos will be shooting themselves in the foot if they take out all good games and then no one plays. So it's a balancing act, and a continuous cat and mouse game that theoretically could continue forever, hopefully. If video poker witnesses the same kind of popularity explosion that we have seen with live poker, (with the help of teachers like Bob Dancer and his excellent software), then there will ALWAYS be "plenty of fish" for the casinos to make money off of which will enable a small percentage of advantage players to continue doing their thing. In trying to make a live poker analogy I would bring your attention to back in the mid 70s when Doyle Brunson published his Super System book. This was a very deep book, especially compared to what was available at the time, and I heard players say that that would "wise up the fish" and poker would be ruined. But that sure didn't happen, did it? No way, the poker world just got BETTER! That's human nature, no matter how popular poker or video poker becomes, there's only going to be a relative handful of players willing to do the hard studying. I think Bob Dancer recognizes that, and wants to nurture that growth and the necessary balancing act that is required to keep the game "healthy".

The so-called genie is out of the bottle. We must move on from the days of fast FPDW machines that were eligible for full points promos and benefits. It ain't going to happen no more. The smartest players will have to continue to adjust, perhaps working harder for less profit.

I dunno, that's my 2-cents, that turned into a long-winded roll of pennies.

-Bob Bartop

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

I feel I have to comment, knowing that Bob monitors this list and
will probably respond privately. I do not intend to really attack
him, I have no idea of his motives but there are certain ethical
issues which I consider over the line while many others do not.

When I have consulted for a casino or worked for a vendor I will not
play either at that casino or at any customers of the vendor I worked
for (slight exception, I did some consulting for Bally Technologies
last year. They said it was their policy to allow everyone to play at
their customers. I did not play at customers who had their slot
tracking systems but since I had no interaction with the slot side I
did not care if they owned Bally slots.)

Bob Dancer has been seen playing at casinos believed to be his
customers (Compton Dancer Consulting) and some of those have put in
the $100/hour plus games he can afford but often cause an
overreaction by management that truly doesn't understand the number
involved and have all good games pulled.

My questioning of his ethical standards comes from his book where he
admits, proudly, that he engaged in actions most people consider over
the line (like bribing slot attendants to get him extra drawing
tickets or wanting to keep the higher-denomination tokens that were
mistakenly loaded into a lower-denomination machine).

I know my standards are higher than most and will not condemn those
that keep to a lower standard.

But the point as phrased in this thread is whether he is trying to
sabotage the advantage player. Clearly not. But if I was a casino
manager his obvious conflict of interest would make me uncertain
whether he is advising me how to maximize revenue and income or
whether he is shading his advice in his own interest.

Again, Bob I am not accusing you of anything worse that either things
you have publicized or that you have a built-in conflict of interest
with at least some of your company's clients. In the past you've
thought I was your enemy, always attacking. In truth, I am a bit put
off that we've been introduced 5 or 6 times over the years and you
still don't have any idea who I am. But that's ego and really has
nothing to do with this post.

Bill

Could be that Bob D. is getting favorable plays as part of some compensation package for services performed. Play for your pay,
as it were. Thought I would put that spin on it anyway.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@> wrote:
>
> I feel I have to comment, knowing that Bob monitors this list and
> will probably respond privately. I do not intend to really attack
> him, I have no idea of his motives but there are certain ethical
> issues which I consider over the line while many others do not.
>
> When I have consulted for a casino or worked for a vendor I will not
> play either at that casino or at any customers of the vendor I worked

If you have gone to Bob Dancer's classes you will see that he is honest, above board, and tells the truth. There is another concept that is very important as well. Promotions mean different things to different people.

I give you an example. I am scheduled to fly to Vegas in a few hours. I use a particular airline because their promotions and service are the best for me. They don't have first class so a promotion for first class on another airline (i.e, at check in it is often offered for $50 additional for this short trip) it might be a good value for some but unnecessary for others.

At the hotel a good non smoking room is fine for me rather than a suite occupied by a smoker. The meal comps offered are adequate for me but not possibly for someone else.

The machines offer 99.0%-99.8% that I plan to play, the slot club offers 0.20, one of the days of the stay is a coupon double points. For certain mini jackpots and higher one gets a card for a $10 min item. To me with the room and above I feel that I am definitely getting over 100% return. To a local I can see that this would be passed up. To a $5 player this casino probably doesn't have anything worthwhile.

···

--- On Mon, 5/4/09, Cranky <exgeek@comcast.net> wrote:
From: Cranky <exgeek@comcast.net>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Bob Dancer's CasinoGaming Column - 28 APR 2009
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 4:06 PM

      Could be that Bob D. is getting favorable plays as part of some compensation package for services performed. Play for your pay,

as it were. Thought I would put that spin on it anyway.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups. com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@. ..> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups. com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@> wrote:

>

> I feel I have to comment, knowing that Bob monitors this list and

> will probably respond privately. I do not intend to really attack

> him, I have no idea of his motives but there are certain ethical

> issues which I consider over the line while many others do not.

>

> When I have consulted for a casino or worked for a vendor I will not

> play either at that casino or at any customers of the vendor I worked

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I know he is consulting at those two places but I cannot believe that he has some "sinister" motive as it seems you are implying. Surely, whatever his strategy is, it must be for what he thinks is for the good of video poker in general. Am I misreading the situation?

-BB

yes you are misreading the situation...a bit pollyannish when faced with the facts...

But the point as phrased in this thread is whether he is trying to
sabotage the advantage player. Clearly not.

not sure how you came to this conclusion...seem like a
"burn the bridge behind you" tactic he is employing...