vpFREE2 Forums

Bob Dancer's CasinoGaming Column - 28 APR 2009

#21

It seems to me that the casino's that allow people to play at an advantage continually are foolish. If players aren't adding to profits why would they want them as customers? If I where a casino operator, I wouldn't have any games over 25 cents that where full pay or close to full pay. It just isn't good business. Think about it. But... The truth is that most players aren't winning players even playing full pay machines, even owning software that teaches you to play perfectly.

As someone pointed out, the casino's can and will alter their promotions, or slow the machines down. Do whatever it takes to stop serious advantage players from wanting to play at their casino. They will still be listed as having full pay machines. Average players will still take advantage of those machines and not worry about the speed because they aren't playing for income and can't play that fast anyway.
The casino's should want to eliminate people that make a living by playing in their casinos.

It shocks me that they have been giving away money for this long.

I would track what every player's cash in and out are. I would drive the consistent winning players from any casino I ran. They wouldn't get any promotions. They wouldn't get special mailers. They wouldn't get many comps. I'd only offer machines that where an advantage to the casino. You want 5 dollar job? Great. I'd damn well make sure you couldn't win long term on it. I would offer 100% machines that are only within .2 of 100 percent. Only at 1 dollar or lower. No bonus point promotions on those of course. Cash back? Free play? Not a chance.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can and should expect most for profit businesses to do these things eventually. (see harrah's)

Whether Mr. Dancer has some devious plot to cash in on his fame now is for others to judge. I doubt it.
I'm certain that he sees the writing on the wall and realizes that their just aren't that many good plays anymore. Especially at the levels he plays.

Then again, I really don't know much....

vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@...> wrote:

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If you have gone to Bob Dancer's classes you will see that he is honest, above board, and tells the truth. There is another concept that is very important as well. Promotions mean different things to different people.

I give you an example. I am scheduled to fly to Vegas in a few hours. I use a particular airline because their promotions and service are the best for me. They don't have first class so a promotion for first class on another airline (i.e, at check in it is often offered for $50 additional for this short trip) it might be a good value for some but unnecessary for others.

At the hotel a good non smoking room is fine for me rather than a suite occupied by a smoker. The meal comps offered are adequate for me but not possibly for someone else.

The machines offer 99.0%-99.8% that I plan to play, the slot club offers 0.20, one of the days of the stay is a coupon double points. For certain mini jackpots and higher one gets a card for a $10 min item. To me with the room and above I feel that I am definitely getting over 100% return. To a local I can see that this would be passed up. To a $5 player this casino probably doesn't have anything worthwhile.

--- On Mon, 5/4/09, Cranky <exgeek@...> wrote:
From: Cranky <exgeek@...>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Bob Dancer's CasinoGaming Column - 28 APR 2009
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 4:06 PM

      Could be that Bob D. is getting favorable plays as part of some compensation package for services performed. Play for your pay,

as it were. Thought I would put that spin on it anyway.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups. com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@ ..> wrote:

>

> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups. com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@> wrote:

> >

> > I feel I have to comment, knowing that Bob monitors this list and

> > will probably respond privately. I do not intend to really attack

> > him, I have no idea of his motives but there are certain ethical

> > issues which I consider over the line while many others do not.

> >

> > When I have consulted for a casino or worked for a vendor I will not

> > play either at that casino or at any customers of the vendor I worked

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#22

vpFREE FAQ "The Utopian Solution"

http://members.cox.net/vpfree/FAQ.htm#US

<a href="http://members.cox.net/vpfree/FAQ.htm#US">
http://members.cox.net/vpfree/FAQ.htm#US</a>

The Utopian Solution

Casinos should heavily promote video poker as a beatable game and
inventory many good games that can be beaten. This should
dramatically increase the number of video poker players (similar
to the blackjack explosion many years ago), and only a very small
percentage are likely to become winning players. The casinos
could accept (and promote) the small group of winning players as
loss leaders, and should realize increased profits on the lower
hold percentages because of a much greater volume of business.

In this utopian world, there would be a world-wide, free,
searchable database that included complete details (machine and
location info, Max-ER %, hold %, assigned theo % etc.) on every
video poker machine. It would include a listing of all casino
benefits (CB, BBC, comps etc.) and how they are calculated.
Casino hosts and discretionary comps would be eliminated and the
savings would be used to increase regular casino benefits.

···

On 5 May 2009 at 3:28, truushot1 wrote:

... I would drive the consistent winning players from any
casino I ran ...

#23

I can only guess what Bob Dancer's exact motivations are, but I want to think that he is perceptive and looking at the inevitable future of our game.

if you think that dancer is motivated by anything other than his own
profit and ego - let alone something as selfless and abstract as "the
inevitable future of the game" - i have a bridge to sell you.

The casino MUST continue to profit, they are not just going to throw money away. But with the ever-increasing knowledge of the player base, the casinos will be shooting themselves in the foot if they take out all good games and then no one plays.

yes - this is why slot machines have all but died out, as there are no
good games out there, and the increasingly educated player base
refuses to play. that 6:5 blackjack experiment was a dismal failure,
too - you never see people at those tables.

no, wait. i must be thinking of that alternate universe where most
gamblers are rational. in this universe, it's incredibly naive to
think that VP advantage plays must always exist.

cheers,

five

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On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 1:04 PM, bobbartop <bobbartop@yahoo.com> wrote:

#24

Oh c'mon, no need to be so sarcastic. lol Maybe I AM a little naive, I have already stated that I am "relatively" new to this game. I cannot argue with what you have just stated about players, and I will not try to argue with that. I live in California and believe me, I know how stupid the average slot player is. It's way worse here than in Vegas. But we've got Indian casinos that are isolated and have no competition for miles. Unless there is close competition this will probably always be the case.

I still think that the overall picture for the health of our game can only be helped by Bob Dancer's efforts to educate players, AND management. However, I certainly do want to hear what others have to say. I'll keep reading.

-BB

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, fivespot <fivespot55@...> wrote:

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 1:04 PM, bobbartop <bobbartop@...> wrote:
> I can only guess what Bob Dancer's exact motivations are, but I want to think that he is perceptive and looking at the inevitable future of our game.

if you think that dancer is motivated by anything other than his own
profit and ego - let alone something as selfless and abstract as "the
inevitable future of the game" - i have a bridge to sell you.

> The casino MUST continue to profit, they are not just going to throw money away. But with the ever-increasing knowledge of the player base, the casinos will be shooting themselves in the foot if they take out all good games and then no one plays.

yes - this is why slot machines have all but died out, as there are no
good games out there, and the increasingly educated player base
refuses to play. that 6:5 blackjack experiment was a dismal failure,
too - you never see people at those tables.

#25

Wow, much bashing going on . . . to me, Slower is still better then crappy paytables!!

#26

Now it sounds like you're on target! I would never dispute a claim such as: "Bob Dancer is a casino consultant and earns income from advising them how to make more money on VP". That's an indisputable fact.

What I disputed was that the specific article referenced contained any admission by BD that he got those specific machines slowed down.

On the topic in general: I would suggest that slowing down positive machines is likely a LOSING strategy for most casinos. That's little consolation since it's also a loss for us, but stay with me on this:

1. At any given time you have people playing a VP machine who are basically clueless. Their ER on FPDW is likely 0.96 or worse. If you're a slot manager, don't you want that person playing faster?

2. Even among knowledgeable players who know a basic strategy the majority are not accurate when playing at their maximum speed. Therefore, the casino should want knowledgeable recreational players to play as fast as possible too!

If you're honest with yourself you'll know this is true. If you play accurately at 800 HPH, but you're playing a lightning fast machine and start playing too fast you'll make mistakes, and they'll probably be serious enough to result in a negative ER.

3. The only players who benefit from the faster machines are the very small percentage who are both fast AND ACCURATE. My wife Chris is in this category (I'm not, I'm slower and play shorter sessions). Chris plays FPDW accurately at over 1300 HPH. You've probably seen someone play at 2000 HPH (some of you play that fast). To tell the truth, that's so fast that I can't always tell when watching them if they've picked the right plays or not!

Bottom line, I believe slowing down 100% machines is a mistake for casinos. They should be setting them to Warp Speed! This is especially true for games with lower ER than FPDW like DB, DDB and LD offered at the Half and Dollar level.

Mac
www.CasinoCamper.com

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "irdd3000" <irdd@...> wrote:

uhhh.....general knowledge that bd is currently consulting at eastside and south point...one of his current strategies is to slow down quarter machines to the level they aren't worth playing...

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mac McClellan" <mac_mcclellan@> wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "irdd3000" <irdd@> wrote:
> >
> > i am finding it interesting he basically admits he has accomplished slowing these machines down to such a degree they are no longer worth playing...
> >
>
> HUH? The article simply states that the machines are slow. How does that imply that Bob got them slowed down?
>
> Mac
> www.CasinoCamper.com
>

#27

true...but that wasn't the choice...

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lorrys67" <lorrys@...> wrote:

Wow, much bashing going on . . . to me, Slower is still better then crappy paytables!!

#28

Following are just some general comments on this whole thread.

First off, I don't know the motives of Dancer or anyone else. But I'm pretty sure the casinos aren't interested in making sure I or anyone else comes out ahead in the long run. So, I believe that's a given. Nor do I have a gripe about it either way, cause what else would they do?

Even though I had a VP jackpot just yesterday, I get as much satisfaction taking advantages of small wins. About a month ago I was walking by a (I forget the name of the machine) but someone had actually left the machine with 19.89 out of the 20 dollar guaranteed
hit win. Three bets and I had a 18+ dollar profit.

That makes me as happy as anything. I rather like playing the cat & mouse game with the casinos. (I am the mouse in this case, hah).

But other than grinding away at positive returns, I also enjoy figuring out how to make it appear I am spending more money in the casino than I actually am.

Would there be anything you could post in public that the casinos wouldn't eventually catch on to? I doubt it.

Here's something: Back when Sam's Town first went to their new electronic bonus play, the glitch in the system was that if you played an older reel machine, hitting the play button quickly after activating your bonus play caused the intial part of the bonus to not register against your account.

That was good at least two months, and then they fixed it. I love finding out that kind of stuff. Is it fair and ethical? Beats me.

Personally, I think one of the best win/win situation for the casinos and players is progressives that turn positive after a certain amount. The casinos still win, but a knowledgable player does too -- eventually.

#29

I agree with you that the casinsos would profit if they kept the machines faster than they do. But there might be a trade off against them if they went beyond a certain point and the small number players who really can play accurately at lightning quick speeds would all be hogging the consoles.

I also think the positive machines with much more complicated strategy than FPDW should be running at full speed (or ideally have the speed controls activated for custom control where possible)

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mac McClellan" <mac_mcclellan@...> wrote:

On the topic in general: I would suggest that slowing down positive machines is likely a LOSING strategy for most casinos. That's little consolation since it's also a loss for us, but stay with me on this:

#30

The casino's understand that 99.9% of players cannot play much faster then 300-400 hands and hour. So slowing the machines down doesn't cost them money. It makes them money. It stops the good players from playing or cuts their profitability where they don't want to play.

A smart casino would offer a lot of good paying machines even 100 or 101 percent machines. All they have to do is set them to only play at 400 or 500 hands per hour max. The "pros" won't play because it isn't profitable enough but the general public, the casino's true business sees 100 percent plus returns. They think that they can win and they can, but 99.9% of those that play those slow machines can't possibly play perfectly so they will still be losing players.

In some ways we should hope that those 100 percent machines are only slowed down and not removed. While we probably have to put in twice the hours, the chance to be a winning player will still exist.

I live in a state that doesn't have full pay machines so even really slow machines that are 100% are better then what is offered here.

Maybe Dancer actually understands these things and sees the choice between all machines being losers or full pay machines that are just slow.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "theprostitutionstate" <theprostitutionstate@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mac McClellan" <mac_mcclellan@> wrote:
> On the topic in general: I would suggest that slowing down positive machines is likely a LOSING strategy for most casinos. That's little consolation since it's also a loss for us, but stay with me on this:
>

I agree with you that the casinsos would profit if they kept the machines faster than they do. But there might be a trade off against them if they went beyond a certain point and the small number players who really can play accurately at lightning quick speeds would all be hogging the consoles.

I also think the positive machines with much more complicated strategy than FPDW should be running at full speed (or ideally have the speed controls activated for custom control where possible)